'Include Jewish refugees from Arab lands in talks'

[azurnoir]

With the Palestinian refugee issue one of the core issues expected to be at the center of the US's new diplomatic push, the foreign ministry is actively engaged in an effort to ensure that Jewish refuges who fled Arab lands are not forgotten.

Deputy Foreign Ministry Danny Ayalon, who is leading the push to include Jewish refugees in the core issue discussion with the US about refugees, said "it is vitally important to return this issue to the international agenda. It is a matter of justice, closure and righting a wrong."

Ayalon, whose father came to Israel after being forced out of Algeria, said this issue has "a practical as well as a moral aspect. The demands from the two sides are asymmetrical, the Palestinians talk of rights and justice , yet the rights and justice of the Jewish refugees from Arab lands have been ignored and suppressed for too long. "

In an article Ayalon wrote in September in The Jerusalem Post entitled "I am a refugee," Ayalon said that while some 750,000 Arabs fled or left Mandatory Palestine, there were some 900,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands.

"We are going to make an effort now to bring to the forefront the plight of the Jews from the Arab countries,” he said.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=199427

[CJvR]

1. Good way to start a war.

Undoing an ethnic cleansing some 60 years ago sounds like a good way to set off a few new wars.

[Ken Burch]

2. There needs to be an indendent historical inquiry as to the causes of the Mizrahi exodus

It's still not clear why that happened or who was responsible...whether, as the Israeli governments repeatedly insisted for propaganda purposes, the Arab and Muslim governments of the late 1940's and 1950's deliberately drove the Mizrahi out(which is questionable, at least as the sole cause), whether it was rank-and-file Arab and/or Muslim "street" hatred of the Mizrahi(which makes little sense, given that those same Arab and Muslim societies, only a few years prior to 1948, had made active efforts to protect the Jewish communities in their countries from capture by Nazis or small pro-Nazi elements, and had been so effective at this that the Mizrahi survived the Hitler era virtually unscathed, and also since the Mizrahi had been, prior to 1948, almost totally uninterested in Zionism and were certainly not in support of the expulsions of Palestinian Arabs) or whether the earliest incarnation of the Mossad and/or Shin Bet had staged secret raids in to Arab/Muslim countries in order to destroy Mizrahi synagogues and by so doing provoke a panic among the Mizrahi, thus causing them to flee when they didn't really need to).

There should be apologies to the Mizrahi for their having been made to feel then needed to flee their home countries, and compensation, but it's not clear who actually needs to provide said apologies and compensation).

[azurnoir]

3. regardless of 'who's fault' the issue of Mizrahi Jews

exodus* from countries such as Yemen, Morocco, Algeria ect is or what compensation is deserved this is not a part of the Israel Palestine 'debate' or is it in way shape or form the fault of the Palestinians and IMO to attempt to make it so is merely another stall/diversion tacit on the part of the Israel government that is attempting this charade

[shira]

4. This isn't just about peace between Israel/Palestine but also to end the Arab/Israeli conflict.

So the Jewish refugee issue is significant.

[Ken Burch]

7. Only if you accept unquestioningly the line that the Arab and Muslim countries

deliberately sought to drive the Mizrahi out, after living mainly peacefully with the Mizrahi for centuries and AFTER protecting the Mizrahi from the Nazis during World War II.

The Mizrahi issue has nothing to do with the Israeli/Palestinian dispute, and does not justify anything the Israeli government EVER did to Palestinians. Even YOU would have to admit that Palestinians themselves bear no blame whatsoever for the decision of the Mizrahi to leave their home countries.

[shira]

8. Here's something for you to read about those Jewish refugees....

http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/archives/00000702.html

Let me know what you think about it, after reading it.

