The Pilots and the Planes: Part 2

[DulceDecorum]

This thread is a continuation of
The pilots and the planes
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=10112&mesg_id=10112

CONCLUSION
When we put the results of the SSDI and the FAA database together,
http://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi/ssdi.cgi
http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/acmain.htm
this is what we have.

FLIGHT 11
John Alexander Ogonowski, pilot, apparently STILL ALIVE.
Thomas Francis McGuinness Jr, copilot, apparently STILL ALIVE.
N 334AA Serial 22332
Registration: Cancelled/ plane destroyed on 1/14/2002

FLIGHT 77
Charles Frank Burlingame, pilot, DECEASED as of September 11, 2001.
David Michael Charlebois, copilot, apparently STILL ALIVE.
N 644AA Serial 24602
Registration: Cancelled/ plane destroyed on 1/14/2002

FLIGHT 93
Jason Matthew Dahl, pilot, apparently STILL ALIVE.
Leroy Wilton Homer Jr, copilot, apparently STILL ALIVE.
N 591UA Serial 28142
Registration: Valid/ PLANE STILL ABLE TO FLY.

FLIGHT 175
Victor Saracini, pilot, DECEASED as of September 11, 2001
Michael Horrocks, copilot, DECEASED as of September 11, 2001
N 612UA Serial 21873
Registration: Valid/ PLANE STILL ABLE TO FLY.

[DulceDecorum]

1. Re-certified?

For those of you who came in late:

We have discovered anomalies and disparities and impossibilities between the Official Story and the the FAA records.
AZCat has attempted to explain one of them away.

Why would someone want or need to be re certified?

I thought those pilot certificates last forever, just like a doctor's certification.
Sure you may need to keep up with a whole lot of stuff to maintain your certification,
but would you really need to start over from the very beginning?
What would make you have to go get re-certified?
Do tell.
I do realize that the FAA is very flexible.

Date of birth change:
To obtain a new airman certificate that reflects a date of birth change, it is necessary that you appear at an FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) for positive identification. A copy of your birth certificate or other legal document that verifies the date of birth change, must be presented to an FAA Inspector.

And I do know that when one applies
For replacement of lost, destroyed, or paper certificates, submit a signed, written request stating your name, date and place of birth, social security number and/or certificate number, and the reason for replacement to the mailing address below;
one must
Allow 4 to 6 weeks for processing. Only one copy of each certificate can be issued. The original date of issue cannot be placed on a replacement certificate.
http://registry.faa.gov/airmen.asp

Does this mean that Mr Victor Saracini and Mr. Jason Dahl,
the flight instructors with bad eyesight,
BOTH recently had to apply for replacement certificates?
Why, that would place them in the same category
as those LIVING HIJACKERS
who say that their papers were stolen along with their identifies!!

But let us revisit Mr. Victor Saracini.

Victor John Saracini
Med First 4/2001 Must have available glasses for near vision
DOI 2/15/94 ATP multi engine land commercial single engine private single engine
A/A320 A/B747-4 A/B757 A/B767 A/CA-212
DOI 5/20/1992 Flight instructor airplane single multi engine land instrument airplane
DOI 4/14/1986 Flight engineer turbojet-powered
DOI 1/30/1984 Ground instructor advanced instrument
DOI 10/22/1983 Mechanic airframe power-plant
http://162.58.35.241/aadatabase/login.asp

From the media and the FAA airman registry database,
we learn that Victor Saracini met his wife Ellen Hildebrande Saracini,
while he was working as a flight instructor at Louisiana Tech from 1980-82
despite the fact that FAA records clearly demonstrate that
he did not get his flight instructors license until 1992,
which is over ten years later.
Saracini first FAA cert is that of a Mechanic airframe power-plant and was issued on 10/22/1983 which is one whole year after he gave up teaching at Louisiana Tech.

AZCat says:
The FAA airman registry database does not list the original dates of the certificates, but instead lists the most recent version of each certificate. The Mechanic Airframe power-plant certificate for Mr. Saracini was last issued on 10/22/1983.
I checked this by running queries on several people I know who have been instructors for years, and the certificate listings for them are only the most recent ones.
This is logical, because if Mr. Saracini stopped being an instructor, he would have had little reason to keep his certificates up to date.

Hmmmmm
Let us take this at face value
and have an second look at one Jason Dahl,
pilot in command of a certain United Airlines Flight 93.
We start by checking in with the FAA database.
Page last updated July 30, 2002

Jason Matthew Dahl
DOI 8/2001 Flight instructor Airplane single and multi engine
Valid only when accompanied by Pilot cert no
Expires 31 Aug 2003
Med First 6/2001
Must wear corrective lenses for near and distant vision
DOI 12/17/1999 ATP Commercial Private single engine land
A/B 727 A/B737 A/B757 A/B767
757 CIR APPCH VMC ONLY
767 CIR APPCH VMC ONLY
DOI 9/20/1985 Flight engineer turbojet-powered
DOI 9/13/1984 Mechanic airframe power-plant
http://162.58.35.241/aadatabase/login.asp

Well, that bears out the allegation
that flight Instructor certificates are only valid for a certain time.
What is interesting about this is that in both cases, the flight instructor certification came AFTER the ATP certification.
I guess that you have to know how to fly the plane yourself
BEFORE
you can teach others how to fly it.
Makes sense to me.

But then again I have a bit of a problem with our Jason Dahl....

Jason Matthew Dahl
DOI 8/2001 Flight instructor Airplane single and multi engine
Valid only when accompanied by Pilot cert no
Expires 31 Aug 2003
Med First 6/2001
Must wear corrective lenses for near and distant vision
DOI 12/17/1999 ATP Commercial Private single engine land
A/B 727 A/B737 A/B757 A/B767
757 CIR APPCH VMC ONLY
767 CIR APPCH VMC ONLY
http://162.58.35.241/aadatabase/login.asp

According to the FAA database,
Jason Dahl got his ATP certificate on 12/17/99.
So how the heck was he teaching BEFORE that?

Many of Dahl’s airline colleagues and former classmates could not hold back their tears. Dahl, who grew up in the Bay Area and graduated from San Jose State University, is best remembered as a family man. Reportedly, he was not scheduled to fly Flight 93, but volunteered so he could go home earlier to be with his family, Honda said. Dahl was 43.
http://www.asianweek.com/2001_10_19/news_dahl.html

The captain of United Flight 93. A fellow pilot told Denver's Rocky Mountain News that the week before the flight, Jason Dahl sent an e-mail seeking another pilot to take the flight on September 11 so that he could spend the day with his family.
http://www.unitedheroes.com/Jason-Dahl.html

Make up your minds willya!

He received a scholarship from Andrew Hill High School and enrolled at SJSU (San Jose State University). Jason served terms as president and vice president of SJSU’s aviation club, the Flying 20. He went on to earn the Vincent E. Morine scholarship, which is considered the department’s top scholarship. Just five years after his 1980 graduation, Jason was hired by United Airlines. Soon he was training other pilots. He lived in Littleton, Colorado.
http://www.engr.sjsu.edu/avtech/dahl.htm

Now, I am willing to let the newspapers off the hook for some things, but that came off a website at San Jose State university and they really ought to know better than Mike Soraghan, Denver Post Washington Bureau.

Sunday, September 16, 2001
American Airlines Flight 93 had taken off from the Newark, N.J., airport at 8:01 a.m. Tuesday, loaded with 11,000 gallons of fuel for the six-hour flight to San Francisco.
At the controls was pilot Jason Dahl, 43, who lived in Ken-Caryl Ranch in Jefferson County. His father took him for flying lessons before he could drive. But lately, he was more likely to be found not in a cockpit but in a classroom, teaching others to fly 757s and 767s. Wanting more time with his teenage son, Matthew, a student at Chatfield High School, Dahl had gone to work at United's pilot training center near the old Stapleton Airport.
Still, instructors have to spend time at the controls. United Flight 93 was the one he picked.
http://www.platsiscreations.com/091101/UA93-crash-events.htm
You read something like that and you come away not knowing what airline JD worked for.

Anyhow,
Jason Dahl was never in the military and all his training was obtained via civilian channels. So we know for a fact that his entire flying career was under the jurisdiction of the FAA.
Jason Dahl obtained his flying instructor credentials in August 2001, which is the month before he died.
And yet it is alleged that he was teaching flying from the 80s which is a clear twenty years before he was permitted to do so by the FAA.

Flying was Dahl's love but family was his life. He rose rapidly through United's pilot ranks, and in 1993 became a "standards" pilot for training and testing other pilots. The job allowed him to spend more time at home with his wife, Sandy, and son, Matthew, 15.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011028flt93dahlbiop8.asp

See what I mean?
In 1993 he was teaching pilots for United Airlines
and he himself only got his ATP certificate in 1999.
That gives us SIX WHOLE YEARS of violations.
And I am not even going to go into the fact that Jason Dahl had restrictions on his own certificates.
But I am so going to mention the fact that Jason Dahl
only got his flight instructor certificate in August 2001
which is only about SIX WEEKS before he died.
And I am going to drag in the assertion that he was only flying on September 11 in order to keep up his flight certification
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part61-57-FAR.shtml
which, apparently is something that
never once bothered him between 1993 and 1999.

AZCat says:
The FAA airman registry database does not list the original dates of the certificates, but instead lists the most recent version of each certificate.
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part61-27-FAR.shtml

So, WHEN did Jason Dahl allow his certificates to lapse?
And WHY did United Airlines allow him to continue flying and teaching others if his certificates had lapsed?

Sec. 61.19 - Duration of pilot and instructor certificates.
(c) Other pilot certificates. A pilot certificate (other than a student pilot certificate) issued under this part is issued without a specific expiration date. The holder of a pilot certificate issued on the basis of a foreign pilot license may exercise the privileges of that certificate only while that person's foreign pilot license is effective.
(d) Flight instructor certificate. A flight instructor certificate:
(1) Is effective only while the holder has a current pilot certificate; and
(2) Except as specified in §61.197(b) of this part, expires 24 calendar months from the month in which it was issued or renewed.
(e) Ground instructor certificate. A ground instructor certificate issued under this part is issued without a specific expiration date.
(f) Surrender, suspension, or revocation. Any certificate issued under this part ceases to be effective if it is surrendered, suspended, or revoked.
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part61-19-FAR.shtml

So, if I am reading this correctly,
the ATP certificate does not have an expiration date unless the holder was qualified in a country that DOES have an expiration date.
The Flight Instructor certificate dependent on the ATP certificate and is valid for two years from the date of issue or renewal.

Well, none of our data appears to demonstrate any renewals, but let us not get into that. Issue = renewal and vice versa.
The point is this
Both of these men were teaching others to be pilots
when they themselves did not know how to fly the crates.
http://www.aopaflighttraining.org/microsoft/articles/article.cfm?artic...

Victor Saracini
DOI 1/30/1984 Ground instructor advanced instrument
DOI 5/20/1992 Flight instructor airplane single multi engine land instrument airplane
DOI 2/15/94 ATP multi engine land commercial single engine private single engine
A/A320 A/B747-4 A/B757 A/B767 A/CA-212

Jason Dahl
DOI 8/2001 Flight instructor Airplane single and multi engine
Valid only when accompanied by Pilot cert no
DOI 12/17/1999 ATP Commercial Private single engine land

Furthermore, Jason Dahl was running a simulator.
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part61-4-FAR.shtml

United Airlines Training Facility
The United Airlines Training Facility at Stapleton is the largest commercial aviation training facility in the world. All United pilots are trained at the facility, and several other carriers as well, most notably Air Force One. In addition, one-third of United's flight attendants are trained in emergency procedures at the facility. The United Airlines Training Facility is in operation 24 hours a day, seven days a week and has almost 800 full-time employees. The United Airlines Training Facility is located at 7401 Martin Luther King Boulevard.

But then again,
it appears that United Airlines just doesn't give a damn.

United Airlines DC-8 crash into the heart of New York City. This was the world's worst air disaster at that time, and for pain and suffering of the victims, it surely ranks at the top for gore and human suffering. Direct cause of the crash was the pilot's incredibly poor performance, which arose from the documented refusal by United Airlines personnel to provide legally required training and competency checks to its crew-members, falsification of its safety records, threats upon federal air safety inspectors who sought report and take corrective actions on these matters. And much more.
http://www.defraudingamerica.com/preventable_airline_crashes.html

Or maybe,
just maybe,
United Airlines just does not know who the heck Jason Dahl was.

•In a letter to the wives stating how United planned to remember the four pilots, the company didn't even get all four pilots' names correct. United wrote: "LeRoy, Homer, Victor and Michael." Instead of Homer, it should have been Jason, for Flight 93 pilot Jason Dahl of Denver.
http://www.southjerseynews.com/issues/september/m090802a.htm

Jason Dahl's brother, Lowell, has said he was not invited to pick up his brother's remains in Pennsylvania.
Some of Dahl's closest family members, including a cousin who oversees the pilot's estate, were prevented from attending the funeral in San Jose, Calif., Dahl's hometown before he moved to Ken Caryl Ranch.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_224...

But then again.....

United Airlines pilot Mark MacKenzie, a 767 captain, lost plenty on Sept. 11.
His close friend Jason Dahl, the man he shared a desk with at United's Denver offices, was captain of the 767 that crashed in Pennsylvania. Reduced flights meant MacKenzie was demoted to smaller planes. Then the husband and father of four was shipped Nov. 7 to the Middle East to fly F-16s as a member of the Air Force National Guard. Three days before he left, MacKenzie spoke with Register correspondent Wayne Laugesen.
<snip>
Tell me a little about your friend Jason Dahl, who was attacked by hijackers while flying his 767 over Pennsylvania.

I went to Jason's memorial service in Littleton (Colo.), and it was amazing how important he was to so many people.
Friends and neighbors all talked about him as the guy you called if you had a problem, because he could fix anything - your car, your plumbing, whatever. He was so devoted to his wife and son that the people from the scheduling office in Chicago knew him personally, and they came to the service. They knew him because he was always hanging out in the scheduling office trying to finesse his schedule in such a manner that he could optimize the amount of time he could spend with his family.
http://www.ncregister.com/Register_News/112001pilot.htm

Which is no small feat considering that the distance between Colorado and Illinois is so great that Denver and Chicago are in different time zones.

[DulceDecorum]

2. Sloppy reporting

September 30, 2001)- - When Rob Quillen took a flight from Denver, Colorado to Newark, New Jersey on September 10, he had no idea that it would be the most memorable flight of his life. He sat next to Captain Jason Dahl who was piloting a Newark to San Francisco flight the next day. Dahl's plane was hijacked by terrorists and crashed in Pennsylvania. Quillen remembered his conversation with Dahl from the night before which began when Dahl noticed his Jeff Gordon shirt. They had discussed their families, NASCAR, Jeff Gordon, and Kansas City. He felt he had a purpose to make it happen-- and he did. Thanks to Rob for allowing me to use his letter on the site.
http://www.gordonline.com/feature/quillen.html

"A week before the Sept.11th tragedy, Rob Quillen boarded a United flight out of Boston bound for Los Angeles on a business trip. As he took his seat, the pilot made his way through the plane greeting passengers. The pilot, Jason Dahl, had flown for United for 12 years --- he had grown up dreaming of being an airline pilot and was living his dream. As Jason passed through the cabin he noticed Quillen, who was wearing a NASCAR Jeff Gordon polo shirt emblazoned with the #24. Jason asked Rob if he worked for the Gordon team. Quillen replied, "No, I am just a big fan"
The two men got to talking and after a few moments, the question came up..."If you knew you were going to die tomorrow, what is the one thing you would want to do?" Jason said that he and his 15 year old son Matt would find a way to attend a NASCAR race and meet Jeff Gordon ... they both were huge fans. At this point, Rob explained to Jason that he would be attending the NASCAR race at the new Kansas Speedway in a few weeks. His PR firm was sending him there and he was sure he could get comp tickets for Jason and Matt. Jason consulted his planner and said "Yes, we could go!" Rob and Jason exchanged business cards and the flight took off with Rob determined to make Jason’s dream come true.
http://kancrn.kckps.k12.ks.us/Harmon/breighm/ksrace.html

Hmmmmmmm

The business trip on September 10 did not start well for Quillen, an account executive for Automatic Data Processing in Lincoln, Nebraska. He was bumped from his New York-bound flight and bused to Omaha to catch another. This journey would take him first to Denver and then to Newark, New Jersey.
Quillen, wearing a Jeff Gordon shirt and counting down the days to his trip to the race at Kansas Speedway on September 30, shuffled onto his United flight in Denver. He settled into his seat for hours of pecking on the laptop.
http://www.gordonline.com/archive/093001.html

LINCOLN, Neb. (AP) -- A man who met the captain of a plane hijacked by terrorists the day before it crashed in Pennsylvania is working to make sure the pilot's dream for his son comes true.
Rob Quillen, 35, of Lincoln, was seated next to Jason Dahl, captain of United Flight 93, on a flight from Denver to Newark, N.J. Dahl was on his way to pilot the plane he was to fly to San Francisco.
Dahl told Quillen how badly his teen-age son, Matt, who was recently diagnosed with epilepsy, wanted to go to a NASCAR race and meet driver Jeff Gordon.
Quillen, an account executive with Automated Data Processing, was scheduled to play host to a customer appreciation event in Kansas City, Kan., for the NASCAR Winston Cup Race on Sept. 30. Quillen had five extra tickets, so he offered two of them to Dahl.
When the plane landed in Newark that night, Quillen told Dahl he would send the tickets as soon as he returned to Nebraska.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/24_APtown.html

OK then,
since we now have no idea
WHEN or even IF,
Quillen and Dahl ever met,
let us check out flights from Denver to Newark on September 10, 2001.

Glick wasn't even supposed to be on the flight. The 31-year-old sales manager and new father from Hewitt, N.J., would have already been in San Francisco for his business meeting but a construction fire at the Newark airport the night before delayed flights.
http://www.platsiscreations.com/091101/UA93-crash-events.htm

NEWARK, New Jersey (CNN) -- A fire at a building under construction at the Newark International Airport forced officials to shut down the airport for just over 30 minutes Monday afternoon.
There were no reports of injuries from the fire.
The fire began around 1:20 p.m. EDT at an administrative building being built at the airport. Fire crews responded quickly and extinguished the blaze, said Steve Coleman with the Port Authority.
"As a result of the fire equipment that responded to that, we were forced to close the airport," said Coleman.
Flights resumed at 2 p.m. EDT, he said.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/09/10/newark.fire/

Aired September 10, 2001 - 14:05 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NATALIE ALLEN, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to another look at that fire in the Newark Airport in New Jersey that has caused many flights to be stopped for the moment. If you noticed, it looks like the smoke is a tad lessened from the significant smoke that this fire was generating just a short while ago.
<snip>
ALLEN: Do you know how much time elapsed? How much will people perhaps be delayed from this today?

COLEMAN: Well, the airport was closed for approximately 35 minutes, so, and typically, this is the slow time of day. So during this period, there shouldn't be too many flights that are delayed. But obviously, with Newark being one of the busiest airports in the country, it's going to take some time to get back on schedule.
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/10/bn.02.html

On Monday, September 10 at about 1 pm, my husband and I flew into Newark, returning from a meeting of the CSWE Commission on Conferences and Faculty Development. We flew past the World Trade Center Towers on our way into Newark, and the plane's landing gear lowered. Suddenly, the landing gear and the plane lifted again, and we were told that we had been diverted to LaGuardia Airport, as there was a fire in Newark Airport. We flew past the Twin Towers again on our way to land at LaGuardia.
There was some confusion when we landed at LaGuardia, and over a period of three hours, we were led off the plane, back on the plane, and then off the plane again. This seemed strange at the time. In light of the events of September 11, we now wonder if the fire in Newark was in any way connected to the terrorist attack which would occur the next day.
http://bpdupdateonline.bizland.com/fall2001/id26.html

Conflicts in Reports About Jeremy Glick
In her book (p. 204), Lisa Beamer writes that Jeremy Glick had planned to fly out to San Francisco for a business meeting the day before, but because of the fire at the airport, his flight had been rerouted to Kennedy International. She said that Glick chose instead to return home and take Tuesday's early flight out of Newark. This was United Flight 93.
She did not present any details about the fire nor even name the airport where this event happened. Airwise News confirms that there was a fire at the Newark airport on September 10, 2001, but it only caused flights to be delayed by 35 minutes.
MSNBC gives a different account. It says that Glick had planned have been on Flight 93 on the day before the attack, but missed the Monday flight after getting stuck in traffic on his way to Newark Airport.
What are we to make of these conflicts? If the bungled sting argument is correct, then we can count on the sting planners to have also attempted a cover-up operation. For this it would suit their purposes to present the appearance that CIA operatives were merely ordinary passengers with no prior intention to be on Flight 93 on the same day. Unfortunately for those engaging in complex scheming and cover-up manufacture, it is difficult to keep all the deceptive stories consistent.
http://members.aol.com/mpwright9/sting.html

And that last statement,
my dear friends,
is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

Next we are going to have some more fun with the BTS database.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=10112&mesg_id=12451&page=

[starroute]

3. You can't rely on the Social Security Death Index

I just started checking through the crew and passenger lists for Flight 11. After 10 or 20 names, I'd only found one listed in the SSDI. Then I started skipping around and entering only the names of the passengers who were 65 or older. Every single one of those came up.

