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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 09:43 AM
Original message
Anti-Semitism: A Practical Manual
By Uri Avnery | AlterNet


Is everybody who criticizes Israel an anti-Semite?

Absolutely not. Somebody who criticizes Israel for certain of our actions cannot be accused of anti-Semitism for that. Many deeply moral persons, the cream of humanity, criticize our behavior in the occupied territories. It is stupid to accuse them of anti-Semitism.

If a person criticizes Israel more than other countries that do the same, is he an anti-Semite?

Not necessarily. True, there should be one and the same moral standard for all countries and all human beings. Russian actions in Chechnya are not better than Israel's in Nablus, and may be worse. The trouble is that the Jews are pictured and picture themselves (and indeed were) a "nation of victims." Therefore, the world is shocked that yesterday's victims are today's victimizers.

Has Europe become anti-Semitic again?

Not really. The number of anti-Semites in Europe has not grown, perhaps it has even fallen. What has increased is the volume of criticism of Israel's behavior towards the Palestinians, who appear as "the victims of the victims."

So should we ignore anti-Semitism?

Definitely not. Racism is a kind of virus that exists in every nation and in every human being.

Israelis are like all other peoples. Each of us can find a small racist within himself, if he searches hard enough. We have in Israel fanatical Arab-haters, and the historic confrontation that dominates our lives increases their power and influence. It is our duty to fight them, and leave it to the Europeans and Arabs to deal with their own racists.

(snipped parts)
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. Uri is brilliant!
I rarely disagree with him.
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. RESPONSE

Is everybody who criticizes Israel an anti-Semit

I agree, however when that same person finds fault with EVERY thing that Israel does and says, you just about bet your bottom dollar that you are dealing with an anti-Semite.

If a person criticizes Israel more than other countries that do the same, is he an anti-Semite?

See answer #1.

Has Europe become anti-Semitic again?

The number is DECREASING if your starting number is 6,000,000 otherwise otherwise is answer is bullshit.

So should we ignore anti-Semitism?

A bit selective isn't he?

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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Nope
he's just about fair. More then I could say for the RW rants of Jpost and their likes.

Uri rocks
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. yep
every response Uri gave was fair, and accurate to the best of my knowledge. We progressives should be lucky to have this guy is in our camp!

:D
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meti57b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. accurate?
It's only his opinion. Everybody has an opinion. How can an opinion be accurate.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
25. He ain't in MY camp.
:puke:
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Noon_Blue_Apples Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. So is that the same for those faulting everything palestinians do?

If all they have is criticisms for palestinians and praise for Israel...are they racist?

Bill
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. When it is for EVERY thing a Palestinian does
the answer is yes.

Your turn
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. What was revealed?
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drewb Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Did I miss the unvealing???
Or the revealing....

Dammit...

:loveya:
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Noon_Blue_Apples Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Sure, the problem with your statement though

You seem to have a different standard.

You equate Israel with jews (anti-semitism). They are not always one in the same - a palestinian is a palestinian - an Israeli is not necessarily a jew - true?

As well, please remember the I/P conflict is not 'everything' Israel is. Someone can be all over that nation on this particular issue but that is not 'everything Israel does' - agreed?

In the final analysis no conclusion can be made of posters here - as that is what I believe is your intent - because the out you try to use for yourself ('every') works for everyone else as well.

Rhetoric is blind - it cuts both ways

Bill



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. I don't have the patience for this right now

I am still riled up with my other post.

First, don't think you are able to put intent into my words.

Second, I have not seen anything in your posts that lead me to believe you know enough about "anti-Semites" to make a judgment on that issue. That is not to say or imply in any way that I think you harbor anti-semitic tendencies in any manner. To the contrary, I have never seen anything in your posts to even suggest that. It would be like my trying to understand both the intellectual and the emotional issues in Canada regarding Quebec.

Criticism of Israeli policies per se is NOT anti-semitism as I said above. I would never consider a person who discusses policy and policy alone as being an anti-Semite. But that is not always the case and you know it.