And here's a WIKI article on it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_lands

[Ken Burch]

9. Nobody here was saying that life for the Mizrahi was "paradise", as the one link fatuously puts it

Just that it was a hell of a lot better than life was for the Ashkenazim in Europe(you'll notice that almost NO Mizrahi ended up in Hitler's death camps, and that the Arab/Muslim world protected their Jewish residents from the Third Reich, when they could easily have put all the Mizrahi on boats for Marseilles, where the Vichy French would have turned them straight over to the Gestapo). And in that link the author who was ostensibly refuting somebody else who credited Arabs and Muslims with relatively humane treatment of Jewish communities as compared to what European Christians allowed to happen to them spent a lot of his time AGREEING with the man he was supposedly refuting.

As to the Wikipedia link, these graphs in the middle of it hardly support the notion that there was a concerted Arab/Muslim effort to drive the Mizrahi out, OR the argument that life for the Mizrahi was uniquely hellish:

"According to the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, 'claims are made that Jews emigrated either because of the influence of Zionism or due to persecution by Arab countries; however, as no surveys were taken at the time and as the one does not contradict the other it is not possible to effectively separate the two causes.'"

"Historian Tom Segev stated: "Deciding to emigrate to Israel was often a very personal decision. It was based on the particular circumstances of the individual’s life. They were not all poor, or ‘dwellers in dark caves and smoking pits.’ Nor were they always subject to persecution, repression or discrimination in their native lands. They emigrated for a variety of reasons, depending on the country, the time, the community, and the person."

Were Arabs and Muslims SAINTLY towards the Mizrahi? No. But then again, they weren't saintly towards each other. The point is, life was not intolerable for the Mizrahi in the Arab/Muslim world, and the Arabs and Muslims were not Snidely Whiplash-like mustache-twirling villains towards the Mizrahi. There were just more or less decent to them, and far better to them than any European Christian country was in those years. I think we can safely assume that the Frank family would have survived the war easily had it managed to get to Cairo or Rabat.

[shira]

12. So Jews who weren't forced out of Arab lands should have stayed and 'taken it'?

Can you blame any of them for fleeing to Israel? And if so, where else were they to go? What other country would have taken them all in?

:shrug:

And how do you think minimizing or ignoring what happened to Jews in Arab lands will lead to true, lasting peace between Israel and the Arab world?

[Ken Burch]

13. I'm saying it's not clear that ARABS made the Mizrahi feel compelled to leave

It's not an unchallenged point that the Arabs themselves decided to drive them out, so we need an independent historical inquiry to work out who exactly WAS responsible.

Or whether, had the Mizrahi stayed, that they actually would have had that much to endure. You are invested in seeing the Arabs as mustache-twirling villains who suddenly turned into raving antisemites after centuries in which they didn't lower themselves to that European affliction.

What needs to be remembered is that the Mizrahi were never treated as badly as the Ashkenazim. Life before 1948 wasn't Utopia for them, but it wasn't Auschwitz or Belsen either. No Arab or Muslim country ever lowered itself to that, and none of them were complicit with Hitler's brutality.

And the Mizrahi may well need compensation, but it's not clear that it's the Arabs themselves who need to offer it. Finally, the treatment of the Mizrahi is not equivalent to the barbaric treatment of Palestinians, and what happened to the Mizrahi, no matter how much you might wish it to do so, does NOT vindicate what was done to the Palestinians. There isn't moral equivalency, and the theory of mutual population transfer has been discredited.

[shira]

14. The blame goes to Arab governments, not Arabs in general.

And no one is claiming Jews were sent to Arab death camps and gassed, nor are there claims they were treated like Palestinian refugees or that their plight justifies the Nakba, etc...

:eyes:

Out of 850,000 less than 8,000 remain in Arab lands today. Rougly 3/4 were absorbed by Israel. It's preposterous to minimize what they went through, before and after the state of Israel was established. State-sponsored anti-Jewish laws established in Germany were also in effect throughout Arab countries.

