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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-04 05:50 PM
Original message
European Spooks Say Mideast Terrorists Needed State Support
Eckehardt Werthebach, former president of Germany’s domestic intelligence service, Verfassungs schutz, told American Free Press that “the deathly precision” and “the magnitude of planning” behind the at tacks would have needed “years of planning.”

Such a sophisticated operation, Werthebach said, would require the “fixed frame” of a state intelligence organization, something not found in a “loose group” of terrorists like the one allegedly led by Mohammed Atta while he studied in Hamburg.


(more)
<http://www.americanfreepress.net/12_16_01/War_Sham/war_sham.html>
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-04 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. In case you are unaware
Christopher Bollyn, the author of that article is a know historical revisionist, holocaust denier and general anti-semite.

Other than that, I'm sure he's a great guy.
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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-04 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. anit semite as in Nazi, or anti semite as in anti Likkud.
???
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. re: Bollyn
I googled Bollyn and could not find one article implicating him as a holocaust denier. In that you apparently believe he is... where did you read this?...source? Being an anti-Likudist is not being anti-semitic any more than being anti-nazi is being anti-German. As for being an historical revisionist...anything is an improvement over the lies promulgated daily by our corporate/government controlled mass media.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. HeHeHe
Lets see. He works for anti-Semitic revisionist rags, Goes to conferences with holocaust deniers, Makes speeches for them, hangs with the likes of David Duke. Is associated with Willis Carto of the Barnes Review and The Spotlight and it successor AFP.

But your right his an objective journalist just trying to get the truth out. Next you will be telling me you googled David Duke didn't see anything about his hatred toward Jews and blacks.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Bollyn+holocaust
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. the fix is in
What other "rags" ask the difficult questions of 9-11? All the "rags" with well recognized names strictly cling to the government version not daring to assign one of their writers to investigate alternative explanations. The fix is in and as repugnant as some of Bollyn's views may be he is not a part of the mass media fix. Which allows him to pry into regions that our CONTROLLED mass media dare not tread. Try to investigate against the grain for a publication like Time magazine and see if you can hold your job. hehehe. good luck.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. The Fix?
What other "rags" ask the difficult questions of 9-11?

Does that mean that Bollyn has credibility in your view, but is only associating himself with revisionist trash because it's the only way to get the truth out?

I think you need a bit of objectivity as well. The major media has asked many difficult questions and got some good and some lousy answers. The reality is, for a sitting president engaged in a war, Bush has not gotten off easy.

All the "rags" with well recognized names strictly cling to the government version not daring to assign one of their writers to investigate alternative explanations.

There are no alternate explanations to investigate; there are only alternate speculations. There are only speculations because there is no evidence that any alternate explanations make sense.

The fix is in and as repugnant as some of Bollyn's views may be he is not a part of the mass media fix. Which allows him to pry into regions that our CONTROLLED mass media dare not tread.

Fix? Are you suggesting collusion between the media outlets to cover-up the bumble-bee theory, the ray gun theory, the demolition theory, the remote control theory? That's quite the conspiracy you got going.

Try to investigate against the grain for a publication like Time magazine and see if you can hold your job.

Time magazine is a news journal, not a SciFi mag.
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-04 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Would you be so kind to offer a direct quotation from Bollyn
that supports your claim? After briefly checking the search results, I found accusations against Bollyn. But no statement of him to support them.

Did he make a statement that can be seen as anti-semitic, and if yes, please cite the statement, and give the source.

I am sure you can substantiate your claim with more than just a list of google search results.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Let me see if I understand your position
Bollyn might be OK if I fail to find a direct quote of him saying something anti-semitic.

But the fact that he works for Willis Carto and has a long association with hate groups like "The Liberty Lobby," "The Barnes Review," "The Spotlight," "Institute for Historical Review" to name a few is something that is to be overlooked because he promotes the 9/11 was an inside job nonsense.

http://www.americanreview.us/carto.htm

In the 1950s, Carto joined the John Birch Society, but was ousted by founder Robert Welch after disputes arose--in short order--between them. In 1954, Carto served as Director of the "Congress of Freedom". He supported the "Joint Council for Repatriation," a "Back-to-Africa" white racist group. He was affiliated with the racist "National Alliance for White People," as well as "Americans for National Security," the "United Congressional Appeal," and the "Save our Schools" group. All of these were rabidly white supremacist, anti-civil rights, racist organizations.

Carto served as the Regional Vice-President of the "We, The People" group and was active in the "Government Educational Foundation." In 1968, he backed George Wallace when Wallace ran for President, running a highly racist-laced campaign favoring segregation and denouncing civil rights efforts. Carto took over the "Youth for Wallace" group and founded its successor, the "National Youth Alliance."

