If the Constitution was amended to outlaw flag burning, would you renounce

[Guaranteed]

Poll question: If the Constitution was amended to outlaw flag burning, would you renounce

your citizenship?

I think that would be my breaking point. Once this country reaches that level of hypocrisy, once it throws out that ultimate freedom, I think I'm finished and leaving. I couldn't tolerate it. There wouldn't be anything left to fight for.

I expect that most here wouldn't feel the same way, but I'd like to see how many actually would.

[slackmaster]

1. It's about as likely as Arnold Schwarzenegger running for President

Not worth the time state legislators would spend voting on it.

Call me optimistic, but I think an anti-flag-burning amendment would be seen as a waste of time by most people.

[Guaranteed]

3. Fine. But what if they did it?

Some Republican, I can't remember who, actually brought it up a week or two ago.

[slackmaster]

4. I'd run around the block screaming like a chicken

Or something like that.

[Guaranteed]

7. Chickens scream?

:)

[Morose]

38. Run up behind one and yell BOOOOO!

and you'll find out :D

[Wild Bill]

2. don't worry about it.

It's not going to happen. If it was going to happen it would have been done already. The idea has been floating around since the 1980s.

You should be far more worried about the bankruptcy reform bill.

[Guaranteed]

5. Right, but what's your breaking point?

Would this be it, or anywhere close?

[Norquist Nemesis]

6. Not to worry.

I don't see it as happening. If it does, I'll organize a book burning...Bibles only that is. :evilgrin:

[asjr]

8. Besides, we don't need it. There are enough Middle Eastern

countries already burning it.

[bowens43]

9. No I wouldn't but I'd burn one hell of a lot of flags

[NoPasaran]

10. Depends

On whether or not Dennis Kucinich votes for it.

[eridani]

45. Dennis is flat out wrong about supporting this

He does it because his brother (permanently institutionalized due to his experienced in Vietnam) asked him to. A good example of how leading from the gut makes for bad public policy.

[Demit]

11. It's just a symbol. I'd get more worked up about tangible issues,

things that touched my life in real, concrete ways. Burning the flag is a symbolic act. I think there are other much more potent and potentially effective forms of free speech, ones I would get up in arms about if they were taken away.

[Guaranteed]

13. I think this issue is the epitome of what the 1st Amendment stands

for, though. It's the right to speak out against what your government is doing. It's the essence of democracy.

[Demit]

15. I understand that. But in reality--in pragmatic terms--banning this

specific act would still not ban your right to speak out. You could still stand up on a soapbox and address a crowd, or print thousands of leaflets and distribute them. You could still speak out against your government, and in ways that are more likely to effect change. I'm just thinking in practical terms here.

If they took away my right to burn a flag, and left alone my right to criticize the government, my life wouldn't be changed. If they did the reverse, that would be a fundamental, radical, profound change, and I'd be scared shitless.

[Guaranteed]

16. But they wouldn't have left that right alone at all.

They would have just taken away your right to criticize your government as you please, as long as you're not pushing violence.

I just disagree. I think that if you can't burn the flag, it doesn't mean anything. That amendment would be the worst desecration of our flag I could think of.

[Demit]

20. I think of criticism as having some element of analysis, and persuasion

That is, you have observed something and are pointing out the faults in it, and how it could be better; you speak out in the hopes that your speech leaves your audience agreeing with you. Burning a flag is just showing your deep and profound contempt for your country--and the flag is a symbol of the country, not just the people in charge of the government at that moment--but it doesn't say anything about why you feel that way.

I see that it is a very important symbol to you, the right to burn this symbol, but I can't share your alarm. I don't really mean this to be snarky, but--after you have renounced your citixenship and left the country, because they have banned the act, I can still be here criticizing the government and working to change it.

Peace :)

[Guaranteed]

21. Sure, at least for a little while. nt

[Demit]

22. Well, now you're saying that other limits would be bound to follow,

and that may well be true, but that's not how you framed the issue in your opening post. If you see this amendment as the thin edge of the wedge, that's a whole other thing.

[Guaranteed]

23. You've already given it up anyway.

Criticism of the government doesn't have to be analytical, or even specific.

It can be as simple as saying "Boo!!" or burning a flag.

And there's no reason to stop there once you've done that.

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. Until they call your speech 'symbolic flag burning' and jail you

for being a public disturbance.

It always starts small.

[MAlibdem]

12. I don't like flag burning

but as long as it is protected speech, ill support people's right to burn flags

if made unconstitutional, it would not longer be protected free speech.

[Guaranteed]

14. I don't like it either, because in my mind it actually

represents something other than our national government. But it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone, and I can't imagine a real democracy that would lawfully prohibit their people from doing it.

[Silverhair]

17. Any 13 states can block and amendment.

Won't happen. That said, I would still stay.

[amazona]

18. I don't think you can renounce U.S. citizenship

Ask Bobby Fischer or any number of ex-pats still paying U.S. federal tax even though they don't live here.

Be that as it may, the lack of liberty and ability to travel -- or even to be allowed to live anywhere -- that is accorded a stateless person is not at all enviable. Seems you'd be out of the frying pan and into the fire. The Terminal is a fun movie but probably not a pleasant lifestyle.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Silverhair]

19. During the late 60s I think some states made assaulting a flag burner

punishable by a $5 fine. I'm not sure about that. I do remember some bills being introduced but I never knew if they passed. I hope not as that would be a legal mess if someone actually tried it.

I have never burned a flag and don't like the actions of those who do, but I believe that it is a vital part of their free speech rights, and therefore mine as well.

[w4rma]

25. It won't happen. Most folks don't want the Constitution messed with for BS

like this. And federal Constitution amendments need a lot more folks than just "most" to become part of the Constitution.

[tinanator]

26. one of the hotter smokescreens to come our way.

RIP Bill

so whats your second biggest issue?

[Guaranteed]

27. Huh? nt

[tinanator]

29. Bill Hicks covered this 15 years ago

and Im wondering what else scares you as much?
and what would I do if they did something so silly?
I'd burn my first flag, of course. followed by my 2nd, 3rd etc

[Guaranteed]

31. It's not the scariness, although it is scary.

It'd just be the last little bit of democracy that we have left being flushed down the toilet. All we have now is the 1st Amendment- luckily, for the most part, it's been uninfringed, at least legally, up to this point.

They do this, and there goes that, too. That's the last bit.

I'm just not going to be a part of this. I refuse to live in a country that I don't respect- and it's already bad enough, as it is.

[tinanator]

33. fight or flight?

I think the Habeas Corpus and privacy issues that the Bush regime wasted no time trampling after years, decades and centuries of precedent, due to a nightmarish security failure they are responsible for in more ways than one are more than enough reason to consider options. Mine is a boot up Bush's ass, hopefully in a manner he wont enjoy.

[Guaranteed]

35. I'm not going to fight these pieces of shit just so I can be

around them. These fucking clowns are destroying everything, flag burning amendment or not, and this place is going down. This shit they're pulling isn't going to fly with the rest of the world.

I don't even wanna be here when the shit hits the fan. And, in any case, I'm going to wash my hands of it before it does. I won't be responsible for this, I don't want to witness it from the inside.

There are plenty of good democracies around, based on our system (which is actually kind of a beautiful thing- our country really did spread the seed around, long ago- and now it's decaying, like Hamlet....or Charlotte's Web?). There's no reason not to go to one of them, where people have their heads on straight, and I can be PROUD to call myself a part of their country, and I can walk down the street and respect the people I'm surrounded by.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: A country is defined by its people. These people, many of them, at least- the most powerful- are shit. They don't believe in America. There's really only one little thread that America is hanging by at this point, and that's the 1st Amendment. If that goes, fuck it. I'm out.

[Guaranteed]

32. Think about it- there'd just be nothing left

that makes this country worth living in. They've got Congress, the Presidency, the media, the voting booths, and they're working on the courts. They've already taken all kinds of rights away from us, the 4th Amendment in particular. I even hear these fuckers say things like "Not everyone has the right to vote." What's left if they take the 1st, too?

Nothing. It'd all be gone. The trust our founding fathers left to us will have been emptied.

[tinanator]

34. when all the laws have been outlawed only outlaws will have laws

I think there are prescriptions in the Constitution and many examples throughout history which give us better things to do than pack our bags. I personally harbor no illusions about freedoms of speech or the press over the last few years and even longer. This situation is fairly bipartisan, every bit as much as it is unAmerican. Stand by your Constitution and dont sign off on any of their bullshit. They cant take inalienable rights you will not surrender. Say it with me now...

[Walt Starr]

28. Only one thing would ever convince me it's right to burn a flag

Amending the constitution to give a symbol rights. I'd burn that symbol after that crock of shit got passed.

I've never burned a flag nor been tempted to burn a flag, but that crock of shit would convince me flags need burning!

[tinanator]

30. they CANT pass such an amendment

then theyd have one less bullshit topic of faux division to ignite the masses when an election approaches.

[TroglodyteScholar]

36. Wouldn't renounce -- would BURN SOME FLAGS. (eom)

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guaranteed]

39. I'm actually really against desecrating the flag.

The flag is true, and still represents the best of America. It's just being distorted.

But the best of the best that it represents is the right to burn it. If you want to spit on the flag, that is absolutely YOUR RIGHT. Please, do. That's the beauty of it.

[TheOriginalAmerican]

40. I would not renounce my citizenship.

I would simply do the American thing. That would be to fight for the constitutional right to burn the flag.

This type of amendment would not be constitutional. I don't think it would last forever.

[Technowitch]

41. Me, I'd begin using flags to start fires in our woodstove

Just to make my own point about it.

I'd probably burn one on every 4th of July, too.

And if anybody objected (the usual line being "people died for that flag"), I'd respond, "No, nobody died for the flag. People died for the cause of freedom and liberty, not for the idolatrous worship of a symbolic piece of cloth."

[Guaranteed]

42. That's right.

Making me tear up. :)

[ZootSuitGringo]

43. I don't think that this issue is worth my attention right now,

considering that we already have citizens are being held without due process(Jose Padilla); one is guilty until proven innocent; The US is starting shit all over the globe; social security in the future is questionnable; debtor prisons will be back in no time; education is being privatized right before our very eyes; gas is up to $2.00+ average per gallon; ANWAR is about to probably happen; voting machines are rigged; free speech against the government happens in holding pens "free speech zones"; the corporate media is deaf and dumb and loves this admin; campaign reforms is a "has-been"; the Republicans own the military; health care is rising faster than gas prices; tort reform will eventually lead to the loss of most consumer rights; this nation may be going bankrupt via our defense Department and Halliburton anytime; corporation are considered people; the separation between church and state is dissolving; Women's right to choose is being questioned at every turn; and you're worried about whether a flag can or cannot be burned?

IMO, It won't matter if we are allowed to burn a flag, if it's the only thing we are left able to do.

Personally I think that being sold out by the media is a much more powerful and bigger 1st admendment concern that affects just about everything else currently going on.

Sorry, but the flag burning issue just doesn't quite move me in the way that the other issues mentioned do. In fact, it's probably in last place as to what concerns me that is going wrong with this nation.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

44. I can't leave. Wish I could. Would already be gone. n/t