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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 06:52 AM
Original message
Fatah executes 'collaborators'
Gunmen belonging to the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, the armed wing of Fatah, Monday shot and killed two Palestinians suspected of collaboration with Israel.

The group said in a leaflet distributed in the West Bank that the two, Fadel Odeh and Amjad Ajaj, had confessed to working for the Shin Bet and assisting in the killing of three Fatah fugitives.

snip

Around noon Monday, the kidnappers brought Ajaj to the main square in the center of Tulkarm in a car.

"They threw the man out of the car, then opened fire at him, killing him immediately," said a shopkeeper. "The man had his hands tied behind his back."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1095650548277
....................................................

new word: jihado-justice

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The Crystal Method Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. Slight clarifcation.
Gunmen belonging to the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, the armed wing of Fatah, Monday shot and killed two Palestinians suspected of collaboration with Israel.

Al Aqsa Martyr's brigades are not the military wing of Fatah. The leaders of Al Aqsa no longer take their orders from Fatah nor Arafat. They have split (hence the term offshoot regularly espoused in the press - but no elaboration is given) because of difference in the implementation of tactics. Al Aqsa promotes the use of suicide bombings while Fatah does not. Tanzim is now the military wing of Fatah (at least the last time I read regarding them they were). So much for reporting accurate news though. Especially from the Jerusalem Post. Who would have thought.

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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Ohhhhh.....thank you so much for the clarification....
so in essence Al Aqsa Martyr's brigades are FREE LANCE murdering terrorist bastards.

My thanks again.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Major Palestinian Terror Attacks Since Oslo
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/TerrorAttacks.html

March 14, 2004 Ashdod 10 killed, 16 wounded Hamas and Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades Twin suicide bombings at port

February 22, 2004 Jerusalem 8 killed, over 60 wounded Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades Suicide bombing on bus

January 29, 2004 Jerusalem 10 killed, 50 wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Suicide bombing on bus
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. And?
So you point out more erroneous reporting?
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XanaX Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. So Arafat doesn't give the orders directly...
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 01:27 PM by XanaX
...He just signs the checks.

Huge difference.

BTW, any links showing the Al-Aqsa "Martyrs" Brigade split from Fatah?

Not that it really has any bearing on those they murder.
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The Crystal Method Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. No Checks in the mail from Arafat.
Al Aqsa has grown extremely militant even by Fatah's standards. Arafat would be wise to avoid any dark allies populated by any members from Al Aqsa.
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The Crystal Method Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Links?
It's a well known fact even to a casual observer of the conflict. However, I'm at work, so if you want me to do your research for you, you will have to wait until I get home so I can dig some up.

I can, however, understand why some people would be confused. Usually when I see the mainstream news reporting on Al Aqsa, almost as an after thought in a low and hushed tone, they will say something on the orderof "loosely affiliated with Arafat's Fatah" or "an offshoot of Fatah" which is still disingenuous since the split is completely severed except for the fact that they have a common foe.

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XanaX Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Yeah, do MY research
You made the allegation. Come up with some proof. NOT Dan Rather style, please.
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The Crystal Method Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I didn't make an allegation.
Allegations are referenced when someone or something is accused of doing something. This implies that they may not have done it.

Facts are different from allegations in that they aren't 'alleged' to be anything. They just are.

So again, if you'll kindly wait, I will do your research for you
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XanaX Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. If you say...
that Al-Aqsa "martyrs" brigades are not affiliated with Fatah, then that is an allegation. Until proof is provided, then it is not considered "fact," but rather an "allegation."

You like to play word games, eh?

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The Crystal Method Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I don't like to play word games when I'm serious about something.
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 03:07 PM by The Crystal Method
So I will not argue with you on the topic of what an allegation really means.

I stated what is a fact and that is that Al Aqsa is not affiliated with Fatah. It's pretty much common knowledge. Like if I said the sky is blue, you should be pretty confident that it is.

I'm not sure why you are getting excited. I will supply the 'proof' when I get home and then we should all be happy.
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XanaX Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. You're hilarious!
"I stated what is a fact and that is that Al Aqsa is not affiliated with Fatah. It's pretty much common knowledge."

It's not a fact just because you say it is.

And if this so-called "fact" of yours is such "common knowledge," why have I never ever run across it---not on pro OR anti-Israel websites?
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The Crystal Method Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I can't answer your question as to why you never "ran" across it.
It is a fact, not because I say it is, but because it is the way it is. I hate talking like Morpheus, but perhaps, if you've done any investigation, this fact would have come as no surprise.

