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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 11:48 PM
Original message
Has it occurred to anyone yet that the term "truther" is no better than
any other derogatory term used against a minority? Are you going to call me nigger too? What about spic or faggot? Whop? Wetback?

I don't give a rat's ass about jet fuel or molten steel. Nor to I care about a 12 part documentary for YouTube showing theories about how some video tape may have been retouched. I sincerely do not find any of that important. It is very clear what happened. Some planes appear to have crashed into buildings and the buildings collapsed. Thousands died. All this happened during an administration that had predetermined the wars, based on lies, that followed the event. The members of that administration have been proven outright to be fascists.

HOW EXACTLY this catalyzing event occurred, from a physics standpoint, does it really matter? WHY it occurred and who made it happen is what matters and THAT is what research should be about.

But you folks can't study that from your desk chair and that is why you don't get any further. If you can't find it on the internet, it doesn't exist! Brilliant (right) Lazy, I'd say.

We "don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

We know who profited and we know how the unbelievable has become commonplace since 9/11. Every day the right wing operatives are subverting language, invading schools..pre-K to the university..the media has been taken over by rich pirates.

All this energy wasted...the arguments here are just embarrassing. The way you all tear each other apart is shameful.

"Truther". That's really great isn't it? When you use that word and anyone who does any research or asks questions gets a derogatory label.

Are there folks here who really give a damn about this who use that term? If so, I ask you to reconsider, that is if you really care. If you don't give a damn, go see a shrink. You are clearly a sociopath if this issue doesn't concern you beyond getting your ya-ya's out arguing with "truthers" on a message board.

Cable is showing some really great propaganda right now. Right this very minute...showing footage of people jumping from the windows of the WTC. For those people...can we STOP using this term "Truther" to describe folks who don't buy the bullshit?

And can those of you who are blindly fixated on physics, get a CLUE about where the real work lies to be done? People. People. People made this happen for a reason. Go after them...or please, shut the fuck up.
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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. it lumps together scientists & engineers who ask legit questions
about the official explanation with people who think Obama has no valid birth certificate. It's really just a propaganda trick. I am amazed it didn't backfire yet because I don't know a normal person on the left or the right who believes the official story.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I think it's really damaging and seriously question the motives of anyone who uses
the term. I also can't help but question those who seem to think the answer lies in molecules. All this effort and bad results or the wrong results or just NO results. I get sick of seeing it and really wonder why these detailed discussions that always get no where and many of us honestly care and want to get this out, prosecuted and punished so that it won't ever happen again. I just see misguided egos around here.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
3. Talk to the people in the 9/11 Truth Movement who self-apply.
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 01:13 AM by Bolo Boffin
I've stayed away from the term myself.

ETA: Who or what pulled your string? Why all this sudden vehemence?
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. It isn't sudden. I just don't argue about things I don't know about.
Motive, I know about. Method, that's clear enough. Proof? The lies are plenty to make me know there IS more. And here everyone is arguing doctored tapes and thermite. Although I don't discount wholesale any of these theories I just don't think they are important. I think they are a waste of valuable time.

It has occurred to me that we are hurting ourselves with all this infighting. Ego Ego Ego.

I'm not here to disrupt or stroke my ego. I'm here to try to get people to ask questions about what THEY are doing here. I thought Obama being elected would change things. But due to the same forces that helped the 9/11 job work so well, he can't do shit in many arenas. The lowest common denominator is operating on both sides. I'm hoping maybe I can stir up a little positive action on the side of reality by getting people to consider their motives and perhaps turn around and look to see the path they are on isn't (or shouldn't be) a dark, straight, narrow one.

I think what happened and why is clear and our energies are being wasted here.

Most probably don't really care. I really do.
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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. discussing thermite is relevant
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 06:29 AM by szatmar666
because it ties the way the buildings came down with controlled demolition and makes people think about the simple fact that there is a lot of engineering going into bringing down steel framed buildings in an orderly fashion. If people understand that they will grasp how preposterous the official explanation really is.

I am sorry, but talking about motivation alone cannot substitute for understanding forensics. It takes forensic science to convict criminals. Motivation is just 1 minor element of any conviction: it takes hard evidence such as fingerprints or DNA or in this case thermite to put anyone behind bars. Not everyone on a jury is a forensic expert but they need forensic experts to reach a logical conclusion.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. What I mean here is I don't have to be an expert in this science to
question the official story. Lots of energy is expended by lots of people discussing whether it is possible the buildings were deliberately demolished in some other way than what the official version says. I say of course it is possible and remains so unless someone can PROVE it didn't happen that way. I guess I'd like us to get to this point. Where everyone who has NO PROOF admits there was more than sufficient motive and that there have been significant attempts to cover up the truth or conceal the truth to warrant a serious independent investigation. Then, bring on the thermite experts. We aren't speaking to any jury now. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it shouldn't be discussed...I just think it has been beaten to death where other evidence is left out of the discussion. And I see all the nit picking about it and it gets a bit ridiculous. The point becomes lost entirely in the ego slinging among all the demolition experts and the anti-demolition "experts" around here...

I think one's efforts to educate the public (or is it just an effort to sling egos?) are lost on many who are not made keenly aware of the connections between Bushes and the Saudis and the bin Laden family.

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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. of course it's about more, just read TITLE 14 of the house bill
it amends the Breton Woods agreement to change the IMF governance for the 1st time since its inception to give more voice to developing countries and it starts the process of replacing the US $ as the world reserve currency with a basket of 4 currencies called an SDR.(44% USD 34% EUR 11% GBP 11% JPY ) This is historic, Obama and the dems put in place some of the most important demands of the anti globalization movement since the 90s and something the US was blocking since 1997 when 80% of the 185 IMF member states already voted for. In other words this is about starting to dismantle the empire: it will ultimately stop pitting american workers against enslaved workers of developing countries.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-2346
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-s1054/text
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Please don't get me wrong, but I didn't follow your segue there.
I'll look at the links you provided and maybe I can hope to catch up with you.
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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. just as a quick summary
It's kinda complicated I know but this is the best I can do in a few minutes. Bottom line: Obama and the dems are seemingly doing what Bush did for 6 years, ie. a $91 bn supplemental for Iraq and Afghanistan but in reality he is making huge changes to the system. No wonder corporations and the republicans are losing their mind.

what happened throughout the 90s was a series of free market failures due to IMF policies that used foreign development, such as lending developing countries to develop their infrastructure as a leverage and a tool to drive down the price of their resources and labor practically enslaving them to US multinationals. As a consequence you had cheap labor and free resources available to corporations which made them outsource jobs to those countries. This whole racket was made possible by the floating exchange rate mechanism that made the US $ the world reserve currency so that every currency was dependent on US $ for their value while the US $ did not depend on anything (not even gold since 1972) except for the amount of $ denominated world commerce. Think about playing monopoly and you can print the only money in the game. That made the US able to generate revenues by simply printing dollars while all other countries had to still produce actual products that they could sell on the world markets. This depressed the price of labor. Now that this system is about to be reformed the US will be forced to invest in manufacturing since 56% of all development that used to generate dollar demand now is going to be done in foreign currencies so the US will have to make up the difference by selling real products.
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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. Well then I hope he's better than Jesus
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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. LOL! this is funny, I mixed up my threads! sorry ;)
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 09:29 PM by szatmar666
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Oh, that's a relief. I knew I wasn't THAT out of it!!
:rofl:
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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 02:52 AM
Response to Original message
5. It would undermine the "good war"



As I said when I announced this strategy, there will be more difficult days ahead. The insurgency in Afghanistan didn't just happen overnight and we won't defeat it overnight. This will not be quick, nor easy. But we must never forget: This is not a war of choice. This is a war of necessity. Those who attacked America on 9/11 are plotting to do so again. If left unchecked, the Taliban insurgency will mean an even larger safe haven from which al Qaeda would plot to kill more Americans. So this is not only a war worth fighting. This is a -- this is fundamental to the defense of our people.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-at-the-Veterans-of-Foreign-Wars-convention
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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. the war is propping up the Bush economy
If Obama pulled the plug on it the US would plunge into a depression. the $91 billion he signed into law on June 24th was a shot in the arm for millions who's job depends on the military industrial complex. It will take a few years to build an alternative economy. Gorbachev pulled out of Afghanistan in 1984, 4 years AFTER he took office and AFTER he escalated. You can't just turn on the switch and convert an empire into a democracy over night. All the 911 talk is just a politically convenient excuse.
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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. If Obama wanted to stimulate the MIC he could have kept the F22 alive
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 08:11 AM by jakeXT
http://www.campusprogress.org/fieldreport/4538/what-the-death-of-the-f-22-really-means


I think there are higher goals than just making money with the MIC


But in terms of the New Great Game in Eurasia, as Pepe Escobar argues, that's when the grand American strategy can be perceived in full bloom : it involves nothing less than rehabilitating the "evil" Taliban. Anything goes when it comes to Washington trying to establish an energy corridor from the Caspian to South Asia, bypassing Russia.
http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=4148
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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. I responded to this here
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 05:13 AM
Response to Original message
6. I think a more interesting question is why the term
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 05:14 AM by LARED
truther is starting to be seen as derogatory? And by whom? Truther is a term created by truthers, so what changed?



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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. It is almost always used in a derogatory fashion here. All words start as something...
most obviously, a group of letters of a specific alphabet spaced closely together. As you know, the term is being used as a generalization to lump everyone together who suspects the official story is bullshit. Some of the theories that come out of the work of some of the people who do not buy the official story, are theories I don't feel have much credibility. I want the truth, but I don't really think looking at the science of how the buildings fell is where the truth lies. That sets me apart from a whole lot of people who are also skeptical. Does that make me a "truther"? I don't call myself that and don't like being called a name that associates me with anyone other than the person my words are intended to represent.
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
7. I think "truther" is indeed slanderous. But that isn't the skeptics fault.
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 06:22 AM by Democracyinkind
I am someone who is intensely interested in learning more facts about 9/11 and who spends considerable time on reading up on the new revelations. Yet I wouldn't consider myself a "truther", indeed I also use the term in a defaming, negative way.

But isn't that human? With time you just develop a vocabulary that allows you to group people according to what they claim. IMO, a truther is someone who is preoccupied with questions about how the towers fell and what hit the pentagon, or is counting thermate (mite?)nanomite=? whatever) chips or is trying to convince others that there weren't any planes on 9/11.

While someone who is interested in 9/11 in a scholarly way is more preoccupied with questions about how Ali Mohamed infiltrated the US military and how OBL relates to Gulbudin Hekmatyar or how Far West Ltd. manipulated the Kosovarian and Afghan interventions. Or any such thing.

These are just examples, but anyone interested in 9/11 must admit that there are both serious and ridiculous efforts in finding the "truth", and since many people on the ridiculous side actively call themselves "truthers" it has become the preferred term to apply to the more asinine opinions about 9/11. An entirely natural process.
Maybe it would be fairer to call the first group "twoofers" and the second group "truthers", but that won't happen b/c anyone doing serious research on any subject would never claim to have the "truth" on their side. (If they would do so, there would be no need for them to investigate, a fact that Aristotle made pretty clear a few thousand years ago).
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. It is human, indeed. That does not make it agreeable to me.
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Well, you've got a point there. nt
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
14. Um... take up your argument with those who self identify as truthers. n/t
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
16. So you want discussion and not random abuse thrown around?
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I want discussion with people who aren't just here to disrupt. But you knew
that already.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. If you think there are disruptors here, you are supposed to alert the moderators.
If nothing seems to be done about the people who you think are disruptors, then perhaps you should reconsider the label.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. It's pretty clear who they are.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Then alert on them or shut the fuck up. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. My name is not Bobo. Stop mangling my name in an uncivil attack immediately. n/t
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. Really?
Who are they?
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. So random abuse is not disruption...
So then... Whats your problem with the term truther?

What you really want is to not have anyone here that does not buy the tinfoil. Good luck with that.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
24. No...it refers to something people believe rather than something they are
as such it's fundamentally different from terms referencing a person's ethnicity, gender or whatever. I rather agree that serious discussion of policy and consequences usually takes a back seat to daft arguments about trivia.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
25. Excellent OP
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 11:30 PM by omega minimo
And the same toxic tactics are used by lumping anything and everything to do with consciousness as "Woo." Same damn sick game.

Ah, one minor quibble:

"We know who profited and we know how the unbelievable has become commonplace since 9/11. Every day the right wing operatives are subverting language, invading schools..pre-K to the university..the media has been taken over by rich pirates."


You see, "the unbelievable has become commonplace" since Reagan's bogus "landslide." Reagan and Reaganism laid all the groundwork for the Biggest Mindfuck Ever Since God (inside joke, sorry, I know the haters in here are humor-challenged, but oh well). Including the American people accepting a stolen election and all the farcical theatrics that went into it... accepting the Dim Son as pResdent.... you know it all worked pretty good when there's a fucking BOOK WRITTEN WITH ALL THEIR PLANS AHEAD OF TIME and somehow people keep dozing on in their cozy cocoons...... :boring:

So yeah. If the unbelievable had not become commonplace long before Sept. 11, 2001, it never would have succeeded.

Thanks for the rant.

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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. You are correct about the hubris...
It started way before 9/11. This time the powers that be just followed the proven model I suppose.

A look at the subject lines of some of the threads here is sad. The fascists have got us falling all over ourselves in our egotism by a preoccupation with trying to prove the equivalent of what has come to resemble the existence of UFO's.

I apologize if anyone feels I am discounting their hard work and dedication to justice but the junk I see, even here, discredits the quest. The term "truther", as it is too often used, is clear evidence of the disrespect being tossed around by those too afraid to ask questions. Why perpetuate that?

I do not think all questions into the physics of the event are "junk". I just don't think it matters at this point. What good has it done? We'll be here years arguing about this. I feel rather we should hammer on the known associations between the Bush administration and those who are said to have been involved. Investigate the PEOPLE. Ask them questions under oath. Spend all this precious time hounding the press and the justice dept. to get this done.

Snarking on a message board is much easier though. I fall prey to it in my anger. No wonder this place is considered a "basement".



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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Picking up on your comment.
"You see, "the unbelievable has become commonplace" since Reagan's bogus "landslide."............."

I'm referring to the brainwashing.
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scrinmaster Donating Member (563 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
31. I mock everyone who believes in stupid shit.
Troofers, birthers, moon hoaxes, flat earthers, vaccine nuts, NWO/Illuminati tards, crystal healing, indigo children, chemtrails, Scientologists, creationists, etc. They're all batshit crazy, and I'll mock every one of them when they spout their BS without having any proof for it besides AM radio, shitty youtube videos, and blogs.
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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
32. Excellent post NoSheep. In the “dungeon" it’s like this: Whenever anyone who doubts
Edited on Thu Sep-10-09 07:22 PM by Mist
the official story and mentions the many anomalies and odd-looking stuff re: 9/11, a certain bunch jump all over the poster, asking if they have degrees in physics, engineering, etc. Anyone who doubts the official story is then told they have no right to question various aspects of the events that day, because they’re “not qualified.” It’s a way of intimidating others from joining in the discussion. When enough people are dancing around the physical aspects of the events of 9/11, there’s not a lot given to the motives of the perpetrators.

You’re right of course—most crimes are a matter of “whodunit,” not “howdunit.” There are plenty of connections in business/finance/politics to draw conclusions as to who really benefitted from the attacks on 9/11. It’s just that the physical anomalies of 9/11 are so very odd they irresistibly invite comment. Speaking for myself, the physical anomalies are what led me into questioning everything about 9/11, and I soon discovered the many cozy connections existing between various parties and companies. Then there’s that PNAC document. Throwing the PNAC on top of the connections was all I needed to draw conclusions.

For some reason, the supporters of the official story have taken the position that one has no right to question the official story if one can’t absolutely prove that everything didn’t happen the way the official story says it did. A surprising number of people apparently are intimidated by this argument, and therefore keep searching for more proof that the collapses were a result of something other than jets hitting the buildings, and that the Pentagon attack could not have been made by a commercial jet. Personally, I think anyone believing the official story needs to prove why they think that story is believable.

“If the unbelievable had not become commonplace long before Sept. 11, 2001, it never would have succeeded.” Sadly true, omega.

And, for what it’s worth, I refuse to be intimidated by being called a truther. There is absolutely nothing fucking wrong in looking for the truth.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. What about 9/11 conspiracy theory advocates who use the term "truther" to describe themselves? n/t
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. Sadists, haters and bullies LOVE to name-call, esp when they form a group & target specific people.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
36. sick fucking op. and what it reflects is clear.
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nemo137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
38. Were you born a truther?
HAve you suffered persistent, structural discrimination over generations because of your curiosity about structural design? Or are you simply looking to keep the sense of grievance so central to conspiracy theories alive?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
39. Nobody chooses to be black or hispanic or Italian or gay
Being a Truther involves choices.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
43. it's a very derogatory term
it makes fun of people looking for the truth - now how sick is that?
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