Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Palestinians to ask for UN recognition if peace talks fail, says Abbas

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU
 
shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 12:36 AM
Original message
Palestinians to ask for UN recognition if peace talks fail, says Abbas
'During a meeting in Ramallah with members of the Council for Peace and Security (who include former top IDF officers ), Abbas declared that the PA intends to work toward the establishment of a Palestinian state, and to win Israeli recognition for such a state. However, he indicated, if no accord is reached between the two sides, and if serious talks do not resume, the PA will turn to the UN General Assembly in September and request recognition of an independent Palestinian state.

Asked about possible scenarios following such a UN vote, Abbas claimed he is deliberately maintaining ambiguity on this issue. Yet, he said, "should we return empty-handed, we will convene a meeting of the Palestinian leadership and decide what to do. We have autonomous rule, but we don't have independence. There is and isn't occupation. The can come at any moment. They can invade our territories. They can do anything. They can even stop me, as head of the PA, from going home."

"So what are we supposed to do?" he asked. "What should be our answer, if we have lost all hope? I can't respond to that."

Abbas reiterated that the PA will only turn to the UN General Assembly if it runs out of all other options.

"If you do not want negotiations, and don't want an accord, then what are we supposed to do?" he said. "We have imposed order and security here for the past four years, and things are stable now: There is law and order, the economy is progressing, life is normal everywhere in the West Bank. Please, you must take advantage of the opportunity to continue . If don't want , then we will leave. We will leave."'

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/palestinians-to-ask-for-un-recognition-if-peace-talks-fail-says-abbas-1.353178
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. They might as well
Edited on Thu Mar-31-11 12:54 AM by Ken Burch
The Israeli government won't allow them anything but a pathetic, helpless essentially landless ministate-while insisting on the right to shut that state down at will.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. The UN is not going to get them anything better. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Why do you think Israel is worried about it then? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Because it just inflames people without solving anything.
Edited on Thu Mar-31-11 08:37 AM by hack89
the UN has said that the borders of Israel have to be fixed through negotiations. If the UN recognizes a Palestine without fixed borders I don't see exactly how anything meaningful has been accomplished. So now the country of Palestine has to still negotiate with Israel. It also has to be more circumspect about attacks on Israel - given the mood and actions of Hamas it makes war much more likely and legal. International law is clear on sovereign countries attacking other sovereign countries.

Also of concern to the Palestinians is that is just as likely to provoke civil war than accomplish anything meaningful - Hamas and Fatah have yet to reconcile. UN recognition would simply pour gas on that internal spat. I would imagine that would concern Israel.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Im not sure how that stacks up
against the fact that Israel is clearly not interested in negotiations at the moment, and refuses to allow Palestinians their own state.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Remember, Israel froze construction for 10 months while the PA refused to negotiate...
Edited on Thu Mar-31-11 07:35 PM by shira
...for 9.5 of those 10 months. They were pressured to come to the table in the last weeks...

So you've got it backwards.

The Palestinians could have agreed to Olmert's offer in 2008, so Israel cannot be said to be refusing to allow Palestinians their own state.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Olmert's offer was in response to the Palestinians offer
which was revealed in the Palestine Papers.

The Olmert offer did not propose withdrawing any significant settlement, even Ariel, which would severely impede the contiguity of any Palestinian state, and which should be given back to the Palestinians, according to the Geneva accord which you claim to support.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Post Script to ‘Palestine Papers’:Guardian grossly misrepresented so-called Palstinian “concessions"
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 03:05 PM by shira
http://cifwatch.com/2011/03/27/post-script-to-‘palestine-papers’-guardian-grossly-misrepresented-so-called-palestinian-concessions/

The Palestinians made no such offer, but once again they rejected an offer that this time would have led to a 100% land deal (with swaps) based on the 1967 borders.

You're wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Absolutely false...
Olmert's offer was not a 100% land swap deal. His napkin map would keep 10% of the West Bank, in exchange for 5% of lightly populated farmland to the south.