Here's a little more reading for you...
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/jewref.html

[Ken Burch]

15. No, not minimize, but don't imply that it's part of the state of hostilities.

What happened to the Mizrahi should not be part of a peace settlement. It can be addressed by other means. And we both know that Bibi's crowd is only bringing this up at this point because they want to use it as a delaying tactic, to use it to keep any Israeli/Palestinian settlement from being reached, and to allow the land theft and settlement expansion to go on until there's too little land left for a Palestinian state to have a chance to survive. And it's also, at some level, about appeasing Shas, a party that gets Mizrahi support but doesn't really care about the Mizrahi, but only about its own prestige.

Netanyahu has never given a rip about the Mizrahi.

[shira]

16. But you are minimizing what happened to these Jews in Arab lands...

In addition, you're trying to shift much of the blame for what happened to them onto Israel.

:eyes:

Anyone who knows anything about the conflict knows it's an Arab-Israeli conflict and that regional peace is required. This issue is part of the overall problem. There can be no genuine regional peace without this major injustice being addressed. For that matter, Arab nations also have to take responsibility for what they have done to Palestinian refugees and all their descendants the past 62 years.

If you don't think these issues are important, what kind of peace are you pushing for? Certainly nothing that would be stable or lasting.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. That 'issue' is not part of the overall problem when it comes to the Palestinian refugees...

Did you read the article Douglas posted a link to?

http://www.haaretz.com/hitching-a-ride-on-the-magic-carpet-1.97357

Also, do you think Israel has to take responsibility for what it did to the Palestinian refugees and all their descendants? If so, what do you think is required from Israel in taking responsibility? Apologies? Compensation? Or something else?

[shira]

19. Jewish refugees are part of UNRES 194, so it's a significant issue

I read Douglas' article, but did you read the one I linked to in #14?

No, I don't think Israel should take responsibility for Palestinian refugees. They didn't start the war, nor did they command most Palestinians to leave. Arab leaders are to blame.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=311586&mesg_id=311635
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=311586&mesg_id=311631

That said, I've repeatedly called for allowing the original refugees back in a genuine peace deal along the lines of the Geneva Initiative.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. No, they're not part of that Resolution at all...

Apart from the obvious fact that Resolution predates most of the movement of Mizrahi Jews to Israel, it specifically refers to Palestinians, as shown in the following:

'11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;'

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/361eea1cc08301c485256cf600606959/c758572b78d1cd0085256bcf0077e51a

You don't think Israel needs to take responsibility for what was done to the Palestinian refugees? It's the Arabs who have to, but when it comes to Mizrahi Jews moving to Israel, it's the Arabs who have to take responsibility? When it comes to expulsion and refusal to allow refugees to return, it doesn't matter one iota which side started the fight. There isn't an escape clause that says whoever didn't start the fight is absolved of all responsibility for people living on its territory. I strongly believe that without Israel acknowledging and taking responsibility for the wrongdoing that led to the flight/expulsion of Palestinians from what is now Israel, there will never be a genuine peace between equals....

Also, if Israel shouldn't take any responsibility for what it did to the Palestinians, why do you think the original refugees should be allowed to return? Is it because by now time's dragged on so there's probably about 50 of them left alive? What about their children? What about compensation for the property Israel took from the refugees? It's just that if Israel holds no responsibility, I'm not understanding why you'd think any need to return at all?

I asked you if you'd read the article Douglas posted (the one I posted at the bottom of the thread is well worth reading as well) because both articles raised some very important points that seem to be ignored when people start trying to equate Palestinian refugees to Mizrahi Jews for political point-scoring. I'll summarise the points:

• When this campaign was originally created, it was clear that the aim was not to support any Mizrahi Jews who had fled due to persecution and oppression, but to prevent the Right of Return for Palestinian refugees and to reduce the size of compensation that would eventually need to be paid by Israel.
  
  
• This campaign ignores the history of Zionism and pretends that many Mizrahi Jews weren't refugees, don't consider themselves to be refugees, and that they in fact moved to Israel voluntarily. Some of them were escaping oppressive situations, but they wanted to move to Israel.
  