If someone has been receiving Social Security payments, their death *has* to be reported. If it isn't, anyone cashing their checks is guilty of defrauding the government. But when younger people die, their deaths often aren't reported, and apparently in this case, most of them weren't.

[MercutioATC]

4. Save your breath (fingers) Starroute...

...it doesn't matter that you're right, some people still insist on using it as "proof" of a conspiracy. These databases have been discussed repeatedly, and they still creep in as supporting evidence.

:tinfoilhat:

[LARED]

6. The SSDI folks tell you right up front you should not rely on their data

http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com/ssdi/index.html#reasons

The SSDI does not include death records for everyone who has been issued a Social Security Number (card). Common reasons for exclusion include the following:

The death was not reported to the Social Security Administration (SSA).
The death occurred before the Death Master File was maintained in a computer database. About 98 percent of the deaths in this database occurred between 1962 and the present.
The person did not participate in the Social Security program.
Survivor death benefits were (are) being paid to dependents or spouse.
A recent death may not be indexed yet.
Human error. (Before you give up, read the section titled "Missing Entries in the SSDI.")
If you do not find a listing in the SSDI, it does not mean the person is still living, or that the Social Security Administration (SSA) has no records on the deceased. See "Contacting the SSA for Information" for instructions on requesting information on individuals not in the SSDI.

-----

Although this fact has been pointed out to a certain poster about 12 times, it never quirt seems to be grasped.

[DulceDecorum]

9. Won't go near

the conflicting info on
Victor Saracini
or
Jason Dahl
hmmm?

No comment on the flights of the bumblers?
No interest in the plane that was in two places at the same time?

If N591UA could manage to be in two places simultaneously on September 10,
then perhaps its alternate amnesiac self
is the one that is seen landing at O'Hare.

Perhaps N591UA has a multiple personality disorder,
or maybe it simply had a date with the USS Eldridge
on September 11, 2001.

Or then again,
maybe there is another explanation.
http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/story/0,10801,59921,00.html

[DulceDecorum]

8. Yo, starroute

try checking birth records,
driving records,
marriage records,
or school records
for the persons you found were missing from the Social Security Death index.
Betcha good money you won't find any trace of them,
no matter HOW hard you search.

Funny how certain characters fail to register on ANY database whatsoever,
and yet they ALL have been declared dead heroes
and have foundations collecting money for Bush-knows-what.

What is even more interesting is the SHEER AMOUNT of characters
who DO register on the SSDI database,
BUT
were DEAD long before September 11, 2001.
http://www.katespot.com/archives/001309.php

[Bolo Boffin]

5. Still no pictures of the still-flying planes?

What number is "when you've been completely embarrassed, change the thread" on the truth supression technique list, Dulce?

[DulceDecorum]

7. Actually no,

and I learned how to tease from OudeVanDagen
who never ever ever substantiates ANY of his claims.
Your record is almost just as bad, BOLOboffin.

If there is anyone there who is anxious to see pictures of N591UA,
then get yourself to Chicago
and sit calmly where you can monitor flights taking off from O'Hare.
You will see the tail number in due time,
which is more than we can say about the BLACK BOXES and the MUSH.

Rest assured that DulceDecorum will NOT be posting any of those photos,
in the near future.

And even if such a photo were posted,
the word "photo-shop" would come into play.
There is NOTHING to be gained,
at the present time,
from publishing such a photograph.
Ask Joseph Darby.

HEROES WHO BLOW WHISTLES
Seventh, one has to point out and celebrate the individual citizens of courage who chose to tell the truth from inside the belly of the beast.
It's fairly easy for those of us writing screeds and exposes on the "underground" Internet to step forward and take the heat. It's far more difficult for those on the inside, or who were on the inside and still walk the corridors of power, to step up to the truth-plate and tell what they know.
When they do, their revelations are attended to with great interest by the populace precisely because these individuals were at the center of the action and have chosen courageously to reveal what really happened. There are such lesser-known whistle-blowers as Sibel Edmonds, Joseph Darby, Katherine Gun, anonymous souls within the CIA and Pentagon - who have had to deal with threats, loss of their jobs, mass-media denunciations, etc., as they revealed embarrassing secrets involving the Bush Administration.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/06/02_watergate.html
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1905858

[RH]

52. Here's a good idea.

Why not just go to the BTS database?

Show us anywhere that N591UA appears, any time since 9/11.

Should be easy enough.

[DulceDecorum]

10. Wait - wait - don't tell me!!

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE STATISTICS?

Ladies and gentlemen,
creatures from the darkside,
I have a puzzle for you to solve.
It comes in two parts.

First open up the FAA N-number registry page.
http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNum_inquiry.asp

Next go to the BTS site
http://www.bts.gov/programs/oai/airline_ontime_statistics/
and scoll down to where it says DETAILED STATISTICS
Click on the arrival or departure statistics.
Click on the actual arrival or actual departure time.
Click on a major international hub airport.
The September 11 arrival or departure airports
or DCA Reagan National are all excellent choices.
next click on American Airlines and just about any date that comes to mind.
Say September 10,2001
or perhaps the latest available statistics date which would be April 30 2004.

Very good.
For those of you who have difficulty following such directions,
Here are the results for September 10, 2001 and also April 30, 2004.
Take a look at them and then tell me,
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE??

******** ********

Airport: San Francisco, CA - San Francisco International (SFO)
Carrier Code Date (MM/DD/YYYY) Flight Number Tail Number Destination Airport Actual Departure Time

AA 04/30/2004 0016 N320AA JFK 13:01
AA 04/30/2004 0018 N323AA JFK 22:26
AA 04/30/2004 0020 N324AA JFK 15:37
AA 04/30/2004 0038 N391AA DFW 7:37
AA 04/30/2004 0039 N353AA HNL 9:11
AA 04/30/2004 0044 N328AA JFK 7:56
AA 04/30/2004 0046 N3AGAA ORD 11:53
AA 04/30/2004 0150 N5EKAA BOS 22:28
AA 04/30/2004 0178 N5CLAA JFK 13:42
AA 04/30/2004 0194 N5EPAA BOS 14:15
AA 04/30/2004 0196 N5EKAA BOS 7:17
AA 04/30/2004 0316 N4WYAA DFW 14:39
AA 04/30/2004 0376 N449AA DFW 8:22
AA 04/30/2004 0392 N610AA MIA 21:47
AA 04/30/2004 0426 N3ANAA ORD 16:37
AA 04/30/2004 0442 N358AA MIA 12:12
AA 04/30/2004 0566 N227AA DFW 16:58
AA 04/30/2004 0698 N515AA STL 8:59
AA 04/30/2004 0818 N3ACAA ORD 14:21
AA 04/30/2004 0832 N429AA DFW 10:51
AA 04/30/2004 1486 N396AA ORD 9:59
AA 04/30/2004 1538 N4XRAA STL 12:55
AA 04/30/2004 1608 N3CSAA ORD 23:43
AA 04/30/2004 1734 N5EBAA MIA 6:47
AA 04/30/2004 1778 N464AA DFW 0:25
AA 04/30/2004 1804 N364AA ORD 6:30
AA 04/30/2004 1806 N504AA DFW 5:57
AA 04/30/2004 1905 N429AA LAX 6:07
AA 04/30/2004 1907 N283AA LAX 8:18
AA 04/30/2004 1915 N576AA LAX 10:36
AA 04/30/2004 1923 N283AA LAX 12:46
AA 04/30/2004 1931 N576AA LAX 14:56
AA 04/30/2004 1939 N242AA LAX 17:06
AA 04/30/2004 1943 N576AA LAX 19:36
AA 04/30/2004 1994 N344AA DFW 10:08
AA 04/30/2004 2036 N462AA DFW 12:25
The total number of the records found for this query: 36

******** ******** ********

Airport: Boston, MA - Logan International (BOS)
Carrier Code Date (MM/DD/YYYY) Flight Number Tail Number Origin Airport Actual Arrival Time

AA 04/30/2004 0012 N5EHAA LAX 22:22
AA 04/30/2004 0148 N3DDAA LAX 23:47
AA 04/30/2004 0150 N5EKAA SFO 7:01
AA 04/30/2004 0154 N580AA ORD 20:58
AA 04/30/2004 0192 N388AA LAX 6:10
AA 04/30/2004 0194 N5EPAA SFO 22:48
AA 04/30/2004 0196 N5EKAA SFO 15:50
AA 04/30/2004 0222 N388AA LAX 16:09
AA 04/30/2004 0226 N5EGAA SAN 17:16
AA 04/30/2004 0230 N3BRAA SEA 21:53
AA 04/30/2004 0264 N3CVAA LAX 20:51
AA 04/30/2004 0268 N639AA SJC 21:58
AA 04/30/2004 0306 N4WXAA DFW 18:12
AA 04/30/2004 0456 N552AA STL 17:09
AA 04/30/2004 0512 N524AA DFW 15:37
AA 04/30/2004 0572 N575AA FLL 10:05
AA 04/30/2004 0586 N059AA SJU 21:31
AA 04/30/2004 0596 N063AA MIA 10:29
AA 04/30/2004 0636 N448AA ORD 17:41
AA 04/30/2004 0654 N431AA DFW 14:40
AA 04/30/2004 0680 N083AA MIA 16:33
AA 04/30/2004 0696 N4YGAA DFW 23:19
AA 04/30/2004 0818 N3ACAA ORD 0:34
AA 04/30/2004 0828 N4YTAA PBI 14:48
AA 04/30/2004 0836 N508AA MIA 13:48
AA 04/30/2004 0856 N628AA STT 17:27
AA 04/30/2004 0876 N4XAAA ORD 10:15
AA 04/30/2004 0886 N4YLAA ORD 1:29
AA 04/30/2004 1036 N5DNAA LAS 5:57
AA 04/30/2004 1056 N582AA ORD 15:58
AA 04/30/2004 1166 N549AA DFW 13:35
AA 04/30/2004 1254 N512AA PBI 9:49
AA 04/30/2004 1272 N4WKAA DFW 19:58
AA 04/30/2004 1334 N078AA SJU 15:16
AA 04/30/2004 1338 N4XHAA DFW 21:10
AA 04/30/2004 1352 N4XYAA DFW 11:32
AA 04/30/2004 1396 N4XGAA STL 22:11
AA 04/30/2004 1466 N3CKAA ORD 18:58
AA 04/30/2004 1636 N428AA MIA 20:21
AA 04/30/2004 1650 N4WTAA MSY 16:21
AA 04/30/2004 1652 N297AA ORD 23:09
AA 04/30/2004 1884 N219AA MCO 14:27
AA 04/30/2004 1908 N076AA MIA 22:54
AA 04/30/2004 1976 N219AA FLL 23:17
AA 04/30/2004 1992 N5CHAA SJU 18:28
AA 04/30/2004 2010 N484AA MIA 19:16
AA 04/30/2004 2018 N275AA ORD 16:20
AA 04/30/2004 2022 N431AA MCO 22:27
AA 04/30/2004 2044 N479AA ORD 12:44
AA 04/30/2004 2080 N575AA PBI 17:41

AA 04/30/2004 2224 N525AA FLL 14:30
AA 04/30/2004 2276 N550AA ORD 15:30
AA 04/30/2004 2334 N5CYAA SJU 11:13
The total number of the records found for this query: 53

******** ******** ********

Can you see ANYTHING wrong with those statistics?

Here is one hint.
This thread is about the pilots and the ..... PLANES!!!
YES you got it!!!!
But what exactly is WRONG with the planes??

HINT:
The answer can be found on the FAA N-number registry.
http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNum_inquiry.asp
Look closely at the N-Numbers above.
Some of them are mostly NUMBERS
and some of them are mostly ..... LETTERS!!!

Now be a dear and
punch in a few of the N-numbers that are mostly NUMBERS
and then
punch in some of the N-numbers that are mostly LETTERS.

Then come back and tell us all what you just discovered.
Do hurry,
some of us are holding our breath in anticipation.
http://162.58.35.241/e.gov/n-numHelp.asp

And if you like THAT riddle,
and tell me what is wrong with THAT picture,
then maybe You can help solve ANOTHER MYSTERY.

[LARED]

11. DD I figured it out for you

The help link you provided was the key. The N number rules are for those that are registrated aircraft. Not aircraft already registered. You should email the FAA and ask them why their look-up page does not support old N numbers.

Look here as well.

http://registry.faa.gov/ardata.asp

You can download the whole database for yourself

[DulceDecorum]

12. Nonsense, absolute nonsense

LARED says:
The help link you provided was the key. The N number rules are for those that are registered aircraft. Not aircraft already registered. You should email the FAA and ask them why their look-up page does not support old N numbers.

Huh?
What is the difference between
"those that are registered aircraft"
and
"aircraft already registered?"

Those N-numbers are NOT "old" N-numbers.
They are simply NON-EXISTENT.
http://www.aerofiles.com/regs.html

Think about it LARED,
they are called registration NUMBERS
NOT registration LETTERS.

Valid N-Number Instructions:
N-Numbers consist of a series of alphanumeric characters. U.S. registration numbers may not exceed five (5) characters in addition to the standard U.S. registration prefix letter "N". These characters may be one (1) to five (5) numbers (e.g., N12345), one (1) to four (4) numbers and one (1) suffix letter (ex. - N1234Z), or one (1) to three (3) numbers and two (2) suffix letters (N123AZ). To avoid confusion with the numbers one and zero, the letters "I" and "O" may not be used.

An N-Number may not begin with zero. The first zero in a number must be preceded by at least one of the numbers one (1) through nine (9). For example, N01Z is not valid.

Registration numbers N1 through N99 are reserved for Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) internal use and are not available.

The FAA no longer issues numbers beginning with "NC", "NX", "NR", or "NL". On some older aircraft, these registration prefixes may be displayed in accordance with FAR 45.22.
http://162.58.35.241/e.gov/n-numHelp.asp

LARED, the FAA states clearly that one or two suffix letters are permissible.
The flights in question have MORE THAN TWO LETTERS.
THEY ARE NOT VALID N-NUMBERS.
And that is all there is to it.

LARED says:
Look here as well.
http://registry.faa.gov/ardata.asp
You can download the whole database for yourself.

Well dear, I had a look at that particular page.
And nothing on that page indicates that the N-numbers with more than two suffix letters are anything BUT bogus.
http://registry.faa.gov/nnumber.asp

Those planes sporting the bogus N-numbers are very very numerous.
I wonder how they have been slipping by the hard working and well-informed ATC personnel.

[LARED]

13. My mistake

The help link you provided was the key. The N number rules are for those that are registered aircraft. Not aircraft already registered.

Should read

The help link you provided was the key. The N number rules are for those that are registering aircraft. Not aircraft already registered.

[DulceDecorum]

14. Still mistaken

LARED says:
The N number rules are for those that are registering aircraft. Not aircraft already registered.

Those rules apply to ALL US registered aircraft.
What makes you think that the FAA has one set of rules for one group
and another completely different set for Bush-knows-who?

Long a source of confusion for researchers, the plan for aircraft licenses and their display was actually grounded in logic, short-sighted though it may have been. A summary, digested in chronological form from William T Larkins' work in British Air Pictorial in 1954, is presented in hopes of clarifying the waters a bit:

1919 = The Convention for the Regulation of Air Navigation, as part of the October 1919 Peace Conference, created the system of international identification still in use that sets the first letter(s) as country of origin: N for United States, D for Germany, G for Great Britain, SE for Sweden, etc. This system was in use for seven years before it was formally ratified by our government.

1921 = In July the National Aircraft Underwriters Association, a service organization for the insurance industry, established a five-letter licensing code, but this system was voluntary with no governmental teeth in it. Because of indifference from manufacturers (only 33 planes were registered by the end of 1922, and it's doubtful if that number exceeded 50). It was history by 1925, but some aircraft of that period appeared as N-ABCA, N-ABCB, etc; see below.

1935 = Visionaries stepped in and claimed an increase to five numerals would surely do it. This opened up a block from 10000 to 99999, but these, too, showed signs of being gobbled up by the war years.

1946 = Blocks of three and four numerals with the other letter suffixes (except number-lookalikes I and O) were added, and 46000 to 79999 were generally reserved for war-surplus aircraft.

1953 = Double suffixes with three numerals were authorized in March.
http://www.aerofiles.com/regs.html

Just how far back do you want to go LARED?

The Federal Aviation Administration traces its origins to the Air Commerce Act of 1926, but more recently to the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 which established the independent Federal Aviation Agency from functions which had resided in the Airways Modernization Board, the Civil Aeronautics Administration, and parts of the Civil Aeronautics Board. FAA became an administration of the Department of Transportation on April 1, 1967, pursuant to the Department of Transportation Act (October 15, 1966).

Are they flying 1920s biplanes out of these airports?
Has someone been making a movie for the past decade or so?
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part45-22-FAR.shtml

How did they manage to sneak that one
past our diligent and well-informed Air Traffic Control personnel?

WASHINGTON - What began with a phone call on September 11, 2001 now stands as a 24-7 operation at the Federal Aviation Administration.
"We never hung up the phone from that initial phone call...in fact, it still remains online today."
John David Canoles is the FAA's director of emergency operations and communications, a position set up just one month after 9-11.
Now, over 3 years in, the director says his 60-member team is on track.
"If any anomaly is detected in the air traffic system, it can instantly transmitted so that all the effected parties can find out about it at the same time."
Canoles says that communications operation is run by the FAA from a D.C.headquarters facility, helping to keep everyone, from the military to the TSA in the loop.
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/index.php?nid=78&sid=71442

An N-Number may not begin with zero. The first zero in a number must be preceded by at least one of the numbers one (1) through nine (9). For example, N01Z is not valid.
http://162.58.35.241/e.gov/n-numHelp.asp

Airport: Boston, MA - Logan International (BOS)
Carrier Code Date Flight Number Tail Number Origin Airport Actual Arrival Time
AA 04/30/2004 0586 N059AA SJU 21:31
AA 04/30/2004 0596 N063AA MIA 10:29
AA 04/30/2004 1334 N078AA SJU 15:16
AA 04/30/2004 1908 N076AA MIA 22:54

LARED,
do you suppose that those N-numbers qualify as
"anomalies" worthy of the attention of
John David Canoles,
the FAA's director of emergency operations and communications?

[LARED]

15. Why not ask the FAA

BTW you managed to miss this tidbit at the end of the link you provided.


None of these rules was carved in marble, and exceptions were manifold. A notable example is a de Havilland DH-4 that earned the very first license in its duties with the Department of Commerce. It proudly wore N1, even though to abide by its owner's rules it should have been NS1. Because of DoC's practice of reassigning numbers after the sale, destruction, or export of an airplane to another, N1 showed up later on a government Northrop Alpha 2, a Ford 5-AT, a Lockheed 12-A, and a DC-3!

In other instances, a number might be borrowed temporarily by a manufacturer from an inactive company hack for use on a prototype until it had its own license, or a "blue-sky" number might be painted on a new model for photographic or publicity purposes.

Special-request registrations became popular, accounting for the many low-number- plus-suffix registrations, especially after World War Two. If one had the $10.00 fee, one could have just about anything, as long as it was available.

With batch allocations by CAA to regional offices for areal distribution, numbers became cloudy as a logical reference tool, indicating where airplanes were licensed, and not where or when they were built. Additionally, some batches were issued to large manufacturers, which explains how Douglas cornered the N30000 market.



Obviously you are left with two choices.

The N numbers that do not follow the current regulations are either

1. Legit aircraft with numbers what do not make sense because you do not understand the system

or

2. See number 1


Any other options make no sense. What do you believe the N numbers recorded in the database that do not match the present nomenclature are???? Fakes, covert commercial aircraft on secret missions dozens of times a day - everyday. If there is a cover-up why use N numbers that are OBVIOUSLY incorrect per DD?


What do you think this means????? What can it mean?????

Is the end of civilization at hand???? Will DD provide a conclusion???