The "100% claim" is a fraud that arrives at the figure of 100% by simply excluding East Jerusalem.

http://english.aljazeera.net/palestinepapers/2011/01/2011122114239940577.html

The Palestine Papers refer to the offer of 10 000 refugees, which Saeb Erekat says was "accepted by Olmert":-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers-documents/4660

Another completely bullshit post from you. What a surprise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. You contradicted yourself. First, it's not a 100% land deal but then it is...
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 04:21 PM by shira
As to the 10,000 refugees - that's complete crap. Please cite specifically from the papers (the exact page) the quote itself, and the date.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. I have no interest in playing your stupid little games...
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 10:14 PM by shaayecanaan
you would have noticed that I respond to you rather sparingly these days.

The date of the meeting is listed at the top of the minute, 16 June 2009. The quote from Erekat stating that Olmert accepted 10 000 refugees appears at page 5.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers-documents/4660
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Do you have any interest in facts? Or just bullshit?
Edited on Sat Apr-02-11 06:00 AM by shira
Let's clear up once and for all what Erekat said about those 10,000 refugees Olmert "agreed" to...

SE: Olmert said 1,000 refugees over 10 years. Abu Mazen said “are you joking.”
http://transparency.aljazeera.net/en/document/4625

You've been duped.

The PA didn't concede anything, nor did they offer a damn thing to Israel in some magnanimous proposal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #31
42. Before I respond...
you have cited one of the Palestine papers as it appears on the al Jazeera website. Does this mean that you now regard the documents as authentic? You do have a history of moving the goalposts in this regard...



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Olmert's own Foreign Minister opposed the Olmert offer- "the freeze" was one time only and limited
and it came with an absolute pledge that construction would soon resume soon.



Netanyahu: Settlement freeze is 'one-time, temporary' move


Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Tuesday that a 10-month freeze of new construction in West Bank settlements was only a "one-time, temporary" move, in an apparent bid to ease settlers' fears.

"We shall resume building once the moratorium is over," Netanyahu told a conference organized by the financial newspaper Calcalist.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/netanyahu-settlement-freeze-is-one-time-temporary-move-1.3042






Livni tells France's Kouchner: I oppose Olmert's peace plan


Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told her French counterpart Bernard Kouchner that she opposes the agreement in principle that outgoing prime minister Ehud Olmert has offered Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

"I do not believe in far-reaching proposals and an attempt to expedite matters, especially in light of the political situation," Livni, the prime minister-designate, told Kouchner on Sunday.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/livni-tells-france-s-kouchner-i-oppose-olmert-s-peace-plan-1.285402





Netanyahu: I won't carry out an Olmert-Abbas peace deal if elected


Opposition Chairman Benjamin Netanyahu has said if he is elected prime minister, he won't carry out any peace deal with the Palestinians reached by the current Israeli leader, Ehud Olmert, the Makor Rishon daily reported on Thursday.

Polls show that if elections were held today, Netanyahu would handily beat both Olmert and the Labor Party's chairman, Defense Minister Ehud Barak.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3533242,00.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. The PA refused to negotiate during the 10 month freeze. Why?
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 03:24 PM by shira
They squandered 10 months of negotiations when no other Israeli government had ever frozen construction for such a long period of time.

Why?

Abbas rejected a 100% land deal (with swaps) that would have granted the Palestinians a state and ended the occupation and settlements. As an alleged advocate for peace, you should be disappointed at Abbas, but you're not - why? Abbas decided to prolong the conflict, the occupation, and settlements and you have no problem with that?

Lastly, it's irrelevant that Livni and Netanyahu opposed Olmert's proposal. Had Abbas accepted, world pressure to see the conflict finally resolved would have made Livni/Netanyahu irrelevant. There's simply no way Israel would not honor the agreement.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. there was no freeze, Netanyahu had already publicly ruled out the removal of one single
settler and promised the settlers that the whole matter was one time only and expansion would begin again soon and no limited freeze would ever again be repeated. With Livni publicly opposing any agreement - it could not possibly been approved by the cabinet - especially on the eve of a general election - just as there is no possibility of the current Israeli cabinet approving any plausible arrangement even if by some miracle Netanyahu had an epiphany.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. And now there was no freeze at all. Great....
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 04:25 PM by shira
So what do you think of the PA rejecting peace deals in 2000 and 2008 that would have ended the occupation/settlements and granted Palestinians their own state?