  
• There is no similarity to the situation of Palestinian refugees. Palestinian refugees didn't want to leave and had nowhere to go. Their communities were destroyed and they didn't leave willingly. There was no equivalent of Israel waiting to welcome them the way there was for Mizrahi Jews. The only similarity is that some Mizrahi also have legitimate claims for property they lost, but that's not for Israel to take over and use as a weapon against the claims of Palestinian refugees. Mizrahi Jews have expressed their reluctance for the Israeli govt to pursue compensation on their behalf.
  
• One thing I don't understand at all is why Israel is demanding that the Palestinians recognise Mizrahi Jews as being refugees. What's it got to do with the Palestinians? Did something change overnight when countries started recognising Palestine as a state and Palestine has now become the place everyone goes to to get the official yay or nay on whether someone's a refugee or not?
  

[shira]

21. Sure they are. Jews were made refugees as a result of the 1948 war. UNRES 194 doesn't refer...

....to Arab refugees specifically, only "refugees". Neither does it refer to Israel as being solely responsible for these "refugees" but governments and authorities (plural), meaning Arab nations as well. UNRES 194 refers to the Arab-Israel conflict, not the Palestinian-Israel conflict so that's why this is an issue.

And of course it matters who started the war. If 7 Arab nations never declared war on Israel in 1948, there'd be no refugee crisis. During wars of that time there were 10's of millions of refugees, all of whom have been settled except for Palestinians. It wasn't the fault or responsibility of any nations to compensate those tens of millions of refugees and neither is it Israel's fault. Further, as history shows, the Arab nations who declared war on Israel are responsible for commanding most of the refugees to leave "temporarily" so that they could better destroy Israel. Since they commanded most of the refugees to leave that makes it their fault.

In the interest of peace, I think it's a goodwill gesture for Israel to allow the original refugees back if they as individuals want that. Israel is not responsible for their descendants - as descendants are not considered refugees in any other historical context. As for monetary compensation, it is estimated that the property lost by Jewish refugees is 10x more than that lost by Palestinians, so it looks like Arab governments owe a lot more.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. No, they're not. I posted the wording of the Res that shows it applies to Palestinian refugees...

Did you read the wording of the Resolution? You say it only refers to 'refugees'. Did you read the second paragraph? It specifically refers to the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees'. It's referring to Palestinian refugees. It would make absolutely no sense for the resolution to refer to the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees if they were actually talking about Jewish 'refugees' from Iraq or Egypt.

So, tell me how many Jews were made refugees in 1948. My understanding is that most Mizrahi Jews who moved to Israel went there after 1948, not before...

No, who started a war has absolutely no bearing on responsibility for civilians who fled and/or were expelled from territory druing a conflict. There's no clause for a side that doesn't start a war where they get to expel part of the population in their territory and then refuse to allow them and others who fled to return later.

The claim that all refugees but Palestinians have been resettled is incorrect. One example of a very long-running one is the Karen people on the Burma/Thai border. That's gone on for decades and they're sitting in camps not allowed to return to their homes. Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say: 'It wasn't the fault or responsibility of any nations to compensate those tens of millions of refugees and neither is it Israel's fault.' If yr saying that it's not Israel's fault that there's tens of millions of refugees globally, no-one is saying it is. No one country is responsible for the plight of all refugees globally. Many countries are responsible for various refugee issues...

History shows nothing of the sort when it comes to claims that Arab states commanded Palestinians to leave their home so they could destroy Israel. Why is it that that 'history' doesn't view Palestinians as being like all other humans and doing what humans do when conflict arrives on their doorstep and fleeing? Also, Israel expelled many Palestinians and continued to do so even after the war had ended. How is that the responsibility of the Arab states? Regardless, even if any of what you claimed was true, that didn't give Israel the right to refuse to allow the refugees to return to their homes after the war....

