Germany Threatens To Halt Submarine Sale to Israel

[xchrom]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,794991,00.html

Germany is threatening to stop the delivery of a "Dolphin" submarine to Israel in protest over the country's settlement policies. Government sources confirmed the development when asked by SPIEGEL following speculation last week in the Israeli media that Germany might halt the sale.

The move is in response to the recent decision by the Israeli government to approve the construction of 1,100 homes in Gilo, an Arab part of Jerusalem captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six Day War. The Israeli government considers the area to be a Jewish suburb, but the international community contests that description.

The threat by German Chancellor Angela Merkel has been the subject of considerable concern in Israel.

The nuclear-weapons capable Dolphin submarines are an important part of the Israeli military strategy. The navy already owns three of the submarines and two further vessels are currently being built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW), the shipbuilding division of German steelmaker Thyssen-Krupp, in Kiel, Germany.

[madrchsod]

1. thyssen-krupp---ironic is`t it..

[vminfla]

2. Germany has always had a strained relationship with Israel

Nothing new here.

[JohnyCanuck]

3. About fucking time

Germans should stop letting themselves be brow beaten into boosting the Israeli side of the Middle East arms race by providing nuclear capable weapons (on which Israel can mount their undeclared nuclear arms) based on the actions of the German people 60 years ago.

[King_David]

4. Yea it was just a minor action and 60 years is a long time ?

Get real buddy .

Maybe if it's your family who did this that family may think 60 yrs is enough.I think not.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

14. No and yes respectively, of course.

No, the holocaust was not a minor action.

Yes, 66 years is long enough that all the people responsible for it are now dead.

[King_David]

17. 60 +years is long enough to forget about that Nakba thing too

Doncha think?

Did not think so , ha ha

[Donald Ian Rankin]

19. If it had been dealt with at the time, absolutely.

If, after the Nakba, the Palestinian refugees had been allowed to return home and restitution paid, 60 years would indeed be long enough not to forget it but to refrain from treating it as a major political fact.

If Israel now withdraws to its own borders and grants the right of return, in 60 years it will be time to forgive it. But for as long as Israeli crimes against the Palestinians are ongoing, that 60-year clock won't start ticking.

[vminfla]

22. It had been dealt with at the time

Arabs rejected the creation of another arab state. What other group of people get so many do-overs? Are you interested in the Prussions right of return or the Kurds right of return? But, as long as there is an Israel, there are people seeking to destroy it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. No and vaguely, respectively.

I know nothing whatsoever about any Prussion (Prussian?) right of return - to where? why?

My understanding is that the treatment of the Kurds by many of the governments ruling parts of what was once Kurdistan has been fairly appalling, but I believe that most Kurdisn nationalism / Kurdish rights activism is based around either the desire for greater autonomy and recognition within the states they're currently in (e.g. in Turkey) or attempts to establish an independent Kurdish state, possibly in parts of what are currently now Turkey and Iraq; not of the desire for any right of return.

That said, I know far less about Kurdish people than I do of the Palestinians, because I've never seen the issues being argued anywhere I had a desire to join in, and hence never bothered to read up on them to find out which side (if either) was right or wrong.

[vminfla]

32. Exactly my point

There actually was a Kurdistan. There has never been a palestinian state, unless the word palestinian was used to describe someone of Jewish descent. After all, prior to the mid 20th century, if you called someone "palestinian", you were refering to a Jew. It is only recently that "palestinian" denoted someone of arab descent.

[King_David]

5. I guess you dont support justice for the Aboriginal people of Canada

and their ongoing land claims either ? As a progressive I most certainly do.

How many years ago was that ?

[Shaktimaan]

6. good point

and the palestinians should stop whining about losing their state over 60 years ago and just make do.

[Kurska]

7. They never had a state 60 years ago.

They lost the possibility of having a state because they refused to let the Jews have one too and then lost a war of aggression. Now I think they should have a state, because self determination is right of all people.

[azurnoir]

9. so when do you think 'they' should get their own state ?

oooh let me guess...........

[vminfla]

20. When do you think the Kurds should get their own state

I always find it fascinating that those who are so virulent about demanding an arab state go silent when it comes to the recreation of Kurdistan.