Will liberals and progressive soon be carted off to the re-education camps??? Will black helicopters swoop in once they find out someone has cracked the N-number code?

Stay tuned boy and girls. as I'm sure the show will continue.

[DulceDecorum]

16. LARED

I have pointed out that the four-letter N-numbers
do NOT fit the parameters described by the FAA.
As such those N-numbers are NOT valid.
Those N-numbers are bogus.
THAT is the reason why the FAA website keeps spitting them out.

This fact lends credence to my oft repeated assertion that
N-591UA is currently being operated under the alias of N594UA.
And at least BOTH United Airlines N-numbers do actually exist.

LARED,
do YOU know why those planes with the bogus N-numbers are being permitted to fly in US airspace?
What is the story with American Airlines?
How come they have so many bogus planes?
And how come the media says that the planes left out of one airport and arrived at another
but the BTS data says something completely different
- as in the case of Delta Flight 1989?

Let us see you actually answer one of those questions and back it up with something worth while, LARED. Call in your "pilot" and "ATC" companions. Let us again hear what they have to say about how laws and regulations do not matter to those in civil aviation.

[LARED]

17. DD

I have pointed out that the four-letter N-numbers do NOT fit the parameters described by the FAA.

What you actually have pointed out is "the four-letter N-numbers do NOT presently fit the parameters described by the FAA"

As shown by the stuff you ignore from your own links that explians how the numbering system works

None of these rules was carved in marble, and exceptions were manifold.

Special-request registrations became popular, accounting for the many low-number- plus-suffix registrations, especially after World War Two. If one had the $10.00 fee, one could have just about anything, as long as it was available

Why not do an investigative type thing and email the FAA, BTS, whomever and ask them about the numbers. I bet you will get a satisfactory answer.

[MercutioATC]

18. .

[vincent_vega_lives]

54. Why not?

Because I'm convinced DubiousDucorum doesn't talk to actual people, just internet persona.

Heh, each reality to their own.

[LoneStar]

20. Those "Zero" N Numbers

I forgot to mention that the tail numbers on the bts report that start with "N" and then a zero are also all cases where American Airlines is using their internal fleet numbers as part of the tail number in it's report to the Bureau of Transportation. Those aircraft you all mentioned were Airbus A-300's.

N059AA on the bts report is N19059 in the FAA Registry (AA Fleet #059)

N063AA on the bts report is N41063 in the FAA Registry. (AA Fleet #063)

N076AA on the bts report is N7076A in the FAA Registry. (AA Fleet #078)

N078 on the bts report is N3407 in the FAA Registry. (AA Fleet #078)

[LoneStar]

19. Odd N Numbers and info on the BTS

DulceDecorum-

I think I can clear up some of your confusion about the odd looking tail numbers in the Bureau of Transportation's On Time reports as well as answer your question about when Flight 93 flew back from San Francisco to Newark.

For some reason AA freqeuntly reports the tail # using their internal fleet number, but there is a way to convert them. The fleet number is the number and two letters between the "N" and the "AA". Based on what I can tell, if the number after the "N" is a "5" then it's a 757, if the number is a "3" it's a 737 and if it's a "4" it's a MD-80 or variant.

Even though the final update was December, 2002 you can still find a lot of these at Bill Harm's old Commercial Jet Aircaft Census website.

http://bird5.bird.ch/bharms/asr_sh00.htm

For instance if I want to know what plane N5BPAA is and I know that the plane is a Boeing 757, go to the 757 page at:

http://bird5.bird.ch/bharms/boeing/b757_t_0.htm

and then if you have a "find" button on your keyboard, look for the middle three numbers (between the "n" and the "aa" ex: find "5BP" and it should scroll right down to the aircraft. N5BPAA is N644AA, the aircraft that operated as Flight 77.

Regarding when the aircraft that operated as United Flight 93 flew back to Newark from San Francisco, east-bound redeye flights that lose a day are reported a little differently. The departure record and the arrival record will both be shown under September 10 since that's when the flight left San Francisco. To see when the flight departed San Francisco you would check departures for United out of SFO for September 10, 2001. To see when the flight arrived in Newark the next morning (Sept 11) , you would check Newark arrivals for United for September 10th, even though the plane actually arrived on the 11th. It goes by the date the flight took off. Do that and you will see that the departure time and arrival times and the elapsed time all match up and so does the tail #.

Hope that helps a little.

[DulceDecorum]

21. Flight 77: Chicago to Newark??

Detailed Statistics > Departure Statistics
Departure Statistic(s): Scheduled Departure Time
Airport(s): ORD
Airline(s): AA
Month(s): September
Day(s): 11
Year(s): 2001
Airport: Chicago, IL - Chicago O'Hare International (ORD)
AA 09/11/2001 0770 UNKNOW EWR 8:44

American Airlines Flight 0770 WAS SCHEDULED
to take off from Chicago O'Hare International Airport at 8:44AM
and to fly to Newark International Airport
on the morning of September 11, 2001.

**** **** **** ****
Detailed Statistics > Arrival Statistics
Arrival Statistic(s): Scheduled Arrival Time
Airport(s): EWR
Airline(s): AA
Month(s): September
Day(s): 11
Year(s): 2001
Airport: Newark, NJ - Newark International (EWR)
AA 09/11/2001 0770 UNKNOW ORD 11:51

American Airlines Flight 0770 WAS SCHEDULED
to arrive at Newark International Airport at 11:51AM
from Chicago O'Hare International Airport
on the morning of September 11, 2001.

**** **** **** ****
Detailed Statistics > Departure Statistics
Departure Statistic(s): Actual Departure Time
Airport(s): ORD
Airline(s): AA
Month(s): September
Day(s): 11
Year(s): 2001
Airport: Chicago, IL - Chicago O'Hare International (ORD)
AA 09/11/2001 0770 UNKNOW EWR 0:00

American Airlines Flight 0770
NEVER TOOK OFF FROM Chicago O'Hare International Airport
on the morning of September 11, 2001.

**** **** **** ****
Detailed Statistics > Arrival Statistics
Arrival Statistic(s): Actual Arrival Time
Airport(s): EWR
Airline(s): AA
Month(s): September
Day(s): 11
Year(s): 2001
Airport: Newark, NJ - Newark International (EWR)
AA 09/11/2001 0770 UNKNOW ORD 0:00

American Airlines Flight 0770
NEVER ARRIVED at Newark International Airport
on the morning of September 11, 2001.

**** **** **** ****

And THAT
is the absolute truth.
http://www.bts.gov/programs/oai/airline_ontime_statistics/

There is a difference between 0770 and 77.
I found 0770,
can you come up with anything better?

[DulceDecorum]

22. Six whole minutes.

The Boston Division of the Federal Bureau of Investigation is seeking the assistance of the citizens of Portland, Maine, in an effort to help identify additional information regarding the activities of MOHAMED ATTA and ABDUL AZIZ AL-OMARI while in Portland. Sometime on Monday afternoon, September 10, 2001, ATTA and AL-OMARI departed Boston, Massachusetts, and arrived in Portland later that same day. The FBI has developed a chronology of the activities of ATTA and AL-OMARI while in Portland. All times are approximate.

Tuesday, September 11, 2001

5:33 am ATTA and AL-OMARI checked out of the Comfort Inn.
5:40 am The 2001 blue Nissan Altima rental car, bearing Massachusetts license 3335VI, entered Portland International Jetport Airport parking lot. It was parked on the first floor directly across from the airport entrance.
5:43 am ATTA and AL-OMARI checked in at US AIRWAYS counter.
5:45 am ATTA and AL-OMARI passed through airport security.
6:00 am ATTA and AL-OMARI departed on Colgan Air en route to Boston, Massachusetts.
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/100401.htm

Now it just WOULD have to be the Boston FBI now, wouldn't it?
The self-same Boston FBI
that framed Salvati
and created a such a big mess for FBI Director Mueller,
that Dubya had to invoke executive privilege
to save his skanky behind.
Which behind?
Either or.
Anyhow,

On Sept. 10, Atta and Alomari left Boston in a rented Nissan Altima and drove 100 miles north to Portland. They spent the night in Room 232 at the Comfort Inn near the airport. Going to Portland to board the connecting flight to Logan, investigators speculate, may have been designed so as not to draw attention to all 10 arriving at the Boston airport at nearly the same time. After passing through the security checkpoint at the Maine airport, and getting their pictures taken by the surveillance camera, they boarded US Airways Express Flight 5930. The 19-seat aircraft departed shortly after 6 a.m. for the 50-minute flight to Boston.
http://www.newsday.com/ny-ushija302392325sep30,0,5027413.story

At 0759 American Airlines Flight 11 took off from Logan headed for Los Angeles. The Boeing 767 had 92 people on board, less than half full. Two minutes later, United Airlines Flight 93 left Newark bound for San Francisco with 45 passengers and crew aboard. At 0810 American Airlines Flight 77 left Washington’s Dulles Airport, headed for Los Angeles with 64 people on the Boeing 757. Finally, at 0814 United Airlines Flight 175 departed Logan for Los Angeles with 65 passengers.
http://www.robins.af.mil/History/FY01/01%20Prologue.htm

So far, so good.

The video of Atta and Alomari has a time-date stamp
indicating that one frame was taken at 5:53AM on September 11, 2001.


Therefore we "know" that Atta and companion were still at the Jetport and had not boarded a plane,
at 5:53AM on September 11. Since the flight from PWR to BOS is alleged to have taken 50 minutes,
and the hijacked plane left Logan at 7:59AM,
the two men must have departed BEFORE 8:10AM.
Let us arrange the flights that actually departed according to the time at which they did so.
Our job is made easy by the fact that there were only two flights out of Portland heading for Boston on that particular day.
AMR Corp reported these planes as being:
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4637, N266MQ, PWM, 6:17
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4757, N313MQ, PWM, 7:39
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4488, N739MQ, LGA, 6:00

So we have two flights from Portland into Logan,
and one flight into LaGuardia
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4637, N266MQ, PWM, 6:17
N266MQ is not Assigned/Reserved. No such plane.
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4757, N313MQ, PWM, 7:39
N313MQ is not Assigned/Reserved. No such plane.
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4488, N739MQ, LGA, 6:00
N739MQ is not Assigned/Reserved. No such plane.

Now, American Eagle is a subsidiary of AMRCorp. It would appear that when AMRCorp submits data to the BTS, it refrains from using the correct FAA N-numbers assigned to that particular aircraft. Nor does AMRCorp settle for a simple substitution of the AMR fleet number for that particular aircraft.
That would be too easy.
American Airlines and American Eagle use a very confusing numbering system which takes a lot of time and effort to decipher.
But look what happens when you change the last two letters from MQ to AE. All three planes check out as being directly connected to American Eagle.
Now, we had discovered from the BTS statistics, that three American Eagle planes actually departed Portand Jetport in Maine on September 11, 2001.

N266MQ which was heading to Logan on 9:11,
appears to actually be N266AE
N266AE is a Saab which is currently being stored at Abilene, Texas.

N313MQ which was heading to Logan on 9:11,
appears to actually be N313AE
N313AE is a Saab which is currently being stored at Abilene, Texas.

N739MQ which was heading to LaGuardia on 9:11,
appears to actually be N739AE.
N739AE is an Embraer 135LR.

Let us take another look at the flights in out of Portland Jetport
and compare them with the arrivals into Boston.

Actual departures out of PWM.
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4637, N266MQ, BOS, 5:28
US, 09/11/2001, 0680, N590US, PHL, 5:47
DL, 09/11/2001, 0321, N908DL, CVG, 5:53
Atta photographed at airport check in counter at 5:53AM
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4488, N739MQ, LGA, 6:00
US, 09/11/2001, 1211, N435US, PIT, 6:29
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4757, N313MQ, BOS, 6:48*
UA, 09/11/2001, 1725, N324UA, ORD, 6:52
US, 09/11/2001, 2161, N420US, PHL, 7:28
DL, 09/11/2001, 1149, N983DL, ATL, 7:39
NW, 09/11/2001, 1851, N1332U, DTW, 8:24

Actual Arrivals into Boston from PWM
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4563, UNKNOW, PWM, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4637, N266MQ, PWM, 6:17
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4757, N313MQ, PWM, 7:39
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4874, UNKNOW, PWM, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4882, UNKNOW, PWM, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4889, UNKNOW, PWM, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4899, UNKNOW, PWM, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4920, UNKNOW, PWM, 0:00

Well then, that narrows it down to two possible flights.
Mr. Atta was photographed in the Portland Jetport at 5:53AM
which means that he could NOT have been aboard
Flight 4637, N266MQ,
which had left for Boston 25 minutes earlier, at 5:28AM.
The only flight out of Portland Jetport
that Mr. Atta could possibly have taken on the morning of September 11, 2001, is
American Eagle 09/11/2001, 4757, N313(AE?) BOS, 6:48.

N313AE is a 1992 Saab, SF-340B, serial number 340B-313,
which is currently being stored in Abilene, Texas.
I am not sure how long it has been there.

The Triennial Aircraft Registration form for N313AE
was mailed to
American Eagle Airlines Inc.
4333 Amon Carter Blvd # MD5494
Fort Worth, TX 76155-2605
on May 18, 2004
and has not been returned by the Post Office.

Yet, the status is listed as VALID.
This smells of military, or covert, involvement.
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=206246
Some planes from Dyess AFB are shuttled to Davis-Monathan AFB,
which is the home of the electronic warfare planes.
Naturally the FBI is close at hand.

DAVIS-MONTHAN AFB, Ariz. - Noseless, wingless, doorless aircraft wait silently in the desert "boneyard," their dreams of flying again slowly disappearing like their parts.
They endure the indignity of rubbernecking tourists, mechanics who strip away their metal and animals who nest in them. Such is the life of some of the 4,500 planes at the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Center at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base.
The aircraft may not enjoy baking in the stifling heat, but visitors love to see them, said Lt. Daniel King, an AMARC spokesman. About 40 people a day tour the facility.
"There's such a wide variety of aircraft stored out here, it's believable," King said.
The B-1 bomber is the latest addition. The facility will store 24 B-1s, some from Dyess AFB in Abilene.
They join endless rows of planes.
AMARC is home to Vietnam-era fighters, B-52 bombers, helicopters and a Navy cargo plane that was stuck in ice almost 20 years. FBI agents use commercial jets in one area for training. King cannot take visitors near those planes.
"They're a little secretive about it," he said.
http://web.reporter-news.com/1998/2002/local/boneyard1016.html

In a distant corner of the Boneyard, the littered wreckage of several assorted planes is the bleakest sight. The FBI uses the carcasses to rehearse airplane hostage rescues, shooting up the aircraft in the process.
No problem, really. When the agents are done, damage repair crews use the battered aircraft to test their skills at patching planes shot up in war zones.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2003/01/06/189997

We have heard that FBI/CIA/NORAD/FEMA exercises were being run on September 11.
We have even heard that one such execrise involved the crashing of planes into buildings,
but let us return to Mr. Atta.

Following is a transcript of the radio communications of American Airlines Flight 11 (AAL11) and United Air Lines Flight 175, which took off from Logan International Airport in Boston and then were crashed into the World Trade Center. The transcripts were obtained by The New York Times.

7:45:48 -- Ground Control 1: American eleven heavy boston ground gate thirty two you're going to wait for a Saab to go by then push back.

7:45:58 -- AAL11: After the Saab cleared to push, and we're gonna need four right today, American eleven heavy.

7:46:09 -- Ground Control 1: American eleven heavy uh understand you need alpha roger. Push back after the Saab is approved.

7:46:15 -- AAL11: O.K. Yeah what I said was we're going to need runway four right today, American eleven heavy.

7:46:21 -- Ground Control 1: American eleven heavy. Roger plan on runway four right.

7:49:20 -- AAL11: American eleven, heavy taxi november.

7:49:23 -- Ground Control 1: O.K. American eleven heavy, just hold right there i'll move you shortly.

7:50:00 -- Ground Control 1: American eleven heavy, you're going to give way to the Dornier and the regional jet on the opposite side. Taxi to the bravo hold point via kilo bravo. Expect runway four right for departure.
http://news.globalfreepress.com/ewing/nytimes_transc_f11_175_mirror.html

So,
Flight 11 had to wait for a Saab to go by before it could push back out of its berth and taxi towards a runway.
if that Saab is 4757, N313MQ,
then our Mr. Atta is cutting it a bit fine.
Jeez Louise, he might just miss hijacking that flight!!!

But it can't be, can it?
7:39AM arrival on Saab.
7:45AM departure on Boeing 767.
That leaves SIX WHOLE MINUTES!!!
RUN ATTA RUN.

The suspected ringleader of last week's terrorist assault came close to missing his American Airlines flight out of Boston and showed up at the gate perspiring, says an American Airlines employee at Logan International Airport.
The gate agent who checked in Mohamed Atta and gave him his boarding pass told the FBI that she remembers him showing up for Flight 11 late, his face covered with sweat, the source says.
"The girl that checked Atta said he was sweating bullets, that he was running late," the employee said. "His forehead was drenched."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24596

Because of an American policy instated just before Sept. 11 to curb baggage-related flight delays, Atta's two checked bags – which had been held up from an earlier flight – were left behind in Boston, says the employee, who requested anonymity for fear of reprisal from the Dallas-based carrier, which continues to gag all employees from talking about the Sept. 11 hijackings. Two of the hijacked flights were American.
As it happens, Atta was the only passenger among the 81 aboard American Flight 11 whose luggage didn't make the flight, American sources confirm. Atta is thought to have piloted the Boeing 767, loaded with some 16,000 gallons of fuel, into the first World Trade Center tower a year ago today.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28904

DAMN those baggage handlers sure can hustle
- if Alomari got to take his luggage.
Why, they must all have been sprinting to that plane together.

[John Doe II]

23. Very good piece of research!

I believe this can be highly important and I'm curious how people are going to react to this. As the research of Rumsfeld's strange lack of urgency the unbelievable travel of Atta and Al-Almori to Portland seems certainly to deserve close attention. Just the simple question: Why go to Portland? Justs to eat at Pizza Hut etc and then almost miss the flight back to Boston? Check out at the airport hotel just ten minutes before checking in (with bags) at the airport? Seems to me like a strange lack of urgency as well! So let's take a closer look!

[DulceDecorum]

27. A closer look

At 5:53 a.m. the following day, a calmer Atta and a man identified by the FBI as Abdulaziz Alomari passed through the metal detector at the Portland, Maine, airport and boarded a plane for Boston's Logan International Airport. A surveillance camera snapped their pictures, freezing the time and place forever.
<snip>
Ordinary hardly would seem to be the appropriate description for two men who, less than three hours after they passed through the Maine airport, helped to commandeer American Airlines Flight 11 out of Boston, piloted it south toward New York City, and, at 8:48 a.m., deliberately crashed it into Tower One of the World Trade Center. In a well-coordinated attack, five hijackers aboard United Airlines Flight 175, also out of Boston that morning, took control of that airplane and at 9:03 a.m. crashed it into Tower Two.
It is unclear why Atta and Alomari were in Portland on Sept. 10. Earlier reports that the terrorists crossed the Canadian border appear now to be incorrect. What is known is that some of the 10 men took rooms in four Boston-area hotels in the days before the hijackings. Their wandering ways of the previous few years were over.
<snip>
On Sept. 10, Atta and Alomari left Boston in a rented Nissan Altima and drove 100 miles north to Portland. They spent the night in Room 232 at the Comfort Inn near the airport. Going to Portland to board the connecting flight to Logan, investigators speculate, may have been designed so as not to draw attention to all 10 arriving at the Boston airport at nearly the same time. After passing through the security checkpoint at the Maine airport, and getting their pictures taken by the surveillance camera, they boarded US Airways Express Flight 5930. The 19-seat aircraft departed shortly after 6 a.m. for the 50-minute flight to Boston.
http://www.newsday.com/ny-ushija302392325sep30,0,5027413.story

On Sept. 11, Atta and Alomari were seen at 5:45 a.m. on a security
camera at the Portland airport, heading toward US Airways Express
Flight 5930, a 50-minute flight that was scheduled to leave at 6
a.m. It was slightly delayed, and they arrived at Logan
International Airport just in time to board American Flight 11
before its 7:59 a.m. departure. Forty-nine minutes later, Flight 11
plowed into the north tower of the World Trade Center.
http://www.redwhiteandblue.org/news/bnws/PGP2.HTM

At 5.53 on Tuesday morning Atta and al-Omari passed through security at Portland Jetport in Maine. They had checked out of their room ($149 for smoking, $159 for non-smoking) and had driven the short distance to the airport in a hired car. The Atlantic sparkled bright blue in the crisp clear light of an early autumn New England morning, the short flight to Boston's Logan International was uneventful. Using their New Jersey drivers licenses as identification, they bought two one-way tickets on a visa card and checked in for American Airlines Flight 11 to Los Angeles . They settled down to wait for Atta's baggage and the men whom they knew were on their way to join them.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/2001review/story/0,1590,624103,00.html

Well then,
it looks like we have a conundrum.
The US sources say that the flight was 50 minutes long and that Atta has to hustle to catch the plane.
The UK source says that Atta checked in with time to spare and settled down to wait for baggage and their fellow hijackers.
How is this possible?

