Dean just said (on CNN)...

[displacedtexan]

that his campaign was never about the war in Iraq; that the media had made it that way. Then he went on to list the things that his campaign was about: health care, etc.

I guess the media convinced me, not Dean, that he was the anti-war candidate?

[cthrumatrix]

1. The media tries to "polarize"...shrub right....all else wrong

[Khephra]

2. He's repeatedly said this

I guess you just didn't hear it.

[cthrumatrix]

7. I heard him ...and he was right...but he also stood for more than anti-war

[Rich Hunt]

38. he certainly has

...if you've been paying attention.

BTW, I was undecided until about a month ago. But I've been following the campaigns and reading the platforms as they came along.

I became aware of Dean because of his social policies.

[htuttle]

3. There were/are several candidates against the war

I think it was the media who declared Dean THE anti-war candidate.

Kucinich and Sharpton both showed up at far more anti-war rallies, however.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cthrumatrix]

14. are you a Liberman supporter...what's your bag?

[returnable]

33. Say what?

What's Lieberman have to do with this? Because I accidently left him off the list of IWR voters? :shrug: (I've since included him, by the way).

But this isn't about the IWR vote, anyway. I think I made my point quite clear - and looking through this thread, others agree.

Dean saying that he never played up his anti-war stance is a joke.

You obviously disagree.

That's why we vote :hi:

[sangh0]

41. Even some of Dean's supporters

know that Dean pushed his anti-war stance

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=167017&mesg_id=167017

[Fleshdancer]

40. Dean never said he was the anti-war candidate.

Yes, he spoke out against the Iraqi War, but he also said that agreed with the first Gulf War and the war in Afghanistan. Not exactly "anti-war" like the media likes to portray him.

[returnable]

46. And the Iraq War was what was being discussed

From the original post of this thread:

"Dean just said that his campaign was never about the war in Iraq; that the media had made it that way."

I happen to disagree with that assessment, and I've explained my reasoning :hi:

[Fleshdancer]

50. Actually, the thread is about whether or not the media led the

poster of the thread to believe that Dean was "anti-war". If Dean has admitted all along that he is not anti-war, then it would be fair to say that the media has been wrong for labeling Dean as anti-war.

I happen to agree with that assessment, and I've explained my reasoning :hi:

[cthrumatrix]

4. PLUS - The Kay report cames out today -- no WMD's....

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - David Kay, who stepped down as leader of the U.S. hunt for weapons of mass destruction, said on Friday he does not believe there were any large stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons in Iraq (news - web sites).

"I don't think they existed," Kay told Reuters in a telephone interview. "What everyone was talking about is stockpiles produced after the end of the last (1991) Gulf War (news - web sites) and I don't think there was a large-scale production program in the '90s," he said.
...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040123/ts_nm/iraq_usa_weapons_kay_dc

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. The problem with changing his campaign theme now

is that the American people want a leader, but not if the course he charts is constantly zig-zagging back and forth.

[cthrumatrix]

12. change his theme? media controls the theme...I guess others are

finding out.

Why don't you ask the Vermont people "what theme" he ran on as a 5 time govenor.

Dean is candidate with a record...not a theme.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

39. If Dean is letting the media define his theme for him, he's already lost.

As for Dean's Vermont record:

Vermonters see one Dean; nation quite another

In the early days of his campaign, Dean pumped up crowds by declaring that he represents "the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party," seemingly positioning himself on the liberal end of the party's spectrum. That has led many Vermonters to ask if this is the same man who was their governor for nearly 12 years.

Is this the Dean who preached fiscal responsibility to restive liberal legislators, insisting that state taxes be cut and holding down spending to balance the state's budget for 11 years? Is this the governor who courted out-of-state businesses to move here and fought environmentalists over development and pollution issues?

"He was to the right of many Republicans in the state," said Frank Bryan, a political science professor at the University of Vermont. "The Howard Dean that people are getting to know nationally is not the Howard Dean that we knew here."

Political observers, allies and foes recall the physician-turned-politician as a careful centrist in line with the "New Democrat" approach of the Democratic Leadership Council and former President Bill Clinton, both of whom Dean has criticized during his campaign.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0401220296jan22,1,479385.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed


Howard Dean: the Progressive Anti-War Candidate?
Some Vermonters Give Their Views

Howard Dean the liberal, anti-war candidate? The laughter rings most loudly in Vermont.

As Dean's candidacy caught fire over the summer, a number of articles have appeared on the net examining his history and current stance on important national and international issues. They all point to a Clintonesque Republicrat whose stances are not far from that of the current administration.

More: http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html

[Nicholas_J]

63. Try a recent Dean advert in New Hampshire:

http://www.bushout.tv/candidate_ads/

Where Dean is stated to have opposed George Bush's war in Iraq while other candidates were supporting him...the first article on the page gives links to the ads

[eileen_d]

6. Hmmm -

I would agree that Dean's campaign is about much more than the war in Iraq; however, it's a bit silly to deny that Dean's stance on the war in Iraq was not intentionally made a centerpiece of his campaign.