[Kurska]

8. dupe n/t

[holdencaufield]

10. Don't Count Israel Out

On the eve of the Six-Day War (in 1967) France embargoed all arms to Israel -- including 30 Mirage V Fighter Aircraft that Israel had bought and paid for.

Within two years, Israel acquired the blueprints and built their own home-built version called the Nesher (an engineering feat of which no other nation in the region is capable). Superior to the French design with upgraded avionics built in Israel, the Nesher claimed over 200 kills in the 1973 Yom Kippur War with a loss of only 6 aircraft in combat.

The point is...Israel is perfectly capable of building their own Dolphin Class Submarines based on the 3 currently in the Heil HaYam.

[shaayecanaan]

11. Absolutely, there is nothing those plucky little Israelis can't do...

after they have seized the blueprints for the submarines in a daring commando raid, they should build a thousand submarines and lay siege to the entire European continent until the those milksops recant and apologise for supporting the Palestinians' UNESCO bid. Then the submarines will turn around and drop bombs on every Arab capital until they quit this commie bunk. Did I mention that these submarines are capable of flight? They are. Anyway thats what Chuck Norris should do. Uh, Israel.

[holdencaufield]

12. Feel better now? NT

[shaayecanaan]

15. Well, I felt pretty good before (nt)

[vminfla]

13. Far more complicated than lipstick case bullets

I did not know this. Fascinating and an engineering marvel. I am always amazed at Israel's determination to survive and defend itself against overwhelming odds.

[holdencaufield]

16. Some people...

...are extremely uncomfortable with Jews either surviving or defending themselves. They prefer to see them in a more traditional role, that of victims.

[azurnoir]

18. so you feel the role of victim is 'traditional' for Jews?

that is quite a sorry state of mind IMO especially seeing as how are speaking of people who survived many many years of torment intact why is that you seem to underrate Jews so much?

[King_David]

21. Jews were always victims until

The Srate of Israel came around.

No longer victims and the Jewish State kicks ass.

A lot of people hate seeing STRONG Jews

And prefer their pre-Israel state = on our knees .

[azurnoir]

23. No they were not merely victims and your proclamations of such

dishonor Jews who survived pogroms of the past and managed to grow stronger despite all the hardship, what you call 'strength' today is actually closer to bullydom which is not strength at all

[holdencaufield]

24. Being the last one...

...alive when your enemy runs out of bullets or just gets bored with killing you isn't laudable. Moving from place to place with nothing but the clothes on your back because your neighbours decided you must be poisoning their wells isn't honourable. Of course Jews have survived expulsions, inquisitions, pogroms, and every other kind of attack because of our traditions and communal adhesion and that IS something to be proud of. But, we don't seek or extol the virtues of martyrdom. Zionism began when Jews finally realised that we don't have to be bullet sponges for the REAL bullies of the world, looking for a weakling on whom to vent their hatred. We didn't have to act like battered housewives and keep our head down so as not to anger our host nations. We could be autonomous and stand up to the bullies. THAT I consider to be a truly honourable.

If you think Jews today are being bullies then you clearly aren't paying attention to the situation or -- as I said before -- you're one of those who is uncomfortable with Jews as anything other than passive survivors standing in a field of their dead brothers and sisters. Those days are gone, thank G-d.

[azurnoir]

27. No I think some confuse Israeli military might with personal strength

they are not the same as 'Jews' today being bullies no not hardly but those that think a big gun equates to strength that is a bully no matter who you are

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

28. yes dishonor and yes from me

you like the previous poster seem to confuse military strength with personal strength and again they are not the same that along with resting on the laurels of those who came before you

in this case not even the moral courage to come out say it but rather a 'sly' underhanded attempt at insult glad to see I touched a nerve

[King_David]

29. Your clueless how us Jews have changed

For the better.

We no longer lambs .

We do not sit by passively and allow ourselves to be slaughtered .

We have a country and a very powerful army.

As I said before : Strong Jews

Am Ysrael Chai ( not like in the past )

[azurnoir]

30. your talking about Israel and no Israeli's are not lambs at all n/t

[King_David]

31. Yes I am talking about The Jewish State

And Am Yisrael (Jewish Nation)