For non-Dean supporters ONLY

[Melodybe]

So have the last few days of Dean trampling made you feel any different about him?

If so what is the change?

[BeyondGeography]

1. It makes some of us put aside our

basic problems with Dean's ability to beat Bush, and compliment him on the undeniable "wake-the-fuck-up" factor he injected into this campaign.

We also fear his premature demise (at least I do) because it would restore the blow-dried order of things and make the campaign less rewarding to watch and, ultimately, less valuable.

But then we get called assholes by some Dean supporters for "pretending" to like Howard when we really "hate" him.

But I'm glad for your post.

[Forkboy]

2. Hasn't changed my views

I'm not crazy about Dean but I've felt all along that people were trashing him over stupid shit.I fully expected it from the right-wing but I am suprised at the level of vitriol from other Dems towards Dean.It's sad and discouraging,and has pretty much convinced me the Dems are a lost cause at this point.

None of the candidates are as bad as some would have us believe,nor are they as good as others would have us believe.

[TexasPatriot]

3. hrm

i thought he'd be a difficult case in terms of national electability before... i think he's a more difficult case now.

The interesting thing is - and i've seen this from a lot of Dean supporters - that to them Dean was just an embodiement of the movement. If that's the case, then the movement survives Dean's human foibles - and the idea of a large group of active democratic activist shock troops that will hammer a cause on a dime - that's something that really can be joined by ALL of the internet activist supporters of other candidates.

I'm not saying you can be coopted... i'm saying that, in the end, you guys and the other internet activist grassroots people from other campaigns really do have quite a lot in common.

[AP]

4. Honestly, it has distracted me from my problems with his policies

and made me focus on the problems with his personality, which is probably a good thing for Dean.

I never feel sorry for Dean when I'm hating on his policies, but I feel bad when I'm not liking him personally.

And I have a feeling that I'm not the only one feeling that way, so I think that this whole thing, in some perverse way, is actually helping Dean.

However, the ONLY time when it's helpful to have people feel sorry for you is when you need something to distract people from your terrible policies.

[blackcat77]

5. I started out supporting Dean

But it seems to me that he's not reacted well to the stresses of the campaign trail. I believed this *before* the events of Monday, and what happened then pretty much confirmed what I'd been thinking. With a political opposition as astute as the Bush team, you simply cannot afford to hand them any advantages at all.

(edited lousy spelling)

[youngred]

6. Not at all

He is not my first choices, but if he gets the nom I'll vote for him

[sandnsea]

7. No

Not a bit. And his debate tonight didn't change anything either. I just know how devoted people are and I didn't want to contribute to anybody's pain the last couple of days. But it's looking like everybody's bouncing back and attacking left and right. So I guess it's back to normal. For better or worse.

[isbister]

8. No

Nothing has changed, he continues to do what he's always done to make me believe he is not the right person for the job.

[Adjoran]

9. Not the trampling itself

But how he's handled it - pretty well so far, I think. That's a tentative plus.

I'm uncommitted, and I've been around long enough to know that it isn't getting knocked down that makes or breaks campaigns, it is how quickly they can get up and shake it off.

Every candidate runs into a stretch that could be disastrous. That's a given in politics. The most important thing is how he and his campaign handle the adversity. Some do well and recover to win, some don't and never get any traction again.

The jury is still out on that for Dean.

He has enough money and organization to survive, unlike, say, Gephardt. He was correct Monday night that if you offered him third in Iowa when he entered the race last year he would have been happy. If you told him then he would also have $25 million in the bank, he would have been ecstatic.

So the campaign can go on if Dean and his supporters can. It's a test. With the proportional representation in every primary, nobody is going to run away with it unless they sweep the Feb 3 primaries, and that seems unlikely. After that comes many states where Dean is only one who has really organized. If the campaign can weather a couple lean weeks, he could still win.

People were too quick to paint Dean a shoo-in last year, and I think they are too quick to write his obit now. We shall see. A lot depends on Dean and his supporters.

[maxr4clark]

10. It has confirmed my belief

...that no candidate is well-served by attacks on other candidates. You never know when a candidate is going to stumble or leave the race; and when he or she does, you want his or her supporters to feel good enough about the candidate that you support that they will consider supporting your candidate once theirs is gone.