I think Dean and his supporters did make the war in Iraq a central issue of the Dean campaign, and this frequently worked to their advantage. The media did dwell on this a lot, but they're not solely responsible for that focus.

Edited for emphasis.

[cthrumatrix]

19. well I'm glad he has shared his views on all his issues ...I never knew

that having a multi-issue candidate "by the people" whould "piss off so many dems"

[eileen_d]

24. Are you replying to me?

I am not knocking Dean's multi-issue campaign, because I agree that he has one -- I'm just saying that some issues were emphasized over others, and not just by the media.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Seldona]

13. Agreed

What was the '500 dead soldiers because of them' type comment about at the debates?

I don't have the quote, but he said something along those lines.

Maybe he means it isn't what he wants to be defined by, I don't know.

But sure seems odd to me.

[XanaDUer]

15. And...

This is shameless. Yes, I remember the constant talk from Gov. Dean on the IWR, DESPITE the fact that he himself supported Biden-Lugar!

Having heard many fine Dem candidates being smeared by their support, supposedly, of the IWR, this is ridiculous.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

26. Yes, it is hypocritical of Dean to say that his campaign has little...

to do with the war in Iraq. It had ALOT to do with it. Wes Clark was smeared by Dean supporters because a RUMOR came out that he supported the IWR!

TOTAL B.S!!!!!

Dean is LYING when he says that his campaing has little to do with the war.

[beaconess]

56. That is the PRIMARY basis of his campaign

I bet that many of his strongest supporters hardly know the rest of his platform since, according to them, his anti-war stance is all that matters to them.

78. I'm a Dean supporter who knows his platform

& yet I'm anti-war. It's not all that matters to me though.

I'm continually surprised, although I should be used to it by now, at the inability of people to think of the gestalt, of the interconnections between things.

I see this from all camps, unfortunately.

I've been reading Martin Luther King's speech from the SCLC August 16, 1967 over several times the past few days and there's a particular statement he makes in it that has been really resonating.
It is just as needed a perspective today as it was when he said it.

"A nation that will keep people in slavery for 244 years will thingify them -- make them things. Therefore they will exploit them, and poor people economically. And a nation that will exploit economically will have foreign investments and everything else, and will have to use its military to protect them. All of these problems are tied together."

So, from my standpoint being anti-war is also about being anti-exploitative & being anti-exploitative is about being in favor of social justice, etc.

I'm not saying that this is precisely what Dean is saying, but I do think it is kind of silly to try to claim that Dean's campaign or Dean is one-dimensional.

[Casablanca]

90. Well said, 56kid

[cthrumatrix]

22. newsflash - Dean has more than Iraq for issues.... BTW take some time

and list your candidates issue...

get real...

[Zomby Woof]

35. I know he has more issues

But he is full of shit when he BLAMES THE MEDIA for selling him as 'just an anti-war' candidate. He helped them right along, just like in the debate last night.

THAT is where I have a problem with his lying.

His 'rehab' is more domestic-issues oriented, which means he has learned his lesson too late. All that money, and he doesn't know how to run for president.

[LiberalTexan]

94. With all due respect, Zomby

I heard Howard Dean speak in front of a crowd in Dallas, Texas in July 2003 and very little of his speech was about the war in Iraq. Dean has ALWAYS been focused on domestic issues. I can't believe you don't think the media is capable of pigeon-holing a candidate. I guess you think Al Gore "lost" because he is "stiff". That is what the media tried to feed us.

Really, I expected more open minds at DU. The media HAS made out Dean to be a one-issue candidate, no matter how many interviews or debates he is involved in where he talks about the budget and healthcare. I'm sure he's pretty tired of the media focusing on just that one issue....I know I'm certainly tired of the media trying to paint ANY candidate a certain way.

Let us decide for ourselves!

[Fleshdancer]

43. Post me the transcript of when Dean said he was the only "anti-war...

candidate".

For as long as I've been following his campaign, he has made it VERY clear for those with open ears that he was for the Gulf War and for the war in Afghanistan. Yes he spoke out against this war, but he never claimed to be "anti-war".

[Zomby Woof]

47. he was referring to Iraq only

No dispute there, but he laid the claim that he was the only candidate against the Iraq war until that debate (either in AZ or before) where he finally turned to DK and gave him credit too.

I have yet to see half the magnanimity in his supporters than I have seen in him, although that isn't much to begin with.

[Capn Sunshine]

73. Since your hyperbole outweighs the substance of Deans comments

He has said and we have pointed this out time and again ad infinitum : I was the only MAJOR candidate to come out against the war.

Sorry but Dennis is a minor candidate.

Certain poster's insistence on repeating this half truth like it's a Rush Limbaugh factoid in search of validation is getting rather annoying, it's disingenuous and counterproductive if not spiteful, vitriolic and disrespectful to others working hard to take things back from the machine.

[mikehiggins]

80. This is sad

Dean supporters now taking the position that their campaign was not based on opposition to the war.

I guess the Party has spoken.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

87. Having seen him 4 times,

95% of his speeches had nothing to do with Iraq.

That's just a hard, cold fact.