You agree with the PA and believe the status quo is better than accepting either offer?

Or will you just ignore the question again?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. they did not reject a peace deal in 2000 and 2008 and you know that
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 08:41 PM by Douglas Carpenter
There never was a real offer if there was no possibility whatsoever of getting it through the Israeli cabinet. There never was a plausible offer either in 2000, 2001 or 2008 that had any possibility whatsoever of getting it through the Israeli cabinet. But you already knew that. The so-called Israeli acceptance of the Clinton Parameters of 23, December 2000 came with 22 pages of qualifications. To call 22 pages of qualifications and reservations an acceptances is pure sophistry. The Taba Talks ended when the Israeli delegation walked out on the eve of Israeli general elections on 28 January, 2001 with Barak unilaterally ending the discussions and later repudiating the offers discussed at Taba. No one rejected anything! The delegations held public press conferences to express their desire to continue. There was no rejection! Meanwhile Ariel Sharon was elected by a landslide with a promise that he would not honor any agreements. These are all matters of public record.



July/August 2002

The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations


By Seth Ackerman

link:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113


The seemingly endless volleys of attack and retaliation in the Middle East leave many people wondering why the two sides can't reach an agreement. The answer is simple, according to numerous commentators: At the Camp David meeting in July 2000, Israel "offered extraordinary concessions" (Michael Kelly, Washington Post, 3/13/02), "far-reaching concessions" (Boston Globe, 12/30/01), "unprecedented concessions" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). Israel’s "generous peace terms" (L.A. Times editorial, 3/15/02) constituted "the most far-reaching offer ever" (Chicago Tribune editorial, 6/6/01) to create a Palestinian state. In short, Camp David was "an unprecedented concession" to the Palestinians (Time, 12/25/00).

But due to "Arafat's recalcitrance" (L.A. Times editorial, 4/9/02) and "Palestinian rejectionism" (Mortimer Zuckerman, U.S. News & World Report, 3/22/02), "Arafat walked away from generous Israeli peacemaking proposals without even making a counteroffer" (Salon, 3/8/01). Yes, Arafat "walked away without making a counteroffer" (Samuel G. Freedman, USA Today, 6/18/01). Israel "offered peace terms more generous than ever before and Arafat did not even make a counteroffer" (Chicago Sun-Times editorial, 11/10/00). In case the point isn't clear: "At Camp David, Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians an astonishingly generous peace with dignity and statehood. Arafat not only turned it down, he refused to make a counteroffer!" (Charles Krauthammer, Seattle Times, 10/16/00).

This account is one of the most tenacious myths of the conflict. Its implications are obvious: There is nothing Israel can do to make peace with its Palestinian neighbors. The Israeli army’s increasingly deadly attacks, in this version, can be seen purely as self-defense against Palestinian aggression that is motivated by little more than blind hatred.

Locking in occupation

To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department).

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But /b] it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel.

Violence or negotiation?

The Camp David meeting ended without agreement on July 25, 2000. At this point, according to conventional wisdom, the Palestinian leader's "response to the Camp David proposals was not a counteroffer but an assault" (Oregonian editorial, 8/15/01). "Arafat figured he could push one more time to get one more batch of concessions. The talks collapsed. Violence erupted again" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). He "used the uprising to obtain through violence...what he couldn't get at the Camp David bargaining table" (Chicago Sun-Times, 12/21/00).

But the Intifada actually did not start for another two months. In the meantime, there was relative calm in the occupied territories. During this period of quiet, the two sides continued negotiating behind closed doors. Meanwhile, life for the Palestinian population under Israeli occupation went on as usual. On July 28, Prime Minister Barak announced that Israel had no plans to withdraw from the town of Abu Dis, as it had pledged to do in the 1995 Oslo II agreement (Israel Wire, 7/28/00). In August and early September, Israel announced new construction on Jewish-only settlements in Efrat and Har Adar, while the Israeli statistics bureau reported that settlement building had increased 81 percent in the first quarter of 2000. Two Palestinian houses were demolished in East Jerusalem, and Arab residents of Sur Bahir and Suwahara received expropriation notices; their houses lay in the path of a planned Jewish-only highway (Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 11-12/00).

