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rainbow4321 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:03 PM
Original message
Video: Teacher pulling chair from student refusing to stand for anthem
http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/142004/index.php


A high school teacher in Brick, NJ pulled a chair from under a student after the student refused to stand for the national anthem. The school suspended one student for filming the incident, but has yet to punish the teacher.

A student named Jay (who wants his last name to be withheld) at Brick Township High School in New Jersey, had his chair pulled out from under him after he refused to stand for the national anthem. The class started out that morning with Mantel yelling "I don't want to hear a sound! Not a sound! Morning exercises will come on, you will stand, you will stand quietly, you will pay attention! Any Questions!?...Now stand up and keep your mouths shut!" Students stood up as the national anthem began playing.

Jay said that he didn't have any political reasons for his refusal to stand but that he wanted to sit because he feels it is his right to do so and that right was being threatened by Mantel. Jay said that he thought Mantel might tell him to stand, but he never expected to be physically forced to do so.

"The teacher and school principals wanted him (Mantel) to press charges against us...they tried to blame it on us like it was premeditated, like we did it just to get him on tape, which is false. We knew he was gonna go nuts because he frequently used to" said Corey. Jay's other classmate Steve got suspended for 10 days for filming the incident. The school told Corey that it "violated the teacher's constitutional rights" for them to film the teacher without his permission
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. That last line is total nonsense.
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Not_Giving_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. OK, wait a minute...
The teachers constitutional rights were violated because he was videotaped without his permission....what about the student's right to sit the fuck down?
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. A bunch of different things happening here.....
1) the student SHOULD STAND. If you doesn't want to recite that's his right, BUT there is a difference b/t being right and being rude...I am a BUJEW and I would stand in any church I walked into. I would stand when ANY national anthem is played.....as for the'physical abuse' bonk....he didn't do anything wrong if he didn't touch the kid......as for the teachers rights not to be filmed?? That is probably covered by state law.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. "he didn't do anything wrong if he didn't touch the kid"
By that logic, someone tossing a dart or shooting a gun with the projectile hitting someone, wouldn't be wrong because the person who tossed the dart or shot the gun didn't "touch" the victim themselves.

That teacher should be tossed in jail for "assult" on a citizen.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. disagree
95% of Americans turn their kids oover to the schools and they are a bigger influence on the next generation than the parents. The kids SHOULD HAVE STOOD, this was not a 1st amendment right,it was rude.
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. It is a first amendment right, Go to the ACLU website
and use the search button on "Pledge of alleigance." When i was in High school I did not stand either.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. You are correct.......
that now the interpretation of the 1st amendment does give a kid the right to sit quitely....BUT just because you can, doesn't mean you should......I stand by my personal beliefs that if I had a teenage child I would ask them to stand and NOT recite if he/she so chose. I have my avatar turned upsidedown. I think it's appropriate way of showing distain for what is happening in this country right now, BUT I would stand if the Pledge was played..


If you all were at an affair and * was there....would you stand and shake his hand and pay respect to the OFFICE he holds...or stay seated out of hate for this man?
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. umm you're making this sound partisan
If a Democrat was president, i would still sit down during the pledge. I sit down because I believe we have the fundamental right of freedom of speech. When the day they restrict out BASIC simple rights such as sitting down during the pledge then we're in deep trouble.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. We will have to agree to disagree
I support a Constitutional amendment banning burning of the Flag! That Flag BELONGS to me and 300 million other people. When you burn it you are defacing MY property. As for standing for the Pledge or *, I think some things are important. Teaching kids to respect our collective property is important. They have plenty of time to oppose it when they understand what they are opposing. I would not be taking this position if it happened on a college campus.

When I lived in Atlanta a 16 went to school with his jeans slung so low that his pubic hair showed and his crack. His VP insisted that he go home and change. He did. His mother sued the school and won! What are we teaching young people? That anarchy is ok. There are some exceptable society rules we all must live with?
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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. If I paid for the flag it's mine to do with as I please.
Right now mine hangs upside down at my house and it will stay that way until the fascist leave office. If burning a flag makes someone feel like they are making a statement so be it - it's better then some other types of protest.
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. oh btw I believe that we can burn the flag
just wanted to tell you that.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. It still does not give
the teacher the right to pull the chair out from under the kid. What if that kid got hurt? Who's fault would it be? The teacher or the kid?
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. kid should have fallen to the ground
burned a flag for your benefit and sued that teacher into a job at McDonalds. Collective property? MY property?
go read the Constitution.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
49. The flag is a piece of cloth.
It's what it stands for that's important.

Sheesh, you really don't believe much in the First Amendment, do you?

And you do NOT teach kids to 'respect our collective property' with violence. That teacher could have seriously injured that child, and the TEACHER should be suspended and investigated.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #37
57. It's a silly rule...anthems and flags. If YOU think it's important than
YOU stand up. Leave other people alone and stop indoctrinating kids into this nonsense.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #37
73. Yes, far better to desecrate what the flag STANDS FOR, i.e.
freedom of speech... speech meaning even, yes, dissent you don't like.

Jesus, talk about confusing the menu with the meal.

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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #37
83. with all respect
your position on flag burning is one of the silliest things I've seen on DU (and I've seen a lot of silly stuff). You claim that the flag belongs to you? Well, it belongs to ME, too. And if I want to express my disapproval for what MY country is doing under the banner of MY flag by burning it (as a way of contrasting the waving of the flag by the perpetrators of the policies and actions with which I disagree), that is and should remain my right as a matter of free speech. Amazingly, you have an upside down flag as an avatar. What line of distinction do you draw that would allow "disrespectful" displays of the flag to remain legall, but destruction of the flag to be criminalized.If I take a piece of cardboard and paint some stripes and stars on it, and burn it, should that be illegal? What if it doesn't have the right number of stripes and stars. Should it only be illegal to burn a flag as an act of political speech, but okay to toss in the trash the zillions of little flags that are handed out on the Fourth of July or at other "patriotic" events?

And, p.s., I don't have a problem with schools having clearly defined and reasonable dress restrictions -- but the idea of comparing someone wearing low-slung jeans (not political speech) and burning the flag -- well, that's just absurd.

onenote
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
87. How would you suggest we properly dispose of a flag, then, and
Edited on Sun Feb-20-05 12:52 PM by kgfnally
how would you suggest we take the actions of one who is properly disposing of their flag?

The whole anti-flag-burning argument makes exactly zero sense, as burning the flag is already the acceptable method of respectable disposal. How are you to know someone's disposing of the thing properly, rather than doing it as a protest? Signage of some sort? What if protesters have none, specifically because of your lack of knowledge of their motivation for their actions?

There are rules about leaving flags out in the rain or unlit after dark- do you take to task those who allow things like that to happen? You should.... if you're as passionate about treating our flag respectfully as you claim to be.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. I'd stay seated and scowl at the evil man
No way would I stand for that prick!
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LifeDuringWartime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. ditto
and not just because he's republican.

because he's a fucking asshole
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
64. Regarding the chimp.
If I inadvertently found myself in the chimp's presence, I'd stand up all right. And then I'd head for the door at breakneck speed. I'd never, not under any circumstances, shake hands with the slimy bastard.
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #23
84. stay seated n/t
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
58. You're 100% correct.
My dh is currently back in school getting his teaching license. They were specifically taught about this issue in a class on kids and their First amendment rights in the classroom, particularly cases that had gone before the US Supreme Court.

Children do NOT have to stand during the national anthem or the Pledge of Allegiance.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. And teachers wonder why our society is so violent.
Edited on Sat Feb-19-05 10:24 PM by SimpleTrend
Some teachers apparently teach violence with the impunity of a whole battery of colleagues and school-district lawyers coming to their defense.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
54. Yeah, it was rude, but I don't see why a person should take an oath
if they don't want to.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
74. Many teens don't give a flying Philadelphia f*ck about the 1st Amednment;
I think THEY are the problem, not this kid.

Seems to me something like half of teens surveyed recently felt that the first amendment goes "too far", and the government should have the power to censor speech, dissent, and the press.

Maybe the problem isn't that we're not teaching enough blind fucking obedience of the kind that makes people stand and recite something from rote, but that we're not teaching the values this country was founded upon: Freedom of speech (even the unpopular kind) Separation of Church and State, Freedom of the Press, etc. etc.

Some days it seems like some folks here could use a refresher course, too.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Pulling the chair out from under a person sitting on it is assault.
That guy didn't have to touch the kid to be wrong. Suspending the kid who took the pictures over the rationale given is bullshit. I taught for 27 years. The teacher should be suspended, the kid told he has to stand out of respect. People stand who have religious, etc objection to things and that is allowed. Making him sing would be wrong. STanding isn't. That teacher needs wacked. The district needs an investigation. This is bullshit.
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lawladyprof Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Nope--sorry
Government cannot compel you to stand for a religious exercise, especially if you are a student in school (see SCt cases Lee v. Weisman and Doe v. Santa Fe Indep. Sch. Dist.). Regarding not standing for the anthem, it is more than likely school cannot legally compel you to stand for that too if you are not disruptive.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
89. I've also come to realize the whole "respect the position" thing is bunk
I, for one, am incapable of respecting someone simply because of the position they hold; they are no "better" than I am. Further, if they themselves disrespect the position they hold, neither they nor their position (while they hold it) is worthy of respect.

My respect is earned, not given (this actually goes throughout my everyday life as well; it's amazing how many people seem to think they are entitled to respect just because of "who they are"). Were the current president to attempt to shake my hand, I'd merely look long at his, look deep in his eyes, and expressionlessly shake my head once.

I would spit at his feet, but that could be seen as a threat, so I guess that's out.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
91. I agree with you substantially, but differ in one respect
...I also question the teacher's "right to privacy" in a public classroom, paid for by taxpayer dollars, absent any specific school rule that says "no video cameras in classrooms without advance permission." I'm personally in favor of video cameras in classrooms, like you have at the Seven-Eleven. Tape over the survelliance if there's no incidents, but hey, if they had that kind of system, more teachers would be less inclined to lay hands on students, and students may behave more appropriately.

I disagree about requiring kids to stand, though. I might make those who don't want to stand relocate themselves to a bench if they would prefer to sit as a form of political speech. By requiring them to move, you cut out the "sheer laziness" factor and require the kid to make a decision. You can stand at your desk and remain silent, sit on the bench and remain silent, or stand for the foolish Pledge.

I always have had a problem with the Pledge. My allegiance has always been to my NATION, not a piece of cloth. The whole premise of the thing is wrong. That minister who wrote it clearly didn't think the whole concept through. It puts the flag first, the republic second. Sounds a little ass-backward to me....and all those additions over the years! They added UNITED STATES OF AMERICA because they feared that little Italian, Irish and Polish kids would think they pledged allegiance to the Italian, Irish and Polish flags. Then, under the McCarthy era, they added UNDER GOD, to make a point about how much better they were than the Godless Commies. Before you know it, if things keep up, kids will have to recite Mao-George's Little Red, White and Blue Book before they can go to their first class of the day. Lame, faux patriotism.

George Washington never had to say the pledge, and he was quite a patriot. I like the George Washington model for patriotic behavior, not the parroting of silly, twisted, run on sentences like an obedient little chunk of cannon fodder.
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. BS. The kid has a right not to stand.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Read about the Supreme Court decision on Jehovah's Witnesses
who refused to stand and salute the flag. A student cannot be compelled to stand for the National Anthem or to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

The teacher is probably a FREEPER and he would have probably killed the student had he said anything bad about Bush.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. leave politics out for a minute
standing and saluting is TWO DIFFERENT things. I wouldn't put my hand over my heart if ANOTHER counties anthem was playing. Does EVERYONE not stand at the Olympics regardless of who's countries anthem is playing?
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. you're starting from a wrong premise
You're saying that standing is the only way to show respect. That's now true, when I sat down during the flag salute I sat donw quitely with dignity for my other classmates.
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carnicat Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Actually, no.
1. The student shouldn't stand. A government that forces its citizens to show respect is authoritarian, not democratic. 2. Legally "assault" includes attacks that do not include physically touching the victim. The teacher assaulted the student. That is not in question. 3. The teacher has no right not to be filmed in a public place. He acted in front of a large group of people. His rights were in no way violated by someone in that group filming him.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. lets see
1) is YOUR OPINION which you have a right..that's why we have jury trials. 2/3 are covered by state law i'm sure.
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Hmm well the CONSTITUTION doesn't agree with you,
I'm sorry
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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. Well said carnicat and ProudToBeLiberal
My son sometimes chooses to leave the room. Even quietly reading is fine as long as they don't disrupt the class. Sorry but their is no need to "stand to show respect" when you don't believe in something.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
47. Signs of facisim
Right here from that teacher.
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. no the student does not have to stand!
At my son's recient graduation all were asked to stand for the pledge of alegence I did not intentionaly as my wife sat beside me in her wheelchair, and as for the bowing of heads, not me, and the prayer nope, the god that i know knows my heart, I can't fool by bowing my head, there, we are just fooling ourselves, and we know it. And another thing the pledge should say with TRUTH, LIBERTY and JUSTACE FOR ALL. venting, thanks du.
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. ok, going for the yellow star!
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
67. Was this prayer at a public school graduation?? That has been ruled
unconstitutional.
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Spacejet Donating Member (162 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. Bzzt wrong
The SCOTUS has ruled students have a RIGHT to SIT.

Or are you above the supreme court, serry?
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. the more important question is, are you above the constitution?
nt
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Spacejet Donating Member (162 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Last time I checked
the constitution protected ones freedom of speech/religion. I'd never dishonor it by denying that freedom to others as some apparently would.
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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. It's not rude to sit, it's rude to force someone to stand
It's even ruder to attack someone because their beliefs are different then yours and that is exactly what that teacher did - he should be given his walking papers.
Maybe they should make this optional by doing it before school starts, instead of taking up time during the school day.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #38
75. Seems to me the kid taught the lesson that day.
Edited on Sun Feb-20-05 03:52 AM by impeachdubya
1st Amendment, Civil Disobedience. Bravo.

Another prize goes to the kid who filmed it. Investigative journalism, which is sorely fucking lacking these days.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
44. The kid shouldn't have to stand
if he's protesting.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
55. Nonsense! If YOU feel that way fine. He is under no obligation to stand.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
56. The kid didn't need to stand...unless it's forced patriotism
If the teacher had any kind of brain, he might have pointed out why the kid deserved the right to sit down because it is his right as an American.

It would make the value of someone standing up for the anthem more meaningful.

I hope the kid's family sues the pants off the school.
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
59. We don't have a Department of Virtue and Vice like some countries.
Rudeness is not illegal. Yea he was being rude but he is a teenager and this is America. I didn't stand either in school. It's like burning the flag. It's a sign of just how healthy our freedom is when we allow this.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
78. Yeah, did you watch the video?

"didn't do anything wrong", my ass. The guy has obvious MAJOR problems. But he's obviously a patriot, so I guess it's o.k.



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njdemocrat106 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. No, it wasn't me
I'm not the Jay from Brick High who did this. Besides I graduated from there in 1999 :).
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BlackVelvetElvis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. This guy doesn't need to be teaching.
If this is an example of how he handles his emotions.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
7. The school will have trouble over this.
If the teacher pulled the chair out from under the student, it could have resulted in a serious back injury. The student is within his rights not to stand (I believe ACLU got a ruling on this some years ago).

A case of assault against the teacher would have a better chance if the kids weren't snickering throughout the tape..

The cameraman is due an apology from the school district.
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Us vs Them Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. The child had a right to remain seated.
By making a conscious decision not to stand with the rest of the class, he was opting out of participation, and should have been deducted points accordingly. This is a classroom, not a prison.

Forcing a child to stand through any physical act is clearly bordering on abuse. Individuals prone to jumping to these brash disciplinary decisions have NO place dealing with children.

Uncalled for. Entirely. I would have fired the teacher.
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. and should have been deducted points accordingly...wtf?
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying but are you trying to say that the student should have been punish like detention or something for not standing?
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Spacejet Donating Member (162 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Apparently the poster
has not been educated on SCOTUS precedent...
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Us vs Them Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. Participation points.
Where I went to school one would be graded on daily conduct. Forgot your book? Lost participation points. Didn't feel like joining class discussion. Again, deducted participation points. This is mearly one example of alternate discipline that should have been taken. There is absolutely no excuse for the conduct the TEACHER displayed. If you lose your cool in the classroom, you've also lost respect of those you're intended to teach. I think in this case even detention would have been too severe a punishment. So, yes, we may have had a case of misunderstanding.
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Senator Lamb Donating Member (492 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. this is crazy
im from Brick
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Spacejet Donating Member (162 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
29. Legally I would imagine the student filming is in the right
he was filming evidence of a crime.

If state law says you can't film a person with out consent, surely there would be an exception in the case of documenting evidence of a crime...
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
52. God! I LOVE THIS!
Seeing a Freeper fuckwad asshole "teacher" trying to force people to listen to what must be the LAMEST version of the Natioal Anthem and have it all caught on video.

Priceless!
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
39. Ain't Democracy grand?
And we wonder why the world hates us!
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rainbow4321 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #39
77. If the video was from...
Edited on Sun Feb-20-05 04:07 AM by rainbow4321
"Brick, Iran" instead of "Brick, NJ", shrub and the media would be shoving it down our throat 24/7 as proof for us needing to invade and "rescue" Iranians from a "brutal dictatorship" that is in of "American democracy" <wow, how oxymoron have those 2 words become?>

I figure the next thing we have to look forward to is this teacher getting a job as a GOP voting booth poll watcher in 2008..."You WILL vote for <insert repuke name here>, just shut up, damn it".
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
42. What about the teacher screaming during the anthem? disrespect? n/t
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
43. OMG!!
That is SO wrong!!!! I remember when I was in tenth grade in a chemistry class it was the first one and there was a kid who refused to stand for the pledge and the teacher got really pissed off at him. It's called freedom of speech! :grr:
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Spacejet Donating Member (162 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
45. One thing though...
if this is a private school he's screwed...
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
50. apparently, they are teaching the kids to be free to obey authority
that young man has guts.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #50
79. Particularly, the red faced, shouting, blind-with-rage
brand of authority.

Hmmm. Combine that with flag waving, unquestioning nationalism, and there's no telling WHAT a nation can accomplish.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
51. ACLU....cleanup on aisle 3! n/t
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
53. What a perplexing idiotic Stalinist display and policy from the school
What exactly were the students to understand what the real meaning of the National anthem is?

Are they to presume YOU MUST STAND when one of the most horrible renditions of the song plays or IS FILMING THE EVENT A THREAT TO FREEDOM somehow?

This is Classic Freeperzoidism.
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Placebo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
60. That's pretty scary...
We didn't even have the National Anthem played @ my high school in the morning. We did have it played in grade school, and were "expected" to stand for that, and if you didn't, you just got dirty looks from the teacher and maybe a quiet "Stand up!" motion.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
61. I'm a teacher and here's what I think.
The teacher is behaving pathetically. Obviously, he doesn't belong there and has no clue how to motivate his class to do anything. Really, if I were an administrator I would be concerned for the safety of students. He seems out of control.

The student is being rude and disrespectful, however it's not surprising since the teacher is not behaving in a way that would inspire respect.

There is no excuse for the student's behavior, and even less for the teacher's.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. theres no excuse for GW's behavior
so to expect anything more from a kid is unrealistic.
The teacher needs some corporal punishment.
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Placebo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. I agree.
It's as much your right to stand up for the national anthem, as it is mine to sit down during it.
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Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
65. If some whackjob manhandled my child that way,
Edited on Sun Feb-20-05 01:25 AM by Vektor
He'd warrant a beating so bad his mother would feel it.

That sorry son of a bitch needs to have his ass kicked. A sick bastard like that is not fit to be teaching, he needs to be in prison. Someone who acts that way doesn't deserve an ounce of respect from his students. That student would have been justified in knocking him flat on his ass.
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Us vs Them Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. I hope we're not advocating violence in response to violence.
However much of a dangerous prick that guy came off as. Fired? Immediately.
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Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. When talking about one's own child...
I think that pacifism flies out the window and most want to tear a new ass on anyone who abuses their child.

Gratuitous violence? No.

Violence in response to aggression toward my own kid? That has been known to happen to even the nicest person.

And I definitely advocate physically defending one's own person, too. If that student wanted to shove the guy out of his personal space, he had every right, IMHO. It's when kids are told not to challenge "adult authority" that they become open targets for victimizers.
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
66. Humor on: next time stand and sing original lyrics
Really tinkle in their wheaties...sing the "Hymn to Anachreon" a sappy English drinking song.

Each verse ends with
...we endevor to entwine
the myrtle of Venus
with Baccus' vine.

End of music history lesson/humor off.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
70. hahahahaaaaaaaaaa....this thread is so good I couldn't bookmark
Edited on Sun Feb-20-05 02:55 AM by Gabi Hayes
it.....

cause I aleady DID!

I work in a Jr. High school, and for the last three years have had to film or broadcast the pledge EVERY DAY. I LOVE it when the kids screw around while they say it.....it's the BEST when they really ham it up: making faces, or, even better, doing GANG signs. we get to play the tape of them doing stuff like that later, if they do the gang signifying, cause we have a bit of incipience going there. it's funny as hell, cause the kids deny they did it, then we get to play the tape for em

I NEVER, EVER stand when it's being played or done live. Even yesterday, when a returning GWII vet (blackhawk pilot) was there. his son is one of the 'broadcasters'

a couple of times people have axed me why I never say the pledge and I ask them what difference it makes to them

they think there's something wrong with me
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. btw, whenever a kid says they don't feel like doing the pledge,
I tell them they don't have to, and for them to tell the principal that they don't want to; that nobody can force them to

so far nobody has ever made a big deal out of it, but usually, if they feel like it, other teachers might make a kid stand. It hasn't ever gone beyond that
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
72. What? Someone WOULDNT STAND for the pledge???!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!




I think That picture is going to be my stock response to each and every one of these right-wing 15 minute hate bullshit topics they seem to want to throw up every couple weeks or so.

"Liberals Want to ban Christmas!"...
"Cupertino is banning the declaration of independence!"
"A couple from berkeley is hanging a US Soldier in Effigy!"
"Michael Moore said the USA is full of doody-heads!"

Fucking imbeciles.

As it is, on the topic at hand- my opinion is, the teacher should be fired. Period, end of discussion. That's assault.

And no, I don't know who that is in the picture.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
76. The teacher is obviously a limp-dick freeper.

Motherfucker obviously has serious problems and aggression issues. I don't think it's possible to watch that without realizing that there is something horribly, horribly wrong with that pathetic, frustrated little wannabe fascist.

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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
80. This teacher is seriously disturbed -- and his students know it
They're taunting a guy whom they know has already lost it. Honestly, I thought the guy would have a heart attack, he was so enraged. He's totally lost control of his classroom.

I betcha a conservative teacher who quietly allowed dissenting students to sit would garner a lot more respect -- and courtesy -- from his classroom.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
81. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say...
you must stand for the National Anthem... In fact it
doesn't even *MENTION* a National Anthem.

Standing for the Anthem and putting your hand on your
heart is not a law anywhere. It is simply a tradition.

So, I'd say there was absolutely no justification for
the actions of the teacher or the school district.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
82. He had a right to sit, but he was disrespectful for doing so.
I know people like him who are just disrespectful to virtually everything. When I see that video, I see bad actors all the way around from the teacher to the students.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
85. ACLU time, baby. There's about a hundred different problems, there.
Tee 'em up.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
86. It's interesting that no one has commented on the conspiracy aspects
of this. Generally, the tone here is that the teacher committed assault when the student had a legal right to not stand. But what about the conspiracy of the principal and other colleagues in punishing the videographer, and failing to mete out any sanction whatsoever to the teacher?

Surely, the principal and staff know what the law is, why would an aggressive defense of the teacher involve actively punishing the student who filmed the incident?

Has RICO ever been applied to schools?
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pauliedangerously Donating Member (843 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
88. As a former class clown....
I remember asshole teachers like that being the easiest ones to elicit giggles from the rest of the class. What a big fucking bag of fart gas. That video brings back a lot of amusing memoroies...and people wonder why others don't respect authority.

I wonder who Mister Dickweed voted for in 2004.
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porkrind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
90. Sig Heil !
That teacher is a fucking brownshirt.
"... The class started out that morning with Mantel yelling "I don't want to hear a sound! Not a sound! Morning exercises will come on, you will stand, you will stand quietly, you will pay attention! Any Questions!?...Now stand up and keep your mouths shut!" Students stood up as the national anthem began playing."
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. He's getting the little bastards ready for boot camp
They're all about the right age to become "freedom fodder" in the neverending quest for BushCo oil, after all....
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