The largest portion of his speeches has had to do with the irresponsible tax cuts and their negative ramifications for social programs.

[On the Road]

9. Sure, He Decided to Run Before Iraq Was an Issue

Dean just seized the opportunity. He stood out because most other Democrats were waffling and compromising.

Dean's always been about fiscal conservatism and social liberalism. That's one reason I support him. To me, the war was a character issue -- do we want a candidate to defuse or to challenge?

[sangh0]

11. So when Dean called the other candidates "Bush*-lite"

it had nothing to do with their positions on IWR and Iraq. It was about the minimal differences in their health care plans?

[Capn Sunshine]

75. I always imagined it was a direct slam at Lieberman's

poseur attitude of pro war pro deficit pro everything * rhetoric.

It's Someone else's problem if they thought he was talking about THEIR candidate and would be indicative that maybe he was.

If the shoe fits and the key to the machine ignition turns...

[PROGRESSIVE1]

16. Dean took advantage of the anit-war Democratic base to....

help his campaign to get off of the ground. Dean used the war to rally support. Many of his supporters here at DU said that they supported him because he opposed Bush on the war.

:dem:

[eileen_d]

32. I agree

Thanks for being specific. What you have stated is absolutely true, not that I think it is a "BAD THING" for Dean to have rallied anti-war Democrats -- but to deny it is ridiculous!

[cjbuchanan]

17. What I have always heard him say

First off, I am still undecided, so I'm not a Deanie Baby or anything.

Anyway, I can remember Dean saying many times that his campaign is not just about the war or that it is not a one issue campaign. I did not see what he said on CNN, but this sounds very much like what he has been saying.

As far as anti-war, he has said many times that he is not anti-war, he is anti-war with Iraq. He did support the Afghanistan invasion and the first Gulf War. If any of us want a pacifist candidate, we need to look to Dennis or Al (I miss Carol).

Just my take.

[LuminousX]

18. Attempting to lead on multiple issue is not zig-zagging

Dean's campaign has been about more than the war. Hasn't anyone visited his website? Yes, prior to Iowa he put forth the war stance as a key issue (it isn't?) but now, realizing the voters aren't putting it high on their lists, he has decided to bring the spotlight to his other issues.

[Zomby Woof]

20. All part of his phony "rehab"

Ever since he got his ass blistered in Iowa, he has undergone the time-honored desperate practice of "re-inventing" himself, which always means "getting the campaign back to what it once was".

If the candidate ever drifted in the first place, it is the candidate's fault, not the media's. Dean is adrift, and his rehab is too little too late.

[LuminousX]

23. I guess the voters will actually get to decide that

But every candidate gets as many chances as they want. Thank god they do, or else Kerry would have been out of this a long time ago.

[Zomby Woof]

31. Kerry has YET to have a "reinvention" headline

Back from the dead, yes, which is a far sight better than a rehab headline, like the one I saw about Dean the other day, which was basically a "Dean has to re-invent himself". :D

Kiss of death, from this long time veteran of politics and media.

The voters have enough to choose from, without 3 or 4 Deans. ;-)

[Casablanca]

62. Back from the dead?

Neither Kerry or Edwards have yet had a solid "invention" headline yet. Edwards especially still thinks that he can fight the Bush administration with a flower in his gun and spouting glib generalities.

Glib generalities only works for defenders of the status quo. As Edwards is one of the authors of the Patriot Act, his current tactics are consistent with that.

[AP]

21. I said this a long long time ago. Last March, I wrote about listening to

Mara Liasson's first long story about the candidates. She talked about Dean being the anti-war candidate. She built it up so much. The last clip they had was Dean fielding questions from the media. He wound up with, "doesn't anyone want to talk about health care?" Silence.

I said then that Dean's problem is that he wasn't in control of his own message. Even if he got nominated, the media would re-write the script. By not being able to control his message last March, I thought it was proof that he wouldn't be able to rewrite the script EVER, especially when he would inevitably need to define himself as a winner rather that the loser the media would cast him as.

Rather than challenge the definition of him the media chose, and define himself as something that could win, he fought it for a week or two, and then rode that horse. He rode that hourse into the ground.

Dean is basically writing the obituarty for his campaign with this statement. His campaign today is no more about what he really wanted it to be about last March than it was then. Dean is not capable of defining himself. Look at your post, displacedtexan. Dean is trying to tell you want he wants to be about and you, a SUPPORTER, are resisting that definition.

No Democrat will be defined by the media as they want to be defined (only Bush will be granted that luxury by the media). But some candidates will be much better at framing their own personas than others. Dean, today, admits that wasn't capable of doing that.

[cthrumatrix]

28. well I guess since you are ani-Dean..I 'm shocked with your opinion

compare Dean's record...and what he stands for...

this constant attack on DU for Dean...I find this quite humorous.

He's in 2nd...what are you afraid of?

[AP]

44. This is how I got to be "anti-Dean" -- see how that works? You pay...

...attention to what the candidate is SAYING and DOING (rather than how you're feeling) and you think hard about it, you place it in an historical context, you think critically about the media, you ask questions. If you do that first, then you don't waste a lot of money and time propping up a candidate you're pretty sure to whom people won't respond.