The Intifada began on September 29, 2000, when Israeli troops opened fire on unarmed Palestinian rock-throwers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, killing four and wounding over 200 (State Department human rights report for Israel, 2/01). Demonstrations spread throughout the territories. Barak and Arafat, having both staked their domestic reputations on their ability to win a negotiated peace from the other side, now felt politically threatened by the violence. In January 2001, they resumed formal negotiations at Taba, Egypt.

The Taba talks are one of the most significant and least remembered events of the "peace process." While so far in 2002 (1/1/02-5/31/02), Camp David has been mentioned in conjunction with Israel 35 times on broadcast network news shows, Taba has come up only four times--never on any of the nightly newscasts. In February 2002, Israel's leading newspaper, Ha'aretz (2/14/02), published for the first time the text of the European Union's official notes of the Taba talks, which were confirmed in their essential points by negotiators from both sides.

"Anyone who reads the European Union account of the Taba talks," Ha'aretz noted in its introduction, "will find it hard to believe that only 13 months ago, Israel and the Palestinians were so close to a peace agreement." At Taba, Israel dropped its demand to control Palestine's borders and the Jordan Valley. The Palestinians, for the first time, made detailed counterproposals--in other words, counteroffers--showing which changes to the 1967 borders they would be willing to accept. The Israeli map that has emerged from the talks shows a fully contiguous West Bank, though with a very narrow middle and a strange gerrymandered western border to accommodate annexed settlements.

In the end, however, all this proved too much for Israel's Labor prime minister. On January 28, Barak unilaterally broke off the negotiations. "The pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted," Ben-Ami said (New York Times, 7/26/01).

Settlements off the table

In February 2001, Ariel Sharon was elected prime minister of Israel. Sharon has made his position on the negotiations crystal clear. "You know, it's not by accident that the settlements are located where they are," he said in an interview a few months after his election (Ha'aretz, 4/12/01).


They safeguard the cradle of the Jewish people's birth and also provide strategic depth which is vital to our existence.

The settlements were established according to the conception that, come what may, we have to hold the western security area , which is adjacent to the Green Line, and the eastern security area along the Jordan River and the roads linking the two. And Jerusalem, of course. And the hill aquifer. Nothing has changed with respect to any of those things. The importance of the security areas has not diminished, it may even have increased. So I see no reason for evacuating any settlements.


Meanwhile, Ehud Barak has repudiated his own positions at Taba, and now speaks pointedly of the need for a negotiated settlement "based on the principles presented at Camp David" (New York Times op-ed, 4/14/02).

In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02).

Ariel Sharon responded by declaring that "a return to the 1967 borders will destroy Israel" (New York Times, 5/4/02). In a commentary on the Arab plan, Ha'aretz's Bradley Burston (2/27/02) noted that the offer was "forcing Israel to confront peace terms it has quietly feared for decades."

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113



regarding the Taba Talks:

Contrary to popular mythology in some circles, Arafat did NOT walk out of Taba..The Israeli negotiating team under instruction from the Prime Minister Ehud Barak unilaterally ended the talks in January 2001 because of the election which Ariel Sharon was predicted to win by a landslide with an absolute promise to reject any agreement with the Palestinians reached at Taba. These facts are not in dispute among sane and rational people.

