Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Palestinians sidestepped in process

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-04 10:43 PM
Original message
Palestinians sidestepped in process
Edited on Thu Apr-15-04 10:49 PM by Classical_Liberal
or Sharon says "The Two State Solution is Dead!"

haron wanted three things: backing for the Gaza withdrawal, U.S. recognition that Israel would hold on to some parts of the West Bank, and a U.S. rejection of the right of Palestinian refugees from the Arab-Israeli war of 1948 and their descendants to return to their lands in what is now Israel........

He got them all by promising eventually to trade something Israelis overwhelmingly do not want anymore: the Gaza settlements and a handful of isolated settlements in the West Bank. And he got them without having to negotiate with the Palestinians.
Sharon is betting that he can use Bush's commitments to stop the withdrawal where he chooses and retain as much as half of the West Bank, a senior Israeli official said. This official compared the proposed withdrawal to a tactic he said baffled him when he first watched an American football game: He said he was astonished to see the ball hiked backward before it moved forward........

But Sharon, arguing that the Palestinians have proved themselves unworthy as peace partners for now, has said his approach closes the door to substantive negotiations and a Palestinian state for years. "It will bring their dreams to an end," he told the Israeli newspaper Maariv recently.........

now that that delusion is dead let's work toward a realistic goal like giving the Palestinians Israeli citizenship.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-04 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. LOL
Oh, my God. That last line is downright hilarious.

"now that that delusion is dead let's work toward a realistic goal like giving the Palestinians Israeli citizenship."

Realistic goal? In what alternative universe? I thought this was I/P, not Sci/Fi.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The biggest opponents of that would be the Palestinians
If the Israelis gave the Palestinians citizenship, the Palestinians would go nuts - because it would signal the Israeli annexation of the territories.

It would also mean the end of the Jewish state, which would piss off a very large number of Israelis, but the fiercest opponents would all be Palestinian.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. This acceptence of the settlements already signals the annexation
of the territories, or didn't you read the article. Sharon will get half the west bank. Ergo no Palistinian state. He said "There dream is dead!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elsaamo Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. What is your definition of annexation?
The plan is for Sharon to move the Israeli troops out of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. You spent much time complaining about incidents like Jenin, which will now, presumably not happen, as the Palistineans will have the right to act as they will in their land. I'm not saying Sharon's idea is good or bad- but it certainly has some potential
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I spent no time complaining about Jenin
Wasn't part of that debate ever.

My definintion of annexation is never removing the certain settlements on the West Bank and keeping half of it permanantly.

Aparently the press agrees.

The conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians is so central to U.S. diplomacy in the region that it cannot help affecting every other policy imperative, including Iraq. Many Arabs, including Iraqis, initially looked upon the U.S. as an honest broker, but its reputation has gradually been sullied. The U.S., for instance, had long opposed the aggressive Israeli colonization of the West Bank and Gaza as an obstacle to a full and fair settlement with the Palestinians. On April 14, however, Bush met with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in Washington and, breaking with longstanding U.S. policy, acquiesced in the permanent annexation by Israel of large swathes of the West Bank. In other words, as of this week, the Bush administration has endorsed the seizure of the land of one party by another in an international dispute.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/04/16/israel/index.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Who cares if the press agrees
The Green Line border is dead. The question remains what the final borders will be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. If the green line border is dead so is two states
Edited on Fri Apr-16-04 07:06 AM by Classical_Liberal
. It is an Indian reservation. The Indians in this country have the right to vote now. What is killing the green line border other than the annexation your friend Mabuto claims the Palestinians will raise holy hell over?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. It is a the makings of a state
However, the Green Line border has been dead for a long time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yes, a multicultural state in Israel
Edited on Fri Apr-16-04 07:36 AM by Classical_Liberal
. The landlocked bantustan that hasn't enough water in it to support the Palestinian independence doesn't qualify.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Dream on
And if the concept of a Palestinian state involving most of the West Bank and Gaza doesn't appeal, then the Palestinians should work together with Jordan and merge with them.

Because merging with Israel ain't gonna happen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Sharon said he expects to keep half of it
Do you not read?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Boy, you should learn to play poker
You clearly need to learn about bluffing and playing a hand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
elsaamo Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Where did that quote come from?
BBC and a couple of other places quote Maariv as saying that, but I searched Maariv, and I haven't found that quote. Do you know where the original quote is?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. no
but I trust the bbc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Sure
Would you prefer the English or Hebrew version?