Dean didn't come into the world, born to and entitled to my support. Repeated for emphasis: THINGS LIKE THE NPR/MARA LIASSON INTERVIEW FROM LAST MARCH ARE THE REASON I NEVER GOT ON THE DEAN BANDWAGON (and, mind you, that was supposed to be a POSITIVE story -- on the surface at least).

Dean could still come back. I'm not counting him out. But when I look at Iowa and the NH polls, and I read the story in the original post and see how people respond to it ("no, he IS about the war, regardless of what he tells me he's about!"), then I feel...well...justified in my conclusions from last March.

[cthrumatrix]

71. Dean takes stances on alot of issues.....you can pick and choose all you

want. His record was on his Blog from day one. The media "crowns him anti-war" and people like it...becuase the war divided many.

So get a grip...Dean shared his views based on what the media drove. He has a RECORD ...so go look at it and come back on how he screwed vermont.

And then go get the record of each candidate. Tell me what they delivered and what they wer "accountable for"...I can't wait.

You anti- Dean people amaze me. He stood up against the war...he speaks out on deficits, he speaks out on issues that maybe don't get the light of day.

So spare me with you and everyone else's stance on having more than one issue.

Dean get's painted by the media ...10 times a day...7 bad and 3 good. He get's more heat becuase he believes in what he says and he is not afraid to say things.

And for that....we shoot him...welcome to america.

[AP]

72. When Dean had attention of the media, he should have talked about...

...that record that's on the blog.

You can't expect people to go looking for Dean's persona on the web. They know what Dean (and the media) tells them. Dean and the media told people for months he was anti-war.

[cthrumatrix]

74. go read his site....understand all he has said and then come back and

share your thoughts on all the issues you have with Dean's positions over the past 5 yrs.. and tell me where your candidates record is better....thank you

[AP]

81. Even if I go read his site, 100 million people will vote next November.

Dean gets 600,000 hits a day today (Bush gets 6 million). Most of those people are the same people.

You can't win a campaign on two sets of ideas: the set that is good and appear only on your website and the ideas which are bad which you keep repeating every time you have a couple million people watching you on the nightly news.

As for comparing candidates, I do that almost every day here at DU.

[cthrumatrix]

82. so I will await your analysis...I want to see your facts...thank you

[AP]

91. What do you want me to do? A search of every post with "AP" "Dean" and

"Edwards"?

I'll tell you what, if you can take the time to post the issues you care about, I'll give you comparisons? How's that?

[Capn Sunshine]

25. The MESSAGE has always been " I want my country back"

The CONTEXT was that over our objections (and millions of citizens world wide), a war was being engaged to profit the war machine. So YES, Howard Dean was the ONLY candidate articluating this. But the campaign has ALWAYS been about taking back our government from the special interest lobbyists who currently write legislation, and the corporate interests that foster our dependence on petroleum products for energy.

[eileen_d]

29. Maybe the Dean campaign and Dean supporters

are about the things you say ("taking back our government from the special interests") -- I'm just not convinced that Dean himself is about that.

[RetroLounge]

Wahhh Wahhh Wahhhh

I see people here are still crying about Dean and the Media.

:cry:

Now what are your candidate's positions again?

[Frederic Bastiat]

27. I will repeat this again: Thank heavens for Iowa

We are really getting to know the good Doctor.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Frederic Bastiat]

66. Come to life?

That's a pretty weak comeback LOL

[JaneQPublic]

34. Is there a transcript available?

[displacedtexan]

48. There should be one soon...

or maybe tomorrow.
It was near the end of the program (Inside Politics), right before I posted the original message.
I was stunned. Dean's anti-war stance was the main reason I respected him.

[goodhue]

36. that's right!

and DK supporters have been saying that all along . . .

[Fleshdancer]

37. yep. Dean isn't anti-war.

He didn't agree with the war in Iraq, but it was the media who painted him as "anti-war".

[Nicholas_J]

42. The message was

that none of the other candidates were doing anything to try to oppose the Bush administration or its efforts which was pretty much a blantant falsehood, with the Democrats, including all of the candidates taking some of the most unprecidented actions in U.S. legislative history to block judicial mominations, and to weaken legislation that the Republicans were dead set on passing and would have passed in radical conservative extremeness had not the "Washington Insiders" blocked such extreme measures, including reducing the 2nd set of Bush tax cuts from 1.2 trillion to 350 billion. They could have all voted against the 1.3 trillion rather than attempt to reduce that sum by getting the support of people like McCain behind them to reduce the cuts. Otherwise Bush would have had an unstoppable 1.3 trillion in tax cuts in 2002. Same thing with the IWR. Bush had more than enough support to pass legialtion that would have given him the authority to go to war in Iraq without going to the U.N. or bringing in inspectors with the simple support of the Republican Party that he had prior to the resolution. It was Democrats who moved to attept to require him to get international support and provide proofs of WMD's before attacking Iraq. His decision to do an end-run around those restrictions in the act have nothing to do with the Democrats or their votes.