The common theme woven throught Carto's organzations and their publications were/are code words, heavily laced with the typical paranoid conspiracy theories alleging an ongoing, supposedly secret history to the world involving an extended, centuries-old plot by Jews to take over the world, destroy Christianity, destroy the Constitution, and enslave gentiles to do the work of a Jewish elite who would rule the world, as per (Christian interpreted) Biblical prophecies. According to the conspiracy-minded writers, this plot extended back in time to include the Knights Templars, the Illuminati, Freemasons, Jacobins, and other similar "secret societies."

In the more "modern" version of the plot line, the conspirators inevitably turned out to be alternately labeled the Jews, Zionists, international bankers (who had Jewish sounding names), monied elites (who were considered the "super-Capitalists"), and secret "cabals" with various ominous-sounding names.

It is a tortured effort to try to get at how and when anti-Semitism began to permeate these conspiracy theories. For our purposes, it is important to know that the evolution and disseimination of these theories do indeed have a "genealogy"--including such figures as Henry Ford.

For now, however, we will focus on Willis Carto who bought into contemporary American scene these earlier anti-Semitic (and increasingly white supremacist) conspiracy fairy-tales. Along with the anti-Semitism of the more recent Christian origins, ran the German nationalist (Nazi) idea of the so-called "Aryan supremacy." (To set the record straight, "Aryan" refers to a language group, and the only Aryan-speaking people in Hitler's Europe were the Gypsies, whom he promptly sent to the gas chambers. So much for the precision of language used by those who called themselves Aryans to describe the “Aryan race.”)

The theme of white (or "Aryan") supremacy is infused throughout Carto's hate-mongering affiliations. You just have to know that words like "Zionist," "international bankers," "ZOG," (Zionist Occupational Government). "alien other," and other similar code-words, all mean the same thing to the Cartos of the world: that the Jews were/are behind an alleged conspiracy to take over the world and create the ever-fabled “one-world government.”


This is the guy Bollyn works for and has for a while.

I'll not be spending too much effort trying to find some direct quotes from Bollyn to prove he's an anti-semite. The friends he keeps and how he earns a living is all the evidence I need.




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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. he beats the media kiss assers
Isn't it ironic that someone with such lousy credentials is more objective in regards to 9-11 than the entire universe of corporate controlled mass media. Just goes to show you that there is a little bit of good in everyone. I'll even say there is a little bit of good in CIA shill Peter Jennings who forced fed us that insipid stupid drivel of the JFK murder computer simulation. I guess Rather,Concrite et al were up to their noses in shit on that one too. What bureaucrats and media anchors will do to save their asses and their jobs. Don't look for any well healed media people sticking their neck out for a legitimate questioning of that fatefull day soon...its always safety and security first for these Zionist neo con neo liberal kiss assers. Just look at Zionist kiss ass Clinton for example.Oh yeah..Clinton.....sure there were WMDs in Iraq...and save your sorry ass from any legitimate assessment of your murderous incessant bombings of those poor people during your entire tenure.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Please tell me you're kidding
lousy credentials

Lousy was not the word that comes to my mind, Bigot, liar, and scum were words I associated with the likes of him.

is more objective

HELLOOOOOOOOO! Bollyn is a professional historical revisionist. By definition is is not objective. His purpose is to use subjectivity to promote his agenda.



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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. historical revisionism...
So what history do you subscribe to?? Certainly not one that involves consulting the views and research of anyone outside the mass media parameters.Right? Historical revisionism at its finest brought to you by Ruppert Murdoch,the Bush family,CIA and corporate globalists(among others). So we'll probably get their next Zionist shill..Kerry..all to insure that "History" tells us that the "terrorist Arabs" need to be combated by an increased Homeland Security Budget,increased funding in the DOD and more restrictions on our individual liberties.We live in a political and media prescribed correct environment of perpetual historical revisionism.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-04 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Wow demodewd
Edited on Fri Jun-04-04 09:36 PM by LARED
Zionist shill Kerry?? Zionist ass kisser Clinton? I've never seen you use such hyperbole before.

If I didn't know better I'd say you were baiting me to say something? You're starting to sound kinda scary. Next you'll be telling me the Jews control the banking systems and the media.

You're not going to are you?
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. remember the Rothschilds
Certainly they have a decent share of it. The Rothschilds are Jewish aren't they...they have a nice chunk of dough. I support the state of Israel and believe if they are truly threatened that the US should always back them up. But Israel is controlled by extremists and the Likudniks think the Butcher of Beirut ain't extreme enough for them. I think Israel,Britain and the US are the 3 scariest nations on the earth right now. Maybe that will alter some with Kerry if he can involve the EC more ...lets hope so...right?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Hummmm?
Edited on Sat Jun-05-04 07:45 AM by LARED
Yes the Rothschild's are rich, so is Soro. Both are Jewish. So are they just rich Jews or are they rich Jewish conspirators?

Also you need to tell us more about your views on Kerry. Is he a Zionist shill, or the guy that will make the US less scary or both?

