Hamas vows revenge after Israel kills 14 Hamas fighters in Gaza

[papau]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1504&ncid=1504&e=3&u=/afp/20040907/ts_afp/mideast_040907124638

Hamas vows revenge after Israel kills 14 fighters in Gaza

Tue Sep 7, 8:46 AM ET

GAZA CITY (AFP) - Hamas vowed to exact bloody revenge after an Israeli air strike killed 14 of its fighters as they held a military training session in the Islamist movement's Gaza stronghold.

The early morning raid, carried out by combat aircraft, was Israel's first major response to a double Hamas suicide bombing in the southern city of Beersheva last week which slew 16 Israelis, as well as the two bombers.

The militants, all members of Hamas's military wing, the Ezzedin al-Qassam Brigades, were training at a football ground in eastern Gaza not far from the border with Israel, Hamas sources said.

As Hamas vowed to exact revenge, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon'sspokesman said that the movement's Syrian-based leadership was also on the country's list of targets.

The dead and wounded, most of them wearing combat uniforms, were taken to Gaza's Al Shifa hospital where hundreds of Hamas militants, some of them armed and masked, gathered as the news of the attack spread. <snip>

[aquart]

1. Do they have any other reason to exist EXCEPT revenge?

Were they created for anything else? Have they ever done anything else? Serious question.

[number6]

2. they are ... blinded by revenge ....

..created for (to fight for)
anything else? An Independent Palestinian Islamic State.

I myself would support a secular Democratic Independent Palestinian
State

[Djinn]

5. how come

a post detailing that the Israeli government helped to set-up what was the precusrsor to Hamas as a counterweight to Fatah was deleted???? This isn't tinfoil ranting - it's acknowledged by Israel??

[The Magistrate]

7. Probably, Ma'am

Because that assistance was of very little importance. Hamas is an off-shoot of the Moslem Brotherhood, a well rooted popular movement dating back before World War Two, that had shown a great deal of power in Gaza particularly even at the time of the '48 war. The thing was not created by Israel, and would certainly have come into being in its present form without the minimal assistance provided through a very poor calculation by the Israeli security services.

The sad fact is that a number of people pick up on the fact of that minor assistance and seek to run on with it to claims that Hamas is controlled by the Israeli security services to this day, and that therefore the outrages its commits can be blamed on Israeli duplicity, and cannot be viewed as things done by Arab Palestinians at all. The kindest characterization of such notions is that they are putrid drivel; the most honest is that they reflect a delusionary view of the world around us, in which bigotry is a good portion of the operative delusion....

[Djinn]

8. so because other people are bigoted conspiracy heads

that means my post needs to be deleted? - I do not beleive and have never said that Israel has any control/influence on Hamas (with the exception of course of playing right into their hands when they blow up homes or shoot children "accidently")

I'd argue your claim that their assistance in Hamas' early days was of "little importance" - yes some form of Islamic group probably would have arisen without Israeli intervention, particularly after the Iranian Islamic revolution, but what form it would have taken and how popular it would have become is impossible to determine. Hamas benefited not only from direct and indirect funding from Israel but also the PLO's move to Beirut and Israeli suppression of and infiltration of Fatah not to mention the ongoing activities in the OT which meant that Hamas could use welfare and education as a means to increase their profile within the OT.

As for whether this was all a "poor calculation" on the Israeli's behalf depends on what you believe the original intention was - it HAS decreased support for the secular (and more acceptable worldwide) organisations, it has also made the "they want to exterminate us" line more accurate, because Hamas DOES refuse to accept Israel unlike other Palestinian groups and as such it does provide an impetus for aggressive Israeli actions such as the "security fence".

Intelligence organisations to not exist to protect individual citizens but the state itself, without the existence of Hamas et al their would be FAR more international pressure for Israel to give up on "greater" Israel.

None of this is in anyway supportive of the notion that Israel has any influence or involvement with Hamas now.

[Lithos]

9. It was of little importance

Sheikh Yassin founded Hamas in 1987 in Gaza as a Palestinian wing of the Muslim Brotherhood. It was one of several groups of the Muslim Brotherhood which was nominally divided geographically (West Bank, Gaza, Jordan, etc.). The Muslim Brotherhood operated as a peaceful, non-partisan organisation intent more on social outreach.

As an adjunct group to the Muslim Brotherhood, Israel did provide money as part of its aid distribution to develop and improve the social infrastructure as mentioned above.

In 1989, Sheikh Yassin shifted the role of Hamas from a purely non-partisan political effort into a group which also included a military wing as he felt the need to conduct military operations against Israel. The first specific operation was the kidnapping and killing of IDF personnel with the intent of using their corpses as a tool for negotiation. It was following this event that Israel outlawed Hamas.

L-

[Djinn]

11. that's an opinion not shared by many

including plenty ex Israeli intelliegence figures. You make it sound as if the reasons Israel initially assisted Hamas was simply because of their welfare role, nothing could be further from the truth.

Also don't know about this statement "The Muslim Brotherhood operated as a peaceful, non-partisan organisation intent more on social outreach."

Perhaps predominantly (or more to the point "publically") but the various "chapters" of the Brotherhood have utilised violent methods going back to the 40's, before Sayyid Qutb joined in Egypt many brotherhood members had already given up on the "persuasive" methods and had opted for violence - Qutb's influence certainly didn't see them become pacifists - By the time Israel was getting involved they had already assasinated 2 Egyptian PM (largely if not completely due to their positions towards Zionists/Israel) Mahmud Fahmi Nokrashi in 1948 and Sadat in 1981, it's not like Israel thought they were dealing with a bunch of Islamic happy clappies and suddenly had a violent group on their hands.