When I get home, I will provide a link and we should both be happy, I would think.
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XanaX Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I've done plenty of looking

and NOTHING to dispute the al-Aqsa/Fatah connection has come up.

So let's see what you can come up with.
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The Crystal Method Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Well my best source is no longer on the internet but I do have others.
It's a shame really. I hope these will suffice.

JERUSALEM, July 31 -- Palestinian fighters set fire to two Palestinian Authority buildings in the northern West Bank city of Jenin early Saturday, accusing officials of collaborating with Israel, according to the group's commander.

The attacks were led by Zakaria Zbeida, the leader in Jenin of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the armed faction affiliated with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah political movement.


Zbeida and about a half-dozen of his men broke into the office of the newly appointed administrative governor at about 3 a.m., poured gasoline on desks and set offices ablaze while a cameraman from al-Jazeera, the Arab satellite network, filmed the attack. The group then torched the offices of the Palestinian intelligence services.

The attacks were visible evidence of the growing conflict between the armed fighters and political leaders within Fatah. A series of more violent attacks by al-Aqsa members took place two weeks ago against Palestinian Authority police stations in the Gaza Strip, prompting Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia to submit his resignation.

Zbeida accused the Palestinian intelligence services of assisting Israel in hunting down Palestinian fighters, becoming the first militant leader to openly confront the government with that allegation. Such rumors have circulated for months in Jenin and Nablus, where Israeli raids and assassinations of fighters have been relentless.

"This message is directed to the intelligence service, to stop them from pursuing the wanted people and collecting information about them," Zbeida said in a telephone interview Saturday morning. "This kind of information will be leaked to the Israelis through their security coordination."

"What is happening is a state of chaos," Qaddoura Moussa, who was appointed governor of the Jenin area last Sunday by Arafat, said in a telephone interview. "These barbaric messages are no way to solve problems."


More at source: Washington Post

--------------------------------------


The initiative to establish the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades took shape in phone conversations with Fatah members in all cities. It did not come about through an order from above.

It is commonly believed that this military wing of Fatah was founded in Nablus. But the four members proudly insist that it really started in Tul Karm, although they don't remember exactly when - days or perhaps weeks after the second intifada broke out.

(snip)

The initiative to establish the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades took shape in phone conversations with Fatah members in all cities. It did not come about through an order from above.

It is commonly believed that this military wing of Fatah was founded in Nablus. But the four members proudly insist that it really started in Tul Karm, although they don't remember exactly when - days or perhaps weeks after the second intifada broke out.

(snip)

Now they have gone back to the original policy of attacks only "within `67." "But if there are any more assassinations of our people by Israel, we will not honor the Green Line and will go back to attacking within the 1948 borders." They will not heed Arafat's appeals not to harm civilians.

(snip)

It is not unusual for criminals of various kinds and those with "dubious family histories" to join the nationalist movements. But how is it that they have succeeded in forcing themselves and their agenda on the entire Fatah movement, and through it, on the entire Palestinian public?

(snip)

M. was still a little jumpy before the meeting. He took the four youths' guns and warned them not to harm the Israeli guest. This is indicative not only of the real danger the meeting posed, but even more so of the reputation the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades have as unpredictable hotheads.

(snip)

The presumed reason for the young man's actions was to send a threat to the Fatah official, who had joined the Preventive Security under its new commander, Zuhair Mansara. Among the jobs of the Preventive Security is to find ways to control these hotheads "who have weapons instead of brains."

The question of who sent him to make the threats remained unanswered.


Source: Amira Hass Ha'aretz


---------------------------------

Although other militant groups, as well as Fatah, agreed to a temporary suspension of attacks on Israeli and Jewish targets in June 2003, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades has not.

Source: BBC

--------------------------------



"The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the Fatah fighters who raise their guns in the face of occupation soldiers and settler herds reiterate their vows of struggle and reiterate they are not committed to any agreements that try to undermine our right to escalate resistance," it said in a statement.

The Brigades are represented by Fatah at the talks.

Al Aqsa's statement was likely to embarrass Arafat, who has approved the Egyptian-drafted truce document and called for ending all attacks on Israeli civilians, including some 200,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza.

(snip)

Only Fatah has endorsed the truce proposal so far.


