The Iraq war...an incredible failure to say the least...now when we need

[xultar]

to fight no one will come to our aid. Bush= the boy who cried WOLF.
Discuss

[Name removed]

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[pelsar]

3. i just read a lot....

and like i wrote...the jury is still out...and just for the record wmd was not the real reason..that was the excuse, the PR spin if you will

daily sucide bombings, attacks does not mean that the whole country is falling apart, its a large country

and the number of dailys.....it appears to be over 20....with TV/radio etc free

it seems that most of the population gets up in the morning and goes to work, they are not cowering in their homes, leaving them to make refugee camps in the neigborhing countries, attacking the US forces (evident by the fact that the us still patrols on foot, uses lightly armored vehicles etc)

like i wrote....your title is all wrong, it assumes a black and white condition which is simply not the case,

and actually i dont watch fox.

and they had the subtle form of terrorism that is characterisic of dictatorships.....mass killings, disapperances, a cowered population....or have you decided that those things never happened?

[Q]

4. I'm surprised that you think there IS a jury...

...I don't mean to be rude...but it's 3 o'clock in the morning and it's a bit difficult to take Bush Talking Points so early.

You say you 'read a lot'...but what is that supposed to mean? You could read a lot of bathroom walls and that won't bring you any closer to the truth. And if you're as well informed as you suggest...then you'd know that the free press is dead in America.

Your problem seems to be that you believe that clean water can come from a poisoned well. Good things like honest voting, democracy and peace can never materialize from an unprovoked, illegal invasion. In another time and place...Nuremberg would be the answer to this question.

You speak of dictatorships, mass killings and a cowered population. But the thing is...you don't even know how many innocent Iraqis have been 'disappeared' from the face of the earth by bombs, torture or blown away as 'collateral damage' in this unjust war. Neither of us know because the Bush Doctrine doesn't call for body counts. But you can bet on one thing to be true...the innocents are equally dead whether they were killed by Saddam or Bush.

I won't go over your talking points one by one because they're so divorced from reality that I wouldn't know where to begin. Suffice it to say that once Bush's 'shock and awe' carpet bombing was over...there was little or no chance that this unwise and unneeded adventure could ever be called a 'success'.

[pelsar]

5. and that makes no sense

there was little or no chance that this unwise and unneeded adventure could ever be called a 'success'.


thats your view in a nushell.....what ever is happening on the ground in iraq (a lot can be inferred by the way the US forces patrol....) you position is that it simply cannot be good because of how it started.

thats a rather simplistic viewpoint...that doesnt really relate to those involved. Nor does that attitude probably relate to your "real life"....


do you live in a home? buy clothes that were once made by a company many years ago that used child labor? use a train whos tracks were produced by slave labor? live in a country that years ago decimated the native population?.....I thought so......Iraq too may evolve for the better.....

and since i dont live there, my info can only come via reading, videos, TV and like I mentioned, a bit of analysis of the situation from those same picts....and you?...where does you info come from?

[Q]

6. It's not only about the way it started...

...but the motivations about WHY. The Bushie Neocons had planned to attack Iraq BEFORE George ever took office. What a coincidence that 9-11 came along to give them an excuse.

I'm sure the Bush Government relishes the thought that you are willing to excuse their high crimes because Iraqis were given the chance to vote for a puppet government.

For your information...it's treason to lie a nation into war and unnecessarily put our troops in harm's way. It's a war crime to advocate torture of 'suspected' terrorists and to bomb civilian populations and infrastructures.

Can Iraq 'evolve' at the point of a gun and under occupation? The only evolution they can expect is to become a colony of a US military 'dictatorship' and a staging point for wars against Bush's so-called 'axis of evil'.

Iraq is in ruins and tens of thousands of civilians have been killed in order to pound the country into submission. It's now a breeding ground for terrorists seeking revenge for these unnecessary deaths. Untold numbers of American toops have been killed and maimed for a war based on lies and deceptions.

The video and 'pics' you're seeing must be coming from the 'embedded' corporate media that also happens to be making great profits from their defense contractor subsidiaries. They don't report anything other than from the scripts that come directly from the Bush White House. It's their well-paid job to report only the 'good news' coming from Iraq. And if there IS no good news...they simply invent it.

[pelsar]

10. in ruins?

a bit of exageration here no? iraq is in ruins?...did you ever see what a city/country looks like when its in ruins? (check out berlin 1945). Like I mentioned earlier, just the fact the american and British troops are not Locked down in their tanks and other heavy armored vehicles says more than any words about the danger they face. It obviously exists...but not enough to force them "inside"

Iraq is hardly "in ruins"..as far as "evolving goes" it seems quite a few countries in time have evolved since their colonial times...I hardly see iraq as being different. As far as bushes future wars....er he only has 4 yrs left...which may cut short your time line of "colonialship"

and so there IS no good news?...then I would have expected to see thousands of refugees streaming towards the borders....but they dont exist do they?...

and here we have the "white house controls everything" syndrom....except that I dont get all my news from the big networks, and it comes in as mixed good and bad, with lots of hope.

[Inland]

9. Oh, please. "A big country". "People go to work" "Dailies"

That's not evaluation. That's excuse making, and not good excuse making.

Iraq is about 22 million people. That's small enough to notice a car bombing every day or so, sabotage on the oil pipelines, and forced removals of populations, and intentional killings of groups of law enforcement and civil officials. This sort of political violence occurs on top of the organized crime that occurs when 30% to 40% of the population is unemployed.

While that level of violence is bad enough, when one considers it is occuring despite martial law and the prescence of 180,000 occupying soldiers, one can appreciate the iminence of a civil war. The country isn't falling apart because the US holds it together militarily. Without the brute force of US power, what will hold the country together?

Electricity and oil production is below pre war levels, with billions of aid and, again, the security.

The amazing democratic vote turns out to be a majority ethnic group agreeing to majority rule, not the most surprising of stands. The real tests of democracy--minority rights and the second election--seem far away, and the Bush administration isn't bothered by that.

Fact is, two years later all we can say is that Saddam is gone. Iraq has already paid tens of thousands of civilian lives for that benefit. Now what?

[pelsar]

11. a mess?

of course its a mess.....helllooo, only the most niave could have expected the country to be put back together in a few months and blossom. Of course the US forces are the only ones keeping it from falling apart...thats what happens after a country is dismantled....the only real question is, is which way is it going?...has it started on the road to a democratic state, which may very will take 10 yrs to develop or will it be still born and go the way of iran?

thats what its all about now...not whats happening tomorrow, but what will be in 3-10 yrs.

[Bridget Burke]

12. You mentioned the occasional suicide bombing was no big problem.

Please pass that sentiment on to the Israelis. They seem to get all bent out of shape when they lose a handful of citizens. And they have fewer bombings than Iraq--tell them to get over it!

The invasion of Iraq was illegal according to international law. Planning & Waging Aggressive War were the major charges at Nuremberg. For the big guys, not the "I was only following orders" crowd.

By the way, Iran is already a democratic state. The mullahs & the military have too much power, but the democratic process is in place. It needs some tuning up--but we need to fix our OWN democratic process before we go blowing up another country.

[Inland]

13. "only the most naive". Aside from the screwups running the show from DC

who was naive? I would say that its the guy who says that the crap now is somehow proof that things are on the road to a democratic state. Problem is, there isn't any evidence it is a road to a democratic state. Roads to civil war and roads to another Saddam all have the sort of violence, civil strife, economic failure, and lack of functioning institutions we see today.

You aren't evaluating Iraq. You are finding reasons not to, or to ignore the current events, by writing it off as a "few months" (aren't we completing the second year?) and saying that we have to wait three to ten years, another completely bullshit number. What's magic about three years, or ten years? It's as if all good things come with the mere passage of time. Talk about naive.

[mikelewis]

14. I agree with you Pelsar

Yes, Bush lied us into war and has been pulling some shady shit during the war. The carpet bombing of civilian areas, the torturing of prisoners on and on and on

But on the other hand, it's our soldiers who are fighting and dying over there. They're the ones trying to wrestle this unwieldy country under control without the proper equipment or sufficient numbers to alliviate the stress on them. I think they're doing a fine job. They don't have a choice in the matter. They don't care if Bush lied as that's not important to thier overall mission.

My guess is a lot of people want Iraq to be a disaster so it can help us politically but that's the wrong stance to take. Yes there is bad but there is good as well and to deny the latter to capitolize on the bad is childish and self-defeating. Thanks for your reply.

I do disagree with the statement about the Lebanes however. There are those that believe Harari was killed not by Syria but by the U.S. or Isreal. I tend to agree with thier beliefs that it wasn't Syria who did this. I also don't think it's "people power" that is forcing Syria out of Lebanon, it's our power that's forcing them out. I think this is going to blow up in our face if we're not careful.

Also the Iraqi Free Press isn't really free. They shut down papers that oppose thier viewpoint or sympathize with the insurgents. It's a damn site better than the old Iraqi Press but it's hardly free.

Other than those two areas, I agree with you.

[pelsar]

15. mikelewis....

i read your other thread..and "bow" to your greater knowledge on iraq, as you have a first hand source, mine are more "local." but via news outlets (whats the story with their satillite dishes....that was big news around my neighborhood...). I just get mad when someones political agenda gets in the way of reality...one sees it a lot around here. How we got into Iraq and/or why is no longer relevant to those on the ground, be it iraqis or americans, and I think its a shame for those who wish so hard for it to fail, sometimes one has to swallow ones pride and ego and hope for the best.....

Lebanon...now thats a tricky one, i guess were stuck more in "believing" one or the other. News reports that I'm getting and the analysis say syria screwed up. Whatever the reason, if syria is kicked out, Hizballa loses a major backer, and who knows what that might do to the country.....I tend to the optimist side of life....


and for Bridget Burke who mentioned....
Please pass that sentiment on to the Israelis. They seem to get all bent out of shape when they lose a handful of citizens. And they have fewer bombings than Iraq--tell them to get over it!t

I am an israeli.....so I kinda understand that suicide bombings dont really disrupt the fabric of ones everyday life, nor do they represent the "day to day" for joe citizen.....thats how i understand that the roadside bombs and car bombings are not causing iraq to "be in ruins"


and for Inland....
my initial post was in reaction to the title...making the issue black and white...its not. Whether its going democratic or theocratic (iran is "democratic'.....somebody forgot to tell the ayatollas that-the ones that run the country....) is "up in the air" with to many unknowns, be it the players or events that have yet to happen.

[mikelewis]

16. The question of Harari's assasination....

raises a question of benefit.

Who benefits from a this act? If it was Syria and that possibility does exist, what would have been their goal?

I understand that he was a popular leader of the movement to seek a different form of cooperation with Syria, less troop presence and more self-governance. I don't want to say anit-Syrian because that's not really what he was about. He was more pro-lebanon independence than anti-Syrian.

The reality of his assisination is that only an organized clandestine force could have perpetrated this attack. This man had a lot of money and the some of the best security available that money could buy. He had a group of loyal followers who were committed to protect him. This is clearly an attack from a state run organization.

If it was Syria that did this, it was a colossally stupid move that offered no benefit for them in the long term or obviously the short term. I'm not ruling out that they did this but it makes no sense.

On the other foot, if it was us or the Mossad, we gain some immediate short term benefits and some long term benefits as long as it isn't discovered that we did it. I'm not saying it was a bad move entirely, if they can pull it off. What concerns me is that most of the Arabs I speak to believe that we did it. That's troubling. Even if they never find out who did it, the end result is the same. The rumor is enough to unravel anything we do in Lebanon and this could throw that country into civil war.

Many anti-Syrian groups, armed with the idea that it was us who killed their leader may not join the effort to force Syria to withdraw or will join the movement with Hezbollah. Also the overwhelming image of the pro-Syrian demonstration has to lend credit to the idea that many people do not believe Syria was responsible or that they do not care if they were.

Now, this may have been the intention of Syria. Maybe they are clever enough to orchestrate this attack with the goal of discrediting our side through innuendo. That's a distinct possibility. If this is the case, then they must have wanted to withdraw from Lebanon and his assasination would provide the right catalyst to prompt thier exit. They must believe Lebanon will spiral out of control when they leave and we go in and establish a presence in that country. Hezbollah will never allow a US or Isreali presence in Lebanon. That's a rather risky proposition but the only reason I can see for them to kill this man.

I have always wondered why the assasination of the Archduke Ferdinand served as such a powerful catalyst to throw the entire world into war. I have a much better understanding of that event now though I do not think this is exactly the same scenario, at this time.

[pelsar]

17. the rumors......

they are probably far more powerful than any "facts"....too many times we have seen some political maneuver being "thwarted" by players and events that were either unforseen or simply unexpected. I'm not much for the "vast conspiracy" theories, or secret ops that manipulate entire peoples in going in one direction or the other.

for all the neighboring countries, you could (as you've shown) given a plausable reason for having killed him, which is probably why we'll never know.

the assassination of the duke perhaps is a good example, though I now little about it, did the various "countries" forsee that his assassination would have caused WWI?

closer to home israel nutured the hamas many years ago to aid in the fight against the PLO...kinda backfired....

as far as I can tell in Lebanon there is now a "protest" war going on, as well as quite a bit of political maneuvering within the govt. I doubt anybody or group can possibly forsee the outcome.....so whoever "started it"...its now beyond that, with events triggering counter events leading.........? (just hope they've had enough of their last civil war.....)

[mikelewis]

18. I hope so too

When I was about 17, I worked with a Labonese man who talked about how beautiful a country he lived in prior to the civil war. Every Lebonese person, I'm sure wishes to return to a time when thier country was a jewel. Hopefully, through his death, Harari can accomplish this.

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[xultar]

8. I was doing these to push a troll calling Obama a N-gger off the front

page so give it a rest...will ya. You weren't awake at 3am to see the bloodbath.