criminals in action -- KSM waterboarded 183 tmes in a month by the CIA

[spooked911]

http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/04/cia-waterboarded-al-qaeda-suspect-183-times-in-1-month-memo-reveals/

Clearly
1) the people who carried this out are absolute psychopathic monsters
2) waterboarding is not an effective interrogation tactic if it needed to be used so much
3) any intel or info obtained from KSM is worthless

Yet we're still supposed to believe the official 9/11 story when the people who are "protecting us from terrorism" are complete psychopathic monsters and the interrogation of al Qaeda terrorists is a complete fraud!!!?????!!!!???????

I DON'T THINK SO.

[SDuderstadt]

1. it's pretty lame to claim one can only get...

the story on 9/11 from ''psycopathic monsters''. you really need to take a critical thinking class.

[spooked911]

4. you're not making sense

[Bolo Boffin]

7. Yes, he is.

Our understanding of what happened on 9/11 isn't predicated simply on what people who would go on to condone torture told us.

[spooked911]

14. Thanks for translating his unclear post for me

Nonetheless-- the point is that for 9/11, THE PSYCHOPATHIC MONSTERS WERE THE ONES RUNNING THE SHOW.

And ordinary people, as I presume your picture is supposed to show, gave very conflicting accounts of exactly what happened!

[Bolo Boffin]

22. Now you are begging the question. n/t

[spooked911]

65. the simple fact is that all our info on al Qaeda doing 9/11 comes from these psychopaths

and ordinary people followed the CIA script.

The CIA clearly cannot be trusted here-- so why do you trust their version of events?

[BeFree]

69. That is the crux

The same people who did the waterboarding are the same who made up the OCT.

There can be no denying that fact.

[SDuderstadt]

70. Lawrence Wright did the waterboarding?

Now, I didn't know that! (Snicker)

[SDuderstadt]

12. No, YOU'RE not making sense...

you're the one who's claiming the WTC was nuked, remember?

[spooked911]

15. Yes, I remember

and I have several good lines of evidence to back it up.

[SDuderstadt]

17. Umm, no you don't, Spooked...

which has been amply pointed out here. This is why you've become an inside joke here like SLAD. Do you realize that nearly everyone here is laughing at you?

[spooked911]

25. I don't think so

but if you are laughing, you're a sick person...

but we already knew that about the people who defend the official story every minute of every day here.


ooooh! better call the moderator on me! oooh, I called you out! oooh, I'm so busted!

[SDuderstadt]

26. Damn it, Spooked...

for the last fucking time, countering your goofy theories is NOT defending the official story, as much as you try to portray it that way. Again, this is why you've become an inside joke here.

[spooked911]

39. hmm-- please tell us then, what is your position on what happened on 9/11?

Since you disagree with/mock everyone who deviates from the official story (OS), I'm not sure how you can say you don't defend the OS... but if you do disagree with the OS, let us know how.

[SDuderstadt]

40. As I have said over and over...

I defy you to define what the "official story" is. It's pretty silly to claim there is some unified version of the events of that day. I have also condemned Bush, etal, for their actions after 9/11. Invading Iraq was stupid and Bush's attacks on liberty in this country deserve indictment. prosecutio0n and conviction. However, that doesn't mean that Bush planned or executed the 9/11 attacks and it certainly doesn't mean that the WTC was brought down with nukes. I'm going to ask you once more nicely to stick to the subject matter and quit impugning people's motivation simply because they don't agree with you an the facts. It's really annoying.

[spooked911]

42. well then, I think you damn well know what "the official 9/11 story" means

and you are obfuscating here.

As are you obfuscating about the significance of KSM being waterboarded 183 times in a month. You have to realize how this casts extreme doubt upon the people who have sold the story of Al Qaeda and 9/11 to us, given their monstrous psychopathic nature.

[SDuderstadt]

43. for cryin' out loud, spooked...

there were thousands of witnesses to the various events of 9/11. it's pretty silly to contend that all of them had something to do with waterboarding ksm. the problem with conspiracy theorists such as yourself is that you take disparate facts about an event and cobble them together into a ludicrous narrative that only makes sense to others equally lacking in critical thinking skills.

more offensively, you attempt to buttress your absurd allegations by impugning the motivation of people like myself who can easily see that you have zero evidence for silly claims like the ''wtc was nuked''. for the record, ksm should not have been waterboarded even one time and i am disappointed that the administration has chosen not to pursue prosecution of those responsible for torture.

but that doesn't prove your absurd allegations and your blindly lashing out at anyone who points out your failure to prove your case shows your aversion to basic principles of debate. if you want to continue this ''debate'', you need to identify what standard of proof it would take to convince you that you're wrong. if you respond that there is nothing that can convince you of that, then further ''debate'' is pointless, in that you have demonstrated a total lack of open-mindedness. i am not the enemy, spooked, and i would appreciate it greatly if you would cease impugning my motivation and stick to the facts.

[spooked911]

44. Who is not open-minded here?

I am very open-minded, and willing to look at new evidence.

I see insane levels of torture by the CIA, and suggest that these people are not to be trusted re: 9/11 and terrorism. You, on the other hand, offer no other explanation other than that it shouldn't have been done. But WHY was it done?

DO you agree or not, that waterboarding KSM 183 times in one month, gave little to no useful information?

DO you agree or not, that waterboarding KSM 183 times in one month showed monstrous psychopathic behavior on the part of the Bush administration and the CIA?

DO you agree or not, that waterboarding KSM 183 times in one month, showed that the Bush administration and the CIA were not seriously interested in obtaining useful information from KSM?

As far as the other points, I have given extensive evidence about nukes at the WTC. You may write it off, laugh it off, ignore it, etc, but that doesn't mean there is no evidence.

You accuse me of saying that your motivations are not pure here. At the same time, you repeatedly accuse me of craziness, idiocy, silliness, absurdity, etc. So take me seriously, and I will be more likely to take you seriously too.

THIS IS NOT A LAUGHING MATTER. Your inability to respond with any substance to my points really helps to prove my case, over and over.

You STILL HAVE NOT OFFERED AN EXPLANATION FOR WHY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION WENT OVERBOARD WITH THE TORTURE. I'M NOT ASKING FOR YOU TO APOLOGIZE FOR THEM. I'M ASKING FOR AN EXPLANATION FOR THEIR BEHAVIOR THAT SUPPORTS THE OFFICIAL 9/11 STORY.

[SDuderstadt]

45. i fucking give up...

i am not here to, nor is it my job to, defend the bush administration. i don't. but the torture does not negate the events of 9/11 and it's silly to contend that the only source of information about 9/11 was obtained from ksm.

do you think open-mindedness requires accepting things without requiring evidence? i believe you'll find little support here for your claim that the wtc was ''nuked'' because others can easily see what i see...your ''evidence'' is supposition with no real concrete evidence. don't blame others for your poor research and reasoning skills.

[spooked911]

47. I am not asking you to defend the Bush administration

I asked you why you thought they tortured so, and then a series of questions, which you have ignored.

Sorry you can't handle a few questions.

As far as the nuking of the WTC, there is a separate thread for discussing that.

[SDuderstadt]

49. I would think that my comment that...

KSM should not have been waterboarded at all should suffice. I can't speak for the Bush administration, but I am relieved they are gone. And your "the WTC was nuked" is still a stupid claim.

[spooked911]

52. you have no interest in the fact that KSM was waterboarded to an insane degree?

and the psychology and motives that did that?

[SDuderstadt]

53. I'm going to ask you one last time to quit putting words in my mouth, Spooked...

I already SAID KSM should never have been waterboarded even once. Can you fucking read???

[spooked911]

54. I know you said that, but I was hoping you'd have an explanation for the insane degree

of waterboarding-- as I've asked for here, over and over.

[SDuderstadt]

55. can you read, spooked?

what do you think ''ksm should not have been waterboarded even one time'' means? do you think it means i approved of the bush administration's actions? i don't fucking know why they did it and i certainly don't owe you an explanation on their behalf. why don't you ask them???

[spooked911]

58. OK-- you don't know why they were out of control with the torture,

and you apparently don't care about the implications for 9/11. It seems if you have no alternative explanation for their behaviour, then my explanation must be the right one.

[NowHearThis]

59. By George, I think you've got it.

Sometimes torture (and the threat of it) is necessary to maintain "unit cohesion".

[spooked911]

60. I hope you are being sarcastic

[NowHearThis]

62. Why would you say that?

Torture is used by the po-po to induce people to confess to whatever it is the po-po wants confessed. In the case of larger
criminal organizations, it IS very often used to maintain "unit cohesion".

[Bolo Boffin]

2. More cum hoc

Are we supposed to believe these people when they say they don't poison America with chemtrails, or that they aren't hiding the alien contacts, or that the sky is blue?????

Get real. Judge each case on its merits.

[seemslikeadream]

3. Vietnam

Operation Popeye

[AZCat]

5. What about Vietnam?

Are you saying we should judge it on its own merits, or that it is part of a pattern? Or both?

[seemslikeadream]

8. Waylon "Ben" Livingston,

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS133159+23-Sep-2008+PRN20080923

Weather modification expert Waylon "Ben" Livingston, a former NOAA project
director with a degree in cloud physics, finds this laughable. He believes
"seeding" a hurricane requires as few as two small aircraft to drop material
into it and decelerate its devastating winds.

[seemslikeadream]

9. Operation Popeye

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Popeye
Operation Popeye (Project Popeye/Motorpool/Intermediary-Compatriot) was a US military cloud seeding operation (running from March 20, 1967 until July 5, 1972) during the Vietnam war to extend the monsoon season over Laos, specifically areas of the Ho Chi Minh Trail. The operation seeded clouds with silver iodide, resulting in the targeted areas seeing an extension of the monsoon period an average of 30 to 45 days. As the continuous rainfall slowed down the truck traffic, it was considered relatively successful.<1> The 54th Weather Reconnaissance Squadron carried out the operation to "make mud, not war." <2>

[AZCat]

10. You could probably update your reference.

The Chinese had a weather modification program set up for the 2008 summer Olympics.

[seemslikeadream]

11. This is U.S. commander with the U.S. Navy in Korea and Vietnam

http://www.policyholdersofamerica.org/pdf_public/Ben_Livingston.pdf


Midland Reporter Telegram | September 25, 2005By Jimmy PattersonWaylon "Ben" Livingston knows his ideas are controversial, so he steps lightly when talking about them. His theories have been proven, the technology is in place. Research shows hisideas could save hundreds, maybe even thousands, of lives. He is a fascinating man with credentials as long as the wingspan of the airplanes he flew as a commander with the U.S. Navy in Korea and Vietnam.Livingston, 77, moved to Midland with his parents during the Depression. He earned his master's degree in cloud physics from the Naval Weapons Center and Navy Post Graduate School in California, a degree he would use in the battlefields. He seeded clouds and dramatically increased rainfall in his theater of war, creating impassably muddy roads, slowing down the Vietnamese and Korean troops, and saving lives and entire towns from occupation. He is proudest of his award from the secretary of Navy, which says, "Lt. Livingston directlyparticipated in project flights in a combat zone, in program planning, scientific data collectionand evaluation ... his unwavering devotion to duty were major factors in the outstanding success of the project and were instrumental in the development of a unique, major combat capability for the United States." Before receiving the citation, Livingston was invited to the White House where he briefed President Lyndon B. Johnson on the effectiveness of weather control activities and the resulting slowing of traffic by the military support trucks bringing supplies to Southeast Asian troops. Livingston's findings deal with hurricanes and what scientists call weather modifications. His research includes 265 missions into the eyes of hurricanes and he calls himself maybe the "most disgusted" person in the country about Hurricane Katrina. The storm, he says simply, could have been dramatically curtailed, the damage minimized, the levees of New Orleans saved.Livingston works with scientists and pilots at Weather Modification Inc., in Fargo, N.D. His theories also have been verified by staffers there. He has logged 15,000 hours of hurricane reconnaissance experience and all of his penetrations into the eyes of hurricanes were of the low-level variety -- where he would fly in from low altitude then up and into the eye. He said the refraction of light onto the water through the eye of a hurricane is the most beautiful and memorable site he has ever witnessed. It was made even more so after nightfall when the stars and moon work together. "In the 1960s, a national priority of our government was hurricane control," Livingston said."Silver iodide is used as a nuclei that causes raindrops to form. The original hypothesis is thatif you get enough rain or cool air into a hurricane you can diminish its velocity and strength. When I left the military in the 1960s, we had the ability to do that, and reduce wind velocity inhurricanes by 25 percent and damage caused by a hurricane by 63 percent." Livingston said his research of hurricane control was confirmed by the Stanford Research Institute. The program of controlling hurricanes, though, was mysteriously dropped by the federal government because of, as he termed it, "politics and professional jealousy."Livingston said powerful Washington lobbies control areas preventing the reinstatement of the
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hurricane-reduction program, and when asked why it has not yet been resinstated, Livingston cites what he calls an "industry of destruction." Livingston said his return trip this week to the WMI in Fargo will hopefully result in areinstatement of his program in 2006. Although he says hurricane control is one thing the government should definitely be trying to do, he suggested hurricane control be privatized. "You'd think the insurance and energy sectors would jump all over something like this, butthey're not willing to go counter to a government agency," he said. The hurricane control program, he said, is a "no-brainer when it is explained in simple terms," but he admitted it would cost millions of dollars to get off the ground."The bottom line is, you cannot make an argument against saving lives and propertry," Livingston said."If it can be done, it ought to be done."Livingston, who does not believe global warming is to blame for the recent spate of deadlyhurricanes along the Gulf coast, said reinstating the hurricane control program would have a greater impact for the good of the country. "Someone a lot smarter than I am could make a significant contribution to our nation if they would just sit down with a half-dozen other smart people and talk about this," Livingston said.

[AZCat]

13. The problem with Livingston's idea...

is that weather is a chaotic system.

[seemslikeadream]

16. so are a lot of things but that doesn't stop the people who love torture and such

[AZCat]

19. I'm not sure if "love" is the right word. n/t

[seemslikeadream]

20. oh I am for sure about that more than anything else in the world

[AZCat]

23. More than anything else in the world?

You and I must live very different lives.

[seemslikeadream]

27. and you have read the torture memos?

[SDuderstadt]

18. Congratulations on your most incoherent post yet, SLAD...

you continue to amaze me.

[seemslikeadream]

21. You are amazed because you know so little, but I am not amazed by that at all

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seemslikeadream]

28. stop with the inside joke stuff SD just because you repeat something over and over and over does not

make it fact, only in your _ _ _ _ _ _ mind

[SDuderstadt]

29. Actually, it's you repeating ponderously long, incoherent posts over and over...

that makes you an inside joke, SLAD.

[seemslikeadream]

30. I've got a little proposition for ya SD

If you can gather more than 7 "insiders" here that will come forward then will talk again but until then your proposterious accusations are getting rather old, tired and lame. And just cause you post shit doesn't make it so, and it is YOUR credibility on the line here.


That's 7 out of 139,451 should be that hard for ya

[SDuderstadt]

31. You think "we'll" is spelled "will"?

Now you know why you're an inside joke. SLAD.

I don't know if they will "come forward" but they are easily named:

Myself
William Seger
Bolo Boffin
Lared
AzCat
Greyl
John Berryhill...

Let me know if you need more...there are plenty where those came from.

[seemslikeadream]

32. please be my guest I said 7 and they must come forward and commit to your "insider" stuff

and no fair counting all the banned members

Come on now you've got 139,444 left



Why do you think I said 7? Cause that's all ya got asshole

[SDuderstadt]

34. Apparently, you can't count, either

Please point to anyone I named who is banned. It's up to them whether they want to "commit". No one really cares whether you talk to us anymore, SLAD.

[seemslikeadream]

35. Well you named them so cough it up SD and I'll go ten to one with ya

[SDuderstadt]

36. And you'd still be an inside joke, SLAD...

Hint: DU isn't real life, SLAD

[seemslikeadream]

37. Oh you are not a real person? That's your excuse?

[SDuderstadt]

38. Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

Does that explain all your non sequiturs?

[seemslikeadream]

33. When you make a mistake it is just a mistake, remember?

[spooked911]

6. I am judging this case on its merits-- and the case stinks

it's not like I am comparing random things!

There is a direct connection between the CIA, terrorism and psychopaths. And I'm saying the official story stinks-- and I'm sure you know it which is why you are pulling out these desperate arguments.

[NowHearThis]

41. Spooked's "direct connection"

Amen, brother.

[NowHearThis]

46. Maybe they used torture to make sure that KSM ...

kept his trap closed. Why else would they "need" to torture him except for PR purposes (bush is tough on terrorists and rightly so)
and to make it extremely unlikely that KSM would ever spill any beans?

[vincent_vega_lives]

48. This "official story"

What is the original source if this "official story"? By what means was it comunicated?

There is no official story, only millions of individual stories about the events of September 11th, 2001. Each a little different, each just as valid, and each a small part of THE whole story of that day.

[NowHearThis]

50. Sort of made up on the fly.

That about sum it up?

[SDuderstadt]

51. Umm, no....n/t

[NowHearThis]

56. Uh huh, is so and always has been the case. EOM

nt

[SDuderstadt]

57. then it should be rather easy to prove your claim...

why not take a swing at it?

[spooked911]

61. It wasn't just torture either-- detainees were frequently killed

possibly hundreds killed-- at least 25 straight out murdered
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/18/ex-state-dept-official-hundreds-of-detainees-died-in-us-custody-at-least-25-murdered/

[NowHearThis]

63. Well, that'll teach 'em not to mess with our "strategic national

and corporate security interests". Otherwise, among other disappointments, we'd all have to put up with the one or two right-wingers-who-pose-as-truth-defenders who engage in non-stop yelling and screaming about sincere truth seekers, all the while exhibiting signs of an advanced case of the Heebee Jeebees right here on this very site -- simply because most people here can see through the lies of the Gummit and its faithful servants.

[spooked911]

64. CIA: Professional Liars for Propaganga Purposes

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/28/business/media/28abc.html?

In late 2007, there was the first crack of daylight into the government’s use of waterboarding during interrogations of Al Qaeda detainees. On Dec. 10, John Kiriakou, a former C.I.A. officer who had participated in the capture of the suspected terrorist Abu Zubaydah in Pakistan in 2002, appeared on ABC News to say that while he considered waterboarding a form of torture, the technique worked and yielded results very quickly.

Mr. Zubaydah started to cooperate after being waterboarded for “probably 30, 35 seconds,” Mr. Kiriakou told the ABC reporter Brian Ross. “From that day on he answered every question.”

His claims — unverified at the time, but repeated by dozens of broadcasts, blogs and newspapers — have been sharply contradicted by a newly declassified Justice Department memo that said waterboarding had been used on Mr. Zubaydah “at least 83 times.”

[spooked911]

66. putting it simply-- why should believe anything the CIA says about 9/11?

[spooked911]

67. I see you OCTers got nothing

it IS hard to defend torturing, lying psychopaths

[SDuderstadt]

68. Please point to anyone who is...

please be specific.

[spooked911]

71. when you defend the official story of al qaeda

you're defending the CIA

it's that simple

[SDuderstadt]

72. wrong, spooked...

that's just another of your strawman arguments.

[spooked911]

73. not at all-- the point is, you can't trust the CIA-- and they are where the al Qaeda story comes

from...

[SDuderstadt]

74. Bullshit, Spooked....

There are plenty of other sources besides the CIA and, besides, it is the height of hyperbole to imply that the CIA is some monolithic organization comprised entirely of bad guys. In case you didn't know, Leon Panetta is the new director of the CIA and, if you think he is some kind of bad guy, then you're more confused than I thought. What do you think the average CIA HQ employee does? Dream of waterboarding? Or, are they responsible for analyzing and interpreting intel of all kinds so we stay one step ahead of danger?

It is entirely possible to despise CIA abuses, while simultaneously appreciating the hard work of career civil servants who devote themselves to keeping us safe. I'm sure you don't even know how many people work in clandestine services versus who do more mundane things.Valerie Plame was a NOC (non-official cover), one of the riskiest positions to have. Are you really making her out to be a bad guy? Your attempt to render the CIA this all-purpose boogeyman tells me you know little of what they do.