Time to take a closer look.

Detailed Statistics > Airborne Time
Airport(s): PWM
Airline(s): MQ
Month(s): September
Day(s): 11
Year(s): 2001
Airport: Portland, ME - Portland International Jetport (PWM)
MQ 09/11/2001 4488 N739MQ LGA 0051
MQ 09/11/2001 4637 N266MQ BOS 0031
MQ 09/11/2001 4757 N313MQ BOS 0028

Oh my.
We had established that Atta had left on Flight 4637 aboard N313(AE?)
That flight was airborne for only 28 minutes.

Actual departures out of Portland Jetport.
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4757, N313MQ, BOS, 6:48

Actual Arrivals into Boston from Portland Jetport.
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4757, N313MQ, PWM, 7:39

OK,
then if that plane was in the air for only 28 minutes......
6:48 + 28 minutes = 7:16AM
7:39 - 28 minutes = 7:11AM

But, but...
they said 50 MINUTES!!!
And, and ...
the flight that left Portland Jetport for La Guardia,
took about 50 minutes to get there.

Arrival Statistic(s): Actual Arrival Time
Airport(s): LGA
Airline(s): MQ
Month(s): September
Day(s): 11
Year(s): 2001
Airport: New York, NY - LaGuardia (LGA)
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4460, N243MQ, MHT, 6:54
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4462, N709MQ, CLE, 8:37
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4480, N711MQ, RDU, 7:39
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4488, N739MQ, PWM, 7:05****
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4500, N352MQ, PVD, 7:59
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4503, N715MQ, DTW, 8:10
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4530, N713MQ, GSO, 8:49
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4536, N735MQ, RIC, 7:39

Arrival Statistic(s): Wheels-on Time
Airport(s): LGA
Airline(s): MQ
Month(s): September
Day(s): 11
Year(s): 2001
Airport: New York, NY - LaGuardia (LGA)
MQ 09/11/2001 4488 N739MQ PWM 7:01

Arrival Statistic(s): Taxi-in Time
Airport(s): LGA
Airline(s): MQ
Month(s): September
Day(s): 11
Year(s): 2001
Airport: New York, NY - LaGuardia (LGA)
MQ 09/11/2001 4488 N739MQ PWM 0004

Now that plane left Portland Jetport at 6:00AM,
it was airborne for 51 minutes,
it's wheels touch down at 7:01AM,
and it took four minutes to taxi in,
so it arrives at La Guardia at 7:05AM.

Slight discrepancy, but it looks acceptable.
The plane from Portland Jetport to La Guardia pretty much checks out.

But Mr. Atta was NOT going to La Guardia.
Was he?
Sure the plane would have had more fuel
and it would have been such a short flight
and there was even a 6AM flight from Portland Jetport
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4488, N739MQ, LGA, 6:00
but Boston was chosen
because ....
because ....
because it was chosen -- that is why!!

Mr. Atta was supposed to be aboard Colgan Air Flight 5930.
But instead we have narrowed it down to American Eagle 4757.
Colgan Air has a website. Let us go and check it out.

La Guardia Airport (New York City)
Airport Code: (LGA)
Colgan Air operating as a US Airways Express Carrier provides air service from La Guardia International Airport including daily round trip air service to the following cities;
Albany, NY.
Augusta, ME.
Charlottesville, VA.
Manchester, NH.
Hyannis, MA.
Lebanon, NH.
Martha's Vineyard, MA.(Seasonal Service)
Nantucket, MA.
Norfolk, VA.
Portland, ME.

Boston, Massachusetts
Airport Code: (BOS)
Colgan Air operating as US Airways Express Carrier provides air service from Boston's Logan International Airport including daily round trip to the following cities;
Albany, NY.
Augusta, ME
Bar Harbor, ME.
Presque Isle, ME.
Rockland, ME.
Syracuse, NY
White Plains, NY.

But I think that that the webmaster
(or other interested party)
might have recently made an alteration.

Portland, Maine
Colgan Air operating as a US Airways Express Carrier provides daily round trip air service between Boston's Logan International Airport and Portland International Jetport.

Why so little information
on the places you fly to from Portland, Maine?
What happened to La Guardia?
And Philadelphia?
And Pittsburgh?
We know for a fact that you do fly to Pennsylvania.

Departure Statistic(s): Actual Departure Time
Airport(s): PWM
Airline(s): US
Month(s): September
Day(s): 11
Year(s): 2001
Airport: Portland, ME - Portland International Jetport (PWM)

US 09/11/2001 0680 N590US PHL 5:47 Philadelphia International, PA.
US 09/11/2001 1211 N435US PIT 6:29 Pittsburgh International, PA.
US 09/11/2001 2161 N420US PHL 7:28 Philadelphia International, PA.

How come you don't want to list this on your website?
How come you only mention BOSTON?

Oh, well,
I guess that since it is your own website,
and your own Virginia-based airline,
you can do as you please.
I was just wondering WHY
you would WANT to be known as the airline
that ferried the hijackers,
when it currently appears to the rest of us
that you actually did no such thing.

6:00 am ATTA and AL-OMARI departed on Colgan Air en route to Boston, Massachusetts.
The FBI asks anyone who has seen these individuals in Portland, Maine, on the evening of September 10th and/or the morning of September 11th and can provide additional information, contact the Boston FBI at [phone].
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/100401.htm

Anyway,
some of us
will continue worrying about your "predicament"
and that lawsuit hanging over your head
http://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/media/9-11complaints/flt11sample.htm
while others go back to trying to figure out
how a 28 minute flight
behaved the way it did
on September 11, 2001.

1)
If a plane left PWM at 6:48AM,
and traveled to Boston for 28 minutes,
at what time would it land?

2)
If a plane arrived at BOS at 7:39AM
and had traveled for 28 minutes,
at what time did it leave Portland Jetport?

3)
Did you guys switch planes on me?

[LoneStar]

35. Atta's flight from Portand to Boston

"We had established that Atta had left on Flight 4637 aboard N313(AE?)"

No you, Dulce, established that Atta flew on American Eagle.

"Mr. Atta was supposed to be aboard Colgan Air Flight 5930. But instead we have narrowed it down to American Eagle 4757."

Mr. Atta WAS onboard Colgan Air Flight 5930 operating as a US Airways Express flight. It was you, Dulce, who narrowed it down to him being on an American Eagle flight (in spite of several accounts from the media which identify it as a Colgan Airways/US Airways Express flight) simply because you can't find any Colgan Air flights out of Portland listed on the Bureau of Transportation's website. (They're not)

And WHY aren't these mysterious Colgan Airways flights listed? Is is part of some evil sinister government cover-up? No. If you go to the BTS page it clearly states:

"Airline on-time data are reported each month to the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT), Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS) by the 19 U.S. air carriers that have at least 1 percent of total domestic scheduled-service passenger revenues, plus other carriers (Hawaiian Airlines) that report voluntarily."

The 19 carriers required to report on-time statistics to the bts are:

AirTran Airways (FL)
Alaska Airlines (AS)
Aloha Airlines
America West Airlines (HP)
American Airlines (AA)
American Eagle (MQ)
ATA Airlines (TZ)
Atlantic Coast Airlines (DH)
Atlantic Southeast Airlines (EV)
Comair
Continental Airlines (CO)
Delta Air Lines (DL)
ExpressJet Airline (RU)
JetBlue Airways
Northwest Airlines (NW)
SkyWest Airlines (OO)
Southwest Airlines (WN)
United Airlines (UA)
US Airways (US)

Colgan Airways is not required to report their on-time statistics to the BTS. That doesn't mean they don't operate the flights, however. Frontier Airlines, with a hub in Denver, is much larger than Colgan and they don't report on-time stats to the bts either.

"Colgan Air has a website. Let us go and check it out."

"Portland, Maine
Colgan Air operating as a US Airways Express Carrier provides daily round trip air service between Boston's Logan International Airport and Portland International Jetport.

Why so little information
on the places you fly to from Portland, Maine?

What happened to La Guardia?
And Philadelphia?
And Pittsburgh?
We know for a fact that you do fly to Pennsylvania.

Departure Statistic(s): Actual Departure Time
Airport(s): PWM
Airline(s): US
Month(s): September
Day(s): 11
Year(s): 2001
Airport: Portland, ME - Portland International Jetport (PWM)
US 09/11/2001 0680 N590US PHL 5:47 Philadelphia International, PA.
US 09/11/2001 1211 N435US PIT 6:29 Pittsburgh International, PA.
US 09/11/2001 2161 N420US PHL 7:28 Philadelphia International, PA.

How come you don't want to list this on your website? How come you only mention BOSTON?"

Easy, Dulce. Because Colgan Airways is a separate company from US Airways. Colgan Airways operates the flights from Portland to Boston FOR US Airways operating as US Airways Express. The flights from Portland to Philadelphia and Pittsburgh on the September 2001 schedule that you referred to above were being operated by US Airways THEMSELVES as mainline flights, as opposed to being operated by Colgan Airways as commuter jet flights FOR US Airways.

Also you are looking at Colgan's website TODAY and asking why flights which may or may not have been operating THREE YEARS ago are not mentioned. US Airways and it's relationships with it's commuter carriers changes on a day to day basis.

"Oh, well, I guess that since it is your own website, and your own Virginia-based airline, you can do as you please. I was just wondering WHY you would WANT to be known as the airline that ferried the hijackers,
when it currently appears to the rest of us that you actually did no such thing."

I think it only appears that way to you, Dulce, and a few others. Certainly do not include "me" when you refer to "the rest of us" as I am not in agreement with you at all on this matter.

[DulceDecorum]

36. Rebuttal

Lonestar,
you are one of the very few people who has EVER caused me to retact a statement I have made here on the Democratic Underground.
This occured when you pointed out a few details about the N-number numerals of the American Airlines weird BTS ID code. I had mistakenly assumed that the AA numerals matched up to the FAA numbers. This is not so. The AA numerals on their BTS data are all just as suspect as their letters. And I do not know HOW AA is permitted to get away with submitting such crap to a federal agency.
As a matter of fact, I am still wading through statistics trying to compile an accurate portrayal of the actual FAA N-numbers linked to the weird AA codes on the flights of September 11. And I have taken so much asprin for that headache that I might have even have accquired hemophilia.
So when you posted your views on the Portland to Boston flights, I took more care than usual before replying.

I stand by what I have said.
This does not however, diminish my respect for you in any way whatsoever.
I can agree to disagree.

Lonestar says:
"We had established that Atta had left on Flight 4637 aboard N313(AE?)"
No you, Dulce, established that Atta flew on American Eagle.

The day the unthinkable struck at America's heart
FT correspondents recount the terrorism nightmare that fell over America
Published: September 14 2001 20:22GMT | Last Updated: March 4 2002 17:59GMT
.....It was still dark on Tuesday morning when two men of Middle Eastern origin pulled their silver Nissan Altima rental car into the Jetport in the small coastal city of Portland, Maine. Casually dressed, they lit cigarettes for a last smoke in the parking lot before entering the terminal.
Inside, they checked their luggage; one of the bags - bearing a tag with the passenger's name in Arabic - held a how-to-fly manual, a fuel-consumption calculator and a copy of the Koran. Despite a clear sky, the 5:45 AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT FROM PORTLAND was slightly delayed. Not until 6:00am did the men board the plane for the one-hour trip to Boston.
http://specials.ft.com/aoa/FT3L489HRRC.html

The Financial Times says:
Despite a clear sky, the 5:45 AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT FROM PORTLAND was slightly delayed. Not until 6:00am did the men board the plane for the one-hour trip to Boston.
Since American Eagle is a subsidiary of American Airlines,
that statement is not incorrect.
Please note that the Financial Times published that report within three days of the attacks. It has taken DulceDecorum over two years to independently verify that statement as fact.

LoneStar says:
"Mr. Atta was supposed to be aboard Colgan Air Flight 5930. But instead we have narrowed it down to American Eagle 4757."
Mr. Atta WAS onboard Colgan Air Flight 5930 operating as a US Airways Express flight. It was you, Dulce, who narrowed it down to him being on an American Eagle flight (in spite of several accounts from the media which identify it as a Colgan Airways/US Airways Express flight) simply because you can't find any Colgan Air flights out of Portland listed on the Bureau of Transportation's website. (They're not)
.... Because Colgan Airways is a separate company from US Airways. Colgan Airways operates the flights from Portland to Boston FOR US Airways operating as US Airways Express.

Colgan Air and US Airways have a VERY close relationship.
The two companies are so very close that there is virtually no real separation between them.


Let us closely examine the company known as Colgan Air.

Colgan Air dba US Airways Express
Regional airline providing service to more than 30 cities on the east coast.
US Airways
Convenient airline service to 189 destinations throughout North America, the Caribbean and Europe.
http://www.visitportland.com/airtravel.aspx
As far as I have been able to determine, Colgan has never offered a Portland to Boston non-stop flight.
One has always had to make a connection in LaGuardia, Pittsburgh or Dulles or elsewhere. Since Colgan Air is the only US Express carrier working the Portland-Boston route, this does not bode well for the Atta/Alomari story.

US Airways announced that Colgan Air, a small commuter airline based in Manassas, Va., will begin operating as a US Airways Express regional carrier effective Dec. 11 (1999). With the addition of Colgan Air, US Airways will begin offering nonstop flights between Washington Dulles International Airport and two West Virginia cities, Beckley and Bluefield. Colgan Air also will offer new service to Rutland, Vt., and three Maine cities: Augusta, Bar Harbor and Rockland. The New England cities will be served by connecting flights through Boston.
http://washington.bizjournals.com/washington/stories/19...
There is no mention of Portland, Maine.

Today Colgan Air has a highly successful operation as a US Airways code-sharing partner, operating a fleet of 15 Beech 1900s and seven Saab 340s.
Charles (Chuck) Colgan started the original Colgan Air in 1970, operating out of Manassas Airport in Virginia. By 1986 he was operating nine aircraft to 18 cities from Washington's National and Dulles airports. That year he sold the airline to Presidential, one of the many "up-start" airlines following deregulation that survived only a few years before closing down. In 1991, Colgan resurrected the airline with a single Beech 1900, as well as a contract with IBM to serve as a corporate shuttle for its employees.
It initially signed a code-share agreement with Continental, but was unable to grow under the restrictions of the agreement. In 1999 it signed it current agreement with US Airways.
The Colgan Air operations include service as an Essential Air Service (EAS) provider to seven small communities, and the Colgans are very actively involved in supporting the EAS program.
http://www.aviationtoday.com/reports/awards2003.htm

Airport officials had hoped to receive the essential air service grant to bring in Colgan Air of Virginia, another US Airways Express contractor, to replace Chautauqua on June 1. Chautauqua offers three daily flights to Pittsburgh on 30-passenger turbo-propeller planes.
http://specter.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Articles...

Colgan Air, which contracts with US Airways Express, announced in January it
was leaving. It was the only airline to serve the (Lancaster, PA) airport, with three
flights to and from Pittsburgh each day.
Colgan Air's departure eliminated about 20 jobs, including airline staff and
government security personnel.
http://archives.californiaaviation.org/airport/msg26575...

Friday, May 4, 2001
Colgan relies on a $2.54 million federal subsidy to help provide service to
airports in Augusta, Rockland, Bar Harbor and Rutland, Vt. The company's
approximate share of governmental financial aid for the Augusta flights is
$634,000.
McGee said the Bush plan seeks to change mileage guidelines used to decide
how money is distributed. If an airport, such as Augusta's, is within 70
miles of a "small hub" airport, such as Portland's, the subsidy would be
eliminated.
The federal Essential Air Service program, which administers the payouts,
places Augusta at 68 miles from the Portland airport. But the Maine
Department of Transportation, which owns the city-managed Augusta airport,
has determined that the combined Augusta/Waterville service area is 76 miles
from the Portland airport, which still should qualify Colgan for continued
Augusta subsidies.
http://archives.californiaaviation.org/airport/msg14841...

Edwards said Colgan's notice of termination starts a process that will line up either another carrier to serve Lebanon Municipal Airport without a subsidy or a carrier that will do it for a government subsidy of up to $200 per passenger. Currently, 114 airports are subsidized through the Essential Air Service program. Edwards said Colgan Air provides subsidized service in several communities, including Rutland, Vt.
http://www.vnews.com/04012003/1018920.htm

Colgan Air, a family-operated subcontractor for US Airways Express, identified the pilots as Scott Knabe, 39, of Cincinnati, and Steven Dean, 38, of Euless, Texas. Both were based in Hyannis.
<snip>
It was apparently the first fatal crash for the airline, founded by Colgan, a Democratic state senator from Virginia who is up for re-election in November. Calls to his home were not returned. His son, Mike, the company's president, issued a statement mourning the pilots, whom he called "well-respected and well-liked crewmembers." There have been two minor accidents involving Colgan flights, according to the NTSB, which did not involve serious injuries.
On May 21, a Colgan Saab 340B plane was substantially damaged when it was struck by another airplane while taxiing at LaGuardia Airport in New York, injuring a flight attendant. And in 2001, a Colgan Beech 1900 was damaged when it hit a deer after landing in Bar Harbor, Maine.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2003/08/27/2_... /
http://www.aswata.co.id/index.php?op=article_view&id_ne...

As you can see,
Colgan Air is eager to receive subsidies from the US federal government for flights into underpopulated areas.
Having a Virginia Senator as founder of the airline must have been very beneficial to the bottom line of Colgan Air.
Two hundred US dollars per seat per trip, is not too shabby, especially when one considers what the competition is doing to depress the price per seat on more popular routes.
See: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=+site...
See: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=+site...

Let us closely examine the entity known as US Airways Express.

US Airways Group, Inc. (US Airways Group) is a holding company whose operations consist of two main segments, US Airways, Inc. (US Airways) and US Airways Express. US Airways is the main operating arm of US Airways Group. Ten regional carriers provide commuter service under code share agreements with US Airways to operate under the trade name "US Airways Express." Seven of these carriers, CCAir, Chatauqua Airlines, Mesa Airlines, Trans States Airlines, Air Midwest, Colgan Airlines and Shuttle America are independently owned.
<snip>
US Airways "markets the operation of the various Express carriers as one seamless transportation system." US Airways Express customers call the US Airways reservation number or visit the US Airways website to make a reservation.
AFA states:
Only when actually examining the available flights on the computer screen from which to choose is the customer informed that the specific flight is operated by US Airways Express, then finally by the name of the individual carrier.
"All reservations for the flights of the Carriers are provided by contract with US Airways." Since the Carriers do not maintain independent reservations systems, "without the US Airways reservations system, they would be unable to book any passengers." Express carrier tickets are printed on US Airways stock.
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2002/29n026.html

Take a good look at those last two statements.
SINCE THE CARRIERS DO NOT MAINTAIN INDEPENDENT RESERVATIONS SYSTEMS, WITHOUT THE US AIRWAYS RESERVATIONS SYSTEM, THEY WOULD BE UNABLE TO BOOK ANY PASSENGERS.
EXPRESS CARRIER TICKETS ARE PRINTED ON US AIRWAYS STOCK.
Well, that just about wraps it up.
There is NO WAY that Mr. Whoever-he-was could have boarded a Colgan Air flight WITHOUT having involved US Airways Express.

