Have you lost or gained respect for Wesley Clark after learning...

[bitchkitty]

Poll question: Have you lost or gained respect for Wesley Clark after learning...

that he was paid to praise Bush at Republican fundraisers? Sure, he's not a Republican, but I would like for the people who are slamming Carol Mosely Braun tell me why this is acceptable, and why it's not acceptable for Carol to be paid as a consultant.

[slinkerwink]

1. I have lost respect for him because of that alone.

[bitchkitty]

20. Me too -

I had a very hard time with that when he first announced. I hope he's not the nominee, because I want to vote my conscience, not just vote for the lesser of two evils. If he does win, I'll vote against Bush (is anything more important than getting rid of Bush?), but it will signal an end to my love affair with politics.

[Tatiana]

2. D - "I don't care one way or the other." n/t

[Toucano]

3. Have you tried asking them

in the thread where they raised the issue?

[bitchkitty]

5. I did, but thought this

needed its own poll. Why not? It's not insulting to Clark, is it? I certainly didn't intend it to be.

[Toucano]

7. No, not insulting.

But I don't think it's related to Carol. Maybe tangentially.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with Carol being a paid consultant. That's why I haven't participated in those threads. I just thought if you wanted an answer from those who do have a problem with her being a paid consultant, you'd get a swifter answer in their thread.

I think Al Franken gets paid to speak to republicans too, BTW. I have no loss of respect for him because of it.

[joefree1]

23. Al called the Bushies a swell bunch of guys?

:shrug:

I'm taking his book back if he did.

[Toucano]

31. No, I don't think that's part of Al's work.

I simply intend to demonstrate that there are some who think being in the same room with a republican is a contamination. It isn't.

I believe a person can try to influence the other side, and you do that best by finding something to compliment them about. Then they'll listen to you. :)

Al tries to influence people in another way, which he's gifted at. Keep the book! Keep the book! LOL!

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joefree1]

9. Ouch

:+

NOW Salutes CMB's Historic Bid for President (warning postive stuff)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=125484
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/[e-mail]

Images from Dean Rocks the House of Blues, Hollywood
From wtmusic http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=919849
From Joefree1 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=921300

[wtmusic]

16. lol you had to put my link back up, didn't you?

:spank:

[bitchkitty]

74. I love that picture -

can I steal it? ;)

[Dookus]

6. You mean his perfunctory opening remarks for a speech

where he went on to slam the Bush foreign policy?

Nah, didn't bug me at all.

[bitchkitty]

10. No, his speeches at

fundraisers for the Bush cabal. He did not slam Bush at Bush fundraisers, sweetie, but that was a nice try.

[Dookus]

11. Well, sweetie....

you're mistaken.

[hellhathnofury]

12. Bringeth forth thy text to proveth thou's post.

ol'English is crap.

[bitchkitty]

24. Ain't gonna happeneth -

because it's not true that he slammed Bush at a Bush fundraiser.

Edited for clarity

[bitchkitty]

13. Well, darlin' -

why don't you show me a transcript of Clark slamming Bush during one of his paid appearances at Republican fundraisers?

[Dookus]

21. Here are the words IMMEDIATELY following his "praise"

We've got a NATO that's drifting right now. I don't know what's happened to it. But the situation in the Balkans, where we still got thousands of American troops, it's in trouble. It's going downhill on us as we're watching it. Our allies haven't quite picked up the load on that. But our allies say they're going to build a European security and defense program with a rival army to NATO. Well I, I think it's a political imperative that they do more for defense, but I think we have to understand that that linkage between the United States and Europe, that bond on security, that's in our interest. We let them carry the economic ball; we're doing the security ball. Look, in politics they told me - I don't know anything about politics now; I want to make that clear. But they told me - I read, do my reading in Time magazine and so forth. And they said in politics you always got to protect your base. Well for the United States, our base is Europe. We've got to be there, and we've got to be engaged in Europe. And that means we've got to take care of NATO, we've got to make sure the Europeans stay in it, and we've got to stay with the problem in the Balkans, even though we don't like it.

***************

Furthermore, this was given at the Pulaski County Republican Party Lincoln Day event. It was a non-partisan foreign policy speech. A few weeks later, he gave a similar speech at the (statewide) Arkansas Democratic Party annual dinner.

This speech was given in May 2001, four months before 9/11 and almost two years before the invasion of Iraq.

