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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 01:50 AM
Original message
"Religious conservatives have been hijacked by the Republican Party."
Chiat nails it in this article:

The Terri Schiavo saga has prompted yet another round of fears that the Republican Party has been hijacked by religious conservatives. The truth, however, is just the opposite: Religious conservatives have been hijacked by the Republican Party.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-chait1apr01.story

NGU.


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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Whats Bill Moyers Problem? The religious wrong has
Edited on Sat Apr-02-05 02:03 AM by Erika
taken over the GOP. Tax cuts for the rich paid for by service cuts to the needy. It's not really a secret.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. What on earth are you talking about?
Edited on Sat Apr-02-05 02:42 AM by ClassWarrior
What does Bill Moyers have to do with anything?

And who benefits from tax cuts for the rich? The fundies? Or the corporatists? Face it, the fundies are puppets of the corporatists. Haven't you read "What's the Matter with Kansas?"

NGU.


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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Then it would be the corporatists who have hijacked both
Edited on Sat Apr-02-05 09:11 AM by rman
the republican party and its religious base, or more accurately: a coalition of neocons and corporatists have done so, and they've also hijacked part of the Dem party.

on edit:
i should add there are two kinds of republican religious base: those on who the deception and manipulation works very well, those who fully believe the false profets - the fundies, and those who are along for the ride for as long as they vote for the Repub party in spite of not exactly agreeing with all their party stends for these days - that would be the moderates.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. True. The corporatists ARE the Republicon Party leadership now...
...and they've hijacked not just the fundies, but the once-traditional Republicons - that is, those who might once have been considered "moderates," except they too have sold their souls to the Radical Right Wing corporatists.

NGU.


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liberal43110 Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
2. That's a great article...
Thanks for posting.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
4. I love this
"I suspect that, behind closed doors, most Washington Republicans take religious conservatives for suckers. This has been evident from the Washington Post's recent revelations about GOP activist and lobbyist Jack Abramoff.

Three years ago, a casino-owning Louisiana Indian tribe called the Coushatta hired Abramoff to help stop another tribe from opening a casino, which the Coushatta feared would dilute their business. Abramoff hired former Christian Coalition director Ralph Reed, who enlisted Focus on the Family's James Dobson, who spurred his followers to send thousands of letters opposing the new casino. The poor souls riled up to stop legalized gambling had no idea that they were pawns of another casino. It's a perfect metaphor for the relationship between the Republican elite and the voters who put them into office."
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. And not even behind closed doors so much anymore
The whole Schiavo episode had one purpose, and that was to stir up the Loony Right Religionists. Randall Terry had the right idea when he scolded the Republican leadership for being so cynical and manipulative, but he and the rest of his ilk don't have the stones to do anything about it, and they will meekly follow the Republican leadership because they don't see any other way to maintain the illusion that they wield political power.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. Really?
from the article >>> "I suspect that, behind closed doors, most Washington Republicans take religious conservatives for suckers."


No kidding. Anyone watching the actions of this administration could easily conclude they aren't Christians. But then, there seems to be no shortage whatsoever of Christians who pay about as much heed to what Jesus said as I do of what they say.

Should Christians who support Bush**'s every move be exonerated from responsibility just because their motivation is their faith? I don't think so.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. Good article.
nt
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. .
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thanks for this article. I also think Steve Gilliard's distinction of the
the fringe freak elements of the RW fundies, which he calls "the Ultras," is useful in this discussion. It's THIS group that the neocons have teamed up with, and they are not only totally insane, they are utterly unforgiving about what they view as betrayal of their objectives. The pseudoreligious wackos that the GOP sold their souls to for power and money aren't the fundamentalists per se, they're the Ultras. It's an important distinction and, I feel, actually a basis for some hope. We may not be able to reach the Ultras with truth or logic -- they're extremist nuts by definition -- but the other fundamentalists are not as willfully blind. And a majority of all people identifying themselves as evangelicals DID oppose the government's intervention in the Schiavo case, as I believe I mentioned above (sorry, I didn't keep the URL of that poll). Here's one of the passages where Steve talks about the Ultras on March 27, during the Schiavo crisis:

http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/03/nanny-state-on-steroids.html
...We're not dealing with factory workers here, but ultras, the hard core. Ultra is a term used in European football to describe the diehard fans, the people who protest to fire a coach after a loss. Bush and Bush didn't jump into bed with the pro-life moderates, but the ultras, the hard core. These people are extremists and they expect to win. They aren't going to accept a good try. If you fail them, they will seek revenge.

