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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 06:47 PM
Original message
Jordan says will not be 'substitute homeland' for Palestinians
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=379708&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

<snip>

"Jordan on Monday rejected calls by some hard-line Israeli politicians to make the kingdom a homeland for West Bank Palestinians.

Prime Minister Faisal al-Fayez told two visiting Members of Knesset that Jordan "rejects any Israeli schemes which seek to expel Palestinians (from the West Bank) or to return to statements that Jordan is a substitute homeland (for Palestinians)," the official Petra news agency said.

"Jordan's position is clear and there's no room for bargaining," al-Fayez reportedly told Mohammed Barakeh and Issam Makhoul of Hadash, also known as the Democratic Front for Peace and Equality."

<snip>

"Israel must "recognize the legitimate and national rights of the Palestinian people, and in the forefront its right to establish a Palestinian state in pre-1967 borders and with Jerusalem as its capital," al-Fayez said."


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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Jordan is Palestine" is a no-go.
It's not even acceptable in Washington. Jordan doesn't want it, and not out of pro-Palestine feelings. Keeping Palestinians in Jordan politically disenfranchised is key to the maintenance of the monarchy.
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La_Serpiente Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've heard some hardliners say that parts of Jordan should go to the
Palestinians. I was on the blog of a Democratic candidate back when Israel struck Syria and there was this guy who said that parts of Jordan should go to the Palestinians. I told him he was nutz because the Palestinians would never go for something like that. He made it seem as though both Jordanians and Palestinians would easily accept it.
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wunnerfulrobin Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Opinions please........
I've never seen this suggestion:
why not get Israel to give the west bank to the Palestinians, and get Saudi to give a chunk of land, Jordan to give a chunk, Syria do the same. Roll it all up together and there's ypour "Palestinian state". I would think that if these other countries REALLY cared about the Palest. they would support some help for them like this. I also think Israel would go for it as well. Then we could see if they really want a country, or really just want the destruction of Israel.
Whatta you think? Hypothetically of course........
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Makes sense to me
as long as Jerusalem was off the table. That is an issue the no true Israeli could go for and no Christian either btw.
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Anything can be done
if all parties involved agree. How can not agreeing to what you suggest mean the destruction of Israel?
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wunnerfulrobin Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. because there are several groups
who make it clear that they dont just want their own state, but they want NO Israel at all, anywhere. Look at the maps in their schools. there is no israel.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. As there are groups in Israel
that want vice versa (no Palestine, and all Palestinians shoved into other countries) as do some in the USA (neocons)
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Why complicate the problem?
Most would settle for Israel and the Palestinians making whatever appropriate adjustments to the border (Green Line) that need to be made and making the West Bank and Gaza the Palestinian state. Why ask other countries to donate land like this? There's no guarantee that they would be willing and they would be within their rights to say no.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Good approach...
in that you are thinking of a multilateral solution.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. What the Palestinians want
Of course they are not going to settle for anything less than domination over Israel.

Even some Jordanians who have influence, such as the late King's brother would agree to sharing Jordan with the Palestinians. There was already a thread with an article about his views:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=42867
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Oh really
Do you read the minds of all the Palestinians to know that? They want domination over Israel?
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. With friends like the king of Jordan who needs enemies?
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. If you want somebody to blame
it's Britain, for not seeing to it long ago that two states are created, one for the Palestinians and one for Israel, instead of one.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. There's plenty of blame to go around
The British get some. So do the Israelis. So do the Palestinians themselves.

It's better to find a solution than to assess blame. Let the historians do that.
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Oh, I agree
but JasonDeter blames King Abdullah, and I didn't like that.

I think it's best not to look back at all, but to concentrate on where we go from here.
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Why should the British be blamed?
UN General Assembly Resolution 181
(Partition Plan)
November 29, 1947

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 called for the partition of the British-ruled Palestine Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state. It was approved on November 29, 1947 with 33 votes in favor, 13 against, 10 abstentions and one absent.

