I've got my tin-foil suit on and I need to throw out this theory...

[CoffeeCat]

Yes, I know this may be one for the tin-foil hat club, but I just have to ask.

Does anyone ever get the impression that neocon, warmongering, corporatist evildoers--on both sides of the aisle--have taken over the government and are playing all of us?

I am starting to wonder if everything we're seeing now (wars, the deficit, the cutting of social programs, the neocon PNAC agenda coming to fruition) is being propagated by both sides that volley power back and forth to each other--in some loosely shared agreement. The liberal/conservative infighting that goes on? That seems like a cover to keep the masses divided, powerless, whipped up into a lather--and motivated enough to show up at the polls.

The Republicans have their religious agenda (abortion, anti-gay), that motivates the base and helps to win elections. The Dems have their progressive issues (pro-choice, peace, social responsibility, environmentalism) that motivate our side. Although both Reps and Dems pay a lot of lip service to their partisan issues--I don't see a lot of progress on the core issues of either side.

Most of the progress made in the past decade has been on the warmongering, America-as-dominator PNAC agenda!

Again, I'm aware that my tin foil is on--but the past decade has seem scripted. The Reps seemed to salivate at a Kerry run, and Kerry was the nominee. The feared Dean and Clark. It almost felt as if the Reps--through the corporate media--were as responsible for Kerry's candidacy--as the Dems were. And Hillary running--does anyone else get the impression that the corporate media and Republicans--are all bucking for her nomination? Hillary and Bill seem enmeshed with the Bush family. How can it possibly be that the Clintons could spend one nanosecond with those evil, sick psychopaths? They should be out lambasting their ever move--but we hear practically nothing from them. It's very, very bizarre.

It all feels staged to me. I sense that powerbrokers on both sides are cooperating and keeping each other in power, and that the Dem/Rep parties really are meaningless.

I sense that our democracy is gone.

[Erika]

1. and they've sold us down the river to be a 3rd country?

Hugo, Dickens, and Zola. With the average Joe/Jill too tired from trying to make a living to see the coming impact.

[losdiablosgato]

35. I came to that conclusion three years ago.

[mattclearing]

2. You don't need tinfoil to draw that conclusion.

Just eyes.

[blogbear]

18. That's true but tin foil seems to throw back a reflection that helps

someone see who might not of the first time looking at it..

[Horse with no Name]

3. I don't think you need a tinfoil hat

I've wondered the same thing.
It's a perverse show--flaunting all the wasted money and lives in front of us.
I believe they WANT us to rise up against them so that they can declare martial law.
I have had bad feelings for some time now.

[Last Lemming]

4. The worst moment was when

Kerry took a fall. Suddenly there was no honorable party of opposition anymore. And now it's just stayed that way. We're going to war with Iran, IRAN, for Christ's sake and it seems that the Dem's are patting themselves on the back for winning 5th place at the dog show. It's not just that the power elite have things totally under control--it's that they are totally out of control. We are going to be being swept away and we are taking half the earth with us. We are at war with the world and nobody can stop it.

[Last Lemming]

9. nobody

seems to want to stop it

[Nimrod]

5. If that's tinfoil

I'm wrapped up in it too. Hell, I buy in bulk now.

And I agree with Horse With No Name - Every day I wake up expecting to hear the term "Domestic Terrorist" being touted. That will be the start of martial law and the rounding up of ALL us evildoers.

[icehenge]

6. The possiblity of these presidents

Bush
Clinton
Bush
*Clinton

Makes me wonder also, its all very strange if you ask me.

[alittlelark]

7. Logical Conclusions in my frame of reference.

-sigh-

[mirandapriestly]

8. I'm with you on Hillary

I have suspected that she is being put up by the Republicans as they pretend to despise her. Faux News, etc... talks about her as a given for the next election and it seems very scripted. I don't trust that one at all.