Here is the link to the European Union notes - known as the Morantinos documents which all sides have confirmed to be a reliable record of what occurred at Taba, Egypt in January 2001.

http://prrn.mcgill.ca/research/papers/moratinos.htm

snip:"Beilin stressed that the Taba talks were not halted because they hit a crisis, but rather because of the Israeli election ."

snip:"This document, whose main points have been approved by the Taba negotiators as an accurate description of the discussions, casts additional doubts on the prevailing assumption that Ehud Barak "exposed Yasser Arafat's true face." It is true that on most of the issues discussed during that wintry week of negotiations, sizable gaps remain. Yet almost every line is redolent of the effort to find a compromise that would be acceptable to both sides. It is hard to escape the thought that if the negotiations at Camp David six months earlier had been conducted with equal seriousness, the intifada might never have erupted. And perhaps, if Barak had not waited until the final weeks before the election, and had instead sent his senior representatives to that southern hotel earlier, the violence might never have broken out."

-----------

Here is a neutral and dispassionate examination of what led to the break down at Camp David in 2000 and Taba in January 2001:

Vision of Collision: What Happened at Camp David and Taba" by Professor Jeremy Pressman:

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publication/322/visions_in_collision.html?breadcrumb=%2Fexperts%2F355%2Fjeremy_pressman

.....


Sharon calls peace talks a campaign ploy by Barak
Likud leader says he won't comply with latest agreements


January 28, 2001
Web posted at: 1:42 p.m. EST (1842 GMT)

"Sharon leads Barak by 16 to 20 percentage points in opinion polls that have changed little in recent weeks."

link:

http://premium.europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/02/06/mideast.palestinians.02/index.html

"Ehud Barak is endangering the state of Israel to obtain a piece of paper to help him in the election," Sharon said at a campaign stop Saturday. "Once the people of Israel find out what is in the paper and what Barak has conceded, he won't get any more votes."

link:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/01/27/mideast.01/index.html

.












Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. Here's Arafat regretting that he rejected Taba...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jun/22/israel

The Clinton Parameters made it through the Israeli Cabinet.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

=======

So once again, do you blame Arafat/Abbas for rejecting a deal that would have ended the conflict more than a decade ago, thereby ending the settlements and occupation forever?

Or do you find it impossible to ever criticize Palestinian leadership?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. that is very misleading
Edited on Sat Apr-02-11 06:26 AM by Douglas Carpenter
The Clinton parameters came with 22 pages of reservations and qualifications. That was not a simple acceptance. But you knew that.

To know what happened at Taba - there are the notes known as the Moratinos Document:

http://prrn.mcgill.ca/research/papers/moratinos.htm

snip:"Beilin stressed that the Taba talks were not halted because they hit a crisis, but rather because of the Israeli election ."

President Clinton had boasted that he was "the most pro-Israeli President since Truman". It was under his administration and following the signing of Oslo in 1993 that Israel almost doubled its settlers in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Neither he nor Dennis Ross were neutral observers on this matter.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Clinton admitted that Israel accepted and the PLO did not.
Edited on Sat Apr-02-11 06:53 AM by shira
Despite some provisions on Jerusalem being contrary to the election promises of Prime Minister Ehud Barak, the Parameters received wide support in the Israeli cabinet, which voted to accept them, with Cabinet Minister, Roni Milo, being the only one to resign over his objection to the Cabinet's approval of the plan. Although he chose to accept the plan, Prime Minister Barak sent Clinton a 20-page letter of "reservations". The two main points were that he "would not sign any document that transfers sovereignty on the Temple Mount to the Palestinians", and that "no Israeli prime minister will accept even one refugee on the basis of the right of return."<2> Minor reservations were also made with regard to security arrangements, deployment areas, and control over passages. In a phone conversation with Clinton, Prime Minister Barak also demanded that Israel be allowed to retain sovereignty over the "sacred basin" - the whole area outside the Old City that includes the City of David and the Tombs of the Prophets on the road to the Mount of Olives, which was not mentioned in the Parameters.<3>

According to Clinton and Ross, Israel's reservations were "within" the Parameters, and Arafat's reservations were "outside" them, and Arafat never formally accepted each of the conditions contained in the parameters.<4>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clinton_Parameters#Acceptance


As mentioned before, Arafat regretted that he rejected the Parameters.

You couldn't be more wrong.

=======

So why is it you guys appear incapable of ever criticizing Palestinian leadership? In this case Arafat, for perpetuating the conflict, occupation, settlements...?



