About that war........

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

Erm, the war going on in Iraq?

I'm wondering something. I know bush et al don't give a flying shit about what the rest of the world thinks, and I know the UN recently declared the war illegal, but...

are there other international voices that could rise up and declare this war to be the immoral, unjust, illegal, unjustified nasty shame that it is?

I cannot understand why there isn't more of an international outcry.

I really can't. Unless I've missed it, which is entirely possible considering the fact that I live in the US, where we have precious little freedom of the press left.

Every person who voted for bush has the blood of innocents on their hands.

I don't for one moment believe bush won fair and square, more like down and dirty, but to the rest of the world's eyes, we have just rubber-stamped an immoral illegal war.

Where is the outcry?

[LynnTheDem]

1. HUH?????!!!

There is NOT ONE NATION that had a pro-war population.

NOT ONE.

Even the USA was OPPOSED until the "shock and awe" was being inflicted onto the Iraqis.

The largest world-wide anti-war protests in human history went on before the invasion.

There is NOT ON "coalition" member that has a pro-war population.

Not the UK.

Not Spain.

Not Australia.

Not Italy.

NOT ONE.

Oops I forgot... and Not Poland.

And that meant NOT ONE DAMN THING to bush.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

2. I know all that

and I agree. He called the Americans (that included my family) who marched against the war in Feb. of 2003 a "focus group" and said he doesn't listen to focus groups.

I guess I mean now, now that we know we are stuck with the bastard warmongering son of a bitch.

I just wondered if any country or international organizations alarm-radars went up about 20 notches and they started yelling even louder about the war.

I mean hell, we're STILL killing Iraqis. US servicemembers are experiencing an average of 100 attacks a DAY. WHY??????

Ug.

And if one more bushie tells me "but the Iraqis are FREE!" I'm going to suggest they get their asses on a plane, go over there and tell the Iraqis how free they are when it's not even safe to walk down the fucking street. How free they are with their children dead and their house a pile of rubble.

I didn't think the war in Iraq could POSSIBLY bother me more but now that I know that bastard is still in, amazingly, it does. It's gone to a whole new level.

[LynnTheDem]

5. There is NOTHING they can do...bush ignroed them before the invasion,

the entire world was and is AGAINST the invasion, the entire world denounced the invasion & occupation as illegal, immoral & unjust.

And bush ignored them & invaded anyways.

Why would anyone's alarm-radars go up now? There's no use screaming anything now when they did so 2 years ago and were ignored.

What they ARE doing is what they are NOT doing...they are NOT sending their troops to Iraq to help, and they will continue to NOT send their troops to help.

Canada just said N.O. again to bush last week. :)

And next month the UK is supposed to withdraw all their troops.

That leaves pretty much just us. And those 12 Moldovans.

[ydya]

9. You forgot Poland! You forgot Poland! They will have

a guy or two to make pierogies for the generals in Iraq till the end of 2005.

[LynnTheDem]

3. And speaking of bush's great "COALITION"...

Who were they REALLY?

For the invasion we had a WHOPPING number...

The USA.

The UK.

Australia.

And 200 troops from Poland.

That's IT.

Other little nations most Americans have never even heard of gave lip service to being "coalition" members. And NONE of them had a pro-war population.

Here's the incredible POWERHOUSES in bush's "coalition", like them 12 troops from Moldova.

http://www.ips-dc.org/COERCED.pdf

And the whopping "coalition" forces as of last spring;


United States: 138,000

United Kingdom: 8,000

Italy: 3,000

Poland: 2,400

Ukraine: 1,576

Netherlands: 1,400

Romania: 700

South Korea: 660

Denmark: 500

Japan: 500

Bulgaria: 480

El Salvador: 380

Australia: 300

Hungary: 300

Mongolia: 173

Azerbaijan: 151

Georgia: 150

Portugal: 120

Latvia: 116

Slovakia: 105

Czech Republic: 90

Lithuania: 90

Albania: 71

New Zealand: 60

Estonia: 45

Kingdom of Tonga: 44

Macedonia: 35

Kazakhstan: 27

Moldova: 12

Watch out for them TOngans...those spears are SHARP! ;)

[democratreformed]

4. How long before they decide that if we can't stop him, they will have to?

How long 'til one (or a "coalition") gets the bravery and strength to stop our march toward world global domination? We'll see what the people say about "At least he's keeping the fighting over there." then.

[barb162]

16. they can easily do it now with money, stop buying treasuries

and they will put us in the biggest damnn depression. China and Japan can probably do it on their own separately. But they may enjoy it more to watch us bankrupt ourselves slowly and they get more powerful each day.

[the_outsider]

17. Not yet I think ...

US market is still way too important for the growth of Chinese and Japanse export economy. A US recession is bad for them. But over a period of time, slowly but surely it will become less and less important and EU, Japan and BRIC (Brzil, Russia, China, India) will grow faster than US and trade more with each other bypassing USA. US will just provide military services to the rest of the world and run up huge trade and budget deficits. A time will come when the economies of ALL countries will be tied to each other and noone will be able to afford a war without self-destructing. US military services will no longer be needed then. That will be the time when they dump US treasuries and bonds. Not till then..

[barb162]

21. agree with your points. Only thing stopping them from not

buying treasuries is it will put us in a depression and if we stop buying their stuff, they lose too. But I think this all may happen sooner than later as our deficits grow ever bigger. I think these other countries can just sit back (enjoy) and watch us self-destruct over our drunken-sailor spending on Iraq and other things while they go about making their economies grow stronger.

[welshTerrier2]

6. where is the outcry??

you know, before the war began I attended a huge anti-war demonstration in Boston ... and there were other demonstrations all over the country ... and with very few exceptions, Democratic leaders stayed away from them ...

that's just plain wrong !!! but my point isn't to look backwards ... my point is to look at the inevitable next round of demonstrations that should be coming within the next few weeks after bush begins his genocide mission in Falujah ...

will Kerry support this mission? will he "wish the troops well" and then stand with bush? where the hell are the democrats at on this issue? this is not about "putting the country ahead of politics" ... this is about leadership ... who will stand to represent us ... we can take to the streets and speak out ... but without our national leaders joining us, we send a fairly weak message at best ... and we send a message that only will receive fleeting press coverage ...

the outcry you seek is coming ... let those who seek our support support us !!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

7. Yeah I guess that's part of my question too

it has become obvious to all but the most fanatical kool aid drinker that this war is a nasty sham and a total frigging black mark on us. It was wrong from the get-go and somehow "wrong" isn't even strong enough.

So I want to see the entire Dem party, including the top echelon start making a HELL OF A LOT OF NOISE about this war.

WHY ARE WE STILL DYING AND KILLING THERE?

[LynnTheDem]

8. The most MASSIVE outcry in human history didn't work then

And it ain't gonna work now. There is nothing the world can do or say; bush is NOT GOING TO LISTEN to anyone. He even ignored the US majority opposition.

But now it's just US & UK troops with a handful of others, and the UK pulls out next month.

And Iraq is daily getting worse.

Why should the rest of the world say a word? The US is losing in Iraq; the world is just waiting for the US to fully realize this.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

10. AAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH

#%&*($#(&#(@)%()(%$#)%*)(%^$#%&@)%

IT'S SO FUCKING FRUSTRATING!!!!!!!!!!

Know what I mean?

I hear ya, you're right, I'm just so damn frustrated.

He's a #$*%($#* and he's going to rot in hell. What a "Christian." Wonder if he's seen a single picture of a dead Iraqi child?

[welshTerrier2]

11. this importance of protests

if your point is that bush is going to do whatever the hell he wants to do, i agree ... protests will not stop him ...

but if your point is that we shouldn't protest and build a movement and fight as hard as we can in opposition to this war insanity, then i disagree ... i think it can be the spark we need to draw more and more "activists" off their asses ... there is far more to be "won" by protesting the war than just stopping the war ...

and i'll add this: i remember very clearly the endless passion Vietnam war protesters held for George McGovern ... yes, i'm well aware how badly he lost ... but the greater point was there was a sense of belonging to the democratic party that many of us have not had until this last election ...

i would be deeply moved to have all Democratic leaders standing with us in the streets ... we only have unity when the "underground" is fused with the establishment and vice versa ... if our leaders do not share our values, why should we support them?

and one last point: i think it's important to send a message to the rest of the world that many in the U.S. oppose this war ... I don't want this war carried out in my name and I refuse to be silenced ... no, it may not change what happens but it's still important to fight back and to speak out ...

added on edit: btw, while i agreed that bush will have his way whether there are protests or not, this would not be the case if the size of the protests were much larger ... imagine 55 million (those who voted for Kerry) Americans taking to the streets ... if people cared enough that we're slaughtering Iraqis in their names, we could shut down this country ... it's not going to happen and that's too bad ... i would give anything to see that kind of passion ... most of us are just too damned lazy to get involved ...

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

12. I don't want to hear any Republicans complain about how things are going

in Iraq.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

13. Exactly

they wanted it, they got it, they rubber stamped it with their vote, they get to deal with it.

ALL of it.

[the_outsider]

14. racism, oil need, unipolar world

People all over the world are against this war. They tried their best and protested, but they are powerless and are not listened to by their national governments. The best opportunity to stop the war was to win the election and then pressurize Kerry. That's why the whole world was so anxiously looking forward to the election. I have been reading a lot of UK, Indian and middle east press for a long time. I have never seen such a high level of international interest in US presidential election before and the disappointment was also huge.

UN is spineless. There is no other country who dares to stop US. The best they would do is not to provide troops, but they will do nothing to stop US pro-actively. International politics and economics are brutal. Middle east is only relevant to the rest of the world as a supplier of oil. Other than that no one gives a shit about them. US has always taken the responsibility of managing middle east on behalf of the oil-driven economy and that management always included military forces. For providing that service, US oil companies make a huge chuck of profits and Americans get oil at a cheaper rate than the rest of the world.

Since when Europeans and Americans cared a whole lot about Blacks, Browns and Yellows dying? India and China need oil more than the western economies - they have tight trade and economic relations with USA. They cannot protest too loudly. The situation is so unstable now no one will take responsibility of the mess US has created.

Sorry, I do not see an easy way out of this. It's frustrating and depressing. Only consolation is I have marched twice for 10 miles with my 2 year old daughter. What else can we do?

[kentuck]

15. You're right, Moonbeam_

Bush has a "mandate" to kill whomever he wants anytime he wants.....He got the majority of the morals and values votes...Don't forget...God is on our side....

[joanne]

18. It just couldnt be more embarrassing

The Daily Mirror in the UK had a screaming headline asking how could 59 million Americans be so stupid?

Good question.

Apparently the deaths and suffering of thousands of Iraqis doesnt mean much to millions of people. Of course... how many of those Chimpy voters really have a CLUE what is going on?

They were more concerned with other "values".

Nov 2 was a very dark day.

It isnt going to get any better any time soon.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

19. They were more concerned about a clump of cells

called an embryo, they were more concerned about what two adults do in the privacy of their home, than they were concerned about our immoral killing of thousands in a country that did nothing to us.

Morals?

I think not.

[welshTerrier2]

20. they are "pro life"

well, except for stuff like senseless war ... and, oh yeah, the death penalty ... what a bunch of fucking biblical hypocrites ...

they're pro life as long as they get to choose who lives and who dies ...