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=97

[bitchkitty]

26. Sorry -

that's not what I asked for, and not what you asserted. I want the transcript of Clark slamming Bush at a Republican fundraiser.

[Dookus]

28. Oh, I'm sorry...

I won't be able to find that, because to the very best of my knowledge, Clark has never spoken at a Bush fundraiser.

If you have any information to the contrary, please present it.

On edit: I never made any such assertion that clark did such a thing, either. I don't know how you got that idea.

On second edit: I was mistaken about the position of the praise in the text. They're not the opening remarks of the speech, but rather lead into the part of the speech discussing NATO I posted above.

[Toucano]

29. Dookus said

"where he went on to slam the Bush foreign policy?"

That is a critical statement of the Bush foreign policy.

[kayleybeth]

32. When did Clark appear at a Bush fundraiser?

I've never read that anywhere except in your post. Please provide a link.

[Dookus]

33. He never did...

but some people would rather believe falsehoods than take the time to learn the truth, as long as they don't have to face their own prejudices.

All they know is they read somewhere that he praised republicans, therefore must be bad. They don't know what he said AFTER the perfunctory praise. They believe he raised money for Bush, rather than the Pulaski County Republicans. And to be fair, he didn't even raise money for them - he spoke at one of their events.

But none of that matters - they'll still believe he was a top fundraiser for Bush.

[kayleybeth]

41. I know Dookus

That's why we're still waiting for a link. Nobody has a link because Wes Clark never appeared at a Bush fundraiser.

[slinkerwink]

48. so it's ok he raised money for the Pulaski County Republicans?

:shrug:

[Dookus]

51. He spoke at their event....

he wasn't soliciting funds.

He also spoke at a statewide Democratic party dinner a few weeks later.

He was making a living at the time giving speeches.

Yes, it's OK by me. I'm more concerned with what he does NOW. And what he's doing now is phenomenal - he's an incredibly intelligent, liberal, out-spoken candidate who's going after Bush and Rove at every opportunity.

on edit: as noted elsewhere, Al Franken proudly speaks at Republican events, too. Does that make him a closet neo-con?

[bitchkitty]

56. He was paid to speak for Republicans -

and the point of this thread is not that - it's that everyone's whining about CMB's endorsement of Dean and saying terrible things about her, and many of the same people just turn a blind eye to Clark's activities.

Look, I can get past his background if I have to (but God I hope I don't have to). What I will NEVER get past, under any circumstances, is sit idly by while a good Democrat is being slammed by a bunch of hypocrites.

[Dookus]

59. No...

everyone is NOT whining about CMB's endorsement of Dean. A few people are, in another thread. I'm not one of them.

I don't know why you insist on challenging people here instead of in THAT thread. This is the problem with tit-for-tat threads - the people you're arguing with aren't IN this thread.

[kayleybeth]

67. He was also paid to speak for Democrats

You wrote:

What I will NEVER get past, under any circumstances, is sit idly by while a good Democrat is being slammed by a bunch of hypocrites.

Funny you should say that, because increasing numbers of DUers obviously feel that CLARK is a good Democrat who is being slammed unfairly.

[bitchkitty]

73. Yes, he speaks for whomever pays him,

evidently. If there's nothing wrong with that, then why is it wrong for Carol Mosely Braun to accept a paid position with the Dean campaign?

[kayleybeth]

76. Wesley Clark was not a politician

when he was speaking for hire. He was a retired Army general who was trying to make a decent living after selflessly having dedicated 34+ years in service to his country, including getting wounded 4 times in Vietnam-- earning the purple heart, the bronze star, the silver star, and the presidential medal of freedom.

And I challenge you to find one single post where I said it was wrong for CMB to accept a paid position with the Dean campaign.

[bitchkitty]

52. Evidently -

it's okay for Wesley Clark to be paid by Republicans to speak at a fundraiser. But it's not okay for Carol Mosely Braun to take a position as consultant to the Dean campaign.

The hypocrisy in this place is stunning.

[MontecitoDem]

55. Again...

Nobody really cares if she was actually hired as a "consultant" - they are bothered that she traded an endorsement for cash and debt relief and worked to help Dean before withdrawing from the race. That is just wrong, especially to those who voted for her in DC.

[bitchkitty]

60. What I care about

is the fact that people are making slimy insinuations, if not outright then by doing things like putting "consultant" in quotes. She's better qualified to be a Democratic consultant than some candidates, and who cares if the timing of her endorsement benefitted Dean? That's what an endorsement is supposed to do. But I'm sure you already knew that.