In your other post you said;

"but you don't hear criticism of Israel coming from Bush - he doesn't 'seem' like an anti-semite does he?"

That reinforces what I said above. You may not have the experience to recognize anti-Semitism. Remember his comment that Jews will go to hell because they don't believe in Jesus? Anti-Semitism takes more forms then tossing Jews in ovens or turning them into lamp shades or bars of soap. Again, I don't mean to imply you are an unfeeling person or have bad intentions, it's just a little more of a complex issue.
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Noon_Blue_Apples Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. then I can't see why...

most (of your perspective) do not see the I/P issue as more complicated than placing most of the blame at the feet of the palestinians - re:'it's just a little more of a complex issue.' or brushing 'europeans' in general as anti-semitic.

Just as I (in your opinion) can not fully understand or have a clarity toward anti-semitism because of who I am (I do not agree)- does the same apply to you on the I/P issue because of who your are? Can you see the issue with clarity?

I believe you can if you want, as I can have as firm an understanding of anti-semitism (my opinion).

As many enjoy ritual with their spiritualism, many others enjoy hate with the morning paper - they need someone to blame as to why life is hard.

It just is.

be it the french, atlantic canadians (yep, wingers out west paint the east coast as 'lazy drunks') or canadian of japanese heritage here who had everything taken away not too many years ago.

I don't believe hating jews is any different or harder to understand

Bill




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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. What defines anti-semitism.
"I agree, however when that same person finds fault with EVERY thing that Israel does and says, you just about bet your bottom dollar that you are dealing with an anti-Semite."

First of all, hardly anybody finds fault with literally everything that a country says and does. However, suppose a person is like that with Israel and with certain other countries. Are they still anti-semite? Anti-semitism would be where the Jews are being singled out.

I don't single out Israel. I have enough criticism to go around. I do criticize a heck of a lot of the things that Israel does, including things that I think hurts their own citizens. For example, Israel pretty much exploits their poor by getting many of them to move out into the West Bank and the Gaza strip. They could build those settlements inside of Israel, but they won't do that. They want to build those settlements in a place that will get their people targeted. To me, it's the same as recruiting the poor to go to war (which other countries do).

Let me bring up something though.
Seriously, I've been wanting to ask a "pro-Israeli" this type of stuff for a long time.

How do you feel about some of the strange stuff being done in the name of promoting the Jewish state? Let me give you a couple of examples.

http://www.nealpollack.com/cgi-bin/blog/do.cgi/200309232226/permalink

Another emotion I felt yesterday was joy. That's because my dear friend Silvio Berlusconi, the grand archduke of the Italian territories, received an award from the Anti-Defamation League because of his strong support for Israel. The so-called Nobel Laureates who are condeming the honor whine that Berlusconi claimed recently in an interview that Benito Mussolini "never killed anyone." Really, what's the big deal in saying something like that? Why wouldn't a group of prominent Jewish intellectuals and media executives want to honor a backhanded Holocaust denier? The award, to me, shows just how far we've come since World War II. Rupert Murdoch, my friend and publisher, once said that Hitler would have made an "interesting dinner companion," but that didn't stop him from winning the Jew Of The Year Award in 1999, even though he's not Jewish.
What about George W? He said that Jews couldn’t go to Heaven. He took it back after being slammed for it of course.

http://www.bushnews.com/jews.htm

That’s not all though. Here’s more. If you want better sources to believe this, then just ask me for them. This is about the Bush family itself.