I see a massive problem with a supposed goodwill gesture that makes an offer to very elderly individuals that they can take up if they want to be separated from their families. It's a bit cynical and callous. Elderly people need their families and to put up an offer like this is ensuring that basically no-one would take it up, which I suspect would be the desired effect of such an offer....

As for monetary compensation of Palestinian refugees, again it's not making sense. Who estimated that the property lost by Jewish refugees is 10x more than that lost by Palestinians? And it still makes no sense as to why compensation to Palestinian refugees is being tied to any individual claims by Mizrahi Jews, who I've already told you, do not want the Israeli govt to puruse their claims for them...

Please read the summary I gave of the articles that Douglas and I posted in this thread. I'd be interested in getting yr response to each point that I raised...

[oberliner]

23. Yes, they are

The resolution says refugees.

[shira]

24. The Palestine refugees of 1948 included Jews ethnically cleansed by Jordan, for example,,,,

...from the Jewish quarter. Arab refugees are not specified, only refugees in general. Just like the government of Israel isn't singled out, but rather governments in general.

You're also wrong about most Palestinian refugees not being commanded to leave by Arab leadership. I supplied you 2 sources already, one of whom was Mahmoud Abbas, president of the PA. More proof is here...

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=567
http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=1102

Arab leadership is responsible for that, not Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. I totally agree with you on that, Az n/t

[Ken Burch]

6. I'm with you on that. There isn't an equivalency.

It goes without saying that the Palestinians weren't to blame for the Mizrahi ending up in Israel(that was the LAST thing the Palestinians would have wanted, for obvious reasons).

It also goes without saying that the Mizrahi Exodus does NOT justify the Nakba. The two are absolutely unrelated. The notion that those events somehow "balance out"(the cynical notion that it was just a case of reciprocal population transfer)is nothing but a hardline Zionist meme.

And it finally goes without saying that the Mizrahi and their transfer from their home countries to Israel should NOT be a part of the Israeli/Palestinian dispute, since it has nothing to do with that dispute.

The reasons for the type of inquiry I suggested are:

1)To establish the true historical facts about the Mizrahi exodus and to take the matter out of the realm of Israeli or Arab propaganda.

2)To work out who, exactly, SHOULD provide compensation and apologies to the Mizrahi(my own theory would be that these would need to be provided to the Mizrahi by some part of the Arab world, by the Israeli government itself if it is proved that that government intentionally launched operations to terrify the Mizrahi into fleeing Arab and Muslim countries when those countries weren't actually going to become dangerous places for Mizrahi to live, and to the U.S. for abetting the whole thing in the name of a regional "divide and conquer" strategy, and for continually aiding and abetting the worst choices of the Israeli government).

[Douglas Carpenter]

10. Hitching a ride on the magic carpet by Yehouda Shenhav from Haaretz

Hitching a ride on the magic carpet

Any analogy between Palestinian refugees and Jewish immigrants from Arab lands is folly in historical and political terms

By Yehouda Shenhav



An intensive campaign to secure official political and legal recognition of Jews from Arab lands as refugees has been going on for the past three years. This campaign has tried to create an analogy between Palestinian refugees and Mizrahi Jews, whose origins are in Middle Eastern countries - depicting both groups as victims of the 1948 War of Independence. The campaign's proponents hope their efforts will prevent conferral of what is called a "right of return" on Palestinians, and reduce the size of the compensation Israel is liable to be asked to pay in exchange for Palestinian property appropriated by the state guardian of "lost" assets.

The idea of drawing this analogy constitutes a mistaken reading of history, imprudent politics, and moral injustice.

snip: The organization's claims infuriated many Mizrahi Israelis who defined themselves as Zionists. As early as 1975, at the time of WOJAC's formation, Knesset speaker Yisrael Yeshayahu declared: "We are not refugees. came to this country before the state was born. We had messianic aspirations."

Shlomo Hillel, a government minister and an active Zionist in Iraq, adamantly opposed the analogy: "I don't regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists."