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. it is interesting that only outgoing Israeli governments that have no chance of winning reelection
make plausible offers when the incoming government publicly pledges that they will absolutely not honor any agreement. So they start seriously negotiating only when there is absolutely no possibility whatsoever of the agreement actually being carried out.



"Moratinos Document" - The peace that nearly was at Taba


Source: Ha'aretz, February 14, 2002

by Akiva Eldar

It is hard to escape the thought that if the negotiations at Camp David six months earlier had been conducted with equal seriousness, the intifada might never have erupted. And perhaps, if Barak had not waited until the final weeks before the election, and had instead sent his senior representatives to that southern hotel earlier, the violence might never have broken out.

http://prrn.mcgill.ca/research/papers/moratinos.htm



CNN
January 28, 2001
Web posted at: 1:42 p.m. EST (1842 GMT)
"Sharon leads Barak by 16 to 20 percentage points in opinion polls that have changed little in recent weeks."



Would Sharon honor potential agreement?



Barak's challenger for the prime minister's post, hard-line, hawkish Likud party chairman Ariel Sharon -- who holds a commanding lead in the polls -- has said he would not honor any agreement worked out between Barak's negotiators and the Palestinians.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/01/27/mideast.01/index.html





Netanyahu: I won't carry out an Olmert-Abbas peace deal if elected



Opposition Chairman Benjamin Netanyahu has said if he is elected prime minister, he won't carry out any peace deal with the Palestinians reached by the current Israeli leader, Ehud Olmert, the Makor Rishon daily reported on Thursday.

Polls show that if elections were held today, Netanyahu would handily beat both Olmert and the Labor Party's chairman, Defense Minister Ehud Barak.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3533242,00.html





Livni tells France's Kouchner: I oppose Olmert's peace plan


Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told her French counterpart Bernard Kouchner that she opposes the agreement in principle that outgoing prime minister Ehud Olmert has offered Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

"I do not believe in far-reaching proposals and an attempt to expedite matters, especially in light of the political situation," Livni, the prime minister-designate, told Kouchner on Sunday.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3533242,00.html






Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Still avoiding the obvious - the PLO rejected peace offers that would end occupation/settlements
Edited on Sat Apr-02-11 07:30 AM by shira
Palestine could be celebrating it's 10th anniversary free of occupation and settlements but you're incapable of criticizing Palestinian leadership for choosing to keep the conflict going.

You probably believe Arafat and Abbas made "wise" decisions to reject each offer.

That's "pro-peace" for you...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. you are engaging in pure sophistry
There was no possibility of any agreements even being carried out with the pledges of the incoming governments. Israeli governments only negotiate seriously when that is the scenario. This is getting ridiculous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Please. The PA could have agreed to each offer....
Edited on Sat Apr-02-11 08:59 AM by shira
...and that would have placed ENORMOUS international pressure on incoming Israeli governments to honor the previous government's commitment (which all democracies do anyway).

You're incapable of placing any blame whatsoever on Palestinian intransigence and perpetuation of the conflict.

Here's a better question for you....

Would YOU have accepted each deal that would have forever ended the conflict, occupation, and settlements?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. would YOU have continued expanding, expanding and expanding settlements
if you had ANY intentions of removing them and making a long term peace agreement? Would YOU have waited to the very last minute when there was no possibility of an agreement to be carried out if YOU had any intentions of negotiating a real peace?

Israel almost doubled its settlement expansion during the Oslo period from 1993 to 2000 and used the whole Oslo process to cut up and dissect the Occupied Territories into multiple cantons - restricting movement and making life far more difficult and living stands far lower for the vast majority of Palestinians than it was even before Oslo.