I felt the same way when Gephardt bowed out, when Moseley-Braun decided not to continue, and tonight, when Clark stumbled.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

11. Yes.

I'm not as worried that he'll win the nomination as I was before. If fact, it seems unlikely to me. Of course I thought the country would never elect someone as obviously clueless as Bush so what do I know?

[Raine]

12. Personally I like him and

I like him even better now but I still don't support him and I think his elect-ability has been worsened since the media (unfairly) jumped on "the scream".

[beaconess]

13. It hasn't changed my mind much

but his reaction - after the first day - makes me feel a little better about him since this is the first time it's appeared that he's been willing to actually take a look at something he may be doing wrong and correct it.

I've been very frustrated in the past with his seeming inability to recognize, much less correct, any shortcomings, as well as what I think is an almost slavish devotion by some supporters that made it impossible for them to acknowledge even the slightest problem with the campaign. No matter what happened or how badly he performed, not only did they refuse to even consider that there was a problem, but they closed rank, circled the wagons and shot back at everyone who questioned him. But this incident was so over-the-top that even Dean and his more reasonable supporters had to step back and say, "Whoa, what are we doing here?"

I feel much better that, if he gets the nomination, he'll be better able to compete against Bush than he was before. I still don't think he's the best candidate, but if he can overcome the mortifyingly embarrassing reaction to his speec, this incident may, in the long run, make him a little better.

[Frederic Bastiat]

14. I always had a feeling he was unelectable

Iowa just confirmed that.

[HFishbine]

19. You may want to consider

that a third place finsish in a single state should not be the measure of a candidate's electability. Really, I don't think you want to establish that as a critera.

[blm]

15. Not me. I always went after him on issues I knew he was being deceptive.

But, I keep it in the political arena. I'm not interested in attacking anyone who others are piling on, especially the media.

Please recall here at DU, however, that for months the media was declaring Kerry's candidacy dead and many Dean supporters parroted that sentiment with little regard towards the feelings of others because they were "invincible."

[diamondsoul]

16. Not really as far as his candidacy-

I liked the damned speech myself, but hey, I've always said I'm a freak.

I feel badly for his supporters more than anything else. It sucks to have your man bashed on over stupid, trivial nonsense, and I know that all too well.

[emulatorloo]

17. No, I always liked him

and will vote for him if he is nominated. I was happy to see how well he did in the debate last night, and thought it was one of his best.

Has it changed how I view his positions? No.

[Zech Marquis]

18. sure did--now I don't support him at all

He's a punchline now, after all that hype, money raised, supposed front running status..he fel flat. And his WWF perfromance still makes him unelectable. I will give him credit for making the other candidates take on *, but that's it. He's done.

And the way some of his supporters have been acting here lately--calling anyone who doesn't support Dean a Green for example--and some of the most immature, spiteful, and freeper-like behavior led me to wash my hands of all things Dean. That was the last straw for me.

[LWolf]

20. No.

If you leave rabid supporters and deceptive campaign tactics aside,

I don't dislike Dr. Dean. I never have. I just don't think he's the best choice. And he and I don't see eye to eye on many issues. He'll have my vote if he wins the nomination.

[DJcairo]

21. He looks so wounded

And that is not the Howard Dean America's Democrats are used to seeing. My bet is this "new" Dean doesn't catch on. Frankly, I think, for all Trippi organizational/internet brilliance he should have realized that Dean needed to warm-up his image (the Sawyer interview with his wife should have been done weeks ago) and reach beyond talking about the process of the primary campaign and the money raised and alighted on amore substantial message. Had he done that, and not given that speech after Iowa, even a narrow loss could have worked to his advatage had he come back adn won in NH. Now, expectations are so low, that even a distant second would be seen as a victory but I'm not sure that really helps out on teh 2/3 states. While I can't quite believe it, I think he's finished.

As a disclaimer: I had completely given up on my guy Kerry just a few weeks ago and then Iowa happened. I'm still reeling from the events of the past week. I'm addicted to this crap. Damn, I gotta get back to work.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

22. I do feel a bit sorry for him and his supporters. It does make me question

Dean's electability a bit more.