But anyway, from the first day of the vote , Dean misrepresented this vote, using terms such as giving Bush a "Blank Check for War" and so on, so this is such a shameless attempt to flip flop that I sincerely hope that the media goes back and reminds the public exactly how many times Dean gave speeches in which Iraq was the major issue and how often he attacked the other candidates on their stances.

That with the, feel sorry for me because the "media is picking on me" is the stuff great presidents are made of.

[displacedtexan]

49. Brilliant analysis!

I'm humbled by your post.

[AP]

51. Dean's looking at the Iowa poll resulst and seeing that being anti-IWR is

a liability. He's trying to redefine himself.

Problem is, he's supposed to be the principled guy.

Another problem, you can't change your identity a year into the campaign and expect people to think they still know you.

[beaconess]

58. I don't think that being anti-IWR is a liability, it's just not a big

issue anymore. Voters are looking for more from their candidates and Dean is realizing that putting his eggs in one basket may not be the way to go.

[AP]

60. Hitching 90% of your persona to that peg was a mistake. You're right,

it's not a liability to be anti-IWR. It's a liability, however, if most of your identity hinges upon something most people rank very low on their list of concerns.

[Frederic Bastiat]

61. Dean refused to hedge

Folks in Iowa seemed more concerned about the Economy, jobs and healthcare.

[AP]

64. And they were probably offended to hear the candidates who seemed to

really care about those issues criticized by Dean on issues that were much lower in priority.

[Nicholas_J]

77. True

Dean is really becoming pathetic....falling back on the feel sorry for me because I am after all only human. Warts and all. Yeah thats the ticket. the sympathy vote. If anyone had spent any time at a Dean rally one would know that that scream and that behavior was a rather usual Dean performance when he at a rally of his own supporters, and then compare that to the toned down behavior he displays at debates.

In the end, when your party is in the minority, you have two choices, to either weaken the other party's legislation ot to let it all pass in its full intent, and let it have its negative effects for the next several years until you finally get that party out of office,and then spend the next five to ten years trying to undo all of the stuff that got by unscathed, while the opposing party tries to weaken your attempts to undo all of their program cuts and tax cuts.

Ther is smart legislating and stupid legislating.

Dean had no moral problem supporting Republicans and opposing Democratic legislation while he was governor in order to try to push through his fiscal coservatism which was opposed by most of the Democratic Party while he was governor...


Those who know Dean say he’s no classic liberal
By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer



...Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee...

...To the anger of more liberal members of his own party, he insisted that the tax increases be rolled back on schedule and then went on to work for additional tax cuts later in his tenure...

...Rivers blames Dean for helping a third political party to flourish in Vermont that many say siphons votes from Democrats. "The Progressive Party gained some momentum during his years as governor because he was so conservative," Rivers said, although she said she still may support Dean for president...

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may_03/may_19/news/reg_vt0519a.asp

Dean,as noted, had absolutely no problem opposing his own party, and siding with conservatives in order to get his agenda passed, which was highly conservative, and more in line with the policies and platforms of the Vermont Republican Party. So much that whild Dean was about to flounder in the 2000 elections due to loss of support from liberal and progressives because he fought the Progressive and Democratic Party's preferred solution to the issue of allowing gays to marry, opposing the legislation put forth by by a co-alition of Democrats and Progressives in January of 2000, and which had enough support to pass, as the liberals in the legislature decided to hand togetther on the legislation, rather than hanng apart, figuring that if they all fought for gay marriage as opposed to civil unions, they would make less likely targets in the next elections.

Dean opposed the legislation:

Opening Day Demonstration

Early assumptions following the Court’s December 20 decision were that domestic partnership is the only real plan of action. Governor Howard Dean has said on several occasions that he would support domestic partnership legislation, but is uncomfortable with the idea of actual gay marriage. Dean has recently clarified his position, declaring in a radio interview, “I’m against gay marriage.”

“Dean is out of touch with folks. I’m pretty sure that separate but equal isn’t going to fly,” said Judy Sargent of Marshfield, VT. “We should save ourselves a lot of trouble and time and just make it marriage.”

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/feb2000/news_centerstage.htm

The opening day demonstrations refers to the day that the legislation was presented, and this legislation was for gay marriage, not civil unions. Deans initial statement on gay marriage was that he was uncomfortable with it. By the time of that the legislation had gotten through the legislatiure to be snet to the judiciary comittee, Dean came out much more firmly against the Democratic Party and the Progressiv Party stance, and stated he opposed gay marriage, which in essence, gave conservative elements in the legislature the impetus to atack the legislation and tear it apart in comittee.

There were many times that Dean opposed the majority of his party, and stood with, as well as courted Republican support in order to defeat his own party. His re-elction in 2000 was a prime example of this:

Some Republicans back Dean
By TRACY SCHMALER Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER - Democratic Gov. Howard Dean got a boost from the other side Thursday when a group of prominent Republicans turned out to support his re-election bid...

Even Dean acknowledged that his fiscal policy was the common ground he shared with the nine men and two women at the table, most of whom admitted to voting for Dean in the last election.

