Israeli Demolitions Leave Many Homeless

[Resistance]

Atlanta Journal Constitution (AP)

RAFAH REFUGEE CAMP, Gaza Strip (AP)--Sami Homs' family of 12 has been living in a single room since his house was razed by Israel three months ago, and now the Palestinian laborer fears the bulldozers will strike again.

Like his demolished house, Homs' tiny new shelter, a former kiosk, stands in the path of demolition--a wide buffer zone Palestinians say Israel is carving into the Rafah camp.

Raids over the past three years have left more than 8,600 people homeless, or nearly 10 percent of the camp's 90,000 residents, local officials say. Since the outbreak of fighting in September 2000, Israel has razed 869 houses in Rafah and partially demolished 629 others, local Palestinians claim.

Last week, about 400 Rafah residents were made homeless and a Palestinian woman standing near her house was killed in the two-day raid.

[Jack Rabbit]

1. Related thread

BBC (Sunday): UN warns over Israeli demolitions started Sunday early afternoon.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jackie97]

3. Homelessness oftentimes leads to death.

Israel whines about being terrorized, but won't stop doing the very thing that provokes people to terrorism.

[Resistance]

6. well

I for one think that much of what Israel does is terrorism - just as bad, and many times what they do is even worse than suicide bombings.

[Gimel]

8. How could it be

How can you consider anything worse than suicide bombings? There is not horror worse than that. An exploding bus killing up to 22 innocent people and wounding scores more, often for a life time? Injuries such as loss of limbs and blindness? The sheer numbers are far greater than any IDF attack that injured or killed innocent bystanders.

[Resistance]

12. well

because Israeli troops murder more Palestinian civilians than Palestinian terrorists murder Israeli civilians, for one.

Another thing, Israel continues to steal land and bulldoze Palestinian homes, something which suicide bombings do not accomplish.

Therefore, yes Israel is commiting far worse atrocities than Palestinian extremist groups.

[Gimel]

14. The numbers of deaths

while there are estimated to be about half of the dead of the Palestinians to be civilians, roughly 1000, and about 550 of the Israeli deaths civilians, the response to the wave of terrorism and measures that are taken to prevent attacks has certainly reduced the potential. It is not that the Hamas and other organizations didn't launch more massive attacks on Israeli population centers, it is rather that about half of them were prevented. So it is hardly a thing to boast about, when Palestinians, including Arafat, call on the people to resist the IDF operation in arresting terrorists.

[Resistance]

17. sorry

the IDF murdering innocent Palestinians, stealing land and demolishing homes is not a legitimate "response" to Palestinian terrorism.

The terrorism committed by militants from both sides needs to stop.

[Gimel]

18. A gross equation

Perhaps from a distance it looks that way. Perhaps reading isolated facts and figures has brought you to that conclusion. Sometimes it is presented that way by those who have an anti-Israel bias.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gimel]

22. Excuse me?

The farcical charges are the trumped up accusations. I am not in the habit of repeating it, but apparently you hear it too much. Plug your ears if you wish, but don't scold me for my opinions.

[Resistance]

23. I'm not scolding you

I'm asking you to drop the cries of "anti-Israel" when there is legitimate criticism of Israeli aggression. Nobody is buying it anymore.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

24. likewise...

whenever the criticism is illegitimately shrill, it won't be swallowed in silence...

as Gimel said, plug your ears if you wish...

[Resistance]

25. once again

Criticizing Israeli aggression is not "anti-Israel".

Nor is it "illegitimately shrill".

Is it at all possible that we could move on to more constructive discussion, rather than playing these games?

[GabysPoppy]

26. Like a 50th Rachel Corrie thread?

[Resistance]

28. What is wrong with 50 or 100 or 500 Rachel Corrie threads?

The girl was murdered by an Israeli military bulldozer driver, and there has been no investigation. The discussion of the murder of Rachel will continue as long as justice remains unserved.