[Jerseycoa]

23. I think he's made the right moves, as best he can

I think the hemorrhage may have been staunched. I'm glad for him and his supporters. I don't like to see any Dem go down that way and I am outraged that the media has irresponsibly and grotesquely magnified the whole thing as they have. But my basic feelings about Dean and my judgment that he should not be president are the same.

[plurality]

24. I definitly feel more sympathetic towards him

still don't know if i can vote for him, but with all the trampling from the media, i definitly feel bad for the guy.

[Iverson]

25. no difference

I'm pretty much on guard against mass media and propaganda. Sensationalist nonsense is easy to spot and discount.

[Bonobo]

26. I'm glad it happened now, rather than later.

I was a Dean supporter but I never thought he had the charisma to get elected. He just didn't "appear" presidential and I was always concerned that the he would lose the popularity contest that is a presidential election.
After his speech, my concerns were confirmed.
However I am glad that it happened now and not AFTER he wom the primaries and was head-to-head with Shrub.

[CWebster]

27. Thanks for echoing right-wing talking points

Wait til you see what they can do to any of them. Let it be a fair warning.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. I've never understood the enthusiasm for Dean

not even before I heard Kucinich speak, because the disconnect between his style and substance bothers me.

I could understand some of my fellow anti-corporate, progressive populist colleagues on this board supporting Dean because they thought he was "electable" (which I never thought) but if it turns out that he is damaged, whether by media attacks or his own inability to take the heat, then I wonder who really is "electable."

[mikehiggins]

29. I had no illusions about Dean from the outset

Possibly because I've been involved for decades but he never struck me as anything particularly noteworthy or deserving of a second look.

He did ride the cutting edge of Internet organising and fundraising to what appeared to be an overwhelming advantage during the primaries but look what happened when voters finally got a chance to ring in on what the pollsters and pundits had proclaimed an inevitable march to the top of the list.

Keep in mind that the famous speech came AFTER he had lost. The voting was done before he stepped out and handed Harkin his jacket.

All that being said, I don't get the speech thing except as a smear. He gave an oldfashioned barn-burner of a speech to energise and excite his volunteers. So what? If the TV cameras hadn't been there the world would little note nor long remember what he said (with apologies to A. Lincoln). Instead, the image was transmitted to all the people tuned in at the moment and it just looked bad.

It wasn't bad, as a matter of fact. You could feel the energy in the room and the excitement of his supporters even throught the TV screen. And the jackals pounced.

So, my opinion of Dean hasn't changed but it was unfortunate that a man who has shown such savvy dealing with the electronic age could forget, even for a minute, that the whole world was watching.

I do beleive this has killed his chances for the nomination and that is a shame. As a Clark supporter I would prefer we beat the other guys head to head in the ballot boxes, not by proxy through a TV image.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

30. No

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TWL

[dpbrown]

31. Recent events reinforced my conviction that Dean is a lesser candidate

I already knew that he was re-elected at 74% in 1992, but somehow he managed to drive that down to just 54% in 1998 and only 50.4% in 2000.

I already knew that under his leadership in Vermont both the progressives and the Republican Party grew while the Democratic Party floundered.

I already knew of all the elected positions Dean ever held in Vermont none are currently held by Democrats.

I already knew that Dean decided not to run for re-election in 2002 pretty much knowing that his Lt. Governor was going to get beaten by the Republican, and that he would have been beaten, too.

I already knew that Dean's legacy includes turning Vermont into a state governed by a Republican.

I already knew that Dean supported the Biden-Lugar Iraq invasion scheme so his "anti-war" stance was duplicitous at best.

And now I know that Dean's "reaction" to an unexpected loss is likely to be a little less than diplomatic. I don't care about the screech, or whatever. The real difference is between the gravity and positive focus the other candidates took after Iowa, and Dean's manic chanting.

That might play well with the angry folks that Dean's attracted to his campaign so far, but showing that face to the rest of the nation after the Iowa upset reinforced for me that Dean belongs at the back of the pack, not at the front where he's been.

Nearly any candidate running for the Democratic nomination would be a better standard-bearer for the Democratic Party (whether you favor a new Democratic Party or not), than former Governor Howard Dean.

Dean's latest antics don't prove that (because in the grand scheme of things they're not that important), but rather shade that a little darker shade of certainty.

Fear Ends
Hope Begins
Kucinich 2004

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[curse10]

32. No. I still don't like him

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