The group, known as "Republicans for Dean" represents the first organized GOP endorsement for Dean in any of his five campaigns...

Gilbert, a former member of the late Gov. Richard Snelling's administration, said he took the initiative to form the group, which boasts a membership of more than 30 moderate Republicans from around the state who back Dean...


http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/repbackdean.html


The Gilbert mentioned, was William Gilbert who was the Republican Energy Indistry Executive who sat on Dean's secret energy task force which has just recently been made public:

Dean had own secret energy group
Candidate criticizes Cheney task force for secrecy
Sunday, December 28, 2003 Posted: 9:12 PM EST (0212 GMT)



WASHINGTON (AP) -- Democratic presidential contender Howard Dean has demanded release of secret deliberations of Vice President Dick Cheney's energy task force.

...One co-chairman of Dean's task force, William Gilbert, was a Republican Vermont lawyer who had done work for state utilities. At the time, Gilbert also served on the board of Vermont Gas Systems, a subsidiary of Hydro Quebec...

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/28/elec04.prez.dean.energy.ap/

This enough to indicate that Dean had no problem dealing with Republicans as governor?

[Casablanca]

89. So what if Dean _is_ only human?

He isn't asking for anyone to feel sorry for him. He's correctly stating that this is a positive quality for a presidential candidate. Without actually apologizing (which he should absolutely not do because he has nothing to apologize for) or going ballistic on the newest attempt by the DLC and mainstream media to marginalize him (which would just play into the "now watch that temper, Dean" media scam), this is the best middle-ground message. And it has the virtue of being the truth.

Standing apart from his own party when it's necessary is the main reason people support him, and that the current Dem so-called leadership is so assiduously attacking him. But when it came time to payback his corporate donors, Clinton (the DLC's own sainted golden boy) had no problem at all ramrodding NAFTA over the protests of most of his party members. Edward's own voting record strongly suggests he' a Zell Miller (or at least a John Breaux) -in-training.

Your articles prove what Dean has always claimed - he's a maverick within his own party, a social progressive, and a fiscal conservative. An excellent combination of qualities at this time.

And I would advise anyone whose main voting issue is going to be gay marriage, or those who can't discern whether they're voting for Gilbert or Dean, to stay away from the polls. The electorate is far smarter without their participation.

[Casablanca]

54. Stop playing Rove's game

Folks, Dean's candidacy has always been about being anti-Bush. Bush has defined his administration's identity closely with war - war on terrorism and the Iraq war.

So to be anti-Bush you have to be anti-war.

Those of you indulging in all of these distinctions without a difference are making a bigger statement about your own characters than the character of Howard Dean. Which can be summed up as - "sunshine soldiers".

And the media _is_ picking on Dean ... as a psyop against all those terrified of negative media coverage. It's disappointing to see how effective that tactic still is against Democrats.

[AP]

59. Nixon was defined by Vietnam. Being anti-Vietnam screwed McGovern's

campaign. Johnson was defined by Vietnam. Republicans thought they had him by the balls. Johnson dropped out and RFK would have won had he not been assassinated.

Being anti-the thing your opponent has total control over is not smart.

You have to be pro-things that are really powerful, over which your opponent has no control.

[Casablanca]

83. Check your history

Being considered by liberals to be too liberal to be electable screwed McGovern's campaign. Johnson's candidacy and presidency was defined by being anti-Vietnam, by ending it "with honor". When he proved that he couldn't deliver on that promise, and that the problem was beyond his ability to solve it, he opened the door to Nixon and RFK.

And do you really believe that Bush has total control over the fallout of the Iraq war? If so, you must not follow the news much.

Dean is pro the anti-Bush/anti-corporatist statist cause. The question is up to us to resolve how really powerful (i.e., uncompromised by political secondguessing) that is.

[AP]

96. I disagree.

Nixon did two things before the 72 election which made a huge difference: he said he was going to end the draft, and he acted like he was going to end the war altogether.

He took out a big chunk of the youth vote which was more interested in the draft than in anything else, and he made people think twice about the opponent who staked his identity on being against the war. This isn't just my opinion. This is from DU'ers recalling that election. I just put the pieces toghether.

You know that during the watergate trial, there were memos that were in evidence that showed that Nixon was trying to encourage anti-war protests. He was trying to make opposition to the war the foremost issue in peoples minds. Why? Because he was in charge of the war, as commander-in-chief. He had his hands on the rug and he pulled it out from underneath the Dem's feet.

Chicago -- '68. There was so much hatred towards Johnson (and the party) over the war, LBJ couldn't run again. If not for Vietnam, he would have run and won. Had he run, he would have lost. You think he wasn't taking one for the team when he pulled out to let some new, untainted blood take a swing?

I don't think Bush has total control of Iraq. I think he has total control of the media. The media will tell whatever story Bush needs to win. I think it'll be a little more than what Nixon did.

As for Dean being anti-corporatism, my feeling that he isn't enough is one of the reasons I don't support him. His education plan isn't anit-Wall St. He basically said that he'll balance the budget even if he has to give away money to Bechtel and Halliburton to do so when he spoke in favor of the 87 bil Iraq allocation.