(It is not exactly as quoted by the BBC in either, but very close)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Whatever you prefer, here are both
English:

"Approval of the plan would be a severe blow to the Palestinians and their dreams"

http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=5659

Hebrew:

"...the plan is a mortal blow to Palestinians and their dreams" 1

http://images.maariv.co.il/cache/cachearchive/05042004/ART683220.html

-----

1. The title of the Hebrew interview (diff. to English) is "Take me seriously".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
18. Sharon's unilateral plan is DOA with or without Bush's blessing
Edited on Fri Apr-16-04 11:08 AM by Jack Rabbit
They probably don't know it yet, but it is.

It is the culmination of Sharon's policy of unilateralism. Sharon has always loathed the very idea of negotiating with any Palestinian as an equal. This has been so since day one. He was there when Begin declared the West Bank and Gaza "an integral part of Israel" and offered the Palestinian people nothing, not even the rights of citizenship, which they knew would be rejected in any case. The entire settlement policy that ensued from Begin's pronouncement and the unilateralism of Sharon's plan is based on the proposition that Jews are better than Arabs and have every right to arrange their lives for them in their own land without their consent or input. That is racism.

There is something obscene about an American and an Israeli meeting to determine the borders of a Palestinian state without any representatives of the Palestinian people present. It is arrogant beyond belief to say that this is how things are going to be and expect the Palestinians -- by which I do not mean Arafat, Qurei or Rantissi but Palestinian cab drivers, construction workers and housewives -- to just go along.

Sharon's plan is fundamentally unjust. It is arrogant and racist. There is no possible way it can lead to anything but more conflict.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. They can't negotiate as equals
The Palestinians don't have a state. The sides are inherently unequal.

Frankly, at this point, all plans for solving this situation are DOA, so Sharon is not exactly out of step with everybody else in that way.

The reason that "an American and an Israeli meeting to determine the borders of a Palestinian state without any representatives of the Palestinian people present," is because the Palestinian leadership is Arafat. He had his chance at peace and rejected it. Other than him, no Palestinian leader is prominent enough to negotiate with.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Please clarify

The Palestinians don't have a state. The sides are inherently unequal.

Not having a state, the Palestinian people are at a disadvantage. However, it is not true that they are inherently unequal. On the contrary, a Palestinian is inherently equal to an Israeli, as are either are to an American, an Iraqi or a South African. All men are born with the same natural rights. The fact that one is born in a nation that has never been organized into a state does not change that.

The democratic outlook holds that human rights are natural. They are not conferred upon individual men by the state as gifts. That man is subordinate to the state and has only what rights the state wishes to confer upon him is the fascist point of view.

That one man by the nature of his birth should be condemned to suffer inequality in his native country is abhorrent. That is what a Palestinian faces. It is called racism.

Frankly, at this point, all plans for solving this situation are DOA, so Sharon is not exactly out of step with everybody else in that way.

This sounds like a problem with leadership. Both sides -- and I emphasize both -- need to replace their leaders with those who are willing to make the political sacrifices necessary to produce a genuine and just settlement. Papering over Sharon's crimes with "oh, well, so who has a better idea?" doesn't cut it.

The reason that "an American and an Israeli meeting to determine the borders of a Palestinian state without any representatives of the Palestinian people present," is because the Palestinian leadership is Arafat.

An American and an Israeli have no business determining unilaterally the borders of a Palestinian state whiteout the consent of the Palestinian people, any more than any Palestinian has the power to determine unilaterally those borders without the consent of the Israeli people. Nothing can give them the moral authority to do so, not even the fact that the Palestinian leader is a murderer and a thief like Arafat. Perhaps people like murderers and thieves. After all, being a murderer and a thief hasn't kept either Sharon or Bush from getting where they are. But I digress.

(Arafat) had his chance at peace and rejected it.

As for Arafat's rejecting peace, Muddle, that's really old. It is also false. Arafat did not sit at the table for eight years during the Oslo process just to win a free vacation to Camp David. He rejected a deal he could not accept. Were I him, I would have rejected it. I may not have left the negotiations, as he did, but I would have said no.

Arafat is a very unsavory man, but he did actively engage in a peace process. Sharon, who is also an unsavory man, has never seen a peace deal he's liked; he was actively undermining Oslo every step of the way.

The two of them can't pass from the scene soon enough to suit me.

Other than (Arafat), no Palestinian leader is prominent enough to negotiate with.

Unfortunately true. However, that does not give Sharon leave to unilaterally expropriate Palestinian territory or Mr. Bush the right to give him permission to do so. It does not give the Israelis the right to go into the occupied territories and boot Palestinians out of their homes to make way for housing in which they cannot live accessed by roads on which they cannot travel.