Source: MiddleEastInfo

------------------------------

Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. Of the PLO-related organizations discussed in thissection, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, is the only one named as an FTO. It has been sodesignated on the grounds that it has claimed responsibility for carrying out suicidebombings against Israeli civilians. The Brigades appears to have sprung upspontaneously, after the start of the latest Palestinian uprising, reportedly formed byTanzim or other Fatah activists who believe in a more aggressive approach to forcingIsrael to end its occupation. Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades members say they do not share theideology of Hamas and PIJ, which purport to seek Israel’s destruction. Brigades memberssay they are interested in a peace process as long as a final settlement results in Israel’sfull withdrawal from the occupied territories and provides for the right of return ofPalestinian refugees.7 The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades does not have a well defined structure and, of thefactions discussed in this section, is the one over which Arafat would appear to have theleast political control. There is no firm evidence that Arafat selected any leaders orcommanders of the Brigades or specifically authorized its formation. According to somepress reports, commanders of the Brigades frequently take issue with Arafat, and Arafat’srepresentatives are constantly debating Palestinian strategy and tactics with the Brigades.8 On the other hand, some point to statements by Martyrs Brigades commanders and PAofficials as supporting the argument that the Brigades are under Arafat’s control. OneBrigades commander told a journalist in March 2002 that “Our group is an integral partof Fatah.”9 Other analysts quote a senior Fatah leader, Hussein al-Sheikh, as saying thatFatah controls the Brigades “to one extent or another.”


7 Biedermann, Ferry. Secular and Deadly: The Rise of the Martyrs Brigades. Salon.com, March19, 2002.

8 Williams, Daniel. A Magnet for Palestinian ‘Martyrs;’ Al Aqsa Brigades Lead New Wave ofAttacks on Israeli Civilians. Washington Post, March 7, 2002

9 Kalman, Matthew. Terrorist Says Orders Come From Arafat. USA Today, March 14, 2002.


Source: CRS Report For Congress

---------------------------------

I'll try to find my original source but I hope this will suffice for now.








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XanaX Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. You're either joking
Edited on Wed Sep-22-04 01:19 AM by XanaX
or completely out of your mind.

Nothing you've provided even comes close to supporting your ALLEGATION that al-Aqsa is indeed separate from Fatah.

Nothing at all.

The most one can say from these articles is that there may be an occasional difference of opinion between the two.


>Your first source calls them "the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the armed faction affiliated with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah political movement"

>The second source you cite refers to "this military wing of Fatah"

>The last source quotes a brigade commander who says they are "...an integral part of Fatah."






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The Crystal Method Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Unfortunately you haven't read everything then.
Because all my sources talk about the distinction made about both groups.

If you are not satisfied, I will do more research for you.

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The Crystal Method Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. The Jewish Virtual Library?
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 01:49 PM by The Crystal Method
You are aware that they are affiliated with the AICE (American-Israel Cooperative Effort)? I'm sure you didn't realize the bias there.

As for Al Aqsa, yes, indeed, they are 'free lancers'. That was the exact point of my previous post. I wished to illustrated and clarify the often fuzzy notion that Al Aqsa is linked to or takes orders from Arafat. Once people realize the facts, they are more inclined to develop better solutions.

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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. You are correct
I don't think I've seen you before, so I'll extend a welcome! :hi:

Don't bother trying to reason with drdon.

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The Crystal Method Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Thank you.
Sometimes my memory doesn't serve so I'm glad when someone will either confirm or correct me.

Thank you for the welcome and your advice is duly noted. I have dealt with 'enthusiastic' posters on other forums. It's something I am quite used to.

:hi:
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. lol
"enthusiasm" as you so diplomatically put it, is in no short supply down here in the I/P forum.

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The Crystal Method Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. LOL.
I'm sure everyone down here is just as 'enthusiastic' as I am!

:evilgrin:
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. FNA right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
28. So how many terrorist thugs can dance on the head of a pin?
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
20. how would you have felt about
resistance fighters in Nazi occupied Europe killing collaborators?

Maybe one day the Palestinians will have a stable nation, a police force, the ability to tax to pay for courts/prisons etc and then they can just kidnap a colloborator overseas, drug him, bring him back for secret trial on exagerrated charges, keep him in solitary confinement for 11 years and once his sentence is served continue persecuting him and keep him a prsioner in a nation he has no desire to be part of.
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The Crystal Method Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Ah. Mr. Vanunu.
Tragedy of hero.

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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. can you imagine how
"certain" posters here would react if an Iranian came forward to tell teh world what he'd seen while working in a nuclear facility in Iran only to go through what Vanunu has - I think it would be rightly condemned as draconian, but according to many here Vanunu was a traitor (or worse) who got what was coming to him (although apparently he should have been hung - well according to certain late non lamented posters)
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The Crystal Method Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. There are double standards everywhere we go.
You just have to spot them and move on really.

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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. That's what I do.
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