Mr. Netanyahu has already made it absolutely clear that there never be any more freezes on settlement expansion or ever the withdrawal of any settlers - ever - and the Netanyahu government has publicly promised the radical settler movement that any limited freeze on settlement expansion is one time only and will never ever again be repeated - ever.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621.html?nclick_check=1#axzz15wf2sYiy


“there is no Palestinian state, even though the Israelis speak of one.” Instead, he said, “there will be a settler state and a Palestinian built-up area, divided into three sectors, cut by fingers of Israeli settlement and connected only by narrow roads."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/world/middleeast/11road.html?_r=12&pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=22948d4799a34065&ex=1187496000&emc=eta1&oref

.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Yet another evasion (look over there). So you would have refused the 2000 and 2008 offers? n/t
Edited on Sat Apr-02-11 10:34 AM by shira
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whosinpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Remember - they did not
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 03:31 PM by whosinpower
they SLOWED it down - it was not a complete freeze. Netanyahu refused to include East Jerusalem.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. The point is the Palestinians aren't interested in negotiating a settlement...
It's quite obvious they want everything without having to make peace.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whosinpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Nothing is obvious
It is easy to say Israel froze settlements - except they didn't. They did not freeze existing projects - they did not freeze anything in East Jerusalem. They did not freeze building schools,
synagogues, kindergartens and public buildings.

Tell me something Shira....if Netanyahu was serious about a peace settlement, serious about defining borders, dealing with East Jerusalem, serious about a final status solution.....WHY ON EARTH WOULD HE CONTINUE TO BUILD KINDERGARTENS IN AREAS UNDER DISPUTE????? WHY WOULD YOU BUILD A KINDERGARTEN IN AN AREA THAT YOU MUST LATER VACATE???!!???

His attempt at a freeze was nothing more than an insult and slap in the face of Abbas. You know it. Obama knows it. The whole freaking world knows it. It is no wonder Abbas did not come to the table for 9 months.

SO NO - IT IS NOT OBVIOUS. What is obvious is your desire to obscure.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. The 10 month moratorium was farther than any other Israeli leader has gone since 1967...
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 05:22 PM by shira
That cannot be understated.

My question to you is why Israel should be required to freeze certain settlement areas that any rational person knows will end up as a part of Israel in any reasonably negotiated settlement?

Olmert didn't freeze any settlements but that didn't stop him from making a genuine offer Abbas rejected out of hand. Abbas and the PA negotiated without a freeze then, so why now? Maybe you're wrong and Abbas isn't interested in negotiations. If he can't accept Olmert's offer, what's the point going through the motions again? He's not interested in a realistic 2 state peace deal.

Do you think Abbas made the right decision rejecting Olmert's 2008 offer? Remember that in 2002, Arafat regretted not accepting the Taba deal of 2000...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jun/22/israel

Olmert's deal was even better for Palestinians.

So what do you make of Abbas' rejection?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whosinpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Really?
I would of thought Olmert's offer went further than any other leader....you know....the one that Netanyahu campaigned against.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/construction-in-west-bank-settlements-booming-despite-declared-freeze-1.265550

snip - According to Etkes and Ofran, the building boom began while the United States was demanding a construction freeze in the settlements. The local authorities issued a great number of new construction permits, mostly to isolated and relatively small settlements, but also in the larger settlements.

Meanwhile, according to data collected by Peace Now, construction authorized in the territories within the framework of the government-ordered freeze exceeds that which has been permitted in Israel. A total of 1,167 housing units have been permitted in the settlements per 100,000 citizens, while in Israel only 836 housing units have been built per that number of citizens.

Even Lieberman is smart enough to call it what it is - Dear Shira. Sidestepping any real freeze.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. No other Israeli leader froze anything for 10 months....
Can you answer my question please? Do you have a problem with Abbas rejecting Olmert's offer? That would have ended the conflict, occupation, settlements...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whosinpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. You believe that Netanyahu slowing down - er
Actually speeding up the settlement building permits given the US pressure for a settlement moratorium and then slowing down some,but not all settlement growth was a grander gesture than Olmert's? Wow. Is this a joke? The numbers speak for themselves - and it isn't pretty. Building permits inside Israel proper were less per capita than in the West Bank during the ongoing pressure for a moratorium.....and building after the moratorium ended QUADRUPLED in size and scope. It is almost as if Israel is emptying itself all into the West Bank, frantic to make realities on the ground impossible for any palistinian state...this goes way way way beyond natural growth. And THIS is a bigger gesture than the offer Olmert made to Abbas? Yeah - I guess it is....it is a big F_____K you all wrapped up in myopic two faced earnestness capped off with eager hip thrusts.