[Jackie97]

31. Because....

It reminds pro-Israelis that the country that they defend isn't perfect.

I do think that we shouldn't focus the discussion just on Rachel Corrie though. There were other activists who have gotten it after all. Also, I have to say that if Corrie wasn't a white American, then there might not have been this much discussion on it.

[Gimel]

32. Investigation

There was a through investigation.

[drdon326]

34. No...

actually it reminds me what a pathetic terrorist supporting
ignorant little girl that got into a situation that
was waaaaay over her head.....literally and figuratively.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

37. actually, just the opposite...

they accept that Israel is not perfect...and that, of course, neither are YOU (universal)...I'll leave it at that...

[GabysPoppy]

35. How about an ivestigation for this mother & child

Goldie Taubenfeld, 43, and Shmuel Taubenfeld, 3 months, NY
A mother of thirteen, Goldie lived in New Square, an orthodox community near Monsey, NY and was in Israel with her husband and two of her children for a family wedding. Both she and her son, Shmuel, were killed in the attack.

They died because they rode a bus.

Or how about these three Americans

John Eric Branchizio,John Martin Linde, Jr., Mark T. Parson

American diplomatic personnel killed by Palestinian terrorists in Gaza.

Please have some compassion for these individuals when calling for your investigation.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tinnypriv]

86. I'm sure

That you have even just one particle of evidence for that slander.

[Jim Sagle]

44. Sorry, she wasn't murdered. She died through her own reckless acts.

[Resistance]

63. yes she was murdered

the driver ruthlessly ran his bulldozer over her once, then backed up and crushed her again - on purpose.

That is murder, and there needs to be a U.S. investigation. The killers should not investigate their own killings.

[Jim Sagle]

90. Got any evidence besides Al Jazeer?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Resistance]

57. Hmm

maybe there's no Free David Duke threads because David Duke is bigoted swine?

To compare peaceful human rights workers with conservative pigs like Duke is totally inappropriate here.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Resistance]

66. Corrie and the ISM do not support terrorists

And it is no justification for Israel murdering Rachel and Tom Hurndall anyway.

Quit comparing Corrie to David Duke - just because Israel murdered Rachel Corrie in cold blood is no reason to smear her name.

[Blitz]

69. That's a matter of some dispute, now isn't it?

I have a hard time differentiating between terrorist supporting hatemongers. You obviously don't share my difficulty.

[Resistance]

71. no, there is no disputing.

the ISM does not support terrorists, period. Go to their website to see their actual views, if you like: www.palsolidarity.org

[Blitz]

78. Their website

right . . .

Maybe I'll ask the owner of Mike's Place what he thinks. He happens to be a friend of a friend.

For the record, I've never seen pictures of David Duke teaching hate to children so, yeah, maybe the comparison is unfair.

[Resistance]

82. oh ok

so now Duke is Mr. Nice Guy while Rachel Corrie is Evil-Incarnate.

:crazy: I've heard it all now. :crazy:

[Blitz]

84. I never said that he was nice

Just that he may not have done some of the things that she did. Maybe if he was asked about it he'd say "yeah, I used to be in the Klan but hey, I never stood in front of a bunch of kids and urged them to hate." He'd have a point, too.

[Darranar]

58. Hatemonger?

:eyes:

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gimel]

27. The aggression

is aimed at defusing the terrorists groups, stopping the illegal import of illegal weapons used in terrorist attacks and preventing attacks on Israeli citizens and guards. It's called self-defense.

Yes, the Palestinians do suffer. I hope that the PA will be wise enough to help in the expulsion and detention of terrorist leaders, and the redirection of the Palestinian political focus. They have the seed money to build their economy. They have the power to educate in a more humanistic vein. Let them realize that they must help themselves to build a better life.

[Resistance]

29. Murdering civilians, stealing land, and bulldozing homes

is not legitimate "self-defense".

[Gimel]

33. Warfare itself

looks identical in the aftermath whether a just or an unjust war, it leaves dead, wounded and damaged property.