US Airways Express has its own trademark and logo. The Express carriers' aircraft are all painted the same (navy blue top with a grey belly).
AFA states:
The only method by which one may visibly determine which Express carrier company operates a specific individual aircraft is to closely examine a small 6 x 8 inch corporate logo found to the right of the passenger entry door on the exterior sidewall of the aircraft. Notwithstanding this small identification, the US Airways Express logo and livery predominates.
The US Airways inflight magazine "Attache" is placed in the seat pocket on all Express carriers' aircraft, yet the magazine does not identify the individual Express carrier operating the flight. AFA also states that US Airways Express passengers are eligible to accrue frequent flyer miles in the US Airways "Dividend Preferred" program.
The Crew Rest/Lounge facilities are the same for all the Express carriers. "The public contact employees of the Express carriers also wear identical uniforms tailored to their particular job function." The only way to tell which Express carrier employs an individual is to look at the employee's identification card.
Ground operations on the Express carriers are integrated and the ticket and gate counters at airports served by the Express carriers are identified as "US Airways Express." The individual Express carriers are not listed by name anywhere in any of the airports served by US Airways.
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2002/29n026.html

US Aiways Express carriers use US Airways Gates. The carriers do not have any Gates of their own. Once the relationship with the carrier and US Airways ends, then that carrier may no longer use US airways Gates. Colgan Air therefore MUST have left Portland via a US Airways Gate.
See: http://www.portlandjetport.org/inside-terminal.asp

Pursuant to marketing agreements, US Airways handles the advertising for all 10 Express carriers. In addition, US Airways approves the schedules for all US Airways Express service and US Airways Express flight schedules are published in the US Airways' System Timetable. However, all Express carriers are identified by name in the System Timetable and on the US Airways reservations website. Each Express carrier has its own unique range of flight numbers.
US Airways Express has its own trademark and logo. "Because more than one US Airways Express carrier may operate from any given airport, the ticket and gate counters display the US Airways Express logo, and do not distinguish the individual Express carriers by name." The Express carrier's aircraft is painted with the US Airways colors and carries the name "US Airways Express" and the name and/or logo of the individual Express carrier providing the service. Allegheny, Piedmont and PSA each have their own websites, publications, and business cards that identify the individual "operating carrier's trademark and/or logo."
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2002/29n026.html

As far as I have been able to determine, there is not enough traffic out of Portland Jetport to justify the use of more than one US Express carrier. What is also curious is that fact that there does not appear to be ANY US Express non-stop flights from Portland Jetport to Boston.

City Airline Daily Departures
Albany: Continental 4
Atlanta: Delta 2
Boston: Delta 5
Chicago: (O'Hare) American Eagle 2 / United Express 3
Cincinnati: Delta 2
Detroit: Northwest 2
Minneapolis: Northwest 2
NY LaGuardia: American Eagle 2 / Delta 3 / US Airways 4
NY Newark: Continental 3
Philadelphia: US Airways 5
Pittsburgh: US Airways 2
Washington Dulles: United Express 4 / Indepedence Air 6
Washington National: US Airways 3
http://www.portlandjetport.org/Dailty-Route.asp

It must be pointed out however, that this is the system in 2004 and things might have been different in 2001. If anyone has any information demonstrating that US Express/Colgan Air was indeed operating a Portland-Boston flight in 2001, please step forward. Boston FBI need not apply.

Marketing and Advertising
US Airways approves the schedules for all 10 Express carriers. US Airways determines the city pairs each Express carrier flies, taking into account market factors. Occasionally, US Airways will reallocate a city pair from one Express carrier to another. The Express carrier's flight schedules are published in US Airways' System Timetable and are identified by specific flight numbers.
When a customer makes a reservation on the US Airways website, the Express carrier is identified to the customer.
According to Hanley,


ursuant to its marketing agreements with its ten Express carriers, US Airways handles all advertising, distributes flight schedules and handles the Express carriers' promotions and ticket sales functions. In return, the Express carriers adhere to certain US Airways expectations and guidelines for the performance of air transportation services under the US Airways Express brand name.
A. Scheduling
The Express carriers' flight schedules are integrated and published as part of the US Airways system schedule and the individual city schedules. The Express carriers do not publish a separate schedule. The US Airways logo appears on the heading of each schedule on the website. When a customer books a reservation on the US Airways website, and the customer will be flying an Express carrier, the itinerary identifies the carrier as follows: "Flight: US Airways Express flight 3436 operated by US AIRWAYS EXPRESS-PIEDMONT AIRLINES".
If a customer selects the "more information" icon on the itinerary on the website, the flight is identified as a US Airways Express flight and lists the flight number. Further exploration on the website allows the customer to learn about the Express carriers.
The website states,
US Airways Express is a network of ten regional airlines operating under a code share and service agreement with US Airways. This service offers travelers frequent, well-timed flights to US Airways hub airports and cities throughout the U.S., Canada and the Bahamas. Like US Airways, we provide many important benefits, including the convenience of through fares, checked baggage, assigned seating and advance boarding passes. Plus every flight earns a minimum of 500 Dividend Miles for free travel to more than 500 destinations worldwide. More importantly, we provide customers with the same high level of service and reliability they receive on all US Airways flights.
B. Ticketing
Tickets for the Express carriers are printed on US Airways ticket stock.
C. Reservations
Reservations for the Express carriers are centrally handled by US Airways. A customer making a reservation by computer visits the US Airways website. After selecting the departure and arrival city, a list of options appears on the screen. When an Express carrier is listed as an option, it is listed as, "Flight: US Airways Express flight 3740 operated by US AIRWAYS EXPRESS-ALLEGHENY AIRLINES on a DeHavilland Dash 8."
D. Signs and Logos
US Airways Express has its own trademark and logo. The ticket and gate counters display the US Airways Express logo and do not identify the individual Express carriers. The Express carrier's planes are painted with the same color scheme as the US Airways planes (navy blue top with a grey belly). The planes have the name "US Airways Express" on the exterior and the name and/or logo of the Express carrier operating the flight, located on the passenger doorways of the airplane.
VI. Uniforms
All Express carrier employees wear uniforms approved by US Airways.
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2002/29n026.html

Lonestar says:
Colgan Airways is not required to report their on-time statistics to the BTS. That doesn't mean they don't operate the flights, however. Frontier Airlines, with a hub in Denver, is much larger than Colgan and they don't report on-time stats to the bts either.

Lonestar is absolutely correct.
I have said it before and I will say it again.
ALL of the planes involved in the events of September 11, 2001 were CODESHARE.

A code-share flight is one airline sells tickets under its name for a flight operated by a partner airline. A passenger may find, for instance, that their Continental flight to Phoneix is in fact an America West code share flight with America West flight crew on an America West aircraft.
http://www.ityt.com/library/fom-serve/cache/121.html
http://www.aeroseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=86

Waiting in a concourse in Boston one night, a woman walked up to me in a state of obvious fluster trying to find her flight. She was traveling to Amsterdam, she told me, on KLM, and couldn't find her gate. I asked to see her ticket, which sure enough was emblazoned with the familiar powder blue livery of the Dutch airline. The most obvious problem here, though, is that KLM doesn't fly to Boston and never has, despite large lighted signs and announcements on the inter-terminal bus to the contrary. "No," I explained. "You're actually flying on Northwest." Complicating things was the fact her flight operated under two different flight numbers, one each for KLM and Northwest.
Welcome to the world of code-shares, alliances, and partnerships.
http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2002/08/30/askthepi...

In the case of Colgan Air, the ONLY flight numbers availible to it are the assigned US Express Flight numbers. There are NO other numbers.
Colgan Air’s designated US Airways Express flight number range is 5900-5999.
http://www.mpdcltd.com/Colganfact.html
This agrees with the information we have been given by the Boston FBI
who have caused to waste a great deal of time trying to locate
US Airways Express flight 5930 operated by US AIRWAYS EXPRESS-COLGAN AIR.

US Airways is required to report to the BTS and a look at the BTS database demonstrates that US Airways is indeed reporting US Airways Express flights out of Portland Jetport.
That being the case, let us examine all the flights out of Prtland Jetport on September 11, 2001.

Departure Statistic(s): Scheduled Departure Time,Actual Departure Time
Airport(s): PWM
Airline(s): US
Month(s): September
Day(s): 11
Year(s): 2001
Airport: Portland, ME - Portland International Jetport (PWM)
AMERICAN EAGLE
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4396, UNKNOW, ORD, 7:25, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4400, UNKNOW, ORD, 14:20, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4466, UNKNOW, LGA, 11:00, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4482, UNKNOW, LGA, 13:35, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4488, N739MQ, LGA, 6:00, 6:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4494, UNKNOW, LGA, 15:45, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4496, UNKNOW, LGA, 19:50, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4563, UNKNOW, BOS, 11:15, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4637, N266MQ, BOS, 5:30, 5:28
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4757, N313MQ, BOS, 6:45, 6:48
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4874, UNKNOW, BOS, 14:25, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4882, UNKNOW, BOS, 15:00, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4889, UNKNOW, BOS, 18:10, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4899, UNKNOW, BOS, 9:30, 0:00
MQ, 09/11/2001, 4920, UNKNOW, BOS, 12:20, 0:00
DELTA AIRLINES
DL, 09/11/2001, 0321, N908DL, CVG, 5:55, 5:53
DL, 09/11/2001, 0391, N914DL, ATL, 13:45, 0:00
DL, 09/11/2001, 0647, N924DL, CVG, 17:35, 0:00
DL, 09/11/2001, 0825, N912DL, CVG, 9:05, 0:00
DL, 09/11/2001, 1149, N983DL, ATL, 7:40, 7:39
NORTHWEST AIRLINES
NW, 09/11/2001, 1827, N610NW, DTW, 16:05, 0:00
NW, 09/11/2001, 1851, N1332U, DTW, 8:30, 8:24
US AIRWAYS
US, 09/11/2001, 0299, UNKNOW, PHL, 15:35, 0:00
US, 09/11/2001, 0680, N590US, PHL, 5:55, 5:47
US, 09/11/2001, 0856, UNKNOW, PIT, 13:45, 0:00
US, 09/11/2001, 0993, UNKNOW, PHL, 11:35, 0:00
US, 09/11/2001, 1211, N435US, PIT, 6:35, 6:29
US, 09/11/2001, 1479, UNKNOW, PIT, 18:00, 0:00
US, 09/11/2001, 2161, N420US, PHL, 7:30, 7:28
UNITED AIRLINES
UA, 09/11/2001, 1069, UNKNOW, ORD, 17:08, 0:00
UA, 09/11/2001, 1725, N324UA, ORD, 6:50, 6:52

Oh dear.
US Airways Express had no scheduled flights to Boston out of Portland Jetport on September 11, 2001.
What in tarnation was going on there at 5.53AM?
These are the ONLY three flights that left Portland Jetport from the US Airways Express terminal.

US, 09/11/2001, 0680, N590US, PHL, Scheduled 5:55, Actual 5:47
US, 09/11/2001, 1211, N435US, PIT, Scheduled 6:35, Actual 6:29
US, 09/11/2001, 2161, N420US, PHL, Scheduled 7:30, Actual 7:28
Which brings us right back to Square One.
HOW did Atta get to Logan International?
And
WHERE is Boston FBI getting its "intelligence?"

[DulceDecorum]

Addendum

I went back to my favorite database
http://www.bts.gov/programs/airline_information/airline_ontime_statistics/
and clicked on the FLIGHT NUMBER button.
Then I selected US Airways and 5930 which is the Colgan number for the Portland-Boston flight about which Boston FBI has told us so much.
I requested the results from September 1, 2000 to September 1 2002.
Here are the results of that search.

Summary Statistics
Airline: US Airways (US)
Flight Number: 5930
Time period: September 1, 2000 to September 1, 2002
No data found for the above selection. Please click your browser's Back button or ALT+Left Arrow to return to the previous page and try again.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DulceDecorum]

39. Furthermore

December 11, 1999, Colgan Air severed the agreement with Continental Airlines and started operating under a code-share and service agreement as a US Airways Express Carrier.
http://www.colganair.com/history.htm

On December 11, 1999, Colgan Air became a US Airways Express codeshare partner connecting passengers to the US Airways system through Boston, LaGuardia and Washington-Dulles. US Airways Express, part of the US Airways system, is a network of ten regional airlines operating nearly 2,600 daily flights.
http://www.mpdcltd.com/Colganfact.html

Summary Statistics
Airline: US Airways (US)
Flight Number: 5930
Time period: December 1, 1999 to December 31, 1999
No data found for the above selection. Please click your browser's Back button or ALT+Left Arrow to return to the previous page and try again.

Summary Statistics
Airline: US Airways (US)
Flight Number: 5930
Time period: January 1, 2000 to December 31, 2000
No data found for the above selection. Please click your browser's Back button or ALT+Left Arrow to return to the previous page and try again.

Summary Statistics
Airline: US Airways (US)
Flight Number: 5930
Time period: January 1, 2001 to December 31, 2001
No data found for the above selection. Please click your browser's Back button or ALT+Left Arrow to return to the previous page and try again.

Summary Statistics
Airline: US Airways (US)
Flight Number: 5930
Time period: January 1, 2002 to December 31, 2002
No data found for the above selection. Please click your browser's Back button or ALT+Left Arrow to return to the previous page and try again.

Summary Statistics
Airline: US Airways (US)
Flight Number: 5930
Time period: January 1, 2003 to December 31, 2003
No data found for the above selection. Please click your browser's Back button or ALT+Left Arrow to return to the previous page and try again.

Summary Statistics
Airline: US Airways (US)
Flight Number: 5930
Time period: January 1, 2004 to June 30, 2004
No data found for the above selection. Please click your browser's Back button or ALT+Left Arrow to return to the previous page and try again.

The plot thickens:
A Portland Jetport video camera recorded the two passing through a security checkpoint at 5:53 a.m. Tuesday. They boarded a 6 a.m. USAirways Flight 5930 bound for Boston.
http://greenvilleonline.com/news/2001/09/14/2001091412113.htm

In Portland, authorities focused their attention on US Airways Flight 5930, a commuter plane with 19 seats that left at 6 a.m. for Boston, Portland Transportation Director Jeff Monroe said.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/13/investigate-cars.htm

Today investigators focused attention on US Airways Flight 5930, a commuter plane with 19 seats that left Portland International Jetport for Boston's Logan International Airport at 6 a.m. Tuesday.
FBI agents asked to review surveillance videotapes from security checkpoints at the Portland airport, a relatively small facility where three airlines out of nine have daily connections in Boston, according to local Police Chief Michael Chitwood.
Federal investigators told Chitwood they were interested in early morning flights Tuesday from Portland to Boston and were focusing on two men believed to have passed through airport security at 5:53 a.m., Chitwood said.
Based on a still color photograph taken from the video images, Chitwood described both men as being in their mid- to late-thirties.
One man, who Chitwood said authorities believe may be a suspect named Mohammed Atta, wore a blue shirt and blue slacks. He carried a man's handbag over his shoulder. The other, who authorities believe may be Abdul Alumari, wore a light, short-sleeved, casual shirt and light-colored pants. He was captured by the camera retrieving a similar, small bag.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A28632-2001Sep14¬Found=true

In Portland, authorities were focusing their attention on US Airways Flight 5930, a Beech 1900 commuter plane that carried 19 people and left at 6 a.m. for Boston, Portland Transportation Director Jeff Monroe said.
http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/0/B085779AAB646BA487256AC6006F4F86?OpenDocument

Two of the hijackers apparently came to the United States from Nova Scotia, Canada, crossing the border via a ferry to Bar Harbor, Maine. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police and Interpol are assisting U.S. law enforcement in retracing these hijackers' steps in Canada.
According to CNN, the plane tickets for seven suspected hijackers were purchased with one credit card. The credit card apparently belonged to a material witness who was picked up in Boston, and not to one of the hijackers.
<snip>
On the morning of the hijacking, the two brothers rented a car from an Alamo rental desk at Boston's Logan Airport and drove to an airport in Portland. There they got on US Airways Flight 5930 at 6 A.M. headed back to Boston, the sources said. Investigators are analyzing videotapes at the car rental facility and at the Maine airport. Investigators suspect that the two brothers were aboard hijacked United Airlines flight 175, according to the Boston Herald.
<snip>
Information found in another rental car left at Logan Airport, where two of the hijacked flights originated, led investigators to two more pilots: Mohammed Atta and Marwan Yousef Alshehi. The two held passports from the United Arab Emirates. A Florida driver's license was issued to Atta on May 2, 2001, and he previously held an Egyptian driver's license. Federal investigators said both men received training at Huffman Aviation International in Florida.
http://www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=671

Hmmmm
Do these people even know to ask Alamo
for the records that will show
at what time that Portland car was rented
by the dead man walking?
http://www.thewpbfchannel.com/news/72102/detail.html
http://www.cincypost.com/2001/sep/15/crash091501.html

One bright day in the middle of night,
Two border-crossing chauffeurs got up to hijack a flight.
They took a ferry, then a chartered plane
which was scheduled as always but never before or again.
A mute onlooker shrieked in fright
And a lame man danced at the ghastly sight.
A deaf policeman heard the noise,
And came to investigate those resurrected boys,
If you don't believe this lie is true,
Ask the blind man he saw it too!

[DulceDecorum]

44. On top of which,

United Airlines is sometimes placed in a position
where it has no choice but to permit the truth to come out.

US Airways Express is a network of 9 regional airlines, including the MidAtlantic Airways division of US Airways, operating under a code-share and service agreement with US Airways to provide customers more flights to a greater number of destinations.
http://www.usairways.com/about/corporate/express/factsheet.htm
Please scroll most of the way down and confirm the following.

1) MidAtlantic Airways of Pittsburgh, Pa.
has US Express flight numbers 1600-1999 (Regional Jets)

2) PSA Airlines, Inc. of Dayton, Ohio
has US Express flight numbers 2200-2399 (Regional Jets) and 2400-2599

3) Mesa Airlines of Phoenix, Az.
has US Express flight numbers 2600-2999

4) Chautauqua Airlines, Inc of Indianapolis, Ind.
has US Express flight numbers 3000-3499

5) Trans States Airlines of St. Louis, Mo.
has US Express flight numbers 3500-3624 (Regional jets) and 3625-3699

6) Piedmont Airlines, Inc. of Salisbury, Md.
has US Express flight numbers 3700-4499

7) Shuttle America of Ft. Wayne, Ind.
has US Express flight numbers 4500-4649

8) Air Midwest Airlines, Inc.2 of Wichita, Kan.
has US Express flight numbers 4650-4799

9) Colgan Air, Inc. of Manassas, Va.
has US Express flight numbers 4800-4999

There is no such thing as US Express Flight number 5930.
US Express flight numbers conclude at 4999.
There is no US Express flight number starting from 5000.
There is no such thing as US Express Flight number 5930.

How in tarnation did those hijackers board a plane
whose flight number is non-existent?

In business, being late for a meeting – or not making it at all – can be the difference between success and failure. When traveling between Boston, New York and Washington DC, the choice is simple. It's the right decision when being on time is the only option.
http://www.usairways.com/about/corporate/shuttle/
To be continued.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[akronbd]

69. You are aware that the information you pasted

is from much later than 9/11/01, correct? The MidAtlantic division of US Airways didn't even exist in 2001.

I have a hard-copy US Airways timetable effective 9/9/01 that states that Colgan flights at the time were in the range 5900-5999. Under the flight schedules for PWM, the 6am departure for BOS is indeed flight 5930, a perfectly valid 5900-series US/Colgan codeshare flight number in September 2001. US print timetables from 2/4/01 and 12/2/01 also show Colgan assigned 5900-series numbers and the use of those numbers for PWM-BOS flights.

Flight numbers change all the time, especially those assigned to regional airline partners. Pasting information from years later to "prove" that there was no such flight number on 9/11/01 shows ignorance for that fact.

Check the current UA timetables and you'll find that 93 and 175 are not used, just as AA 11 and 77 are no longer assigned. Does the fact that UA 175 does not exist today mean that it didn't exist on or before 9/11/01? Nope......just that the number has been retired. US 5930 existed on 9/11/01 as a valid flight number regardless of what you say.

[Make7]

70. Welcome to DU.

I thought you might want to know that the poster that you are responding to was banned quite some time ago. You can tell by clicking on the profile icon next to their username. The tombstone...



... means they are not allowed to post anymore.

Hopefully you'll find something else of interest and stick around to join in some discussions.

:hi: Make7

[akronbd]

71. Thanks,

Thanks, I figured that but also wanted to make sure that the false info didn't go without reply, even if it was an old post. ;)

[Sweet Pea]

73. Lordy....

I had forgotten about these Dulce posts and how....digitally verbose....they were. Don't know if I should thank you or not for reminding me of them!

[Make7]

74. I do kinda miss the "Truth Suppression Technique No. X" gambit.

See post #5. LOL!

- Make7

[MercutioATC]

72. Between your aviation knowledge and "akron" in your name, I'm interested..

I'm a controller at Cleveland Center. What's your story?

:hi:

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seatnineb]

43. Game,set and match my friend.........

Right on Dulce!

:headbang:

I said it before and I am goin to say it again pal!

Genius!

:thumbsup:

[seatnineb]

24. Dulce...........

Genius!

:thumbsup:

[Bolo Boffin]

25. You know for certain that Alomari checked luggage?

Just wondering...