We have been over this time and time again - it would not have mattered if Abbas had accepted the offer as Olmert was in political suicide mode and had absolutely no collateral to see it through - and Netanyahu took full advantage of the situation and campaigned against the offer. What does that say? I know you have chastised Abbas for not being forthcoming with the palistinians exactly what they are negotiating - as per the palistinian papers revealed....but let us be honest now....the israeli's would not have accepted the Olmert offer either. That is fact. They didn't.

And if you think Abbas accepting Olmert's offer would have been the magic bullet - I have a great bridge to sell you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I thought I was clear...
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 08:11 PM by shira
I'm not saying Netanyahu has gone farther than Olmert, only that unlike any other Israeli PM he managed to pull off freezing settlements.

I don't see how you can possibly claim "Israel is emptying itself all into the West Bank". Why the hyperbole and exaggeration? Israel hasn't built any new settlements since the mid 90's and aren't spreading out beyond those settlement areas either. I don't see why those like yourself feel the need to spew such bullshit - all you're doing is encouraging Israel's enemy hardliners to keep the conflict going. They know they can rely on their "friends" in the West to support and advocate for them. You don't help Palestinians by spewing PLO/Hamas talking points...

I asked you specifically if you believe Abbas should have accepted the 2-state offer and whether you're fine with him rejecting it and therefore choosing to extend the conflict, the occupation, settlements....

Can you please answer that one?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Who exactly would they be negotiating with?
Edited on Fri Apr-01-11 08:54 AM by hack89
the PA or Hamas? The Palestinians are fighting each other and are constantly on the brink of civil war. Add to that constant rocket attacks from Gaza and it begs the question of what Israel can do to solve Palestinian internal problems.

If the Palestinians want a state, then perhaps they should act like one? A unified government, rule of law and no external aggression towards neighboring states might be a good start.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kayecy Donating Member (931 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. "If the UN recognizes a Palestine without fixed borders" ..........Ha, ha ha!
.....the UN has said that the borders of Israel have to be fixed through negotiations

How can you expect a fair negotiation between Israel & the Palestinians?..
Israel is a regional super-power occupying the whole of Palestine
The Palestinians have no military capability and no sovereign territory to negotiate with.

Its like saying that 1940s Poland should have negotiated with Hitler & Stalin to determine its final borders.


.....If the UN recognizes a Palestine without fixed borders I don't see exactly how anything meaningful has been accomplished

Ha, ha, ha!.....Would you say that was true about Israel and UN recognition without fixed borders?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. The UN cannot impose and enforce borders
it doesn't have that power. Any borders will have to be negotiated between Israel and Palestine. There is no way around that simple fact.

If the Arabs had not started a war, the borders of Palestine would have been those of the UN partition plan. Israel accepted the 1948 borders - the Arabs rejected them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tootrueleft Donating Member (385 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Yes, thats the job of the israeli administration
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-11 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
39. And which Palestinian administration? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. Israel holds Russia talks in push to thwart Palestinian state recognition
France, Germany and the U.K. are pushing for announcing a new international peace initiative which may include setting up two states on the basis of the 1967 borders.

Isaac Molho, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s senior adviser and top negotiator on the Palestinian channel, made a secret trip to Moscow on Wednesday and met with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov. The purpose of the visit was to dissuade Russia from supporting the European Union’s intention to present in two weeks’ time a plan for the establishment of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-holds-russia-talks-in-push-to-thwart-palestinian-state-recognition-1.353404


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-11 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
28. what I would find interesting...
Should the UN accept Palestine as a member state (which they DO have the right to do, as opposed to defining its borders unilaterally), then Palestine would probably be granted admission into the Middle Eastern Regional Group, giving it more automatic rights within the UN than Israel currently possesses. Currently Israel only plays an observer roles at UN offices in Geneva, Nairobi, Rome and Vienna and is barred from sitting on the security council. It would be interesting if the UN granted these rights to Palestine before Israel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC