Why did Kerry lose?

[Guaranteed]

Poll question: Why did Kerry lose?

There are lots of different theories on this, of course, but I'm going to offer up my ideas here.

Feel free to make your own known, but I'm not doing the "he didn't lose" thing.

[madison2000]

1. Election fraud

[sellitman]

4. Ditto

Election Fraud! :mad:

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[genius]

62. He didn't lose. He won and then conceded and backed Bush.

[LiberalCat]

83. I agree.

Election fraud, followed by Kerry's too quick concession.

[happyjack27]

88. Assuming he _did_ lose.

Maybe it's so hard to explain his loss precisely because it didn't really happen.

[Darryl Cramer]

2. I voted for the flip-flop...

but on 2nd thought, he really suffered from lack of a clear message. I always got the sense that he was weighing his words very carefully based on the lastest focus group study or poll.

[Stand and Fight]

20. Lack of a clear message?

Did you not watch the debates? Did you not listen to his speeches? Did you not visit his website that actually gave DETAILED PLANS for his vision of bringing hope back to America? Give me a frickin' break! His message was consistent -- you just fell for the mainstream media crap that his message was not clear, or that he was a flip-flopper. In short, you took the jackass Republican talking points to heart.

[flaminbats]

63. detailed plans don't equal a clear message..

he had a great healthcare plan, but failed in linking this to the theme of healthcare for every American. He had a great plan to pull us out of Iraq, but failed to attack Bush for leaving us vulnerable on 9/11. Finally Kerry became the first challenger defeated by an incumbent to be elected without the popular vote. He failed to make the abolishment of the Electoral College into a central campaign issue, and by doing so surrendered the Democrats most powerful issue..the need for a democratically elected President.

[Stand and Fight]

3. Pssst...

I need not even say what I and a great many others feel is the "something else" you fail to list in your poll... But for the sake of clarification, I am talking about election fraud. There is not a single doubt in my mind that the vote was padded nation-wide and keenly so in key battleground states like Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.

[Guaranteed]

6. Yes, but let's just say, for the sake of argument-

what if Kerry really HAD lost? Why would he have lost?

[Stand and Fight]

16. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, eh?

I don't care to really focus on "what-if" statements when it is so obvious that he won and only lost because the votes were stolen, suppressed, and hundreds of thousands were disenfranchised. Kerry did not lose this election, and I will go to my death convinced of this by the mountain of evidence I have both seen and read. There is no logic in supposing this or that when I know the answer to your question.

You asked a question and listed "something else" as to why he lost. I have given my answer and won't change it "for the sake of argument" when there is no argument to be had. Anyone who believes that Kerry lost because of the reasons you listed, had better pay attention to the exit polls, Bush's approval rating, and the polls that have recently come out -- all in the favor of the other guy, John Forbes Kerry.

[AmerDem]

17. if if if

if grandma had balls she'd be grandpa!

[Guaranteed]

18. See post #14. nt

[mzmolly]

5. Smear vets if the election was legit.

:(

[zulchzulu]

7. Corp-whore-ate media suffocation of his message and being Bush shills

The "flip-flop" garbage, the lies that were never called on by the SFBFT and the marionettes cheerleading for Chimpy on almost ALL the media channels sure made not only Kerry's candidacy but ANYONE who would have run almost impossible to get their message out.

Actually, Kerry DID win...but we will never know the truth.

[Catherine Vincent]

8. He didn't lose. It was the machines.

[Ironpost]

9. No doubt, Election Fraud

Please explain to me the reason this isn't so.

[Guaranteed]

14. How about this- why didn't he win the popular vote?

Or do you think that 3.5 million votes were stolen?

[Maine-i-acs]

23. Point shaving all around gets you a Mandate

heavy Padding in TX
Near-steal in NH
Outright stealing of NM, OH, FL and maybe CO, NV ...

[Ironpost]

24. I believe 3.5 million votes were stolen,

lies, half truths, deceptions, I could go on and on. It only takes a few select precincts to sway an election of this magnitude.

[dolstein]

42. Then you'll believe anything. Wanna buy a bridge?

NT

[Stand and Fight]

51. Yeah..

Nothing like responding with a sound and well-thought out argument. Let's attack the messenger rather than their message. If you are so convinced it could not be done, then do enlighten those of us -- like myself and others -- who have listed how it was in fact done.

[Stand and Fight]

52. Dupe!

Dupity dupe dupe...

:crazy:

[GOPBasher]

80. dolstein... how are you so sure it wasn't?

No one can audit these voting machines. The programmers can do whatever they want, and there's no way to verify that the votes are counted properly. I want to know, how are you so sure that the exit polls were wrong and the votes were counted properly on these computers?

[Stand and Fight]

28. Sigh...

Bush's 3.3 million vote lead is attributed to several factors;

1. Voter suppression in key battleground states. Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, New Mexico, Nevada -- just to name a few.
2. Vote manipulation through the use of election tabulators. Not just Diebold, ES&S or Triad either...
3. Voter registration purges in heavily Democratic areas... This was reported to have happened in Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, and -- BINGO! -- Ohio.
4. A massive disinformation campaign in minority areas. People being told they would vote the 3rd of November, that they'd be arrested for parking tickets if they went to the polls... Just a few.
5. Fewer voting machines in traditionally Democratic areas. Liberal colleges, institutions, minority neighborhoods...
6. Padding of the votes across the U.S. Especially in secure Bush states like Oklahoma, Georgia, Mississippi, etc... Hell, in Ohio alone there are 11,367 precincts alone and across the United States it would be no hard task to add votes here and there.


Anyone else have more to add to my list?
I AM SURE I DIDN'T LIST ALL REASONS.
Come on folks.

[AmerDem]

41. geeze

If they are capable of totally rigging states like Florida and Ohio why is it so hard to understand that nationwide a total of 3.5 fraudulent votes are accrued?

Honestly, is this so far fetched to you? Have you read anything and I mean anything regarding e-voting and the means they use to tabulate? I am truly stunned by the very few her at DU that dismiss election fraud.

[Stand and Fight]

53. Hey, you ain't the only one buddy...

I'm scratching my head over here too and I came into this issue completely skeptical even after thinking 2000 was not stolen!

[Guaranteed]

55. I don't dismiss it.

3.5 million votes is kind of hard to swallow, though, especially without more direct evidence.

[SpongeBob]

76. Absolutely they were stolen. What's the problem there?

Especially with those touchscreen machines. Is there a limit to how many votes can be shifted from one candidate to another, machines set to minus-whatever for Kerry, etc? I also was taken in by this ridiculous theory that if we were to vote in huge numbers against Bush it would somehow be harder for them to steal it. Well the exit polls proved this theory false, it was KERRY who really won big, but once again it was stolen. The Republicana will continue to improve on their tactics for stealing elections. If nothing is done to stop them, we're finished, no more elctions, period.

[Leilani]

10. A terrible campaign

And when he didn't or wouldn't stand up to defend himself against the smears, that was the end.

[AmerDem]

11. where's election fraud?

?

[Democrat Dragon]

12. Election Fraud

and Kenneth Blackwell rigging the re-count and hiding the smoking gun, Kerry not getting public support, and no real whistleblowers(Clint Curtis was only saying what happened to him four years ago).

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. Two reaons

One WE SHOULD HAVE GONE TO THE SOUTH...we COULD have been more competitive or made THEM sweat more like the shit they pulled in Hawaii.

He should have been more proactive on Swiftboaters and they SHOULD HAVE made a commercial connecting O'Neill to Nixon...

[Guaranteed]

26. I agree with the O'Neill thing- most people didn't realize the

two mens' history, and that was extremely important.