“According to a story in the Albian Monitor,"Prescott Bush, the father of the former President and the grandfather of the current candidate, spent more than a decade helping his father-in-law George Herbert Walker finance Adolf Hitler from the Wall Street bank, Union Banking Corporation. (Union Banking Corp. was eventually seized under the Trading With The Enemy Act. See Office of Alien Property Custodian, Vesting Order No. 248; Filed, November 6, 1942, 11:31 A.M.; 7 Fed. Reg. 9097 (Nov. 7, 1942).) Walker was one of Hitler's most powerful supporters in the United States, and landed Prescott Bush a job as a director at the firm. From 1924 to 1936, Bush's bank invested heavily in Nazi Germany, selling $50 million of German bonds to American investors. In 1934, a congressional investigation believed that Walker's Hamburg-America Line subsidized a wide range of pro-Nazi efforts in both Germany and the United States. One of Walker's employees, Dan Harkins, delivered testimony to Congressional leaders regarding Walker's Nazi sympathies and business transactions. According to US Government Vesting Order No. 248, many of Union Banking's assets had been operated on behalf of Nazi Germany and had been used to support the German war effort. The U.S. Alien Property Custodian vested the Union Banking Corp.'s stock shares and also issued two other Vesting Orders (nos. 259 and 261) to seize two other Nazi-influenced organizations managed by Bush's bank: Holland American Trading Corporation and Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation. Many major firms had dealings with Nazis in the years leading up to World War II, but relatively few engaged in such extended cooperation with Hitler's Germany after Pearl Harbor. (The Secret War Against The Jews by John Loftus and Mark Aarons. New York; St. Martins Press, 1994.) "
“More recently, both George W. Bush and his father, the former President, had been forced to deal with anti-Semitism in Poppy's campaign, according to the Albian Monitor story: "Nazism was more than a joke to George Bush when he was running for President.... In the fall of 1988, Vice President Bush had to fire several neo-Nazis and anti-Semites from his Presidential campaign. The scandal erupted when Washington Jewish Week and other media outlets discovered that the Bush campaign harbored well known neo-Nazis, including Jerome Brentar, a holocaust revisionist who claims that the Nazis never deliberately gassed victims of the Holocaust, and Akselis Mangulis, who was involved in the SS-influenced Latvian Legion during World War II.8 George W. Bush, the campaign's hatchet man, fired the Nazis.... After the election, four of these came back to work for the Republican Party according to USA Today. (Old Nazis, The New Right And The Republican Party by Russ Bellant. Boston, MA; South End Press, 1991.)...In September of 1999, when many Republicans were calling for Pat Buchanan to resign from the Party for his seeming affection for Hitler and criticism of the US actions during World War II, the presidential front-runner remained silent.’”

There’s more, but I’ll stop there. Anyway, how do you feel knowing that big pro-Israelis like Bush are anti-semite? How do you feel knowing that the Bush’s made money off of killing Jews? I think that all anti-semitism is awful. I think it’s even more awful that people are making where one stands on Israel as the great weight on what an anti-semite is. It’s like they’re telling anti-semites like the Bush’s “It’s okay. You support Israel”. At least, that’s how I feel about it.





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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Before I read your entire post
Edited on Fri Jan-23-04 05:21 PM by GabysPoppy
As soon as I saw the name Bush and his family, and after :puke: I will say one thing and one thing only.


BUSH AND HIS FAMILY ARE THE BIGGEST ANTI-SEMITES IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.

Please don't even get me started on that topic. I'm sure yours was a well thought out post and you put effort into it and I don't mean to ignore it, but that is a topic that sends me over the edge. That family has the blood of 6,000,000 Jewish people on their hands and every last one of them (bushes) should rot in hell for eternity.
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Noon_Blue_Apples Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Shit, we agree on something
Edited on Fri Jan-23-04 05:07 PM by Noon_Blue_Apples
It's a starting point.

edit:

but you don't hear criticism of Israel coming from Bush - he doesn't 'seem' like an anti-semite does he?

those are the f@ckers you need to watch for - not the left.

Bill

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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. To be honest.....
I don't think that the left is free of anti-semitism.

I do think that there are a lot more anti-semites on the right, then on the left. I also have to say that it really hurts when one gets accused of anti-semitism because of their views on Israel and Palestine (I'm sure that goes for the right and the left).

However, I do personally know some on the left who are anti-semitic. Their anti-semitism is well hidden, but I'm one of the few people who got to see it. People like them are the reason why I'm so cautious today. Heck, people like them got me disillusioned with the whole Pro-Palestinian cause for a while until I realized one important truth.