I think Jeb got talked to Friday. When he was told about the polling and how being seen with Pat Mahoney was not smart. So he ran. The problem with ultras is that they are never pleased unless they get their way. And Jeb was close to committing political suicide on Thusday, maybe an hour away. If he had moved to grab Terri Schiavo, he wouldn't be worrying about impeachment, but a murder and kidnapping trial while he sat in custody and a massive civil suit. The unreality of people like Bennett and the NRO egging Jeb on was amazing. They didn't care about the consequences.

They thought 25-50,000 people would join them out by the hospice.

Ah, the delusions of radicals. They think the revolution is coming, it never is and if it was, they wouldn't be part of it.

(snip)
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Looks interesting... thanks for linking it.
NGU.


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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. That's awesome strategic thinking.
NGU.


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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I think it's important for us NOT TO DEMONIZE all religious conservatives
Edited on Sun Apr-03-05 12:49 PM by Nothing Without Hope
automatically. Yes, at times we just have to vent some accumulated frustration to each other, but the fact is, too many progressives have consciously or unconsciously simply written off a large segment of the US population as unreachable, closed, irreversibly insane, not worth talking to. I believe that's a HUGE mistake. We are ALL Americans and love our country and hate being lied to. Yes, some people ARE corrupt, selling themselves to the neocons for whatever seduced them, and some people ARE insane, the ones Steve Gilliard (and I've seen the term spreading to other blogs) calls the "ultras." But both of these groups are in the minority. Most of the true conservatives and even most of the self-described evangelicals, let alone most of the normal Christians of all kinds, are not only reachable if they hear the truth in a way that they listen, but in this crisis of our nation THEY ARE POTENTIAL ALLIES. By writing them all off contemptuously as Bush-loving wacko religious nuts, progressives make an enormous, crippling mistake. They're not all like the noxious freepers or the sigh-carrying crazies threatening judges.

In the Schiavo case, a March 21 ABC News poll showed that a majority of people describing themselves as evangelicals believed that the feeding tube should be removed and also that the federal government should not intervene. This poll, which asked these questions and gave the answers for a variety of religious affiliations, is summarized here (with links to the actual questionnaire and full results):
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/print?id=599622
Ruy Teixeira, in his March 30 "Public Opinion Watch" article for the Center for American Progress cites this poll and puts it into context with a number of others on related topics over the same time frame; his analysis is well worth reading:
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=486911
It should also be remembered that even if a person said in a poll that they believed the feeding tube should be kept and the federal government should intervene, this is not the same as being ready to storm the hospice. Jeb was really riding the wrong horse in this one.

We must talk to the non-extreme religious conservatives in language framed to reach them, but they do have powerful reasons to want the truth and to respond to it with opposition to the neocon cabal. Yes, once the criminals who have usurped this nation are gone, these "normal" religious conservatives will disagree with progressive views on many issues -- but that's democracy and has always been the basis of political discourse in our nation. The various sides on an issue elect their representatives and compromises are hammered out.

I have been very concerned at DU to see how often the people of "normal" conservative and religious views are dismissed and automatically taken as enemies who will never listen. I believe this is not only a mistake, but a mistake that can cost us a great deal as we fight to take back democracy and the rule of constitutional law for this nation. Should we expect them to instantly drop their conservative religious views? Of course not. But should we also expect them to be stupidly, perpetually blind to Bush's hypocrisy and to approve all the ruinous damage of his policies? I believe that this assumption is actually being made by all too many people who should know better. An American doesn't have to be a progressive Democrat to be a patriot.