[MontecitoDem]

63. I'm talking about

the timing of her dropping out - that's what bugs me.

Listen, I was a big CMB supporter. She has been my second candidate all along. But what I feel she did to DC voters is unfair. I don't mind her endorsing Dean either - endorsing is awesome. Taking cash in exchange for it isn't, imo.

We disagree. I'm moving on.
Have a goodnight.

[Dookus]

57. well, again....

you can keep going on about hypocrisy, but you'd be better off asking the people in CMB thread. I never condemned CMB for anything.

I will agree, however, that the level of hypocrisy is stunning in one respect - the people who demanded Clark release all his PRIVATE records while defending Dean's hiding of his PUBLIC records. THAT is stunning.

[bitchkitty]

70. The records are in the hands

of a judge who will decide what to release and what not to release. Otherwise, you people would find something wrong about the way he handled it - and would accuse him of holding some things back. You want him to release things that could hurt other people, you don't give a damn about them. All you care about is hurting Dean.

[Dookus]

80. No...

I know you'll never believe me, but I really *DO* care, and have cared for a very long time, about open, transparent government. My work on this issue goes back to the late 70's/early 80s when I did a lot of work with NYPIRG (chaired one of the largest campus chapters and served on the statewide Board of Directors), and served an internship with a sister organization.

This is not a new issue for me. Dean is wrong. Sealing public records is inexcusable. Redact the names and any other personally identifying information of constituents and release them.

To support anything less is to give Dick Cheney a pass on HIS energy meeting records. I'm not willing to do that just to protect a Democrat.

The records belong to the people of Vermont, not Howard Dean.

The judge excuse is just that - an excuse. Dean can, and should, release the records NOW.

[Toucano]

54. Do you think

he was the reason people paid to come to the dinner? Would they have had unsold tickets if he hadn't been a speaker?

I don't imagine it affected the money they raised either way. These events are almost always filled to capacity regardless of who's on the bill. Now that he's better known, I imagine he'd pull a crowd. I'm not sure if that was the case then.

[bitchkitty]

35. Sorry -

meant to write "praised Bush at a Republican fundraiser". I will edit.

[Dookus]

37. and the quote I provided was Clark

criticizing Bush's foreign policy at a Republican fundraiser. Granted, it was only Pulaski County's Republican Party's annual Lincoln Day Event (probably not a $5,000 per plate dinner) but nonetheless, that's about as close as you're going to get to Clark speaking at a republican fundraiser.

And, as I pointed out, he gave a speech to the Statewide Democratic Party annual dinner a few weeks later.

[kayleybeth]

50. Exactly!

It would be nice if Clark's detractors would bother to read this so-called "praise" in context. It's actually not praise at all.

[TorchTheWitch]

47. hmmm

I want the transcript of Clark slamming Bush at a Republican fundraiser.

So, you start a poll that is factually inaccurate so cannot even be voted on honestly about Clark's speaking at a GOP fundraiser and you have no link to provide to even ONE speech? And you go on to ASK for someone ELSE to provide a link for you? That's very... interesting.

The link to the transcript has been posted here MANY MANY times. I really don't see how you can have started this poll to begin with when it's seems fairly obvious that you have designed the poll based on an assumption about a speech Clark gave which you have never actually read yourself. I have lost count on how many times I've posted the link myself when this subject comes up, and several other people have as well. Yet, still it seems to have gone unread. How very... interesting.

Well, here it is yet AGAIN:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004065

[Tatiana]

64. Even his smears are full of positives.

"Our economy--we're using three times--we've got three times as much foreign investment as we're investing--capital flow--as we're putting out there. They're investing here because they believe in us. We're using energy like it's going out of style. We're using five to eight times as much energy per capita as people in the rest of the world, twice as much as even the Europeans. We're vulnerable to security threats--everything from terrorism to the developing missiles that are--we know rogue states are developing to aim at us.

And so I think we have to have a new strategy, and we have to have a consensus on the strategy, and we have to have a bipartisan consensus, and politics has to stop in America at the water's edge. We've got to reach out, and we've got to find those people in the world and share our values and beliefs--and we've got to reinforce them. We've got to bring them here and let them experience the kind of life that we have. They've got to get an education here. They've got to be able to send their children here. Then they've got to go home. And they've got to carry the burdens in their own lands, and to some extent we have to help them."

Kewl. Love this guy.

[bitchkitty]

75. That's slamming Bush?

Pretty weak if that's all you can come up with.

He should take lessons from Howard Dean, who was slamming Bush before it became "okay" to do so.

[Dookus]

81. Please decide what you want to fight about...

you keep changing the requirements.

The quote I posted was a direct criticism of the Bush foreign policy. I'm sorry it wasn't rude enough for your liking.

However, if you check any of his more recent comments about Bush and his team, you'll probably find them to your liking. He's been pretty relentless.

[bitchkitty]

77. I don't get you -

how does that portion of the speech negate this:

If you look around the world, there's a lot of work to be done. And I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Paul O'Neill - people I know very well - our president George W. Bush. We need them there, because we've got some tough challenges ahead in Europe.
Or this:

I tremendously admire, and I think we all should, the great work done by our commander-in-chief, our president, George Bush, and the men and women of the United States armed forces.


Here it is on video, same site: http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docid=97#

[Dookus]

82. ok...

you're free to think that what I posted wasn't an attack on Bush's foreign policy.

Most people would disagree with that assessment.

[TLM]

8. There's only two possiblities.... and I don't know which is worse.

Either...

1. Clark simply spun a line of bullshit about thinking Reagan was a great leader who saved the military and whom Clark tremendously loved and respected... because that's what the folks who were paying him to speak at the republican fundraiser wanted to hear.

2. He actually truly and honestly believes all that crap he said about Reagan and Bush I and Bush II.


As far as I'm concerned, either one is reason enough not to vote for him.

[oxymoron]

14. These tit for tat threads are so destructive and juvenile. (nt)

[bitchkitty]

15. Not -

what's destructive to the Democratic Party is a lot of people slamming Democrats for supporting a candidate they don't care for. That sucks, and it sucks HARD.

[oxymoron]

17. and how is this thread any different?

I see...complain about the problem then compound it. Very mature.

[bitchkitty]

19. Because if Carol taking $20,000,

which is a pittance IMO, for a consultant position with the Dean campaign is bad, then I want to know why this isn't bad too. It is not my intention to slam Wesley Clark. I just wonder why all these people are wandering around with their collective heads up their collective ass.

[oxymoron]

25. Now that's some incisive and meaningful debate.

Sheesh.

[mikehiggins]

84. It is not my intention to slam Wesley Clark?

Now there is a concept that should be the subject of a poll.

Hey. I'm just a disinterested guy myself. It's not like I've ever really supported Clark or wanted him to run so we'd have a chance of beating Bush or anything. Certainly not my intention to do what I could to get him the nomination.

No. Of course not.

[shance]

18. I like Clark AND your post is right on BK****

The double standard here and kudos to your keen observation.

In my opionion, it stems from a sexist slant, along with a distorting media who creates an biased illusion before Americans are allowed to see the full picture.

I also think there are hundreds of comparisons, like the fundraising double standard between Gore and Bush that would show how it is Democrats that are held under such ridiculous, laughable scrutiny. I think we could compare more Republican antics than Democratic. The media coverage on this Braun deal I think is ultimately designed to once again, divide us Dems. I love Clark and I think he would be a great candidate. I hope Dems wont allow this to divide them with other Dems. Thats their mission.

To Republicans this is would be celebrated and promoted. Perhaps this is one situation that they may have correct. Kudos to the Dean campaign. Theyve gotten themselves one heck of a statesman and leader on board!!

[tameszu]

22. In case anyone is wondering, this is a very good example

of a push poll.

[oxymoron]

27. Precisely. (nt)

[bitchkitty]

49. In case anyone is wondering, this is not an example

of a push poll. I submit that the poster doesn't know what he/she is talking about.

[Dookus]

53. It is in the sense...

that the question is predicated on an untruth. He wasn't being paid to "praise Bush". He was paid to give a non-partisan speech at a county Republican event. He did the same thing for Democrats a few weeks later.

[Toucano]

62. It isn't a fair poll

because you don't have objective options for people to choose.

The only thing coming from this thread is Clark, Clark, Clark.

There's very little CMB being discussed, which is why it might have been better for you to keep it in that other thread. Respectfully submitted opinion, of course. :hi:

[MontecitoDem]

30. Because CMB timed her withdrawal

in a manipulative way to support Dean's candidacy. While negotiating with Dean, she stayed in the DC primary in order to keep Sharpton from beating Dean. Plain and simple . . . she sold out. Nothing to do with "double-standard."

For you visual learners:

Dropout at the right time + endorse Dean = 20k plus campaign paid for

aka sellout

[bitchkitty]

39. So, you have the inside scoop?

You are privy to the inner workings of Ms. Braun's mind? I'm way impressed.

Let's see - she was supposed to wait until it would do her preferred candidate the least good. Well thanks for enlightening me. I did not know that etiquette states that if you're going to endorse someone, you have to wait until the WORST possible time.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Toucano]

45. oops!

Can't PM you yet, but you're not allowed to call candidates nicknames.

Please edit "Dr. V" to Dr. Dean or Gov. Dean or whatever.

On edit:

Oops! I repeated the name. Changed that.

[shance]

58. If Sharpton was an FBI informant, how relevant is his bought testimony?

I think Sharpton is great entertainment, but between Tawana and the FBI, I have a hard time seeing his words as legitimate.

[MontecitoDem]

61. Whatever you think of Sharpton,

he has conducted himself well in this primary. And my point was that Braun sold him out - split the black vote to help Dean.

So, since people here are throwing around the word hypocrite... can someone explain to me how Dean can say that "Iowa will always be first in the nation" and then run in the DC primary?

[MontecitoDem]

44. DC results:

Dean: 43%
Sharpton: 34%
Braun: 12%

nuff said

[tinanator]

87. properly astute

thats very good.

[TorchTheWitch]

34. the poll question is entirely inaccurate anyway

Have you lost or gained respect for Wesley Clark after learning...
that he was paid to praise Bush at Republican fundraisers?

Clark was NOT paid to praise Bush at a Republican fundraiser and never has been. He was a paid as a keynote speaker. A keynote speaker is paid to give a speech regarding whatever area of expertise they have, which is what Clark did. Keynote speakers are non-partisan.

For example (and I've said this many times but apparently, some folks either didn't notice or ignored it), a friend of mine is a retired police officer who gives keynote speeches on driver safety at Catholic and other religious acadamies or other groups... he is Jewish. The fact that he is Jewish has nothing at all to do with his keynote speech on driver safety. As is standard procedure in giving a keynote speech to any group, some general courteous comments about the group are given by the speaker, normally at the beginning of the speech, although in the body of the speech, the speaker may actually contradict those comments. My police officer friend before giving a speech before a particular group (say, a church) would go to that place and collect data on the driving safety of those that attend and use that information in the body of his speech. Although he would give standard courteous comments before the group, in the body of the speech he used the data he collected to show what crappy drivers they were, what they needed to do to improve on safety and the hazards that would result if they did not.

Clark did the same thing in his speech that is so often quoted here with cherry-picked comments... he gave the standard courteous comments, and went on to say how crappy the administration's foreign policy was, what they needed to do to straighten it out, and gave a warning as to what would happen if they didn't listen to him:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004065
<snip>
"Anyway, a lot of that is in my book. The title of the book is 'Waging Modern War'; I'm not going to go through all of that tonight. But I'll just make a small prediction: When this book comes out, it may be World War III. Because when you're there, when you're a general and you're caught up in these things, it's just like politics or business or anything else--you know a lot of people with different ideas. And I hope that we have learned something out of this experience in the Balkans."
<end snip>

If predicting World War III under Bush's watch is actually considered "praise", I'm the Queen of England. :eyes:

I'd really like to know who all was so concerned about this speech actually READ it. It's no wonder every time I see someone post those cherry-picked comments out of it in an attempt to try to smear Clark NEVER post a link to the speech.

Now, how about this totally inaccurate poll get scrubbed, everyone who voted go READ it, and then you can start a new poll that is factually accurate and anyone who votes on it must have read the speech so they can vote knowing the facts, hmmm?

[bitchkitty]

36. Nice analogy -

but this is not about religious differences. I still want to know, and not one person has explained it, how it's okay for Clark to take money to make speeches at Republican fundraisers, and why it's not okay for Carol Mosely Braun to be a paid political consultant.

I'm still waiting.

[Dookus]

40. well...

as was suggested above, you may want to ask in the thread pertaining to Carol MOsely-Braun. I certainly never said anything in that thread or this one condemning her. I like CMB.

[MontecitoDem]

42. Hmmm...

Think a number of us have said

it's not okay to trade an endorsement for $$

Saying she's a "consultant" makes it sound all sweet and nice. She was bought and paid for - trading the votes of her supporters for cash. How is that the same as Clark (not a politician at the time) speaking at fundraisers?

[bitchkitty]

65. Well, you just insulted the hell out of

her supporters. Don't you think they'll vote their own minds?

[MontecitoDem]

66. you're just trying to pick fights

isn't the point of her endorsement to get people who support her to vote for the person she picked?

it seems pointless trying to actually discuss this with you.

[bitchkitty]

72. So if she likes Dean for Prez,

she's supposed to endorse him and then tell her supporters what they already know, to support who they want?

I'm not picking fights - I didn't force you to come here, did I? If you can't justify your arguments, that's not my problem. I think it's pretty funny that you guys think you know, you just KNOW that there's something underhanded in her endorsement. It wouldn't matter if Donald Duck endorsed Dean, you'd find an ulterior motive for it.

[Piperay]

38. I have a lot of respect for him now

the same as I have always had, it's not more and it's not less...but you didn't give me that as an option. :argh:

[Bolo Boffin]

46. Isn't that poll missing a few options?

Like:

It doesn't matter one way or the other to me.

Or:

It wasn't the greatest thing in the world, but I haven't lost respect for him because of it.

Or even:

I respect that he admits to doing it.

Perhaps all the candidates would be better served if we would stop looking for the Mark of the Beast on them.

[NV1962]

68. I gained - about two pounds

Any Democrat who's man enough to openly state praise for Bush prior to 9/11, whether proffering said praise at Disneyworld, the flight deck of a carrier or a DNC fundraiser, is a real man in my book.

I'll have two more Twinkies, just to celebrate the afterglow.



Edited to perform an extractio stupiditatis.

[bitchkitty]

69. You and Zell Miller should get together. n/t

[NV1962]

71. I apologize, but I'm metrosexually impaired

I only do uniformed handsome men.

[DemBones DemBones]

78. All I care about is that CMB was effectively working for Dean while

purporting to be a sincere candidate, and one committed to staying in the race.

Money is not the issue. Her lack of ethics is.

[jpgpenn]

79. This poll is too generic and slanted in it's wording to vote on it

[mikehiggins]

83. Since Clark was not paid to praise bush at GOP fundraisers

it seems like a straw-man, false question to me.

Clark was paid to give talks on various topics to various audiences. If the venue was a GOP function, praise for the GOP leadership would be just as typical as praise of Harry Truman would be at a Missouri based event. There is a tendency to seek litmus tests of ideological purity found among zealots of each camp but such things resound very little among the general voting population.

As a grownup, and a Clark supporter from the first, I am sorry to see CMB withdraw from the race because I think she had an important message to bring to the table regarding gender and ethnicity. Now that she has declared for Dean she is in an opposing camp but that still does not diminish what she accomplished before fate and circumstances dictated her withdrawal.

As to her being paid to be a consultant for doing something she would most likely do for free, again, as a grownup, I have to say that's great work if you can get it. Sort of like me getting paid to eat chocolate cake. Sign me up.

When you are black and a woman in this country you don't have too much room for illusions in your life.




edited for spelling errors

[Zero Division]

85. Just woke up...hit the wrong response (never had it to lose)

Anyway, the vague praise of the Bush admin. (some of whom he's worked with in the past) in early 2001 is a bit disappointing but not that disturbing to me given Clark's history of detailed and intelligent criticisms of the Bush admin. If it had been praise coupled with more detailed reasons as to why he liked their policies, it certainly would have been a very negatives strike against him, but it wasn't anything like that. I also take into account that this is a guy who lived and worked in an environment that discouraged displays of political partisanship.

I've also read that the Republican fundraiser was not the original venue to which he had agreed (I'm not just making this up out of thin air, but I'm unsure about the GD Primary rules regarding links to websites that contain forbidden nicknames for candidates--with that description I bet you can guess the website to which I am referring. It does have a very good page detailing the rebuttals to many of the attacks that have been made against Clark.)

As for CMB, I've only just become aware of this issue. I do not know enough to make a solid judgement as to whether I would find it to be unethical behavior. It could very well be completely acceptable.

[jonnyblitz]

86. I actually don't find this as troubling as his cheerleading for SOA

THIS is very very disturbing to me.