[DulceDecorum]

29. III. Facts and Circumstances

1.) I have reviewed the affidavit of FBI Special Agent Mark Hastbacks which was submitted in support of a Search Warrant issued on September 12, 2001, by united States Magistrate Judge Barry S. Seltzer in the Southern District of Florida. I have learned the following:

a. At approximately 8:19 am. on September 11, 2001 United Airlines Flight 175 (UA 175) departed Logan International Airport in Boston Massachusetts (Logan) bound for Los Angeles California. At approximately 8:48am. UA175 struck a tower of the World trade Center in new York causing a massive explosion fire and eventual collapse of the tower. Based upon visual observation, it is apparent that UA175 was steered on a path for the purpose of colliding with the tower.

b.) At approximately 7:45 am. on September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight 11 (AA11), a Boeing 767 aircraft departed Logan bound for Los Angeles, California. At approximately 9:08 am. AA11 struck the other tower of the World trade Center in new York causing a massive explosion fire and eventual collapse of the tower. Based upon visual observation, it is apparent that AA11 was steered on a path for the purpose of colliding with the tower. Rescue and recovery efforts are ongoing, but at least hundreds of deaths have resulted from these events.

c.) On September 11, 2001, FBI agents interviewed an employee of American Airlines at Logan. The witness reported that he had received a phone call shortly prior to the collision of AA11 with the World trade Center from a flight attendant on AA11 using a cellular phone. The witness noted that the flight attendant stated during this phone call in substance that several males of Middle Eastern descent seated in the area of rows 9 and 10 of AA11 were armed with knives and had wounded other passengers and were hijacking the plane.

d.) review of the passenger manifest for AA11 reveals that a passenger by the name of MOHAM(first name apparently abbreviated) ATTA ("Atta") was on AA11 and was assigned seat 8D. In addition a passenger by the name of ABDUL ALOMARI("Alomari") was on AA11 and was assigned seat 8G. Subsequent to the departure of AA11, American Airlines personnel at Logan discovered two bags that had been bound for transfer to AA11 but had not been loaded onto the flight prior to its departure. These two bags, a green Travel gear bag bearing the American Airlines tag number US138530 and a black Travelpro bag bearing American Airlines number US 138529, were checked to passenger Atta. These two bags were checked on September 11, 2001, at Portland Maine and were marked to be transferred at Logan from an inbound flight from Portland to AA11.
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/resources/documents/fbiaffidavit9....
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/resources/documents/fbiaffidavit10...

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/resources/documents/


BOLOboffin asked:
"You know for certain that Alomari checked luggage?"

Apparently not.
He left his thong at home.
I have this from a very reliable source.

[Bolo Boffin]

30. I'll take that as you conceding the point.

After all, you said this:

DAMN those baggage handlers sure can hustle
- if Alomari got to take his luggage.
Why, they must all have been sprinting to that plane together.

I asked if you knew for certain that Alomari checked luggage at all.

And you responded with a lot of information that was completely irrelevant to the question.

It's interesting that somebody mixed up the two planes - 11 struck first, and then 175. It's amusing the way you like to quote news reports and warrants issued in the few days after 9/11, when chaos made for some weird reports, and use them to show...

...what? If you've got a conclusion, would you mind sharing it with the rest of us? Thanks ever so, Dulce...

[John Doe II]

31. The six-minutes question remains

Boloboffin,
you do have a point asking if Al-Omari had luggage but I think this is not the important question.
The question is: How is it possible to change planes within six minutes (and this after Atta and Al-Omari almost missed their flight in Portland. A city they went to from Boston (sic) one day before - for no obvios reason.) And just checking my database I found that Atta and Al-Omari (if the six minutes problem is correct) had not even to solve the problem how to get out of the airplane quickly (they are not alone) and to run to the next get. No, "The Time" writes:
"They evidently arrived in Boston the previous Sunday, drove back to Portland and then flew again to Boston. But this would have increased their exposure to airline security, which they had to clear once in Portland and again in Boston, since US Airways an d American Airlines operate from opposite ends of the terminal."
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101010924/wplot.html

So the gate was not even close.
So they had to clear another security check and Flight 11 was already late.
I think this sounds problematic and I believe it might need further investigation.

[DulceDecorum]

56. DAMMIT ATTA. I told you to run.

4. Flight 11 pushed back from Gate 32 in Terminal B at 7:40. See AAL response to the Commission's February 3, 2004, requests, Mar. 15, 2004.
7. ...... For boarding and seating information, see AAL record, SABRE information on Flight 11, Sept. 11, 2001. These boarding times from the American system are approximate only; for Flight 11, they indicated that some passengers "boarded" after the aircraft had pushed back from the gate. See AAL response to the Commission's February 3, 2004, requests, Mar. 15, 2004.
http://www.leximancer.com/gallery/9_11_Commission/Map/data/911Report.pdf~30.html
At the bottom of the page.

Flight 11 pushed back from Gate 32 in Terminal B at 7:40.
...for Flight 11,
they indicated that some passengers "boarded" after the aircraft had pushed back from the gate.

Atta, you are damn lucky that
a) you made it onto that plane, and
b) you are dead.

Osama is pretty ticked off at the way you handled this thing
and he says that if you ever show back up here,
he has only two words for you:

[DulceDecorum]

32. Was Alomari EVER on the Portland plane?

Similarly the BBC reported the transcript of the conversation from the cell-phone of stewardess Madeline Amy Sweeney on United Airlines flight 93 to Boston air-traffic control. She gave the hijackers' seat-numbers; these were not the seats of the alleged Arab hijackers. In none of the several phone-calls made from the hijacked planes to passengers' relatives on the ground were any "Arab hijackers" mentioned. American Airlines flight 11, the second plane to crash into the World Trade Centre, was supposedly piloted by captain Abdalrahman al-Omari but he, too, is alive.
Robert Mueller, director of the FBI, has twice been forced to admit on CNN that there is "no legal proof to prove the identities of the suicidal hijackers" (CNN, September 20 and 27). So why are Muslims being blamed? The US has alleged that the hijackers were followers of Usama bin Ladin; yet most of them were reportedly drinking at a Florida strip bar the night before the attacks. A more plausible explanation is that someone wanted to make sure that Muslim names stuck in the minds of the public in order to nail the crime on them. Captain Abdalrahman al-Omari has also stated that while he was studying in Denver, Colorado, his house was broken into in 1995; together with other belongings, his passport was stolen. He reported this to the police. It is perfectly possible that someone assumed his identity and used his passport.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/hundreds_dying_zafar_oct18_2001.htm

Federal sources initially identified Bukhari and Ameer Bukhari as possible hijackers who boarded one of the planes that originated in Boston. The two men were first identified as brothers, but Adnan Bukhari said that was not the case.
Their names had been tied to a car found at an airport in Portland, Maine, but Adnan Bukhari's attorney said it appeared their identifications were stolen and said Bukhari had no role in the hijackings. A federal law enforcement official said Bukhari passed an FBI polygraph test and is not considered a suspect.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/13/flight.schools/

Let us take another look at that.
American Airlines flight 11, the second plane to crash into the World Trade Centre, was supposedly piloted by captain Abdalrahman al-Omari but he, too, is alive.
Ameer Bukhari and Adnan Bukhari had been tied to a car found at an airport in Portland, Maine.
Seems to me that Alomari is NOT the man we after.
And it also would appear that Mueller's FBI is VERY sensitive
about this entire matter.

According to OSC’s petition, that investigation provided reasonable grounds to conclude that Mr. Hopkins was fired because he alerted his supervisors and the FBI to what he reasonably believed might be a link between one of the hijackers involved in the September 11th terrorist attacks and an individual who had received Aviation Security training at the FAA Academy.
http://www.osc.gov/documents/press/2001/pr01_25.htm

WHY should we give a damn
about Alomari's baggage any-old-how?
Seems to me Alomari would NOT have checked in baggage
if he was NOT on the Portland flight,
or if he did NOT HAVE any baggage to check in.
After all, he was supposed to be on a suicide mission.
What did he need baggage for?

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,239215,00.jpg

And why in tarnation did Atta see the need
to leave instructions
for the disposal of his body and personal effects?
His body was going to be smashed to smithereens,
and the will was written on paper which is usually quite flammable.
Furthermore,
he was taking the damn baggage
ONTO THE SAME FLIGHT
that he was hijacking!!!
WHO did he expect to find the will?
Boston FBI?
Somewhere in Hijackerstan, a village is missing its idiot.

Atta, 33, then rushed to the security checkpoint and down the concourse – about a five-minute jog – to the gate, where he showed up perspiring, the source says. HE SHOWED UP ALONE, THE FOUR OTHER TERRORISTS HAVING CHECKED IN EARLIER. Flight 11 left the gate at 7:45 a.m. It hit the north tower of the World Trade Center at 8:48 a.m.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24596
How did Abdulaziz Alomari get checked in BEFORE Atta?
Do tell.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=6265&mesg_id=6624

[DulceDecorum]

33. The passport of Abdul Aziz al Omari.

BOLOboffin,
I concede NOTHING.

The final days
The Portland detour almost prevented Atta and Omari from making Flight 11 out of Boston. In fact, the luggage they checked in Portland failed to make it onto the plane. Seized after the September 11 crashes, Atta and Omari's luggage turned out to contain a number of telling items, including: correspondence from the university Atta attended in Egypt; Omari's international driver's license and passport; a video cassette for a Boeing 757 flight simulator; and this folding knife and pepper spray, presumably extra weapons the two conspirators decided they didn't need.
http://www.kokhavivpublications.com/2004/feature/sept_11/stm16_20040617.html

Go on BOLOboffin,
impeach that source.

NATIONAL COMMISSION ON TERRORIST ATTACKS UPON THE UNITED STATES
Public Hearing
Monday, January 26, 2004
Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, DC
CHAIRED BY: THOMAS H. KEAN

MR. THOMAS H. KEAN: .........
To start, I would now like to recognize Dr. Philip Zelikow, the Commission's executive director, who will begin the first staff statement. He will be followed by Ms. Susan Ginsburg, who directs the part of the investigation that pertains to the subject of today's hearing. ..............

MR. PHILIP D. ZELIKOW: Members of the Commission, working with you we have developed initial findings on how the individuals who carried out the 9/11 attacks entered the United States. We have also developed initial findings on terrorists who failed in their efforts to enter the United States. These findings lead us to some tentative judgments on the way the United States targets the travel of international terrorists. This staff statement represents the collective effort of several members of our staff. Susan Ginsburg, Thomas Eldridge and Janice Kephart-Roberts did most of the investigative work reflected in this statement. ...........

MS. SUSAN GINSBURG: Beginning with passports. Four of the hijackers passports have survived in whole or in part. Two were recovered from the crash site of United Airlines flight 93 in Pennsylvania. These are the passports of Ziad Jarrah and Saeed al Ghamdi. One belonged to a hijacker on American Airlines flight 11. This is the passport of Satam al Suqami. A passerby picked it up and gave it to a NYPD detective shortly before the World Trade Center towers collapsed. A fourth passport was recovered from luggage that did not make it from a Portland flight to Boston on to the connecting flight which was American Airlines flight 11. This is the passport of Abdul Aziz al Omari.
In addition to these four, some digital copies of the hijackers passports were recovered in post-9/11 operations. Two of the passports that have survived, those of Satam al Suqami and Abdul Aziz al Omari, were clearly doctored. To avoid getting into classified detail, we will just state that these were manipulated in a fraudulent manner in ways that have been associated with al Qaeda.
http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing7/9-11Commission_Hearing_2004-01-26.htm


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/photogallery/terrorism/gallery_07/photo05.html

Application for visa into the US.
http://www.911review.org/Wget/www.lebensaspekte.de/groundzero/alomari_visa.htm

Tuesday September 10, 2002
Al-Qaida formally claimed responsibility last night for the September 11 attacks on the United States, with a video showing some of the hijackers making preparations in Afghanistan.
<snip>
The excerpts shown last night also included a farewell message of a man it identified as hijacker Abdulaziz Alomari.

"My work is a message those who heard me and to all those who saw me at the same time it is a message to the infidels that you should leave the Arabian peninsula defeated and stop giving a hand of help to the coward Jews in Palestine.
"God may reward all those who trained me on this path and was behind this noble act and a special mention should be made of the Mujahid (Muslim holy warrior) leader Sheikh Osama bin Laden, may God protect him".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/story/0,12469,798048,00.html

September 20, 2001
But the more the FBI learns about the dead men, the less likely it seems that the list of suspects derived from the passenger manifests of the aircraft can be accurate. Many of them seem to have adopted the personas of real-life commercial and military pilots.
In Saudi Arabia, five of the alleged hijackers have emerged, alive, innocent and astonished to see their names and photographs appearing on satellite television.
"The name is my name and the birth date is the same as mine, but I am not the one who bombed the World Trade Centre in New York," Abdulaziz Alomari told the London-based Asharq al-Awsat newspaper. Mr Alomari, 28, interviewed in Riyadh, said that he had left the United States in April 2000 and was in the Saudi capital during the suicide attacks in New York and Washington. The US-educated engineer had reported to police that his passport was stolen when his flat in Denver, Colorado, was burgled in 1995.
http://www.911review.org/Wget/www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2001/londontimes092001.html

Sunday, 23 September, 2001, 12:30 GMT 13:30 UK
Mistaken identity
Abdulaziz Al Omari, another of the Flight 11 hijack suspects, has also been quoted in Arab news reports.
He says he is an engineer with Saudi Telecoms, and that he lost his passport while studying in Denver.
Another man with exactly the same name surfaced on the pages of the English-language Arab News.
The second Abdulaziz Al Omari is a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines, the report says.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
http://www.911review.org/Wiki/HijackersAliveAndWell.shtml

Saeed Alghamdi, Mohald Alshehri, Abdulaziz Alomari, Waleed Alshehri and Ahmed Alnami have either been exempted from involvement in these attacks or their identities are being seriously questioned. As for others such as Amer Kamfar and Adnan and Amer Bukhari, their names have ceased being mentioned as possible suspects, one of whom had died approximately two years ago.
http://www.911review.org/Wiki/HijackersPatsies.shtml

Can be FBI be sure it has the right people?
No. In the case of one man now believed to be alive - Khalid al-Midhar - investigators are exploring three possibilities. One was that he never entered the country and his name was simply used as an alias by one of the hijackers. Another is that he allowed his name to be used on the flight, so that US officials might assume he had died, and give him time to escape the country. Finally, he could have died in the crash.
Another suspected hijacker, Abdulaziz Alomari, an employee of Saudi Telecom, is reported to be planning to file a case against CNN "for not verifying what it airs". Mr Alomari said he lost his passport while studying in Denver.
http://www.911review.org/Wget/www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,555146,00.html

We "know" for sure,
from the FBI affidavit,
that the luggage on the Portland plane had tags which had the name MOHAM ATTA.
Now the 9:11 Commission is telling us
that the passport of Abdul Aziz al Omari
was recovered from luggage
that did not make it from a Portland flight to Boston
on to the connecting flight which was American Airlines flight 11.

On September 11, at 6:00 AM, Mohamed Atta and Abdul Aziz al Omari boarded a U.S. Airways flight leaving Portland, Maine en route to Boston's Logan Airport. They were both carrying black shoulder bags when they passed through security. When Atta arrived at Logan Airport, he received a telephone call on his cellular telephone from a pay phone located inside Terminal "C". This call is believed to have originated from one of the Flight 175 hijackers who were waiting to board Flight 175 which was boarding in Terminal "C".
http://intelligence.senate.gov/0209hrg/020926/witness.htm
http://www.911review.org/Wget/www.cooperativeresearch.net/timeline/2002/senatecommittee092602.html

WOW.
Alomari had his own black shoulder bag
and yet Alomari put his passport in Atta's luggage.
Why would he do that?
Inquiring minds want to know.

According to the sensationalistic-yet-often-accurate National Enquirer, "Atta's gay lover for the past two years was his right-hand man, Abdulaziz Alomari, who was with Atta when he crashed the plane into the North Tower."
http://www.planetout.com/news/feature.html?sernum=327

CONCLUSION:
Agnes Nixon,
http://imdb.com/name/nm0633202/
you've been punk'd.
http://www.soapcentral.com/amc/news/2000/1009-nixon.php

[seatnineb]

34. The divine Boston F.B.I!

A final recital from Abdul-Aziz.....




"There is ONLY one Robert Mueller...."
"And the BOSTON F.B.I is his messenger!"

[John Doe II]

26. What does landing and take off time actually mean?

Is the official departure time the moment of take off and arrival the moment the airplane finally reaches it's parking place?
This seems important. As Atta wasn't alone in the airplane and as we all know it takes quite some time to leave and to enter an airplane: Is it even for an athlete possible to change airplanes within six minutes? And how far away were the gates in Boston?? WoodyBox I gudess you should know that?

[DulceDecorum]

28. The BTS database

Departure and arrival statistics include:
scheduled departure time,
scheduled arrival time
actual departure time,
actual arrival time
scheduled elapse time,
departure delay,
wheels-off time
wheels-on time
taxi-out time
taxi-in time
airborne time,
cancellation
and diversion
by airport and airline.
http://www.bts.gov/programs/oai/airline_ontime_statistics/

I think
that that the actual departure time
is the time at which the plane pulls out of it "parking space" at the airport.
Then there is that taxi-out time and the wheels-off time and the actual flight time and the wheels-on time and the taxi-in time and the actual arrival time.
At least that is how I read it.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RH]

45. COMPLAINT FOR WRONGFUL DEATH AND SURVIVAL

If anybody here thinks they got proof that Flight 5930 did not depart from Portland (scheduled 6.00am) they'd better tell BAUM, HEDLUND, ARISTEI, GUILFORD & SCHIAVO.

Here for instance I quote parts 19 to 21 of their sample of general allegations:
-------------------------------------


19. At all times pertinent, on and before September 11, 2001, defendants Colgan and US Airways were common carriers, authorized under 14 CFR. Part 135 and 121, respectively, engaged in the business of carrying passengers for hire in interstate and international commerce, operating regularly scheduled passengers flights at Portland International Jetport in Portland, Maine and Logan Airport in Boston, Massachusetts.

20. On September 11, 2001, Colgan operated as US Airways flight 5930, under 14 CFR Part 135 as a regularly scheduled passenger flight for hire, carrying terrorists from Portland, Maine’s Portland International Jetport to Boston Massachusetts’ Logan Airport. Colgan’s aircraft displayed US Airways’ logo, trade dress, paint scheme and livery, under the full actual and apparent authority, knowledge and consent of defendant US Airways.

21. At all times pertinent, defendants AMR, American, Colgan, and US Airways owned, operated, controlled, manned, supervised, and oversaw the subject aircraft and the security systems through which the terrorists penetrated, by and through its authorized agents, servants, officers, employees, and/or designees, pursuant to their statutory and regulatory duties under 14 CFR Part 108 and other federal and state statutes and regulations.

------------------------------

http://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/media/9-11complaints/flt11sample.htm

[DulceDecorum]

46. Better YOU should tell Colgan,

so their lawyers may rejoice.

As if they ALL didn't know already.
Them and Boston FBI.
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/resources/documents/fbiaffidavit10.htm

But a court proceeding will make for interesting viewing,
seeing as each party is supposed to actually PROVE their respective cases.

[RH]

48. I should tell Colgan that YOU think YOU've got proof?

Is that what you mean?

Do you intend to suppose that the LA lawyers would not be aware of the FBI affidavit?

I doubt it.

Please get to your point, if there is one.

[DulceDecorum]

49. Tell them

whatever you like.

[seatnineb]

47. All roads lead to Manassas.....

Funny you should mention Colgan..........

With their great heritage......


Senator Charles (Chuck) Colgan, Sr.and sixteen other stockholders organized Colgan Airways Corp. as the fixed base operator at Manassas, Virginia Regional Airport in 1965

Why is that the same Manassas airport which is still a home to Colgan.....
But also to one Brittania aviation...........

Brittania had no visible assets or qualifications other than its association with Caribe Air, but was awarded a massive
regional service center contract(at Manassas). Caribe Air, in turn, has a long history of association with CIA drug-running operations out of Mena, Arkansas, and is also allegedly linked to fraudulent Enron-funded offshore investment partnerships.

And just to tie the link between the 9/11 "brothers",Colgan and Brittania.........

Various records and testimony show that two of the alleged hijackers, Mohamed Atta and Marwan Alshehri, took flight training at Rudi Dekkers' Huffman Aviation flight school in Venice, Florida.
Investigator Daniel Hopsicker, following the funding trail, found
that Huffman Aviation is closely linked to Brittania Aviation and
Caribe Air.

Seems like Brittania and Colgan have a lot in common.