I'm considering posting these ideas in GD-P. I've been very concerned at the division that is being perpetuated by some progressives who assume they share no common goals of any importance with religious conservatives or even "normal" Republicans. What do you think? Am I off in my perceptions of what people at DU are assuming?

And, on a more pleasant topic, good morning to you, CW! To cheer you, here's something I saw in the tiny local nature preserve 3 days ago - there were many signs of dawning spring.
http://tinypic.com/2k381g
Do you see why I immediately thought of this image as "Icebird"? I'm glad, with these difficult times, that it's not fall or winter or even late summer. I've started two threads in the KOEB group to help to lift our spirits. One of them is a thread to collect truly hope-inspiring news stories:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=315x1796
and one is to collect our photos showing the advance of spring:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php? az=view_all&address=315x2118
Please feel welcome to contribute to either or both. (And that goes for anyone else reading this as well, of course.) In this long, difficult, frightening struggle, keeping our spirits up is very serious business.

edited: mostly sp
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Hey NWH...
:hi:

I agree. The religious folks ain't the enemy. The corporatist criminals are.

Thanks for the links!

NGU.


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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Have I told you lately..
Edited on Sun Apr-03-05 10:42 PM by RevCheesehead
that I love you? :hug:

Thanks for the Lakoff goggles. They sure help, don't they?
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Awww...
:loveya: Rev Darlin...

NGU.


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Still_Loves_John Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
15. Great article
It's so easy to demonize Republicans as these crazy apocalyptic bible-beaters, but the true core of the Republican party isn't like that all. The republican party, first and foremost, supports the rich at the expense of the poor, but it knows that if it explicitly says that it would never get enough votes to do anything. They've discovered that by throwing out a few bones on social issues, they can get a huge group of people to vote for them who wouldn't otherwise.

The one thing I had a problem with this article on was that I think it slightly underestimated the power of Christian Conservatives. I agree that generally they are regarded as suckers, but the Republicans understand that they have to throw them a couple bones to keep them happy. Sure, the gay marriage amendment isn't getting passed, but there were tons of state gay marriage bans that passed on election day. The religious right is definatly getting played by the republicans, but that doesn't mean it has no influence at all.
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mim Donating Member (147 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
17. True, true
I have long believed that it's the moneyed interests who are orchestrating this whole Republican takeover, and they are using the religious right as foot soldiers. Mainly because the super-rich have so few votes; they need people whom they can sucker into voting the interests of the rich.

Alas, one of the friends to whom I forwarded the opinion piece didn't know who Neville Chamberlain was:(
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
19. My gut feeling is that certain people on both sides are using each other.
There are evil bushbots who are using religion to advance their own personal causes. Consider the blivet's response to the death of the Pope: he called him a man who advanced the causes of freedom. How narrow... and how insulting to people of faith.

I believe that there are religious opportunists who are also looking for ways to "get to the table." Obviously, Falwell comes to mind. But in my church (United Methodist), we are in the midst of our own "hijacking" by conservatives. These are the ones raging against homosexuality, birth control, and diversity.

But, for all that, I think that if you step back, an even bigger evil is behind it all: PNAC. :tinfoilhat:
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
20. They BOTH deserve each other. Both groups are greedy, vicious
and without conscience.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. But no, that's the point...
I think most rank-and-file religious folks are good at heart but badly misled by the corporatists. And I classify Fallwell, Robertson, and their ilk not as religious folk, but as corporatists. They use religion for their own selfish gain. Sure, it's likely that some of these Radical RW religious leaders are truly religious - and therefore truly psychotic, judging by the sick views that they hold - but most of them are just corporatist con men like Bush**, Fallwell, and Robertson.

NGU.


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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Really? That's why they put Bush in office and why they support anti-gay
and anti-choice measures? Sorry, but willful ignorance is no excuse.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Who are you talking about? The Radical RW or the voters?
NGU.


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Hidden Stillness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
23. These Religious Hypocrites Could Be OUR Salvation
I think if thoughtful Democrats go to the effort to think over some of these issues and think of them from different angles, they will realize that of the many levels of things going on here, this may be leading to a new era. Several things are starting to come together and rearrange in the world, and if we can get ourselves organized, as for example, Howard Dean is doing, things can finally start to turn our way again. The clues have been here on this website lately; several ongoing things that could be issues favoring us.

One part of this is that the Republican-invented alliance--so their neocon cabal could hide amongst it and enact their real agenda--has now started to totally break down, and where now, having failed and with no real popular support, it can only fade away. How will the conservative Christians react as they realize more and more that Bush and the other Oil Execs never had any intention of addressing any of their concerns, and never will? We should mention this, often. Part of the ordinary Christian's concern--the violent vulgarity of corporate media pseudo-culture, for example--is shared by everyone from feminists to corporate media critics, and could be a place of agreement. This would place us all against the corporate world, and Bush's crowd. We should find common ground where we can, and encourage division among the Repub pseudo-alliance where we can't. Most Christians are just as nervous about fundamentalism as non-religious people are, and we should restore the once commonplace distinction between the groups.

This is a new world, and we should not, and do not need to, present our own religiosity--if we have it--as some old '50s Republican stereotype of normality and conformity. The true ways of reaching a spiritual path are long, deep and complicated, and are not only more interesting than the phony spectacle of George "Gimme Gimme Booze Cocaine Money" Bush and the other "through the eye of a needle" hypocrites, but is almost always well-received by listeners. People are not given enough credit for how accepting they can be. Democrats who are not religious should learn the difference between a sincere person seeking the meaning of things, and a liar exploiting symbolism or quotations as props. This is a lot of where our moral persuasion is, and we are losing a lot by not unifying the constituent groups of our party. Attacks on websites such as this against Christians are so stupid, so embarrassing, that you wonder how these people stay so out of date. Gleeful attacks "exposing" Christian hypocrisy--funny, I thought every human being who ever lived was a hypocrite, and probably had other faults besides. There should be no tolerance for "theocracy," those who want to end the separation of Church and State, etc.--but most Christians agree!

We are being manipulated and controlled by the corporate owner of more elements or our society than has ever existed before--they write the laws, pack the courts, slander and destroy anyone they want, censor it all on their media, reorganize all the economies of the world--and if putting up a "sacred holy" blah blah front works to accomplish some immediate goal this time, they will use it, and throw it in the trash the next time. The ultimate was always the multinational capitalist behind it all, pulling the strings. Remember that the "anti-gay marriage" attack was cooked up by Republican strategists to get out their vote, and achieve their real end. It was no different from the "Terror Alerts" that would come up every time Kerry made a good speech before a huge crowd on the campaign trail. (Notice: No more "Terror Alerts.") There was therefore a distinction between any authentic religious expression, and a manipulated facade to achieve something else, a corporate end. We should be making more of a point of exposing the cynical corporate/Repub manipulation behind these things that masked as "religious trends," etc.

We should associate, publicly, the Republican Party with every extremist, anti-American fringe group they are, as a matter of fact, actually associated with, and remind people of the global corporate capitalist lurking behind everything they do. There was a recent thread here, suggesting that we should make clear the link between Republicans and their contributor "Rev." Moon, (Washington Times "news"paper, etc.). I have been wondering for twenty years why Democrats have not been attacking that alliance--is this not shocking to these people? With the Terri Schiavo tragedy and Repubs' weird power-grab attempt, their DeLay's apparently finally going down, their long support of anti-abortion terrorists, and all the rest, coupled with what I hope will be a re-acceptance of the philosophical mainstream of America--covering agnostics, atheists, deeply religious people, and slightly religious people--that we can re-emerge as the true center of this country, and Republicans be exposed as the threatening, always lying global-capitalist extreme that they are. Let's support Howard Dean, John Kerry, Teresa Heinz, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, Rev. Jesse Jackson, Wes Clark, Ted Kennedy, and all these great people, and save our attacks for THEM--Republicans. This is our country.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. .
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. .
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. .
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
29. Very interesting.
:hi:
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Isn't it, though?
:hi: molly...

NGU.


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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Heya!
:hi:

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