That is not peace. That is a crime against humanity.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Back to you, Jack
Yes, in terms of politics, the Palestinian people are not equal. They don't have a state, they don't really have an army or even an economy. Hell, most of their infrastructure is reliant on Israel as well. For a similar comparison, I refer you to the negotiations between Ireland and Britain. While Ireland was treated with, they were not treated as equals. Nor should they have been.

Put simply, they were not on equal footing. We are not talking individuals here, we are talking a collective reality.

No, the situation here is not racism, it is mere practicality. For thousands of years, wars have displaced people. That sucks, but it is a reality. No victorious state has ever welcomed back enemies in bulk into their country.

Israel won't be the first either. To do so would destroy the state of Israel. So that is what we are talking about, political reality, not racism.

I would have no problem with both sides appointing new leaders. But Sharon is a war leader. As long as Israel faces war, he will likely stay. If the Palestinian people (yep, the onus is on them) choose a peaceful leader, Israel will respond.

You talk about moral authority, but let's face it, that seldom comes into play in politics. We are talking REAL authority and that Sharon and * have. That is the mistake Arafat has made. He simply bluffed too long.

I don't care if Arafat said no to the negotiations. I care that he walked away. I care that he responded with a war of terror. THAT is how he treated the offer of peace.

It is my guess that down deep Arafat fears peace more than he fears war. I doubt he can run a state and I think he knows that. He would rather die the rebel leader than fail as the first prime minister.

The destruction of Israel would be a "crime against humanity," but I see a lot of folks on this board advocating just that. Forcing the Palestinians to accept borders they don't like is nothing anywhere close.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Response
Your post is full of double standards.

Yes, in terms of politics, the Palestinian people are not equal. They don't have a state, they don't really have an army or even an economy. Hell, most of their infrastructure is reliant on Israel as well. For a similar comparison, I refer you to the negotiations between Ireland and Britain. While Ireland was treated with, they were not treated as equals. Nor should they have been.
Put simply, they were not on equal footing. We are not talking individuals here, we are talking a collective reality.
No, the situation here is not racism, it is mere practicality. For thousands of years, wars have displaced people. That sucks, but it is a reality.

Before beginning, even your counterexample fails. Why shouldn't the British have treated the Irish as equals and with respect? It was just as wrong for them not to have done so. Ireland is not Britain and the British had no more right to colonize that and lord it over the Irish than the Israelis have to colonize the West Bank and Gaza and lord it over the Palestinians.

Again, the disadvantage at which the Palestinians find themselves is because there is no Palestinian state. Nowhere do you deny that Palestinians have equal rights with Israelis simply as a matter of being human, nor can you deny it. It is an elementary fact.

The fact that Israel has a state and the Palestinians do not gives Israel the power, but not the right, to forcibly remove Palestinians from their homes and replace them with Israeli settlements. This policy is not practical. It has nothing to do enhancing Israeli security and even detracts from it. And it is racist. This policy has everything to do with asserting the superiority of a Jew over an Arab.

Often, Mr. Muddle, you decry what happened to the Jews living in Arab countries after World War II. You are right to decry that. It wasn't wrong because Arabs did it to Jews; it was just wrong. It is just as wrong as when Jews do it Arabs. Only a racist ideology can justify can justify the denial of basic rights on the basis of nationality.

One cannot call it wrong and immoral when the white South Africans denied rights to blacks and call it just and practical when the Israelis do the same thing to Palestinians. One cannot call British colonization of the world -- including Ireland -- an violation of the rights of the native peoples and approve the Israelis' use of land beyond her borders for her own benefit at the expense of those who live there.

Papering over the racist nature of Israel's settlement policy with past historical atrocities does not excuse it or make it right. It's another tu quoque argument. No matter what fuzzy math one uses, two wrongs do not make a right.

No victorious state has ever welcomed back enemies in bulk into their country.
Israel won't be the first either. To do so would destroy the state of Israel. So that is what we are talking about, political reality, not racism.

While others may disagree, I am not proposing that the Israelis welcome enemies back into their country. I am merely proposing that they leave the land of their enemies and respect what belongs to somebody else, including their enemies.

If the Palestinians have no right to return to their homes in what is now Israel, then the Israelis have no right to settle Palestinian territory. The Israelis have every right to stop Palestinians from entering Israel and the Palestinian have every right to move freely in the Palestinian territories.