Small world.

[DulceDecorum]

50. GREAT FIND

Folks,
this is the difference between honest discussion
and blatant disruption.

When someone brings FACTS and INFORMATION to the table,
THAT is discussion.

Disruption is when someone goes out of their way
simply to let the world know
just how much they detest you
and the other members of the Democratic Underground.

Thanks, seatnineb.
It kinda helps answer the question as to
why a small regional airline
would have TWO of its very own international airline codes,
namely 9L and 9E.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DU GrovelBot]

37. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v3.0
==================



This week is our third quarter 2004 fund drive. Democratic
Underground is a completely independent website. We depend almost entirely
on donations from our members to cover our costs. Thank you so much for
your support.

[DulceDecorum]

55. The victims

We have been told that the number of people who died as a result of the events of September 11, 2001 is somewhere in the vicinity of 3,000.

Anyone who disputes this number immediately comes under attack.
The term "Holocaust denier" is frequently used.

So fasten up your seat-belts,
batten down the hatches
and prepare for a very bumpy ride
as we look closely into the lives and deaths of the victims within the WTC.

To conserve on bandwith,
(and tempers)
We are going to confine ourselves to an in-depth look at the firm which was most affected by the demolition of the WTC,
namely,
Cantor Fitzgerald.

Many of us here only became aware of the existence of Cantor Fitzgerald when the CEO, Howard Lutnick turned up on TV in tears over the devastation experienced by his firm.
For this fine performance,
and subsequent acts,
Mr. Lutnick has earned the monicker
"the Grim Weeper."

Shaking and sobbing, Howard Lutnick tells of the devastation his company has suffered.
He is the chief executive of Cantor Fitzgerald, a bond trading firm handling trillions of dollars every year.
One thousand of its staff worked on floors 101-05 of the North Tower of the World Trade Center, close to the point where the first plane hit.
Now 700 people are missing, among them Mr Lutnick's brother.
'Not one got down'
"I do not know of one of my employees who got down - zero," sobs chief executive Howard Lutnick.
<snip>
A Goliath of the financial world, Cantor Fitzgerald handled $50,000bn of business last year, acting as an exchange for the world's bond markets.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1544894.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1544020.stm

Interviewed by ABC’s Connie Chung on September 14, 2001, Cantor Fitzgerald CEO Howard Lutnick, his face appearing to melt as he wept over his nearly 700 lost employees, seemed to embody some biblical story—a hardened man hollowed out and transformed by grief, and with a new mission. Lutnick vowed to stay in business for the sake of “my 700 families.”
Less than a week later, Lutnick’s sack-cloth and ashes had already begun to fade, replaced by a $3,000 suit. In a weepy, pleading voice (the lesson here: TV tears only work once), he explained to Larry King that he’d made September 15 the date of his lost employees’ final paycheck because Cantor couldn’t afford to pay their salaries. A man who could do such a thing—before some of the families had even accepted that their loved ones were dead—might be capable of anything. For a while, his reputation was worse than Osama’s; with Osama, at least you knew where you stood.
http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/arts/books/reviews/n_8273/

Brokerage firm Cantor Fitzgerald, one of the tenants of the doomed World Trade Centre (WTC), is being sued by its former landlord for non-payment of rent.
The WTC's leaseholder, a company controlled by property tycoon Larry Silverstein, has filed a lawsuit in Manhattan's supreme court claiming that Cantor owes over $1m (£600,000) in back rent.
The sum covers the period from 1 August to 10 September 2001, the day before the WTC's iconic twin towers were destroyed in the biggest ever terrorist attack on US soil.
"That obligation to pay rent continues notwithstanding the heinous attacks of September 11," the lawsuit filed by Mr Silverstein's company stated.
A spokesman for Mr Silverstein said all of the other WTC tenants had acknowledged their obligation to pay rent for the five weeks to September 2001.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2945108.stm

The case centres on three brokers, Edward Bird, Spencer Gill and Luigi Boucher, who have worked for ICAP's Garban-Intercapital unit since April.
In a court in London, ICAP's lawyer Andrew Hochhauser argued that the traders' former boss Daniel LaVecchia was "domineering and bullying".
ICAP says the three former employees are claiming 'constructive dismissal' - essentially that they were so badly treated they had to leave.
"It is our submission that bullying is a hallmark of Cantor Fitzgerald and undue pressure is precisely what occurred here," Andrew Hochhauser said.
"The attempts to try to link these events to 11 September and the collapse of the Twin Towers is completely and utterly unjustified," he added.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2071424.stm

September 25, 1996
To be proven dead under the New York State Public Health Law, the victims had to be first proven alive at the moment they took seats aboard the ill-fated flight from Kennedy Airport, said Suffolk Assistant County Attorney Derrick Robinson. Wetli then had to investigate the deaths. He did that based upon a passenger list from TWA, a report from the NTSB that there were no survivors and opinion letters from the state health commissioner and the state attorney general's office. Among the strongest evidence are copies of ticket stubs taken from passengers at the gate immediately before they boarded.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nytwa96-cert925.story

The above came from an article about the crash of TWA Flight 800.
Let us see apply the same level of scrutiny to the affairs of Cantor Fitzgerald
BEFORE
the events of September 11, 2001.

This is one of the largest bond trading firms in the world, processing over $200B (yes billion) a day. They also were in the flight path of one of the 9-11 hijacked airliners, which managed to wipe out two thirds of the company in an instant. 700 people died. What was C-F's immediate reaction to the terror attacks? On September 14, 2001 they took all their unaccounted-for employees off the payroll, effective the following day. Yes, that was three days after the attack. Once C-F realized what a horrible public relations gaffe they had made, additional plans were added to donate 25% of their profits to victims' families.
<snip>
But before 9/11, we present this anecdote:
In 1994, Mark Anderson went to work in the Los Angeles branch of Cantor Fitzgerald, a prestigious securities trading firm. Like other young stock traders, he relished the chance to make up to $3 million a year, and worked hard to complete the firm's rigorous training program. But when rumors spread through the office that Anderson was gay, he became the brunt of a series of degrading slurs and pranks, including a gay-sex photo doctored to include his face, a deli sandwich stuffed with a rubber vagina, and an incident where he was urinated upon in the bathroom. To make matters worse, Anderson couldn't complain to Human Resources, since the pranksters were the branch's top partners. Still, he kept working. After completing his training and serving a stint in the firm's New York office, he was sent to a sales convention in Dallas, where he saw himself mocked in a "training" video on "serving the homosexual community," and saw his Alfa Romeo repainted as a police "cruiser" embellished with gay slurs like "Butt Pirate" and "Rump Ranger." After Mark returned to Los Angeles, his senior partner called him in to tell him "It's not working out." Anderson ultimately quit and sued for sexual harassment and wrongful termination, only to discover he had unwittingly signed away his right to sue when he took his Series 7 stockholders' exam before joining the firm. In 1998, Anderson settled with Cantor Fitzgerald; the terms remain confidential.
http://www.rotten.com/library/crime/corporate/canter-fitzgerland/

But .... but .... but ....
surely that is NOT the Cantor Fitzgerald of September 11!!

Posted on 13 Dec 2001 at 10:48.05 AM
Cantor Fitzgerald has a terrible record of treatment of minorities...
'Mark Anderson, a southern California native, once worked for Cantor Fitzgerald, a securities trading firm which handles four times the amount of money New York Stock Exchange does, and likely manages your pension. Mark was repeatedly harassed and emotionally tortured while working for Cantor Fitzgerald.
<snip>
A co-worker, Mark's only friend at Cantor, who had tragically lost an arm in a childhood accident, witnessed most of the abuse Mark suffered. Members of senior management would greet him every day by asking him if he had stump ****ed anyone lately. Eventually, after suffering these abuses and more, Mark was fired.'
These events are detailed in the HBO Documentary, 'Out at Work'.
http://www.thecomplaintstation.com/cgi-bin/datacgi/database.cgi/Forum/Subtopic/TopicID=1285/SubtopicID=00020196/firstrecord=0/finalrecord=14/
http://gaytoday.badpuppy.com/garchive/world/123198wo.htm

Please note the first sentence:
....Cantor Fitzgerald, a securities trading firm which handles four times the amount of money New York Stock Exchange does, and likely manages your pension.

HANDLES FOUR TIMES THE AMOUNT OF MONEY
THE NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE DOES.
Now that is what I call a heavy hitter.
All the more reason why we should all join hands and mourn the loss of those fine outstanding men and women who lost their lives while working for Cantor Fitzgerald.

Introductory statement by Carol Bellamy, Executive Director of UNICEF at the Teacher's College, Columbia University, New York
New York - 26 January 2002
President Levine, Chancellor Levy, Esteemed Educators and Teachers, Students, Ladies and Gentlemen:
The single worst danger to children and their healthy development is armed conflict and violence of every kind. As Graça Machel noted in her landmark UN study of the impact of armed conflict on children, wars are proliferating, and more and more children are becoming caught up in the lunacy - some as combatants and camp followers - and all as victims and casualties.
In the last decade alone, at least 2 million children died as a result of armed conflict. Three times that number were disabled or seriously injured. Even more died because of disease, malnutrition or sexual violence. And this does not even count the disabling sorrow of those who lost their homes, their possessions, and often their families.
Political violence is also on the rise - and on September 11th, the United States mainland came into the crosshairs. The cumulative shock and anguish of that day and its aftermath have left their mark on all of us, but the effects have fallen most heavily on children, especially those who witnessed or experienced things that no child should ever see - and those struggling to understand the loss of parents or others dear to them.
The number of children who were directly affected is still anybody's guess; but we know, for example, that the deaths of 650 employees at Cantor Fitzgerald deprived some 1,300 children of at least one parent.
On Tuesday, The Daily News ran a story on how a sampling of children who lost parents are coping. The article mentioned a 9-year-old girl who dreams she is able to travel back in time to warn her firefighter father to stay away from the World Trade Center.
It talked about a 10-year-old boy who releases a balloon with a note attached to his dad asking how he's doing, up there in heaven. And we learned of a 14-year-old boy who endlessly scans the street for green Saturn sedans, hoping that sooner or later, he'll spot his father behind the wheel.
Other children and young people - part of the young multitude that Newsweek magazine is now calling "Generation 9/11" - told pollsters that the attacks had altered their worldview almost overnight.
http://www.unicef.org/media/media_9807.html

And speaking of an altered worldview ....

You know pop culture's come a long way when Ellen's coming-out party can be, primarily, a marketing event. But Wall Street still looks like it is far from seeing the earnings potential of gay people. Because on much of the Street, still, people can be openly gay only at risk to their careers.
The scandal at Lew Lieberbaum & Co. isn't the only case of alleged abuse on Wall Street. At Cantor Fitzgerald's L.A. offices, suspicions about one (now ex-) employee's sexuality allegedly led to invidious harassment.
AND A WARNING TO THE FAINT OF HEART: THIS IS NOT A PRETTY STORY.
<snip>
At the Dallas sales meeting, with virtually the entire worldwide sales staff and senior management in attendance, Los Angeles says "the tape was introduced as a new training video for desperate young brokers who could obtain business by soliciting the homosexual community of Los Angeles." As the entire room broke out in laughter, Anderson in his assigned seat was blown away. "They made hundreds of copies of that tape," he says. "And passed them out to everyone, other traders, clients. You know how Wall Street is, everyone's seen this thing."
Anderson returned to the office, nearly broken, but nearly a broker. A few weeks later he says he was passing by Rice's office when he was called in and told abruptly "you're not going to make a good stockbroker" and without warning or reprimand, fired on the spot.
"Mark attempted to stick it out for such a long period of time because he thought this was a plumb job," says Anderson's attorney Paul Nankivell. "But it turns out, it's actually like hell week on a permanent basis." Nankivell, joined by celebrated defense attorney Johnnie Cochran, is representing Anderson in an arbitration against Cantor. Their lawsuit was thrown out of court, foiled by the Form U-4 Anderson had to sign when he took his Series 7 test. This National Association of Securities Dealers-mandated form required all brokers to agree to settle disputes through arbitration, and not the courts. "It's a stacked deck," says Anderson. "It's like getting into a fight with a kid and having to settle it with his father."
Cantor Fitzgerald, for its part, acknowledges that the Los Angeles office was out of control. But no one has lost their job over their role in Anderson's abuse. "It's hugely embarrassing to Cantor Fitzgerald," admits managing director Debra Walton-Collings, "because it has all the elements of a soap opera. But the incident is in no way indicative to our culture. The behavior was inappropriate and sophomoric, but it was not malicious attack at all. Obviously, we think this is an opportunistic claim without merit and that will be revealed in the appropriate legal forum. We have a very excellent recruiting program at top universities and black colleges. The media has characterized it as a hazing situation, similar to the Tailhook scandal, and that's absolutely absurd."
Nonetheless, Anderson is pressing on. This week Nankivell and Cochran are awaiting the list of the three arbitrators to be selected by the NASD. The case could go before that board as early as next week. As for Anderson, after taking off six months to get his head together, he's given up on the securities industry. "I've gone back to interior design," he says, "where people are just people."
http://www.thestreet.com/comment/easymoney/29867.html

And now,
please,
a moment of silence for the other victims of Cantor Fitzgerald
whose surnames start with the letter A
or the letter B
and whose deaths have been reported to the Social Service Administration.

Andrew Anthony Abate Nothing found
Vincent Abate VINCENT P ABATE 23 May 1961-11 Sep 2001 (V)
Laurence Abel LAURENCE C ABEL 28 Oct 1963-11 Sep 2001 (V)
Paul Andrew Acquaviva Nothing found
Donald L. Adams Nothing found
Shannon Lewis Adams Nothing found
Lee Adler Nothing found
Daniel Thomas Afflitto DANIEL AFFLITTO 04 May 1969-11 Sep 2001 (V)
Alok Agarwal ALOK AGARWAL 03 May 1965-11 Sep 2001 (V)
David Agnes DAVID AGNES 10 Sep 1955-11 Sep 2001 (V)
Joanne Ahladiotis JOANNE M AHLADIOTIS 10 Jun 1974-11 Sep 2001 (P)
Andrew Alameno Nothing found
Edward L. Allegretto Nothing found
Joseph Ryan Allen JOSEPH R ALLEN 06 Feb 1962-11 Sep 2001 (P)
Christopher Edward Allingham Nothing found
Michael Rourke Andrews Nothing found
Laura Angilletta Nothing found
Lorraine D. Antigua Nothing found
Peter Paul Apollo Nothing found
Frank Thomas Aquilino Nothing found
Michael J. Armstrong Nothing found
Joshua Aron Nothing found
Michael Edward Asher Nothing found


John James Badagliacca Nothing found
Jane Ellen Baeszler Nothing found
Paul V. Barbaro Nothing found
Ivan Kyrillos Fairbanks Barbosa Nothing found
Colleen Ann Barkow Nothing found
Renee Barrett-Arjune Nothing found
Carlton W. Bartels Nothing found
Guy Barzvi GUY BARZVI 23 Feb 1972-11 Sep 2001 (V)
Inna Basina Nothing found
Alysia Basmajian Nothing found
W. David Bauer WALTER D BAUER 07 Mar 1956-11 Sep 2001 (V)
Larry I. Beck Nothing found
Maria Behr Nothing found
Debbie S. Bellows Nothing found
Bryan Craig Bennett Nothing found
Dominick J. Berardi DOMINICK BERARDI 07 Feb 1976-11 Sep 2001
Alvin Bergsohn ALVIN BERGSOHN 13 Jun 1953-11 Sep 2001 (P)
William Bernstein WILLIAM H BERNSTEIN 28 Dec 1958-11 Sep 2001
Timothy D. Betterly Nothing found
Bella Bhukhan Nothing found
Joshua David Birnbaum Nothing found
Balewa Albert Blackman Nothing found
Craig Michael Blass Nothing found
John Paul Bocchi Nothing found
Bruce Douglas (Chappy) Boehm Nothing found
Martin Boryczewski Nothing found
Thomas H. Bowden Jr Nothing found
Kimberly S. Bowers Nothing found
Shawn Edward Bowman Jr. Nothing found
Alfred Braca Nothing found
Michelle Renee Bratton MICHELLE R BRATTON 26 Apr 1978-11 Sep 2001 (P)
Edward A. Brennan III Nothing found
Frank H. Brennan Nothing found
Mark Francis Broderick Nothing found
Lloyd Brown Nothing found
Brandon J. Buchanan BRANDON J BUCHANAN 09 Apr 1977-11 Sep 2001 (V)
Dennis Buckley Nothing found
Patrick Joseph Buhse Nothing found
John E. Bulaga Jr. Nothing found
Stephen Bunin Nothing found
Matthew J. Burke Nothing found
Thomas Daniel Burke Nothing found
Keith James Burns KEITH BURNS 09 Feb 1962-11 Sep 2001 (V)
Milton Bustillo Nothing found

These results were obtained by the following process.
Take the name.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/index.html
EMPLOYER: Cantor Fitzgerald
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/lists/by-employer/page12.html
Cross with SSDI results for 2001.

(V)=(Verified) Report verified with a family member or someone acting on behalf of a family member.
(P)=(Proof) Death Certificate Observed.

We know for a fact that there exist at least 41 "verified" deaths.

Wednesday, October 3, 2001
Also Tuesday, a court declared 41 of the missing victims legally dead, acting at the request of their families. All had worked for the Cantor Fitzgerald bond trading firm, which lost some 700 employees.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/1003_APurns.html

(Original publication: Oct. 03, 2001)
A court yesterday declared 41 of the missing legally dead, acting at the request of their families. All worked for the Cantor Fitzgerald bond trading firm, which lost about 700 employees. The city has sped up the process of obtaining death certificates for missing people to allow victims' families to begin collecting insurance and other benefits.
Giuliani said 1,202 families have applied for death certificates.
http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/100301/03wtcnyc.html

Also, all insurers licensed to do business in New York State will accept affidavits from next of kin of victims of the World Trade Center, Pentagon and Pennsylvania disasters when a death certificate is not available. In addition, the Governor requested the Workers' Compensation Board to adopt a plan that would designate missing workers as "deceased" for the purpose of workers' compensation, regardless of whether a death certificate has been issued. This will relieve families from having to prove their missing loved one is actually deceased. It will also enable the Board to process claims and award benefits and will allow insurers to commence payments. Instead of being compelled to testify, families will be required to simply sign statements indicating that they are indeed dependents of a missing victim.
http://www.banking.state.ny.us/pr010924.htm

S 2-1.7
Presumption of death from absence;
effect of exposure to specific peril
(b) The fact that such person was exposed to a specific peril of death
may be a sufficient basis for determining at any time after such exposure that he or she died less than three years after the date his or her absence commenced.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c38/a6.html

In other words,
if the going gets tough,
and you vanish
you can legally be declared dead.
Just like that.
http://911digitalarchive.org/webcontent/nycosh/WTCcatasSeptNov/benefits.htm

This is how and why
so many September 11 deaths
were not and shall never be reported
to the Social Security Administration.
Some records you just can't cook.
http://www.albany.edu/mumford/wtc/cooper.htm
http://www.state.ny.us/governor/press/year01/press01.html

Much of SSA's disseminated actuarial, statistical, and analytical information is potentially influential because it has an impact on important public policies or important private-sector decisions relating to the Social Security program. Information products that are deemed to have a greater impact on public policies are subject to more extensive internal review and, where appropriate, review by external technical panels prior to release.
http://www.ssa.gov/515/ssaguidelines.html

Grim Statistics
At the World Trade Center, 2,823 people have been confirmed dead.
Fifteen percent of the total dead at the WTC were firefighters, police, and others who had entered the buildings after the planes struck to rescue inhabitants. Of the total dead, only 1,207 bodies have been identified, or less than half. Of these, 519 have been identified by DNA alone. At the request of victims’ families, the coroner’s office issued an additional 1,518 death certificates without a body.
<snip>
For many of the dead, the impact of the crashes, the intense heat, and the tremendous weight of the collapsing structures vaporized, burned, or pulverized blood and tissue, and literally nothing was left or was mangled beyond recognition. Significantly, the identities of only ten victims were confirmed by visual identification alone. The rest required dental records, fingerprints, or DNA testing. But without a corpse or a fragment of the remains for DNA identification, there can be no identification, no proof that a loved one was indeed killed. At WTC, the task is enormous for several thousand body parts have been recovered from Ground Zero. It will take months of DNA analysis before matches can be made, if ever, and the 98 missing at the WTC may never be identified.
http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/topic19/tpc19_1.htm

Fate and luck often determined whether one lived or died on September 11. Cantor Fitzgerald, a firm that had its offices in the north tower AT THE POINT OF THE CRASH IMPACT and in the floors above, did not have a single survivor among those trapped in the inferno.
http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/topic19/tpc19_1.htm

USA TODAY estimates that at least 200 people jumped to their deaths that morning, far more than can be seen in the photographs taken that morning. Nearly all were from the north tower, which was hit first and collapsed last. Fewer than a dozen were from the south tower.
The jumping started shortly after the first jet hit at 8:46 a.m. People jumped continuously during the 102 minutes that the north tower stood. Two people jumped as the north tower began to fall at 10:28 a.m., witnesses said.
For those who jumped, the fall lasted 10 seconds. They struck the ground at just less than 150 miles per hour — not fast enough to cause unconsciousness while falling, but fast enough to ensure instant death on impact. People jumped from all four sides of the north tower. They jumped alone, in pairs and in groups.
Most came from the north tower's 101st to 105th floors, where the Cantor Fitzgerald bond firm had offices, and the 106th and 107th floors, where a conference was underway at the Windows on the World restaurant. Others leaped from the 93rd through 100th floor offices of Marsh & McLennan insurance company.
Intense smoke and heat, rather than flames, pushed people into this horrific choice. Flight 11 struck the 94th through 98th floors of the north tower, shooting heat and smoke up elevator shafts and stairways in the center of the building. Within minutes, it would have been very difficult to breathe. That drove people to the windows 1,100 to 1,300 feet above ground.
<snip>
She says the medical examiner's office couldn't determine who jumped because the injuries were similar to those suffered by the people killed in the collapse of the towers. THE MANNER OF DEATH FOR ALL THOSE WHO DIED WAS LISTED AS HOMICIDE ON DEATH CERTIFICATES.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-02-jumper_x.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2044553.stm

It is so very sad that the point of impact
was EXACTLY at the offices of Cantor Fitzgerald.
It is even more upsetting that the poor brokers
who took the short way down
were,
for the most part,
NEVER IDENTIFIED,
and their deaths were never reported
to the Social Security Adminsistration.
But we are certain that the US Navy knows all about those deaths,
since,
Mr Thomas Barnett, was himself a Cantor Fitzgerald employee.