In a Knesset hearing, Ran Cohen stated emphatically: "I have this to say: I am not a refugee." He added: "I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee."

The opposition was so vociferous that Ora Schweitzer, chair of WOJAC's political department, asked the organization's secretariat to end its campaign. She reported that members of Strasburg's Jewish community were so offended that they threatened to boycott organization meetings should the topic of "Sephardi Jews as refugees" ever come up again. Such remonstration precisely predicted the failure of the current organization, Justice for Jews from Arab Countries to inspire enthusiasm for its efforts. "

snip: "Any reasonable person, Zionist or non-Zionist, must acknowledge that the analogy drawn between Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews is unfounded. Palestinian refugees did not want to leave Palestine. Many Palestinian communities were destroyed in 1948, and some 700,000 Palestinians were expelled, or fled, from the borders of historic Palestine. Those who left did not do so of their own volition.

In contrast, Jews from Arab lands came to this country under the initiative of the State of Israel and Jewish organizations. Some came of their own free will; others arrived against their will. Some lived comfortably and securely in Arab lands; others suffered from fear and oppression.

The history of the "Mizrahi aliyah" (immigration to Israel) is complex, and cannot be subsumed within a facile explanation. Many of the newcomers lost considerable property, and there can be no question that they should be allowed to submit individual property claims against Arab states (up to the present day, the State of Israel and WOJAC have blocked the submission of claims on this basis).

The unfounded, immoral analogy between Palestinian refugees and Mizrahi immigrants needlessly embroils members of these two groups in a dispute, degrades the dignity of many Mizrahi Jews, and harms prospects for genuine Jewish-Arab reconciliation. "

link to full article:

http://www.haaretz.com/hitching-a-ride-on-the-magic-carpet-1.97357

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Thanks for posting that, Douglas. I was looking for it earlier on...

I thought I had it bookmarked but I didn't, so thanks for posting it :)

[Violet_Crumble]

18. The problem with Israel's Jewish 'refugee' initiative

The Israeli government's demand that Palestinians recognise exiled Arab Jews as 'refugees' is political point-scoring

Rachel Shabi
guardian.co.uk
Thursday 16 December 2010 11.00 GMT

While the US has given up pressing for a freeze on illegal settlement building, one Israeli minister has been cranking up the volume on an issue he apparently considers more pressing. The deputy foreign minister, Danny Ayalon, recently launched a new initiative to demand that Palestinians "recognise Jews who exiled from Arab lands as refugees".

Ayalon's initiative is in alliance with Justice for Jews from Arab Countries (JJAC), whose mission is to put this issue on the international agenda.

The idea itself has been in circulation pretty much since the 1970s when the Palestinian refugee issue was beginning to gain traction within the international community. Since then, it has resurfaced pretty much whenever there are peace talks – hence its return during this latest, wilted round of exchanges between Israeli and Palestinian negotiators.

As Ayalon puts it, the initiative is explicitly a response to the Palestinian demand for a "right of return to the land of Israel". The reasoning is: if Palestinians think of themselves as refugees, forced to leave their homes in the tectonic shifts that created Israel in 1948, so, too, were the Jews exiting Arab lands in the same seismology.

There are all manner of problems with this formulation. First, many Middle Eastern Jews dislike being called refugees. Some reject this label because they left Arab lands out of a pioneering desire to relocate to what would become Israel; some say they were uprooted from Arab lands, either by agitating Zionist emissaries, or by the shockwaves that Zionism sent through the Middle East.

Another thorn in the side of this argument is that Israel was created explicitly as a homeland for Jews, while for Palestinians, the homeland is the place from which they were exiled. That means there is no point in lauding Israel for "absorbing" the "Jewish refugees" from Arab lands, while chiding Arab countries for not doing the same with Palestinians – which seems to be the Jewish refugee claim's secondary reasoning.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/16/israel-palestinian-refugee