The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states.

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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. The British were the colonial power after World War I
Edited on Tue Jan-06-04 09:52 AM by Jack Rabbit
They took over Palestine from the Ottoman Turks.

They ran the place like they ran their other colonies. First of all, they made the mistake of thinking the land was theirs to do as they pleased. That's a hoot to begin with, but it's the one on which all colonialism is founded. The Balfour Declaration may have served the Jews of Europe well, but it was still a decision made by the British about land that wasn't British and without regard for the thoughts of the people who actually lived in place. Of course, nineteenth- and early twentieth-century colonialists thought that natives were too dumb to make their own decisions and, consequently, it never occurred to them that "their" colonies would be self-governing nation-states someday.

Second, the British drew borders that served their colonial purposes, but had no regard for the people who actually lived within them. Take a look at Africa. There's a whole continent of nation-states that inherited colonial borders that had little to do with the tribes of people living within them. Just whose idea was it to put Hutus and Tustsis together in Rwanda? British Mandated Palestine consisted of what is now Jordan, Israel and the Palestinian Territories. Even without the influx of Jews from Europe, this was a territory vastly diverse peoples. When the British partitioned the country in order to accommodate Jewish immigration, they simply used a natural boundary, the Jordan River, as if that would solve the problem of Jews and Arabs (well, an Arab is an Arab is an Arab, or so they thought).

To govern the Arab partition, Transjordan, the British installed a relative of the ruling family of Iraq. Again, an Arab is an Arab is an Arab, right? However, King Abdallah had little more in common with the Bedouins of Transjordan than the Palestinian Arabs do.

In the end, the British governed the Palestinian Mandate so badly that they could not sort all all the conflicting claims based on promises they had made to representatives on this group and that one and yet another one over here. In 1947, they dumped the whole problem in the lap of the United Nations.
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. It 's happening now
Not only did the 19th and early 20th century colonialists think that natives were too dumb to make their own decisions, the new colonialists are thinking it now. The west wants to decide what the developing countries can or cannot have or do. The western countries, specifically the US, now want to dominate the rest of the world probably because they're afraid they will be done to what they've done in the past! Meanwhile we talk about democracy and equality! I don't understand anyone who doesn't understand why they hate us.
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
12. A little history
Edited on Tue Jan-06-04 12:15 AM by MikeGalos
Back when the British first established the "Mandate of Palestine" they split it into a Western and Eastern sectors. The Eastern Sector was exclusively for Arabs and Jews were only allowed in the Western Sector. Jews were expelled from the Eastern Sector (about 80% of the Mandate of Palestine) in what we'd now call "Ethnic Cleansing" and an Arab-Only Palestinian state was created called TransJordan. A state now called Jordan that still explicitly prohibits Jews from citizenship (although any other religion is welcome)

After the 1948 invasion of Israel created lots of refugees on both sides, the Jordanians were the ONLY Arab state that offered the Arab refugees citizenship. A situation that continued until the PLO, which had based its operations in a PLO-friendly Jordan decided that they LIKED the idea of a PLO state in Jordan. Of course their implementation left a little to be desired and somehow the Jordanians didn't like the PLO's attempted military coup d'etat to overthrow King Hussein.

After that, the Jordanians were a little less friendly (look up "Black September" if you don't remember the largest killing of "Palestinian soldiers" in history) and the PLO had to move to Southern Lebanon.

Isn't it interesting that wherever Arafat is, war, attacks on civilians and death seem to follow?

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wunnerfulrobin Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. thanks for the reminder!
I completely forgot aboutthe killings by the Jordanians. Also, many say the israelis "forced" out the palestinians, when they actually left on their own because they had been told to by the other arab countries. the promise was, leave now, we'll destroy the israelis, and then you can come back and resettle. Didnt work out that way though.........
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. sigh...
How many times is that BS canard going to have to be refuted?