This blueprint for America's defense force comes wrapped in a presentation devised by Mr. Barnett that samples the "ching ching" sound effect from the television series "Law & Order," borrows lines from the Sopranos and features the voice of movie character Austin Powers calling out "Oh yeah, baby!" to punctuate a key idea. At one point, upsetting some, Mr. Barnett refers to 9/11 as the "first live-broadcast, mass snuff film in human history."
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Pentagon-Thomas-Barnett11may04.htm

Now, I have been effectively silenced from discussing the affairs of Mr. Thomas Barnett. But I intend to get around that by discussing the affairs of retired Marine Corps Lt. Gen. Paul Van Riper.

Paul Van Riper believes that no amount of new technology will ever change the basic nature of war, which he calls a "terrible, uncertain, chaotic, bloody business."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wartech/nature.html

Mr. Barnett bets that advanced technologies will allow the U.S. to fight wars with smaller, high-tech formations. Some military analysts, such as retired Marine Corps Lt. Gen. Paul Van Riper, think that's naive. Gen. Van Riper, who plays the enemy in Pentagon war games, says enemies could too easily hide from the Leviathan force's sophisticated surveillance. He also thinks the System Administrator force wouldn't be strong enough to defend itself in places such as Fallujah.
"I admire Adm. Cebrowski," he says. "But this is absolute nonsense from folks who are thinking about war as they want it to be, not as it actually is. War is a terribly nasty, brutish business."
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Pentagon-Thomas-Barnett11may04.htm

The name Van Riper draws either scowls or rolling eyes at the Pentagon these days, but there are anecdotal signs that he has the quiet support of the uniformed military, who, after all, will be the first to discover whether the Iraq invasion plans work in real life.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,787017,00.html

NOVA: So do you think Millennium Challenge 2002 was a waste?
Van Riper: I'm angered that, in a sense, $250 million was wasted. But I'm even more angry that an idea that has never been truly validated, that never really went through the crucible of a real experiment, is being exported to our operational forces to use.
What I saw in this particular exercise and the results from it were very similar to what I saw as a young second lieutenant back in the 1960s, when we were taught the systems engineering techniques that Mr. McNamara had implemented in the American military. We took those systems, which had good if not great utility in the acquisition of weapon systems, to the battlefield, where they were totally inappropriate. The computers in Saigon said we were winning the war, while out there in the rice paddies we knew damn well we weren't winning the war. That's where we went astray, and I see these new concepts potentially being equally as ill-informed and equally dangerous.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wartech/nature.html

BIO
http://www.thefutureoflife.com/speakers/riper.htm
http://slate.msn.com/id/2080814

1 Who is this coming from Edom,
from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson?
Who is this, robed in splendor,
striding forward in the greatness of his strength?
"It is I, speaking in righteousness,
mighty to save."
2 Why are your garments red,
like those of one treading the winepress?
3 "I have trodden the winepress alone;
from the nations no one was with me.
I trampled them in my anger
and trod them down in my wrath;
their blood spattered my garments,
and I stained all my clothing.
-- ISAIAH 63

As I have said previously,
I have been effectively silenced
from discussing the affairs of Thomas Barnett.
So let us take a look at other powerpoint presentations.

Posted Wednesday, Aug. 7, 2002, at 4:49 PM PT
The Page One story, by Thomas E. Ricks ("Briefing Depicted Saudis as Enemies: Ultimatum Urged To Pentagon Board," Aug. 6 2002), described a 24-slide presentation given by Rand Corp. analyst Laurent Murawiec on July 10, 2002, to the Defense Policy Board, a committee of foreign policy wonks and former government officials that advises the Pentagon on defense issues. Murawiec's PowerPoint scenario, which is reproduced for the first time below, makes him sound like an aspiring Dr. Strangelove.
Just who the hell is Laurent Murawiec? The Post story and its follow-up, also by Ricks, do not explain. The Pentagon and the administration insist that the presentation does not reflect their views in any way. The Rand Corp. acknowledges its association with Murawiec, but likewise disavows any connection with the briefing. (Neither Murawiec nor Rand received money for the briefing, Rand says.) According to Newsday, Defense Policy Board Chairman Richard N. Perle, a former Pentagon official and full-time invade-Iraq hawk, invited Murawiec to brief the group, so Perle can't exactly distance himself from the presentation. But he can do the next best thing—duck reporters' questions. Murawiec also declined reporters' inquiries, including one from Slate.
The first half of Murawiec's presentation reads calmly enough, echoing Fareed Zakaria's Oct. 15, 2001, Newsweek essay about why the Arab world hates the United States. Its tribal, despotic regimes bottle up domestic dissent but indulge the exportation of political anger; intellectually, its people are trapped in the Middle Ages; its institutions lack the tools to deal with 21st-century problems; yadda yadda yadda.
But then Murawiec lights out for the extreme foreign policy territory, recommending that we threaten Medina and Mecca, home to Islam's most holy places, if they don't see it our way. Ultimately, he champions a takeover of Saudi Arabia. The last slide in the deck, titled "Grand strategy for the Middle East," abandons the outrageous for the incomprehensible. It reads:
Iraq is the tactical pivot
Saudi Arabia the strategic pivot
Egypt the prize
Egypt the prize?
Because none of the Defense Policy Board attendees are talking candidly about the session, it's hard to divine what "Egypt the prize" means or if Murawiec's briefing put it into any context. It sounds a tad loopy, even by Dr. Strangelove standards.
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2069119

Originally, this was the "Kissinger plan,'' says James Akins, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia. He lost his state department job for publicly criticizing administration plans to control Arab oil back in 1975 when Henry Kissinger was secretary of state. "I thought they were crazy then and they're crazy now,'' Akins tells the Star, adding that Congress studied plans to control Persian Gulf oil and concluded the idea was absolute madness. "I thought this whole thing was dead. But now you've got all these `neo-cons' in power, and here we go again,'' says Akins, a Washington-based consultant. "They figure once they take over Iraq, they don't have to worry about the Saudis.''
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2003/0309oilwar.htm

April 25, 2002
ROBERT SIEGEL, host: One aspect of the Saudi-US relationship is financial. The Saudis bank much of their considerable national wealth in the United States in dollars. According to Youssef Ibrahim of the Council on Foreign Relations, the Saudis are so distressed by US Middle East policy right now that some bankers are making noises about taking Saudi deposits elsewhere.
http://www.cfr.org/pub4640/youssef_michel_ibrahim/youssef_ibrahim_discusses_saudi_feelings_toward_the_us.php

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,953563,00.html

Wednesday August 21, 2002
The dollar today fell from recent highs against the euro and yen following a report that Saudi investors were pulling billions of dollars out of the US.
According to the Financial Times, disgruntled Saudis have withdrawn as much as $200bn (£131bn) as relations between the US and Saudi Arabia come under increasing strain.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,11599,778380,00.html

Sept. 18, 2004, 5:59PM
After Sept. 11, 2001, Lebanese officials and Arab visitors say, many wealthy Saudis and Gulf Arabs no longer felt welcome on their customary trips to Europe and the United States because of harsh questioning at airports and suspicion on the streets.
Further, many worry about political unrest and al-Qaida-inspired attacks in their own countries and see second homes in Lebanon as a possible refuge.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/2801748

19/09/2004
Report: Saudi expects a $29.8 billion financial surplus
http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story_s.asp?StoryId=63649

Last year, Saudi public debt stood at $173bn - or 94% of gross domestic product.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3626748.stm
Isn't is strange how an oil-rich state like Saudi Arabia can be flat broke, while another nation can run up debts into the trillions and remain solvent?
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world_business/view/104948/1/.html
Not that it matters,
Saudi Arabian petro-dollars are set to recommence flowing back into the US coffers.

Posted 9/3/2004 7:44 PM Updated 9/7/2004 8:14 AM
NEW YORK — Cantor Fitzgerald, the bond brokerage that suffered more deaths in the Sept. 11 attacks than any other company, Friday sued al-Qaeda, Saudi Arabia and dozens of foreign companies seeking damages related to the attacks on the World Trade Center.
The suit, filed as the three-year anniversary of the airplane attacks that killed about 3,000 people approaches, is the latest filed in New York federal court against al-Qaeda, including one last year by a group of insurance companies.
It seeks billions of dollars in damages, charging that the al-Qaeda carried off the attacks with the aid of foreign governments and corporations.
The attacks, according to the suit, "could not have been accomplished without the knowing and intentional financial support lent al-Qaeda and its leaders by a global network of banks, financial institutions, charities, relief organizations, businesses, individual financiers, foreign governments and foreign governmental officials."
Cantor Fitzgerald, which said it lost 658 employees in the attacks, is seeking to join the previous lawsuit filed by insurance companies, saying in court papers it would conserve time and resources.
The Cantor Fitzgerald lawsuit took particular aim at Saudi Arabia, saying the kingdom "knew and intended that these Saudi-based charity and relief organization defendants would provide financial and material support and substantial assistance to al-Qaeda."
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/brokerage/2004-09-03-cantor-lawsuit_x.htm

This is the operative phrase:
Cantor Fitzgerald ... said it lost 658 employees in the attacks ....
And that was just where we came in.

[Ferry Fey]

57. Seat numbers

"Similarly the BBC reported the transcript of the conversation from the cell-phone of stewardess Madeline Amy Sweeney on United Airlines flight 93 to Boston air-traffic control. She gave the hijackers' seat-numbers; these were not the seats of the alleged Arab hijackers."

DulceDecorum, I'm very impressed by your research, and have been trying to find the threads where you are a major participant. Thank you. Would you happen to have a list of links to your threads that you feel would be most crucial to read?

I have a question about seat numbers. Am I right in assuming that the only way we have of determining who was allegedly in any particular seat is from implied or overtly stated information given in alleged phone calls from the planes? (If I don't say so, you can probably mentally insert an "alleged" in front of much of the information where I otherwise omit it)

Being someone who prefers to take in information visually, high on my wish list is diagrams of the 4 planes with "known"/assumed positions of the people involved throughout the flight, noted by the differing narratives that may conflict for the same flight, and also able to be sorted by the implied or overtly stated time, or movement of particular people.

It would of necessity be fairly sophisticated graphically (calling Edward Tufte!). You'd have to make sure that whatever symbols you used to represent individuals was clear enough to differentiate them at a glance. Different colors or shapes for crew, hijackers, passengers, with initials on each? Perhaps some very slow animation might be in order, but nothing that couldn't be stopped at any point by viewers who need to be able to see every individual component.

Something like that might more vividly underscore the contradictions in the information that has been claimed, compared to the endless details of narrative which all begin to blur together.

[spooked911]

58. Somewhere in these threads is a graphic of the flight 11 seating

I don't know where it is here, but it originally came from a newspaper. It had some of the stuff you wanted.

And, I also love Dulce's posts. Great stuff.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

59. I was curious about Barbara Olson, and used the SS Death Data Base

There is no record of her death.
Last Name OLSON 58253 58253
First Name BARBARA 162274 109
Death Year 2001 Scanned
Death Month 09 Scanned

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

60. Is it possible that the names don't come up because the bodies

were never recovered?

[Ferry Fey]

61. Plane seating diagrams

Anything that came from the press was undoubtedly a fairly static artifact, with inadequate sourcing for the claims and no reconciliation or even observation of contradictions.

[RedSock]

62. here is the seating diagram for AA11

http://www.1918redsox.com/aa11.htm

as far as i know, similar diagrams for the other flights were not produced.

[Ferry Fey]

66. Who produced that Flight 11 seating diagram?

Thank you for the link, Red Sock.

I'm seeing a credit to NY Times, Boston Globe, and SH (who's SH?)

Is it known who actually produced that diagram? Where it was first published? Whether the "flight manifest" showing seat numbers actually came directly from American Airlines, and when?

What is the significance of Albert Dominguez, and his being Australian -- does this mean it originally comes from a mainstream Australian source?

From one of the passenger profile lists: "Albert Dominguez, 66, was a baggage handler for Qantas Airways in Sydney, Australia. He was traveling on holiday at the time of his death. He was married with four children. "

Wait, would that "SH" thus be the Australian Sydney Morning Herald (as opposed to the Sidney Herald of Sidney Montana)?

All I'm finding that comes up that immediately raises questions is this from the Webfairy site:

Still ongoing, also a very interesting new investigation about FLIGHT 11.
It appears now, that the flight departed at "Gate 32", not "26", as reported in all other articles.

I wanna bring an update about that next week.
It seems, that one of the key elements of these new inconsistencies is the SAAB 340, the Quantas Codeshares, Chautauqua Airlines (Republic Airways Holdings) and the distance
between GATE 32 (Terminal C) and GATE 26 (Terminal B).




Keep in mind, Terminal B serves America West, American, American Eagle,
American Trans Air, Business Express, Metro Jet, Midway, Qantas, US Airways, US Airways Shuttle and
US Airways Express. It contains gates 1 to 27.

So where is Gate "thirty-two" ?
The air controller radio transcript mentions a SAAB
with 30 seats

Qantas said, that one of its US-based staff members was travelling on company business "aboard
American Airlines Flight 11 from Boston to Los Angeles".

(from the Passenger list, officially with with 92 people on board:
Albert Dominguez, 66, was a baggage handler for Qantas Airways in Sydney, Australia.

Laura Lee Morabito, 34, was the Qantas Airways area sales manager in Boston.)

http://thewebfairy.com/video/collected/bushin30seconds/911skeptics.blogspot.com.htm

But I don't know anything about codeshares (is that where a scheduled flight is sort of a condo affair as far as several airlines calling it under their own code numbers, or what?)

[John Doe II]

65. Death certificat

A death certificat was issued to all passengers of AA 77 and UA 93.

[MrSammo1]

75. The really strange thing is.........

how very few of the families of the passengers took the 911 Victim's Compensation money.

[philb]

63. Group of military and commercial pilots conclude 9/11 by remote control

72 hour symposium of military and commercial pilots organized by Col. Donn de Grand-Pre unanimously conclude 9/11 by carried out by remote control technology

Colonel Donn de Grand Pre (ret), was the top US arms negotiator and dealer to the Middle East under the Ford and Carter administrations.
His book, concludes that the 911 terror attacks were done by government insiders and used remote control technology.

Col. Donn de Grand-Pre organized a symposium in Portugal for a 72-hour non-stop meeting of pilots to try to assess what happened on 9/11. the group of pilots were a wonderful mix of commercial, military and civilian pilots. At any rate, after three days, the decisions were unanimous. And I wrote my 24-page report up and submitted it to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. After deliberating non-stop for 72-hours the group has concluded that the flight crews of the four passenger airliners involved in the September 11th tragedy had no control over the aircraft. The planes were taken control of by remote control. And they get into how the military industrial complex clearly, that is elements of it, were in control of this . This is all explained in my books.

Book 2 is "The Viper's Venom," Book 3 which just came out is "The Rattler's Revenge

Portugal News Online- Portugal's National Weekend Newspaper in English 3-08-2002
(discussion of the symposium and of his books can be found on dozens of web sites)

[philb]

64. Some of symposium pilots statements- no hijackers flying the planes

The extremely skillful maneuvering of the three aircraft at near mach speeds, each unerringly hitting their targets, was superb. As one Air Force officer -- a veteran of over 100 sorties over North Vietnam -- explained, "Those birds (commercial airliners) either had a crack fighter pilot in the left seat, or they were being maneuvered by remote control."

Another pilot warned that "we had better consider whether electro-magnetic pulse or radio frequency weapons were used from a command and control platform hovering over the Eastern Seaboard... I'm talkin' AWACS."

Another comment: "If there was an AWACS on station over the targeted area, did it have a Global Hawk capability? I mean, could it convert the commercial jets to robotic flying missiles?

A hotly debated question: Who would be in command of such an Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS)? Were they Chinese -- Russians -- Saudis -- Israelis -- NATO ? All of these countries possess AWACS-type aircraft. All (except the Saudis) have the capability to utilize electro-magnetic pulsing (EMP) to knock out on-board flight controls and communications of targeted aircraft, and then, to fly them by remote control.

One of the Air Force officers explained that we had already flown a robot plane the size of a Boeing 737 across the Pacific to Australia -- unmanned -- from Edwards AF13 in California to a successful landing on an Aussie base in South Australia. It flies along a pre-programmed flight path, but is "monitored" (controlled remotely) by a pilot from an outside station.

He explained that the London Economist (20 Sep 2001) published comments from the former CEO of British Airways, Robert Ayling, who stated that an aircraft could be commandeered from the ground or air and controlled remotely in the event of a hijack.


Kent Hill is a retired Air Force captain.
He is convinced none of the pilots had control of their aircraft when they were flown into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. The question then becomes, who was really in control?

"Even if I had a gun at my head, I'd never fly a plane into a building. I'd try to put it in anywhere -- a field or a river --and I'd be searing the hell out of them (the hijackers) by flying upside down first," Hill said.

In fact, the pilot has the best weapon in his hand when threatened with imminent death by a hijacker, namely, the airplane.

Another airline pilot stated. "On hearing a major scuffle in the cabin, the pilot should have inverted the aircraft and the hijackers end up with broken necks."

That none of the four pilots executed such a maneuver points toward the fact that none of them had control of their aircraft, but had been overridden by an outside force, which was flying them by remote control.

As an old and not so bold pilot, I became more convinced that the four commercial jets were choreographed by a "conductor" from a central source, namely an airborne warning and control system (AWACS). They have the electronic capability to engage several aircraft simultaneously, knock out their on-board flight controls by EMP (electro-magnetic pulsing) and assume command and remote control of these targeted aircraft.

[philb]

67. Col. de Grand-pre also stated that the Happy Holigans shot down UA 93

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/06/291545.shtml

[Ferry Fey]

68. Questions about Flight 11 seating diagram

Bumping to ask the unanswered questions I posted in message 66 about the Flight 11 (there's a bit more background there that you might want to check out):

Is it known who actually produced that diagram? Where it was first published? Whether the "flight manifest" showing seat numbers actually came directly from American Airlines, and when?

What is the significance of Albert Dominguez, and his being Australian -- does this mean it originally comes from a mainstream Australian source?

And here's a more tactical question about this particular board software and optimal posting practice:

If I'm responding to a message that's further up the page yet I want to make sure what I'm saying gets more widely read, should I just be replying to the last message on the page no matter what? In this case, in 66 I responded to Red Sock to say thank you, which ensures thread purity, but my further questions got buried up there instead of getting more timely reading by those who didn't look up there.

[Lithos]

76. Locking

Thread is out of context.

Lithos
9/11 Forum Moderator