I strongly suspect you will be dropping this thread shortly.



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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Let us hope this thread is dropped TNT, lared
I know that YOU wouldn't try to entice someone to say something that can be used to justify getting them banned from DU, but others might. It's happened here before, so those who use tactics from right out of the GOP
book of getting rid of the messenger, might become tempted.

Since you too, are ONLY interested in knowing the truth about 9-11 (okay, maybe YOU aren't interested in learning any more than you already know); let's keep the focus on 9-11 and not on anything that could allow less scrupulous people an excuse run to the Moderators and try to get someone banned.

Know what I mean, Cher?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. You got it all wrong
Edited on Sat Jun-05-04 09:39 AM by LARED
I thought demodewd was trying to bait me into saying he is an anti-semite.

I find it hard to beleive there would be anti-semites on a nice progressive site like DU. :hi:

Of couse it is possible to be anti-Zionist and not be anti-semitic so I hope demodewd will take the time to explain his position.
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. a short incomplete explanation
Its not judaism but Zionism. I really don't have the time to get involved here about it but only to say that it is my opinion that the Zionists in Israel have a vice grip on that country and there is a very vocal minority of Israelis who agree with me. Its also Christian fundamentalism..a prime driving force in our politic that pushes aside reasoned discource and action in the Middle East. And all the neo-cons in the Administration,mostly Anglos but with some very influential Jews(Wolfowitz,Perle,Abrams). What American politician would put his career on the line to really stand up and be very vocal about the Palestinian genocide? I really believe the extremists in Israel won't allow for a reasonable settlement and have aggressive expansionist policies. And that the American politic is forced to toe the line in this regard. It is gravely unfortunate that there are suicide bombers but I believe that the true intentions of the Likudists is drive out the Palestinians...suicide bombers or not. I am not anti-semetic. I have dated Jews,was married to a woman who had Jewish lineage and had many Jews in my fraternity. They are a wonderful culture of people. The world would be much less without them.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Be very, very careful, demodewd. I'm telling you...
there are some people here on DU who use GOP-type tactics to get rid of
certain messengers, and one of their tactics is to bait people into saying something that can be twisted into a case for banishment from DU.
DU needs you; so be careful, please.

NOTE: I DO NOT think that lared is one of those people.

P.S. Does anyone here know if PR spinners at firms like Hill & Knowlton and the Rendon Group get paid like lawyers used to get paid: by the number of words they write?
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. ces't la vie
I'm not going to censor myself to participate on this forum. At any rate if I'm "banished", ces't la vie. I can still look in to read Lared on a daily basis. :D
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. My position? "You make a claim -- you provide proof". Very simple
You did not say he worked for an anti-semite, but that he himself is one. ("Christopher Bollyn, the author of that article is a know historical revisionist, holocaust denier and general anti-semite"). That is a difference. Or do you claim that everyone who works for an anti-semite is one himself?

It is established procedure in discussions that someone who makes a claim has to provide some evidence for his claim. You did not do that, until now.

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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. 1) in case you did not seize the fact
who was the original source of that thought, once again:
Dr. Eckart Werthebach. Bollyn only reported on that.

2) Very often someone who is skeptical of the official 9/11 version is said to be anti-semitic, anti-American, a holocaust denier and so on. Besides the fact that even a holocaust denier can have good ideas, the frequency with which these allegation are put forward let them appear as instrumental. Why do you judge the messenger, not the message?

Your post did nothing to improve your credibility as an honest discussion participant.

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BassettWilliams Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. In this case it IS the messenger
"Bollyn only reported on that." is very hard to accept because all his work, his flood of "reporting" has always been a skewed, myopic and freightening rewrite of history.
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. erroneous post. nt
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 08:55 AM by gandalf
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-04 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. In case anyone here is unaware...
"lared" is a known supporter of the "Wacky Cave People Did It" Conspiracy Theory of 9-11 and general irritant to people who don't buy the BS put out by disinfo agents...whether professional or amateur.

Other than that, I can't say whether or not he's a great (or, even good)
guy. But, it does make you wonder about someone whose discourse technique is to avoid addressing the issue(s) by attempting to discredit
a reporter who merely cited a third party's message.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. merely cited a third party's message.?????
Really????

Bollyn did not just cite someone's message. He takes a quote here or there from that person and spins a message.

Bollyn is a well know historical revisionist. So why would any one trust what he writes?

Let me test your intellectual honesty.

If Ann Coulter wrote a piece that takes some quotes from someone and then spins her revisionist message are you going to defend her? Are you going to say she is merely citing someone message. Or are you going to be honest and say she is most likely omitting some important information or taking the words out of context to spin her tale?

Also you need to review the posting rules. You are stepping way over the line in your personal attack on me.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
26. Locking
After some period of study, I must agree that American Freepress is indeed associated with William Carto, Liberty Lobby and disallow it from any further usage as a news source.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground
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