[ScreamingMeemie]

45. Can I just interject that we are still at war?That this is still a viable

issue for the candidates? That the candidates still have to question this loudly?? I want our troops back and if we allow Bush to sweep this all under a civil unions/economy rug that won't happen anytime soon?

Thanks,
Laura

[AP]

52. Dean did question it in Iowa. The public was NOT receptive and gave 81% of

the vote to the three candidates Dean most vigorously criticized for the their IWR votes.

Dean is trying to jettison this identification people have attached to him in order to win NH.

[ScreamingMeemie]

53. After watching that caucus...I don't think they voted issues for the

most part at all. Actually, watching that caucus made me realize that, in Iowa in particular, it's just one big ole popularity contest among the caucus holders. I don't think we'll see what the position of the voters is until we hit some primaries. :shrug: Sorry.

[AP]

55. Exactly. Nobody at Iowa caucus I watched even mentioned it.

I didn't hear once when Kucincih/Dean people talked to Edwards/Gep/Kerry people about switching any mention of Iraq. This is with practically 24-7 media on war, and NOBODY thought it was important enough to persuade anyone over that issue. People talked about electability and economics. Some Kerry supporters clearly loved the fact that he's a vet. But Iraq didn't look like a concern.

I suspect IA has a lot in common with NH (another popularity contest?) because Dean is, as I said, trying to minimize the anti-war angle, and maximize his earlier themes from a year ago: health care (which are quasi-ecnomic themes).

[beaconess]

68. I think most people see the war vote as distant history

and have the attitude, "we're there, whether it was a good idea, or not. So what are we going to do NOW?" And Dean has not distinguished himself from any of the other candidates on what to do in Iraq now.

[Casablanca]

85. If so, then most people are wrong ...

The war would have been far less likely have without the support of Kerry's, Edward's and Kucinich's votes.

Past votes matter more the current rhetoric.

Based on past experience, all it would take for any of those three to change their opinions is new propaganda. "There are reports that the Hezbollah might attack us? Well that's different!" They could just be lied to the way they were the first time, and who cares whether they discover the scam after the vote? The damage is done.

Dean correctly and consistently attacks the fear mongering itself, and those who've supported it in the past. He speaks for foresight, not 20/20 hindsight.

[AP]

92. Actually, voters in post-caucus surveys said Bush would have gone in even

without those Dem votes. Go figure.

[dweller]

98. ??? what Kucinich vote are you referrring to???

please enlighten us.

dp

[goodhue]

67. right on!

bring our troops home!

http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/

[dweller]

88. Mrs.G, you are correct. It is still a viable point.

"This is the beginning of the campaign," said Kucinich. "We've got 49 states left to go. The media had long
ago predicted the winner of the entire process and even the loser of the general election, and tonight's
caucuses have the pundits scratching their collective scalps in bewilderment. I moved from ninth place to fifth
and won delegates despite the 15 percent threshold."
"The longtime poll leader dropped to third, which some pundits are erroneously crediting to Dr. Dean's status
as an anti-war candidate. Dr. Dean did not consistently oppose the initial stages of this war and he has said
that he will keep our troops in Iraq for years."
"As I climb higher in New Hampshire and each successive state, and as the situation in Iraq continues to
worsen, Democratic support for peace will be reflected in my campaign's success."
This Will Go to Convention
and
"The Democrats forfeited a chance to regain the House in 2002 because party leaders supported this war,"
said Kucinich. "We will forfeit the White House this year if we take the same path. Voters will not turn out for
a Democrat unless the Democrats offer an alternative to the Republican agenda. All of the other candidates
in the Iowa Caucuses are forfeiting to Bush the debate on what should be the central issue of this campaign.
Bush wants to leave our troops in Iraq for years, and so do they." snip
"Other Democrats join the Bush Administration in explaining that 'We can't cut and run.' I say we can't
continue the damage we are causing and cannot begin repairing it until we withdraw our occupying army." snip
Kucinich is the only candidate who voted against the Iraq War and the only one who has offered a plan that
would replace US troops with UN peacekeepers over a 90-day period. (emphasis mine)
Dems Risk Forfeiting Election Over Iraq Occupation
Dr Dean now wants to seperate himself from the war issue...comes as no suprise. IMMEDIATELY after the Iowa caucus, it was spun that the war was not important as thought. It is, and it will be in the election.
peace,
dp

[PopSixSquish]

57. I'm Sorry...

I have stayed out of these threads for many months since I have always focused on the positive for all our candidates. However, I have seen thread after thread after thread on this forum by some (note the use of that word) Dean supporters claiming that Dean is the only anti-war candidate, the only one who was against Iraq, the only one they would vote for since he was the only one who was anti-war.

Only one, only one, only one. This was never true, but that's beside the point now. Dr. Dean said it, his supporters said it, the media said it.

Now Dr. Dean goes on CNN and says that this is all the media's fault? He said it repeatedly. He beat his opponents over the head with it. His ads said it. His brochures said it. But the media is at fault?