[Resistance]

77. oh

so next time a suicide bomber blows up innocent people, we can expect a similar comment from you, explaining that this is just how warfare is.

But just to be sure, does the statement "War leaves many dead and wounded" accurately sum up your view on suicide bombings?

[Gimel]

102. Innocent civilians

cannot be equated with terrorists with blood on their hands.

[Resistance]

110. The Israeli army murders alot more

than just terrorists with blood on their hands.

[Jim Sagle]

45. Israel isn't murdering anyone. Self-defense isn't murder.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

83. The ISM

helped to murder Yannai Weiss, Ron Baron and Caroline Dominique.

Go here to help the victims of the ISM's friends.

[Jim Sagle]

91. No they don;t.

[Resistance]

94. oh I see

so all the civilians Israeli troops have been going around killing were really what, aliens dressed up like humans?

[Gimel]

103. Civilian troops

This is a contradiction in terms. Although post #70 was deleted and I can't comment on that, you are focusing on your basic problem in analysis here.

[Jim Sagle]

104. Terrorists hide among civilians to increase collateral damage.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

36. yes, it's possible...

let us know when you start...

[Jim Sagle]

43. Self-defense isn't aggression.

[Resistance]

72. Exactly

Israel's aggression against the Palestinian people has nothing to do with self-defense.

[Jim Sagle]

92. Israel's self-defense against terrorists has nothing to do with terrorism-

except as a defense against it.

[Resistance]

97. Let's get this straight

Murdering innocent civilians is not legitimate self-defense. Do you agree or disagree, just with the general statement?

[Jim Sagle]

105. Yes. That's why the IDF kills terrorists - to prevent the murder of

innocents.

[Resistance]

111. The IDF kills civilians too

everyone knows this. The question is: Are these killings blatant murders? Or are the all accidents, mishaps, and "collateral damage"?

Some are collateral damage, and there are probably some that are accidents.

But many are murders; as cold-blooded and ruthless as any Palestinian suicide bomber killing Israeli civilians.

[Jim Sagle]

114. Got any evidence besides Al Jazeer?

[Jim Sagle]

42. The IDF isn't terrorizing anyone. Self-defense isn't terrorism.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

81. Do you have any evidence for this?

[Jim Sagle]

93. No they don't - and I'm factual, not in denial.

[Resistance]

96. The facts are this-

Israeli forces have been invading refugee camps and terrorizing the populations in those camps. Therefore, yes you are indeed denying the facts.

[Jim Sagle]

106. Policing isn't terrorizing.

[Resistance]

113. Invading refugee camps with tanks

is not policing. The Israeli troops aren't even on their own land

[Jim Sagle]

115. Right now that isn't anyone's land - there's no government there.

The Palestinians could declare a state any time. Maybe the majority of them don't want one except for Israel itself.

[Jim Sagle]

41. The IDF isn't murdering anyone. Self-defense isn't murder.

[Resistance]

74. IDF soldiers have murdered many civilians

These murders do not constitute legitimate self-defense, and neither does recklessly bulldozing homes, invading refugee camps, and stealing Palestinian land.

[Jim Sagle]

109. The IDF isn't murdering anyone. Self-defense isn't murder.

[Jim Sagle]

40. The IDF isn't murdering anyone. Self-defense isn't murder.

[Resistance]

75. Yes they have murdered many people.

In cold blood, intentionally, and as ruthlessly as a Hamas bomber blows innocent people up on a bus. The killing sprees that the IDF engages in is not legitimate self-defense.

[Jim Sagle]

95. The IDF haven't been engaged in murder or in killing sprees.

[Resistance]

98. oh.

So, the thousands of Palestinians killed have just all been accidents? Unfortunate mishaps?

"Oops, we accidentally fired a rocket into your refugee camp. So sorry."

"Woops, our guns accidentally went off and took out that kid over there and that woman over there."