[Lithos]

12. Israel provided no assistance to Hamas

Following the first militaristic operation. Until that time, Hamas and its immediate predecessors were legitimate, moderate organizations. Sheikh Yassin actually represented a new, extremist element in the group and an element not fully embraced by the Brotherhood. Even at his best, Yassin only drew support mainly from Gaza which showed the great schism within the Muslim Brotherhood based on geographical and political support. The ulama in the OT was much better organized and in control than the ulama and the original Muslim Brotherhood based in Gaza which was in severe disorganization following Nasser's complete domination and destruction of all non-secular activism.

There are several books I would recommend, but they are packed pending the installation of new flooring at hy house.

A fair online history of Hamas is at:

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamashistory.htm

which at least explains Israel's level of support.



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[Djinn]

13. I never said they did

what I disputed was the statement that the Brotherhood/early Hamas were predominantly a peaceful social organisation and that it is clear that Israel knew fine well this was an organisation with (at the very least) ties to violent activists/terrorist (whatever you want to call them).

If two leaders of a neighbouring nation had been assasinated by a group BECAUSE of their lack of adequate aggression towards your own country, would YOU think it was a great idea to start funding an offshoot of said organisation?

[Lithos]

14. Ah,

The Brotherhood was fairly innocuous for most of it's existence. This does not to say that various spin off groups were not.

As memory serves me, the biggest confrontation was internal Palestinian politics between the Brotherhood and Fatah and concerned the control of the Red Crescent board of directors in Gaza as well as efforts to control the universities.

However, I cannot answer with specific facts as the requisite books are packed at the moment. (I know, sounds like excuse 101).

It will be at least a week before I can gain access to them.

L-

[Djinn]

17. the "mainstream" brotherhood had NOT been innocuous

for atleast three decades prior to them setting up in Gaza. Sayyib Qutb was not a "spin off" he was an respected and highly influential leader. They'd assasinated 2 Egyptians for being to friendly with Israel, if they're "innocuous" then so is Al Qaeda.

[The Magistrate]

15. One Or Two Small Notes, Ms. Djinn

It does seem to me you over-rate a little the subtlety, skill, and effectiveness of "special service" efforts at influencing events in other societies.

The factors you mention of power vacuum and other discrediting debilities of the Fatah, and of the continued pattern of Israeli suppressions inn the territories over-run in '67, and of the pattern of "welfare recruitment" employed by Hamas itself to gain popularity, are themselves sufficient to explain the rise of the group, and to suggest other influences were minor.

The idea that the purpose of the Israeli agencies was to raise up a more radical group that could be pointed to decades on really is a little much. At the time Hamas came into being, the secular organizations were wholly rejectionist, showed no sign of ever becoming otherwise, and had a well deserved name for murderous attacks against civilians. The common wisdom at the time remained that organizations based on religion tended to be quietist, and for that reason were to be preferred, from the point of viw of the security services, to secular organizations proclaiming revolutionist principles. It was, after all, religious feelings and leaders that had accounted throughout the twentieth century for the relative impermeability of the Near East to direct Communist influence.

To say it is Hamas that gives credibility to the "they want to exterminate us" line is to put the cart before the horse: such a group does not rise to prominence and instill such feelings in a populace, but rather rises to prominence espousing such a line because that line has great currency within the population that hails it. The uncomfortable fact is that an appreciable proportion of the Arab Palestinian populace is committed to that line, and will support no leadership group that does not proclaim it. This is why Arafat, via groups like the al'Aksa Martyrs, seeks to demonstrate to the people he is really just as rejectionist today as Hamas: he must do this to retain his leadership role. The security barrier is the consequence of the entirity of the events of the preceeding years of the "Second Intafada", in which Hamas has played only a part, to the degree that it is not an attempt to annex another slice of land by way of imposing a well calculated "victor's peace" by unilateral action.

[Djinn]

16. A few small notes back

First can you please not call me Ms Djinn, I really find it patronising whether ot not that's the intention. Djinn is what everyone calls me - it'll do fine.

The idea that the purpose of the Israeli agencies was to raise up a more radical group that could be pointed to decades on really is a little much

Why's that? do you agree with the supposition that Israel really beleived this was a benign organisation?

"The common wisdom at the time remained that organizations based on religion tended to be quietist, and for that reason were to be preferred, from the point of viw of the security services, to secular organizations proclaiming revolutionist principles."

The religious group were also rejectionist (assuming you're meaning rejecting Israel) and had been involved with violent acts against "Zionists" and those that supported them - NOT just fringe offshoots, Qutb was heavilly influential figure within the Brotherhood by the time that is MAINSREAM brotherhood not the fringe groups or offshoots. Israel would have had to have been insanely naive to beleive they were benign - I do not beleive for a second that that was what they thought.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

4. Serious answer...

Hamas garners a fair bit of support amongst the Palestinian people by carrying out the role of a sort of a welfare agency....

Violet...

[IA_Seth]

6. Agreed

I personally believe this is the reason they have so much support among the "common" people.

It seems to be fairly hard to get a large populace to support a violent movement, but when that violent movement is the only one showing compassion it makes it a heck of a lot easier.

Of course, stray IDF bullets do nothing to hinder support.

[Lithos]

10. Agreed

This is also one of the reasons Hezbollah also has support in Lebanon. They provide aid and assistance to groups otherwise left out. Remember Arafat and Fatah do play games of favoritism in order to stay in power, and by definition there will be those who will be left behind.


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[hansolsen]

18. There are an infinite number of Hamas fighters. N/T