WERE THEY EXPELLED? –

THE HISTORY, HISTORIOGRAPHY AND RELEVANCE OF THE PALESTINIAN REFUGEE PROBLEM

By Ilan Pappe, historian, Haifa University

http://www.palisad.org/papers/pappe1.htm

Don't bother respond with some supposedly witty repartee. Your argument is with historians. Write a letter to Prof. Pappe with your mythical grievances.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. The Palestinians WERE expelled!
End of story. Even serious Israeli historians recognize that. All the rest is RW revisionistic bull...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Oddly enough
The research by Pappe does not settle the dispute:

<snip>

The principal factor causing the exodus was the flight of the urban upper class from Palestine, who had begun leaving already in September 1947. This was a voluntary exit of about 70,000 Palestinians, mainly from the mixed towns of Palestine. For Teveth the departure of this group is crucial for understanding what happened next. He has no doubts, as he states clearly in the article, that had the elite stayed the picture would have been different. But how different? Teveth sees the elite’s behaviour as setting a code of conduct for the rest of the population. Here Teveth reproduces the ‘Domino Effect’ put forward by Ben Gurion in 1961 and mentioned above. It started a series of flights, as he calls it. The elite’s departure undermined the moral and economic foundations of the society as a whole. The elite evicted vital civil service positions in the economic infrastructure of the towns. The collapse occurred around March and April 1948 and it was the fall of Haifa (on 21 April 1948) which played a particular important role in accelerating the process.

<snip>

The gist of the common ground is a consensus between the ‘new historians’ in Israel and many Palestinian historians that Israel bare the main responsibility for the making of the problem. If Plan D is not seen a master-plan for expulsion, even Benny Morris agree it was not born out the blue - expulsion was considered as one of the principal means of building a Jewish homeland in Palestine. The plan reflected the mood of the Jewish soldieries before and after the war, a mood which is echoed very concisely in Ezra Danin’s words to Ben Gurion: ‘The Arabs of the Land of Israel, they have but one task left - to run away’.

The British and the Palestinian leadership share the responsibility. The British for the period which lasted until May 15, at least, when they were responsible for law and order. Expelling people meant that they were not fulfilling these functions. In fact, British policy makers were concerned only with the safety of their withdrawing troops and clerks and nothing more. As in India, chaos anarchy and bloodshed was left behind without anyone in Whitehall looking back ruminating in remorse about the negative British legacy.

The Palestinian leadership played a negative and important role in the dynamics of exodus. Not only did the political elite forsake its constituency in its most crucial hour; it also failed to give coherent guidance from its exile to the besieged communities in Palestine. The escape of those who were able to flee in relative security - the professional and business class from the major cities - augmented the terror and confusion.

An Israeli recognition of the central role the refugees play in the national ethos and memory of the Palestinians can be one of many fruits produced by the historiographical debate on the question of causality and responsibility. The next is a recognition] in the Israeli guilt. Another is a revision of the PLO’s demand for a transfer of the Jews out of Palestine as the only rectification of the past’s evils. I would like to conclude this article with some reflections on the contemporary implications of this debate.

<snip>

As I argued before, Zionism was more then just expelling Palestinians and many Zionists genuinely believed, like any colonialists, that they were modernizing Palestine and Palestinians. I would therefore separate the discussion on the 1948 exodus from a debate on the nature of Zionism. Such a debate is not focused on 1948, it owes more to the adoption of a colonialist perspective of Zionism and recognition of the inherent contradiction between democracy and a Jewish nation-state. These are more useful means for exploring the moral validity of Zionism - as a past ideology or a present institutionalized interpretation of reality. Israelis, such as the ‘new historians’ come closer to the Palestinian version of what happened in 1948, without necessarily sharing the Palestinian perspective on Zionism as a whole. The most important political implication is that this new Israeli perception may bare upon the chances of Israelis accepting, at least in principle, the Right of Return for the refugees of 1948.