Nevertheless, I will vote for Dr. Dean if he becomes the nominee because I still believe that he, along with all our candidates do have good ideas about the direction our country should be headed.

But to deny one (again note the use of the word)of the main themes of his campaign for months, shows him to be another politician just like the rest of us.

Welcome to real life, wear a helmet.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

65. Heh. Who'd have thought?

Nice post.

[maddezmom]

69. he spoke about IWR last night at the debate.

and brought up the deaths of our service men. I know it's not Dean's only issue, but he made it part of his campaign mantra.

[Oreegone]

70. Yeah Dean

Howard must be doing well again....cause everyone is getting nasty again.....GO DEAN:toast:

[AP]

76. It probably has more to do with all those Dean supporters posting critical

threads on other candidates yesterday and Wed. That was a surprise. It proved that Dean was relevant so long as Dean supporters felt it was worth comparing and contrasting Dean to the other candidates.

[w13rd0]

79. No kidding...

...it's pretty funny. Especially after this mornings love fest. hey, that's all cool. I'm not going to level personal slams about irrelevant trivial bs, but pointing out differences on issues is cool. Dean is correct, the media coverage of the Democratic candidates has been HORRID, in regard to ALL of the candidates. And it will continue to be HORRID.

[reprehensor]

84. July of last year...

My wife and I saw him give his stump speech in DFW, and the focus was clearly on social issues, balancing the budget, being a counterpoint to Bush, not being Republican-lite, giving the Democratic party meaning. Yes, he did mention that he was against the invasion of Iraq, but he did not incessantly dwell on it. He also mentioned that he supported the invasion of Afghanistan, that war made sense to him. In fact, I was expecting him to harp on Iraq much more than he did, because he was the 'anti-war' candidate. The media told me so.

For a crowd of around 1,000 he put out enough energy and POSITIVE vibe to invigorate 10,000. The man does have stage presence, but he also has a message, a good message, and I wish the people of New Hampshire would give him a fair shake. I thought he handled himself well on the debate last night, hopefully NH thought so too.

Plus, he had the guts to make fun of himself on Letterman last night. That was classy.

[Ramsey]

86. As a person who attended my first Dean speech a year ago

I'd say that Dean has repeatedly and consistently talked primarily about domestic issues. He has always said he entered the race certainly not expecting to win the nomination but to highlight the issues of health care and early childhood education.

Look, Dean didn't think he'd win, and so he could say what he really thought. When Bush invaded Iraq, was a presidential candidate supposed to ignore it? Hardly, he had to comment on it. So he said what he believed, that he was against the war, which so were 99% of DUers by the way. He said it when it was highly unpopular knowing it could kill his candidacy.

I interpret that as honesty and courage in his convictions. That the war went all wrong and has come back to haunt Bush was hardly a given. When that did happen, it made Dean look prescient for a time. But he was simply stating his beliefs.

Furthermore, if you look at Dean's policy positions, he is NOT "the anti-war candidate". He's not a pascifist after all. He has repeatedly said he supported the Afghanistan conflict to oust the Taliban. He has said that he would use military force in the defense of the country when necessary. He is simply against this Iraq invasion, based on lies and deceit and unilateralism. So are about 99% of DUers.

And by the way, in that first speech I heard Dean give, he talked about health care, affirmative action, civil rights, jobs and education. So, no, his campaign was never all about the war in Iraq. And yes, the media has simplistically protraye dhim as "the anti-war candidate"

Edited: typo

[snyttri]

93. He's talked about the IWR in too many debates be convincing now.

Someone could have a field day showing all the the network logos over which he has condemned the other candidates for their real or alleged war support.

[Schmendrick54]

95. Does the term "false dichotomy" ring a bell?

Not that I expect it will do any good, but here are my observations:

1. When a candidate says "my campaign was never about X" that is usually shorthand for "my campaign was never EXCLUSIVELY about X".

2. Several Dean supporters have testified that Dean's campaign speeches have covered a wide range of issues.

3. In the early campaigning and debates, the one topic that got media attention was Dean criticising the war, and the IWR.

4. Three months ago most people could not name ONE Demo candidate.

5. Most people who had heard of Dean knew him as the "anti-war candidate."

I believe Howard Dean is saying he wants people to look at other issues (in addition to the Iraq War) in order to evaluate him. I don't see how that contradicts the fact that most people only know of him as the anti-war candidate. I don't think he is suggesting that he has never said he was against the Iraq war (although he frequently reminds people that he is not "anti-war".) He is just saying that his campaign is about more than that. And he has been talking about other things for a long time. I know. I have heard him.

Just my perspective.

Regards,
Schmendrick (whose recent flurry of posts was never about getting to 100)

[AP]

97. Why should avg voters have to go listen to full stump speech to have to

reduce Dean's campaign down to a paragraph describing what it's about?

Either the media is defining it in a way he can't control. Or he has to fire his advertising team, because they're putting out the wrong message, Or he has to get a new speechwriter. Or he was trying to make it about what you think it's about (being against the war).

None of the those four possibilities is good news for Dean.