Of course, you may want to denote the territories with the word others prefer, disputed. The way sophists apologizing for Likud use the word, it seems to give Israel the right to claim the land and not the people living on it. Any acre of land is either Israel or it is not. If it is not Israel, then the Israelis have no right to exploit it; if it is Israel, then Israel is obligated to grant citizenship and equal rights to those living there. To do otherwise is racism. Which brings us back to the point: Israel's settlement policy is racist.

On the other hand, we could regard the land as Israel and the people as something else. In that case, instead of resisting an occupation, the Palestinian people have launched a separatist movement. Given that housing in which they cannot live accessed by roads on which they cannot travel is commonplace in territory where they are over 90% of the population, such a separatist movement is more than justified.

I would have no problem with both sides appointing new leaders. But Sharon is a war leader. As long as Israel faces war, he will likely stay. If the Palestinian people (yep, the onus is on them) choose a peaceful leader, Israel will respond.

Again, this is a double standard. The onus is on the Palestinian people to choose a leader who will choose peace, but the Israelis can choose the obstinate Sharon if they please. Is there no onus on the Israelis to choose a leader who will compromise?

The onus is on both people to seek compromise. No one is beyond reproach.

It is my guess that down deep Arafat fears peace more than he fears war. I doubt he can run a state and I think he knows that. He would rather die the rebel leader than fail as the first prime minister.

Guess all you want. I, too, believe Arafat is a failed leader. However, I also believe he is irrelevant and has been for some time.

You talk about moral authority, but let's face it, that seldom comes into play in politics. We are talking REAL authority and that Sharon and * have. That is the mistake Arafat has made. He simply bluffed too long.

All of them have had power for too long. We, the people of America, Israel and Palestine, should take matters into our hands and do something about it. They an unworthy leaders who are beholden to marginal extremists who do not wish to see the problem resolved.

The destruction of Israel would be a "crime against humanity," but I see a lot of folks on this board advocating just that. Forcing the Palestinians to accept borders they don't like is nothing anywhere close.

Yes, the destruction of Israel would be catastrophic. However, that does not mean that Israel's settlement policy is not itself a crime against humanity. Furthermore, to say that the only choice is between a continuous state of occupation and repression and Israel's destruction is simply ludicrous.

There is a resolution to this crisis. It will take a great deal of work on both sides and a great change in many attitudes. It will mean that the religious zealots who now hold sway in America, Israel and the Palestinian Territories will have to be marginalized.

Meanwhile, Sharon's unilateral approach is doomed to failure. It is undertaken because he does not think a Palestinian is somebody with whom he needs to negotiate, but merely somebody to subjugate. This racist approach is the basis of the problem, not the solution. It will do nothing remove the fear Palestinians have of being driven from their homes to make way for Israeli settlements; as long as that fear is justified, Palestinian resistance will also be justified.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Very articulate
You walked through the semantic landmines very well.

L-
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Noon_Blue_Apples Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. back from Montreal and smoking some mount royal

in your honour

shameless props

Bill
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Excellent post, Mr Rabbit...
It's posts like yrs that keep me coming back to this forum :)

Violet...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. So what was your position on apartied
Edited on Sat Apr-17-04 01:34 PM by Classical_Liberal
since you seem to think the English in Ireland is a worthy example for Israel?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. The English in Ireland
Of course, England in Ireland had nothing to do with Apartheid. Nevertheless, when I think of Cromwell's crimes in Ireland, I tend to think of Sharon's crimes in the Palestinian Territories.

Perhaps if one can defend Sharon, one can defend Cromwell just as easily.

From the above link:

The act for settling Ireland was passed by the English parliament in August 1652. While the land was being surveyed the government was deciding who should forfeit land. Degrees of guilt were established and penalties defined. The result was that owners of Irish land, whether they were Catholic, Protestant or Old English were to suffer. Some were dispossessed totally; others forfeited one fifth, one third, two thirds or three quarters of their land depending on whether their part in the rebellion was a major or minor one. They were to be recompensed from forfeited land west of the Shannon by an area equal to the proportion they were entitled to retain. For example, Donogh O’ Callaghan of County Cork forfeited three quarters of his 12,000 acre estate.

That, too, was a case where the English moved in and decalred that they were simply better than the Irish and could do as they pleased with the land and its bounty.

The failure to call that racism is an act of sophistry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Hence the matter of a small proposal...
Edited on Sat Apr-17-04 09:39 PM by Lithos
a modest one at that...

L-
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. One feels that nemesis is hovering nearby studying the proposal. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu May 02nd 2024, 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC