When did America stop being a democracy?

[Blue Christmas]

Poll question: When did America stop being a democracy?

Can anybody pin down the exact day this once-great land stopped being a democracy? Or is it still a democracy, and our freedom hasn't completely marched on to other lands (yet)? I'm trying to figure out just when this country stopped being free (assuming it has), and how it happened. I'm confused, though, and would appreciate your input. All I know is, I certainly don't feel free anymore.

[katsy]

1. Where's the all of the above selection?

:shrug:

[stellanoir]

2. this is really cynical but

I'd reckon that it was when the robber barons took over in the mid 1800's. Then it became an oligarchy.

We've only had faint glimmers of democracy since then.

We took a near fatal blow in December of '00. But the last election was the nail in the coffin.

It's funny that you posted this as I was just contemplating doing my first copycat post ever in response to all the "do you remember when. . ." threads.

I was going to write, "do you remember when we really had a democracy. . ." Then say, "I do only because I have some recollection of my past lives." Now I don't have to so thanks.

[orwell]

3. From the Beginning

The US was always set up as a federated republic. It has never been a democracy, by design, as the framer's feared mob rule and favored political power in the hands of the "landed gentry" or elite class.

It is today as it has always been, ruled by monied elites who use the term democracy as a marketing cover to keep the "great unwashed" docile and compliant.

It really is a brilliant system of mass control that totalitarians all over the world are slowly learning to emulate.

[12345]

13. ditto

[cestpaspossible]

4. In 1882, when corporations were granted personhood.

[cestpaspossible]

15. oops, I mean 1886

[necso]

5. The better question, perhaps,

is whether we ever really have been a true and full democracy -- or just a nation striving in that direction.

Here is Pericles speaking about democracy (actually about Athens as a (model) democracy):

"Our form of government does not enter into rivalry with the institutions of others. Our government does not copy our neighbors', but is an example to them. It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few. But while there exists equal justice to all and alike in their private disputes, the claim of excellence is also recognized; and when a citizen is in any way distinguished, he is preferred to the public service, not as a matter of privilege, but as the reward of merit. Neither is poverty an obstacle, but a man may benefit his country whatever the obscurity of his condition. There is no exclusiveness in our public life, and in our private business we are not suspicious of one another, nor angry with our neighbor if he does what he likes; we do not put on sour looks at him which, though harmless, are not pleasant. While we are thus unconstrained in our private business, a spirit of reverence pervades our public acts; we are prevented from doing wrong by respect for the authorities and for the laws, having a particular regard to those which are ordained for the protection of the injured as well as those unwritten laws which bring upon the transgressor of them the reprobation of the general sentiment."

Now, I am not going to say that this is the ultimate statement of what a democracy should be. And just like always, the ideals that men profess, and what their actual practises are, are often quite different things. But democracy is about ideals like those of Pericles' words -- and we quit making any progress on those types of ideals sometime under Reagan, I would guess.

[glitch]

6. I agree - hope for democracy in US went into PVS when Reagan took office.

Feeding tube removed 12/12/00.

[blm]

7. When the media joined with the GOP to impeach Clinton with NO CRIME.

Of course, the early beginnings were definitely in the cover up of Kennedy's assassination, IranContra and BCCI.

[deutsey]

8. I read a book by Walter Karp, "Liberty Under Seige"

that basically pinpointed the modern demise of democratic government after the 1976 election. It's been a while since I read the book, but I think Karp asserts that Carter was the first (and last)presidential candidate chosen by a more or less democratic process. There were reforms, apparently, after the '72 election that made the nominating process more open and reflective of the choice of a majority of voters, not those few in the stereotypical "smoke-filled backrooms" who had selected them before.

As such, combined with his "outsider" status, Carter represented a threat to the political establishment (i.e., Democrats and Republicans combined and the interests that support them). This establishment had also been weakened by popular opposition to Vietnam and disillusionment with the ruling class in general after Watergate. So, while the GOP and its backers launched a massive reaction against Carter, many in the Democratic establishment left him twisting in the wind.

I always thought it was an interesting argument, but I don't know how valid it is.

[MAlibdem]

9. It never was.

It's a federal republic.

Which is good, because pure majoritarian democracy infringes on basic rights. (despite what others may say about "monied" interests")

[Totally Committed]

10. This needs and "All of the Above"...

to get my vote.

TC

[Blue Christmas]

11. I would have included an "all of the above" option, but...

I ran out of options after the 10th one! (they only give you 10, it seems)

Also, while I agree that most if not all of the listed choices factor into the so-called death of democracy (assuming, now, that it did in fact die or that there ever was one in the first place!), I was more interested in getting a sense of when people feel the tide really shifted. i.e. Was there one major watershed event/blow that seemed to have more of an effect than others?

[skeptikal]

12. 1861

when Lincoln didn't go to congress for a declaration of war against the south.
BTW it has never been a democracy. We started out as a republic, much like Rome and have progressed much the same way.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

18. RW meme: Republic defines the state, democracy us the form of govt,

We are a Federal republic: are republics governed by representative democracy, in which the states play a crucial role.

[CrispyQ]

14. The fatal blow:

1886 - Santa Clara County vs Southern Pacific Railroad

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_accountability/history_corporations_us.html

One of the most severe blows to citizen authority arose out of the 1886 Supreme Court case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad. Though the court did not make a ruling on the question of “corporate personhood,” thanks to misleading notes of a clerk, the decision subsequently was used as precedent to hold that a corporation was a "natural person."

From that point on, the 14th Amendment, enacted to protect rights of freed slaves, was used routinely to grant corporations constitutional “personhood.” Justices have since struck down hundreds of local, state and federal laws enacted to protect people from corporate harm based on this illegitimate premise. Armed with these “rights,” corporations increased control over resources, jobs, commerce, politicians, even judges and the law.

A United States Congressional committee concluded in 1941, "The principal instrument of the concentration of economic power and wealth has been the corporate charter with unlimited power...." Owners and managers were responsible for criminal acts committed on the job.

===============

December 12, 2000 may prove to be fatal as well.

[BlueManDude]

16. December 2000. 5 thieves in black robes steal the presidency.

[bush_is_wacko]

17. Actually, I think it really stopped being a democracy during the Johnson

administration and has been deteriorating in increments since then. It is about as far from democracy as it can get now without actually being considered a theocracy! Johnson was the first president who was truly at war with the media, IMHO