[dolstein]

47. Please stop kidding yourself about the South

There is no way that Kerry could have won in the South.

Just look at Florida. Kerry spent tons of money and he and Edwards constantly campaigned there and he still lost by a significant margin. If Kerry couldn't carry Florida, which is by far the most competitive of the Southern states, how on earth was he going to carry states like Arkansas and Tennessee, much less Georgia and North Carolina?

[seito]

15. He didn't n/t

[leesa]

19. Election fraud. He won.

[cestpaspossible]

21. The media filter

the only time people saw Kerry without the filter was the debates...

[Guaranteed]

22. Which he won (although the media filtered afterward).

I like your answer.

But could he have found a way to cut through the media filter?

[pinto]

25. Viet Nam, an aversion at revisiting a failed war in the midst of another.

I think it was easier for folks to vote for a sitting Commander in Chief who had nothing to do with Viet Nam than vote for Kerry. Odd take, I know, but life is surely strange.

I wonder what Kerry's take is on the whole scenario...

and, I know there's lots more, as in local organizing, button issue turn-out and all, but this struck me.

[Guaranteed]

27. Good point. Kerry apparently

doesn't think it was stolen. I wonder what he would say.

[Stand and Fight]

31. How do you know what he thinks?

Sounds to me like you THINK he doesn't think it was stolen. I prefer to THINK that he KNOWS it was stolen, but without HARD evidence -- excluding prima facie evidence -- this country would be torn apart over the issue. I believe Kerry knows it was stolen, but because he had 17,000 lawyers rather than an equal amounts of computer specialist, election specialist, voters' rights advocates, and criminal attorneys... Well, need I say more. Like I said though, I believe he knows, but the hard part is how the hell can he prove it with the media against him? I mean, they convicted a guy -- Peterson -- in California based on evidence that doesn't rise to the same level as the evidence we've gathered.

:eyes:

[Guaranteed]

48. I'm pretty sure that he's said that Bush won "fair and square." nt

[Stand and Fight]

50. Okay, I'll bite.

Provide us with a link please.

[pinto]

36. I don't know what Kerry thinks....n/t

[HomerRamone]

29. He didn't lose

[Liberty Belle]

30. Kerry won. The machines flipped the vote.

[BillZBubb]

32. Ran like a wimp. Didn't fight. Ignored attacks.

It was Dukakis deja vu.

There is a decisive chunk of the electorate that just won't support someone who doesn't defend himself vigorously and who won't attack his opponent. They equate this with a failure of leadership. After all "if a guy won't stand up for himself, why should I suppose he would stand up for the country?" They don't pay attention to specific policy positions or issues.

That's why the left continues to lose against imbeciles and incompetents like Dumbya.

[JI7]

33. they didn't bring up Kerry's record enough

they needed to bring up his record as a prosecutor and in the Senate. as a prosecutor he went after rapists, the mob, and helped set up support centers for women who are raped.

they needed to bring up his record in the Senate such as the investigations he led. and the youth programs he helped set up in mostly poor areas. and of course his great record on the environment.

this would have helped in the theme he wanted to push with bringing up his military service. there was nothing wrong with bringing up his military service, but adding the things i mentioned would have shown people that he has always fought for the people. it would have helped fought off the crap that the vietnam service was the only thing he had or that he did nothing in the senate. while at the same time allowing people to see he did good things there.

i know they did bring all of these things at various points in the campaign, but i mean they needed to make ads out of it so the ones who don't read would hear about it.

they should also have spend money in states they knew for sure we would win and lose. this would have cut or exceeded the Chimp's popular vote margin. although i don't totally blame them for this since we didn't know how much money would be raised.

the republicans will always attack and it's important we don't get caught up in spending all the time just reacting to it. but with the things i mention above it would have helped promote the candidate while weakening many of the right wing attacks without having to respond to them directly.

[For PaisAn]

34. Election Fraud

It's impossible to win a rigged "election".

[Maat]

37. I, for one, was amazed at the deliberate ignorance...

of my neighbors - deliberate and willful ignorance. It was if their brains had been absorbed by the Borg - or like I was talking to Stepford people. It was like they wanted to return to some idealized version of the 1950's. The working women felt guilt, and maybe if we voted for Bush, Husband would make a living wage and the wife could stay home, and everyone would pay no taxes, and there would be no drug abuse, and every child would be born into a home with loving married parents and ... blah blah blah. I could present them with fact after fact after fact ... nothing.

And I live in a red pocket in the blue state of California (near Temecula/Murrieta). They literally do not care about any else's wants or needs besides their own - this fantasy of theirs.

It was very weird. It was if I was surrounded by people who had 'drank the kool-aid.'

Our school system has failed Americans somehow. Or maybe its the Rethuglican Noise machine.

[For PaisAn]

49. Willful and deliberate ignorance - I love it

That is the perfect description. I haven't a shred of patience left for these people, just want to tell them to shut the F' up. Can't muster myself to have a civil conversation with them. It's just a waste of time and energy. They'll have to endure some more painful reality before they wake up. It's a damn shame everyone else has to suffer until then. In the meantime why keep hopelessly banging my head against a wall?

The comparison to the Borg is quite fitting.

[Stand and Fight]

56. I look at my Republican co-workers and...

half of the time I want to scream at them, "Oh you are going to be sorry you silly stupid bastards! It may take some time for you to reap what you've sown, but you are going to be very sorry idiots!"
Of course, I never say this, but my mind and heart are dripping with the words all day.

[For PaisAn]

57. I'm fortunate, no Republican co-workers

I refuse to associate with repugnant people anymore.
Just my sister's boyfriend and now he doesn't like Bush either. It's odd though cause he'll still defend Bush if we pick on Bush too much. He'll start making the Clinton comparisons. That's when I leave the room so as not to tell him to shut the F' up.

You could always say to your co-workers "Gee, I thought you were a lot smarter than that"

How would they respond? I suppose they could say "No, no I'm not"

Ha, ha.
:evilgrin:

[Stand and Fight]

60. LOL..

Shortly before the election I did just that! It's somewhat hard to believe that intelligent people could support this guy despite his having lied so many times. Kind of makes me wonder if they're really not all that intelligent after all!

[robbedvoter]

35. Kerry won. Then he flip flopped.

[dolstein]

40. Will the people who are insisting that Kerry didn't lose cut the crap?

Seriously folks, this is getting embarassing.

[dolstein]

38. I'll give you a few reasons

1. He was a northeastern liberal. This put nearly the entire South out of reach.

2. His activities as a Vietnam war protestor. At the very least, it offset any benefit he might have hoped to gain from his military service.

3. He was Catholic. It is never a good thing to have people urging the Pope to excommunicate a presidential candidate. Kerry's strong pro-choice record wouldn't have hurt him nearly as much if he weren't a Catholic.

4. Voting against the $87 billion authorization for funding the Iraq war. Perhaps it was good for the primaries, but it proved costly in the general election.

5. The lack of a clear message. Having a good message may not be necessary to win, but it certainly helps. Some voters who didn't like Bush's job performance found it difficult to vote for Kerry because the just didn't know what he wanted to do as president.

[Califooyah Operative]

39. Well.

republican misinformation campagin, voter suppression, voter disinfranchisement, failing to respond to attacks quick enough, bush was a war time president and had a suprising number of people's trust ater 9/11, Karl roves get out the vote strategy got millions of new voters out, and was organized like nothin ever before. there's probably a bunch more reasons.

[Davis_X_Machina]

43. Kerry couldn't point to a pile of dead Moslems...

...and say "See! I did that for you!". Junta Boy could, and did -- over and over.

The only chance Kerry had to win the election was to announce just before the final debate: "Tomorrow, John Edwards and I are filling up a Ryder truck with ammonium nitrate and a few other things, and we're gonna get us an Islamic center, or a mosque. Members of the media are welcome to come along. But don't stand too close, if you know what I mean, wink, wink."

[DaveinMD]

44. Bob Shrum

[moggie12]

54. Ditto on Bob Shrum n/t

[GiovanniC]

45. He Fought On The Republicans' Terms

You don't win that way.

Don't run from what you are, and don't let the Republicans be the ones to tell Americans who you are.

[KTM]

46. Something else

Soft. Mealy-mouthed. Concilliatory.

The entire campaig was too afraid of being painted as "negative," and failed to mount an effective campaign against the distortions from the right. They failed to take Bush to task for his horrid record, his countless flip-flops, his frequent slight-of-hand wherein he promised one thing and did anther. They failed to be brave, to step up and speak the truth to the American people, and allowed Bush to define both sides. So many things they could have nailed him on, and did not, for fear of the lables that would come with it.

[agincourt]

58. He could've won against a rival political party,

but he couldn't win against a religious cult leader. Kerry had to prove himself over and over to his constituency, Bush could kill all the first born sons, and his followers would still lick his sissy cowboy boots. The right-wing has invested heavily in churches, media, and law enforcement: they are reaping the harvest today. Bush had to convince only 25% of his votes with the media whores like Tim Russert. The other 75% came from pod people, just reaping the harvest was all that was needed.

[FrenchieCat]

59. A variety of reasons....

Voter fraud meant he had to win overwhelmingly in order to beat the fraud (GW Pun).....But since John Kerry was afraid of alienating voters and the media...instead he put his finger to the wind to try to figure out what to do. he never took a chance until too late when he allowed some different players to help guide his finger. It was too little too late.....the RNC and their media stooges had done too much damage for too long.

In the end Kerry could have redeemed himself somewhat by fighting for Ballot reform but chose to appear in the Middle East instead....again...too afraid to take a risk in taking a real stand for what was important "at the time".

Timing is everything...and John Kerry has yet to learn that lesson.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guaranteed]

66. You should stop listening to Rush Limbaugh- you're getting your talking

points mixed up.

While John Edwards was a personal injury lawyer, Kerry wasn't- he was a PROSECUTOR. That's right- he put murderers and rapists in jail.

Further, John Edwards fought against the corporations who refused to duely compensate those who were injured by their negligence. Sorry, buddy, but when someone hurts someone else, in particular when a little girl has her bowels ripped out by a defective pool intake, the law says that someone needs to pay. Just like terrorists have to pay.

You're also distorting what he said about the war on terror, entirely. What he said is that he wants to get our country back to a place where terrorism isn't a worry on the minds of Americans. Funny how I can't even imagine Bush saying something that sensible.

And there IS a Heinz USA. Look it up on Snopes. Your shit is just ridiculous.

Independent, my ass. Lay off the Fox Propaganda.

[KittyWampus]

81. Funny YOU Are The One Doing A Poll Using The GOP Talking Point

'flip-flop'.

[Guaranteed]

87. Funny YOU don't give a shit that Kerry voted to authorize Bush

to invade Iraq.

[TSIAS]

65. All of the above

Even more importantly, Democrats were working with an electoral map that really constrained us. We basically needed to win every one of the battleground states in order to get 270. It's an accomplishment IMO that Kerry was able to get within 100,000 Ohio votes of winning the election.

Of those listed, Swift Boats was the killer. I remember Kerry was surging right after the DNC and before the SBV. They killed whatever momentum he had. When Kerry finally did get his mojo back, he was too far behind to win.

[marcologico]

67. Well put, agree. Great candidate, shaky campaign, many enemies.

Bushco controls everything. Churches, congress, stacked courts, rigged elections, media goons, you name it. Kerry had Kerry and that was nearly enough. I'm hoping he runs like hell for the next four years and takes it. I think he can.

[yurbud]

68. not fraud OR, fraud AND

The Bushies did crank up the election fraud, but I thought Kerry could have been more direct and blunt in the debates. He was in many of his campaign speeches, but of course the media didn't spend much time on issues.

[NVMojo]

69. his campaign team sure didn't have a freaking clue on the issues

in the west, the power of the extraction-based corporations. Kerry was almost set up by his own people.

[njdemocrat106]

70. Swift Boat Vets, sadly

Kerry needed to combat those liars immediately. I also think if James Carville was directly involved in the campaign, he (and we) would have done a lot better.

[Buck_Fush]

71. Kerry didn't lose, he won. But he dared not take his win, perhaps

they threatened his family, or perhaps throwing the fight was the plan all along, lay down and play dead in the 7th round, that's what he did, our winner.

[hollowdweller]

72. Gun Control or Slow responding to Swiftboats or He still would have voted

for war. I think if any 1 of these 3 would have been taken off the table he would have had the margin to win.

[SpongeBob]

73. I guess 60% disagree with you, Kerry DIDN'T lose

It was STOLEN AGAIN. Denying this won't help anybody. The will of the people, Kerry was the choice (or at least Bush was not the choice). If nothing is done about the Republican fraud, there will not be another election. So YOU can theorize all you want, right now democracy is dead.

[Guaranteed]

74. I'm not saying either way, because I don't KNOW.

I'm just not accepting an answer that is meant to avoid addressing the very real problems with the Kerry campaign. And I saw it coming from a mile away.

George W. Bush is most likely the worst president we've ever had. I want to know why the man we ran against him couldn't beat him- at least in the popular vote.

That is all.

In any case, not all of those "other" responses are necessarily "Kerry won."

[Mend]

75. If you can't punch a puke, who can you punch?

He didn't really get down and dirty with bushit and gave the undecideds the impression that he was not a fighter and thus wouldn't win the so-called war on terrorism.

[mtnsnake]

77. Pathetic campaign

Maybe there was voter fraud, maybe there wasn't. It's not fact, one way or the other.

What IS a fact is that Kerry, his advisors, and his campaign managers ran one of the poorest campaigns possible. Outside of one excellent debate and one decent one, the campaign was a total bust....a bust filled with inexplicable hesitations and gross mistakes. In retrospect it becomes even more embarrassing than it was while it was going on.

[Bampa]

78. Did not loose - He won!

Theft again!

[Catchawave]

79. Something else: The Media

Sloppy and biased reporting, etc.

[opihimoimoi]

82. Bush Co Lied, Cheated, and stole the damn thing, Kerry is a MAN

Bush is a Pet Rock

[The Flaming Red Head]

84. Well, I'm not doing the "He didn't win thing."

because he did win.

[TheDonkey]

85. Dumbfuck Americans, Right wing religious wackos

only 100K votes in Ohio. Most Americans don't know or care about what's going on and still voted for * because he's already there. Incumbancy has a lot of power even when you are a miserable failure.

[seimmud]

86. Kerry is...

A) Ugly - Admit it, he aint a good looking guy
B) No clear message - He just tried to get by using the Anti-Bush theme
C) Flip Flopper - Clear his votes were political and not from his heart
D) Crazy wife - She couldn't shut up
E) Hollywood - Im a middle america guy, he should have ignored Hollywood, they dont represent middle America who decide elections
D) Swift Vets - His response was slow
E) Ugly - Again, Cmon, the guy looked like lurch and superficial people vote too

[bluedog]

89. Slow on the Draw

he didn't defend himself against any charges........he let the bush team rub his nose in all the stories they found or made up and kerry just let them talk and walk all over him......to me that no spine.....we will never win the WH back unless we get a person with some convictions and issues to solidly stand behind them.

if he would have trashed bush for his guard record and his terrible term and mainly the "lying" to start this war...many people would have seen bush for what he really is.........a spoiled little f'ing liar!