The truth is that one just can't determine who the good guys and bad guys are by their politics or whether they were on the right or the left. I wish it was that simple, but it's just not. When it comes to determining who is an anti-semite/anti-Arab and what is a worthy cause on the I/P subject, we have to critically think about everything that comes along the way. There's no real way around it.
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Noon_Blue_Apples Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. I agree fully!

there are anti-semites of all stripes. no doubt.

I disagree 100% the argument that jews today have more to fear from the left than the right and is the norm or the new 'left culture' in general.

hogwash.

IMHO having those feelings toward anyone negates you from my 'left' and plants you on the right.

B
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Thank you.
Edited on Fri Jan-23-04 07:59 PM by Jackie97
You have no idea how much I get bothered concerning people accusing those accuse pro-Palestinians of anti-semitism, while acting like one is a bigot for comparing Bush to Hitler. Actually, I get bothered in general that the Bush's has had so much power in the US. That's a family that worked with the Nazis for crying out loud.

And no, I'm not bothered that you didn't read it. I empathize, and believe it or not, I do empathize about what's going on in Europe too.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. Uri is AWESOME!
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
9. Comparing Herzl to Garvey.
Herzl's connection with anti-semites reminds me of Garvey, who started a movement to create a black nation (made from African Americans) in a part of africa decades ago. Garvey wanted to move in on those Africans and Westernize the area, just like Herzl wanted to move in on Arab culture. Like Herzl, Garvey also connected with the enemy. He would talk to the KKK, and the KKK was on his side. They wanted the blacks to go back to Africa, just like some wanted the Jews to be away into another land. Because lynchings against African Americans were high at the time, Garvey created a pretty large movement. Some say that it was the first really large movement of blacks organizing together to fight oppression. Whether if it's through lychings or the holocaust, a ethnic minority can obviously get desperate enough to move to where they might unintentionally hurt others for their own survival (which explains how victims can become oppressors as Uri talks about). However, I don't like how he worded that.

"The trouble is that the Jews are pictured and picture themselves (and indeed were) a "nation of victims." Therefore, the world is shocked that yesterday's victims are today's victimizers."

He makes it sound like Jews in general (not the Isreali government, IDF, or even Zionists) are the oppressors. I'm sure he's not anti-semite judging by his other comments, but I thought that needed to be pointed out.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I think he (Avnery) considers himself a zionist of the two-state school.
I think you comments are intelligent and insightful.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Thank you.
I try.
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
20. How can one not agree
with Uri Avnery.

"Yesterday's victims are today's victimizers." I've seen it put another way - "The Palestinians are Israel's Jews."
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
26. Not again!
This is getting very old. Not many new ideas or any real content here.

Dupe
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=47727
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
27. Fighting in their midst
Of course the most critical element is that Uri says that anti-Semitism in Europe has 1) not increased and 2) mostly the result of Jewish support for France in Algeria:

It is also a continuation of the feud between Arabs and Jews that started in Algeria when the Jews supported the French regime and Muslims considered them collaborators of the hated colonialists.

So instead of hating the French they hate the Jews. It doesn't make much logical sense to me.

The final point that Jews should mind their own business is also an unfair statement when he acknowledges the interest Europeans have in watching the events in Israel. It is a diversion for them. So they have their play thing, and Israeli should ignore it. That Israel has it's share of racism, is also logically true, but then there are frequent attacks by Palestinian "terror groups" on Israeli citizens which contributes to the hatred and image that some have of Arabs and Palestinians. This is not dealt with at all. While the Protocols is an "European" creation (remember Europeans don't have an increasing problem with anti-Semitism according to Avnery) and therefore it shouldn't be viewed as Muslim anti-Semitics. Again they can import their material and also importing anti-Semitism from Algeria is considered acceptable.

This "Guide to anti-Semitism" appeals to those who have a superficial view of Israel, and de-legitimize the Jewish state.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. No it doesn't.
It appeals to those who have a sense of decency and humanity. That is what progressives are about. I am sorry you've missed that point.
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