"Oops, our bulldozers accidentally destroyed these homes, leaving hundreds of your people homeless."

Right.

[Jim Sagle]

108. Terrorists hide among civilians to increase collateral damage.

[Jim Sagle]

107. Got any evidence besides Al Jazeer?

[Jim Sagle]

39. Like breathing?

[drewb]

4. Be glad?

Yes... I suppose so... BE GLAD!

Little Israel could just as easily nuke them right into the stone ages... Which for Palestinians amounts to last week, but they aren't, they are doing the humane thing. SO BE GLAD!!!

:loveya:

[Jackie97]

5. The reason that Israel doesn't commit genocide by nuking.

It's plain common sense. If Israel nukes the ones right beside them, then two things happen.

1) Along with murdering the entire Palestinian population, they'll be murdering the settlers in the same areas.

2) The radiation would come into Israel and kill many. Those who didn't die would die eventually from getting physically sick.

It's better to commit genocide by starving them out through destroying their agriculture, destroying their water, and making them homeless. They die a slow and more painful than nuking death; while the Israelis live in peace thinking that nothing's going on.

[drewb]

7. Well... That makes me really "Be glad!" in that case...

I am so "Be glad!" today!

:loveya:

All your BE GLAD! are belong to me!

[Forkboy]

9. lol

you're so silly :D

[Gimel]

10. Conventional weapons

Israel could use conventional weapons and easily wipe out the Palestinians. No doubt about that.

[Jackie97]

11. Ahh, but.....

The Israeli people (whether if some believe it or not) do have a conscience. They wouldn't be in favor of directly wiping out the Palestinians. If the Palestinians are to be wiped out, it can't be done with weapons. It must be done by the government in a more silent form, like mass starvation. I actually feel sorry for the Israelis for what type of guilt that they'll go through over what their government is doing in the future.

[Gimel]

15. They can come and work in Israel

as long as they don't carry weapons or hide terrorists in their ambulances and under their clothing carry bomb belts.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jackie97]

19. Correct me if I'm wrong....

But....

Didn't many Palestinians lose their jobs in Israel after the start of the infidata?

Aren't Palestinains losing their rights to simply have a home because of who they are and where they live in the name of fighting terrorism?

Why should I believe that they can work in Israel?

[drdon326]

20. You're serious,aren't you??

"Didn't many Palestinians lose their jobs in Israel after the start of the intifada?"

I'm sure alot probably did.....for a damn good reason.

You seem to be under the incredible delusion that Israel
has to keep the palestinians working while israel is
enduring relentless murderous attacks FROM pal.terrorism.
And you believe that israel is obligated to keep them
in jobs??

Remind me...which specific alternative universe did we
magically end up in??

incredible.

[Jackie97]

30. Israel claims that the Palestinians are in their land.

As long as the land is supposedly Israel's and not the Palestinian's, then Israel has a responsiblity to not discriminate against those on "their land". That would include the Palestinians. That would be like firing a bunch of black people from a bad neighborhood because of black drive by shootings. That wouldn't be considered as acceptable here. Therefore, racism shouldn't be considered acceptable there.

Now, when Palestine becomes their own state (notice my use of the word "when"), then Israel no responsiblity towards those who are not on "their land".

[Jim Sagle]

48. They have no RIGHT to work in Israel.

[Jim Sagle]

47. Palestinian population is rising, not being wiped out.

[Blitz]

59. Yes, of course

The Israeli people are inherently good bu ttheir representative government, which they elect through frequent, free and fair elections and which is as diverse as any on earth is secretly Eeeeeevilllll and has an evil plot to starve a few million Palestinians. Right.

Tell me, Jackie. How many "Palestinians" starved to death last year? How many were born?

[cantwealljustgetalong]

13. doh!...thanks for the common sense explanation...

that helps me understand why Israel doesn't just do what they secretly deep down really want to do and nuke the shit outta them brown people right beside them...

that does not explain why they don't nuke the ones not right beside them though...

like Dean said after Iowa...

YEEEEAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Sagle]

50. Which two percent is that?

:shrug:

[cantwealljustgetalong]

52. 2% tastes better...

but you should stick with skim...

[Blitz]

56. Are you telling me that 2% of the American population are complete morons?

Seems a tad high but if you say so . . .

[Lurking Dem]

64. I wonder what the

"other words" are?

[Blitz]

67. Kumquat?

Laminated?
Aardvark?

The possibilities are endless.

[Lurking Dem]

88. Pantaloons.

Piliated.

Raucous.

[Jim Sagle]

46. Palestinian population is rising, therefore no genocide is taking place.

[Darranar]

49. The world's population is rising, therefore no genocide is taking place.

[Jim Sagle]

51. Sorry, that's a non sequitur.

[Blitz]

55. "Little Israel could just as easily nuke them right into the stone ages"

That's a fact worth remembering. And if Israel were anything like her enemies, there really would be no Palestinians. The fact that Paestinian and other terrorists continue to murder innocent Israelies is a sad and ironic byproduct of the Israelis' own humanity and inherent cultural kindness.

[Darranar]

60. Such a move would be ridiculously stupid on Israel's part.

[Blitz]

65. No, actually

Such a move would be pragmatic. However, Israel acts morally more often than it acts pragmatically, often to a fault and to the detriment of its own people. The prisoner swap with Hezbollah is a good example (morons).

[Darranar]

68. Really?

More likely, the immediate result would be rejection among the international community.

All aid would be cut off. All trade would be cut off. Israel itself would be even more of a pariah state then it is now, completely isolated from everyone else. (That is if it wasn't destroyed militarily in the immediate aftermath.)

[Blitz]

76. And it would last about 1 week

How much did China suffer after Tianamen Square? Not much. What was the international fallout of Russia's destruction of Grozny and everyone in it? Practically none. The rest of the world is quite pragmatic. The fact is that Israel produces technologies and goods that the world wants and will trade for and that the U.S. support of Israel isn't going anywhere. There would be a U.N. condemnation, some EU finger-wagging and that's it. Most of the world would be privately glad to be rid of the prospect of an Arafatistan. As for being destroyed militarily, by who? The Arabs are pragmatic too. They wouldn't lift a finger to help the Palestinians and nobody would be happier to see them gone than Jordan (who would have finished the job itself if it could have).

[Darranar]

80. The rest of the world is quite pragmatic...

which is why they would quickly realize it to be in their interests to contain all aggressive and mad nuclear powers.

Slaughtering a nation's own populations (or the populations of that nation's puppet states) is quite different from annihalating other nations with nuclear weaponry.

[Blitz]

85. Who would use nukes against whom, in your scenario

This bit of fiction is getting better and better.

[Darranar]

87. I was assuming...

some disobedient Arab state; Syria, perhaps, or maybe Iran (not really Arab, but serves for this purpose).

If they were used against the Palestinians it would be even more foolish. Radiation doesn't distinguish between nationalities.

[Blitz]

89. You misunderstand me

Israel wouldn't use (and wouldn't need to use) nukes against anyone. The only way Israel would use nukes would be if its very existance was threatened and no state, Arab or otherwise, is going to put itself on the line to threaten Israel in such a way over the Palestinians. Israel's nukes are a deterrent. The whole point is for them to not be used.

[Darranar]

99. Nice change of the subject...

we weren't discussing the purpose of Israel's nukes, we were discussing what would happen if Israel used them.

You think their motive for not using them is purely moral. I do not.

[Blitz]

100. I was never discussing the possibility of Israel using nukes

Re-read the thread. You didn't comprehend the posts correctly.

[Darranar]

101. Really?

Little Israel could just as easily nuke them right into the stone ages

You replied to that statement, saying how gracious Israel was to NOT utterly destroy the Palestinians and their other enemies.

That started this little sub-thread.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.