<snip>

Fatah, founded in 1959, and overtaking the PLO in 1968, was the principal institutional manifestation of the Palestinian longing for revenge and of bringing back the lost time of pre-1948 Palestine. The PLO’s charter spoke of an armed struggle for the sake of the return of the refugees to their homes and of the elimination of the ‘Zionist Entity’ which was founded by ‘Nazi and Fascist means’. The charter predicted the establishment of a secular democratic Arab state instead of Israel. The charter was taught in the refugee camps’ schools and its precepts fed the imagination of playwrights, novelists, and poets in their effort to express the living spirit of Palestinian nationalism.

The Palestinian armed struggle had many sources of inspiration. One of them were the psycho-historical explanation of Franz Fanon and his likes of the purifying and homogenizing effect an national armed struggle can have of the crystallization of a new identify for deprived anti-colonialist peoples. It seems that the leaders of the Palestinian armed struggle were also taken by liberation struggles all over the Third World. A particular influence carried with it the charismatic dogma of Mao Tze Tung. Mao’s ‘peasant revolt’ was emulated by Arafat in 1967 in the wake of the Israeli occupation with little success.

The failure of the Maoist approach had brought Palestinians closer to the Algerian model of a guerrilla warfare. A daily struggle against the Israeli army but also frequent terrorism against the civil population (including the hijacking of airplanes) was the admixture used between 1968 and 1978 by the PLO in the attempt to change the reality in post-mandatory Palestine. But to no avail.


http://www.palisad.org/papers/pappe1.htm

This study does not conclusively say that Israel and the early founders were the only cause of the Palestinains exidus. However, the terrorist philosophy and the implicit psychological intent of overthrowing the Israeli state is the essence of the PLO and later Palestinian organizations.
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 05:47 AM
Response to Original message
19. I still think Edwars Said was right about a one state solution
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. OK, then why not a one-state...
Jordan/Palestine (West Bank) combo?...
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I hate the obfuscation so lets just say it
Because that would leave majority Israel intact.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. And why would that be a problem?
While Jordan closes the door on Arab refugees.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. He didn't say it is a problem
If Israel doesn't try to swallow the West Bank and Gaza, she reamins about 80% Jewish and enjoys democratic freedoms.
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Sure sounded like there was a problem with comment
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. He didn't have a problem with Israel proper having a Jewish majority
Edited on Thu Jan-08-04 12:04 AM by Jack Rabbit
It sounded like he had a problem with cantweall's comment about Jordan and the West Bank. I think we all understand a one-state solution to be a state that includes Israel and the Palestinian Territories under one flag and has nothing to do with Jordan.

As JasonDeter said, it would be easier to just say that one opposes a one-state solution because Israel would not have a Jewish majority in such a state for very long.
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. We read it differently
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. How did you read it?
Edited on Thu Jan-08-04 12:38 AM by Jack Rabbit
My read:

Post 19 (corporatewhore): Advocates single bi-national democratic state.

Post 25 (cantwealljustgetalong): Remark about the single state being the West Bank and Jordan as a way of disagreeing with corporatewhoere; this would leave Israel proper as it is, with an 80% Jewish majority.

Post 26 (JasonDeter): Taking issue with remark about West Bank and Jordan, agreeing with cantwealljustgetalong about Israel being left with a Jewish majority.

Post 27 (Cassandra): Asking what is wrong with Israel having a Jewish majority.

Post 28 (Jack Rabbit): Saying that nothing indicates JasonDeter has a problem with Israel having a Jewish majority, which she would soon not have in a single state solution.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. My reading was that Mr. Deter was implying that
objection to the Jordan-WestBank combo was founded in
dislike for the State of Israel. But it was ambiguous.
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. I'm sorry I was being cryptic
Thank you for reading my mind.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Did we read your mind
or are you still being ambiguous?
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