[Virginian]

30. Why does everyone keep saying she is running when she hasn't?

There has never been any kind of statement or announcement about Hillary running in '08, just as there was no statement or announcement about her running in '04. So why is she such a candidate?
Are we all being manipulated by MSM to believe that just because they run polls and her name is recognised above a lot of other people that she should run or will be running for President in 2008?
Don't count on the polls they run, at this point, it is purely name recognition.
I think she should quietly sit back and make fools of all those who speculated and I think she, like Teddy Kennedy and all recognizable names in our party should get out there and get a good Democrat elected in 2008. This mess Bush has created won't clean itself up.

Get the national debt paid off, get Americans employed again, fix the tax loopholes for the wealthy, bring back social security, bring back the fairness doctrine in broadcasting, invest in America, end the endless war and make America great again.

[enough already]

32. Carville on Meet the Press

Carville seemed to all but confirm that she's running. More of the same DLC BS, if we let it happen.

[Donna Zen]

34. She is running already

...and the party expects that it will Hillary on the ticket. It takes $$$$$$ to run and I would think that the party/clintons can shut off that tap at any time.

Maybe that's why they never do anything about the money, because it gives "them" control over the process.

[Jackpine Radical]

47. Carville is an opportunist, just like his wife.

They work opposite sides of the street, and they come home and laugh at the suckers.

[Castilleja]

10. None of this would surprise me

I agree with the thought that everything is scripted. I wonder who you would find at the very end holding the reins to all this?

[Gelliebeans]

11. okay so I'm kinda donning a suit myself

but the last few statements you made regarding Bill and Hillary do seem to have some merit. I have seen in the last month and a half different repuke talking heads saying how hard it would be to run against Hillary and basically building her up for election 2008 (for whose benefit I am not sure :shrug:)

As for big dawg to be smoozing with poppy bush and BFEE, I will just say that I am concerned.

Don't flame me please I get all crispy like a burnt marshmallow.

[BigBearJohn]

17. I love your kitties.

[Gelliebeans]

23. thank you

i love them too :loveya:

[neverenoughtinfoil]

12. I think you're pretty much spot on, Sparkles

As my user name implies, I'm inclined to entertain a lot of "tin-foil" theories-cuz with these assholes, it may actually be hard to take it too far. Your theory explains why Kerry was so lame, and why even the Dem primary felt fixed from the beginning when Kerry was an unknown-primaries tend to be largely about name recognition-yet Kerry was pretty much unknown outside his state and was also really fucking lame. Something was up-Skull&Bones/gentlemen's agreemtn, perhaps? Also, I think the lack of progress on the part of the religious right with their abortion/gay obsessions is so that they will keep thinking they have to support the repubs indefeintely. The religious right is not eveil, they are stupid-ass suckers. Everything on both sides among the real power-brokers is about the neo-con agenda abroad and the robber-barron pseudo free-market at home.

[Renegade Paladin]

13. I don't know...

They sure do a lot of arguing with each other to be working together. The whole filibuster fight? The Democrats are fighting that tooth and nail, and good on them.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

28. Hi Renegade Paladin!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[leanin_green]

14. I've seen the signs!!!

I've believed this for awhile now, but more so now. Now that they have rigged the voting system it is even more of a play. They will all continue to share power. We are all in the clutches of the Military Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned us about and JFK, Bobby and Martin all gave their life fighting against.

[smiley]

15. I've recently learned some interesting things about the federal

reserve banking system which I believe is the root of many of the financial problems throughout US history... and most likely other coutries also.

http://truthstream.org/amember/member.php

this website has a lot of useful and thought provoking videos on the state of our democracy. You have to sign up but very informative and worth it.

[BigBearJohn]

16. Sure, it's hard to believe, but then again, so was Nazi, Germany -- yet

GUESS WHAT? IT REALLY HAPPENED

Who in their right mind could ever have believed
that one man could act so insanely depraved toward his fellow
human beings? It wasn't so long ago. And here I thought it
had to have been a "fluke" of human nature. Well, at least
I hoped it was.

[ginnyinWI]

19. not really

It's easy to look at the past and organize it into something that supports any theory you want, if only you pick the right things to look at and leave out others. But that doesn't make it true.

A few things are missing. Like, why would both sides want to volley power back and forth? Why bother spending all of that money and time to increase voter turnout, if the results were pre-planned. They don't need any minimum number of voters--a 10% turnout would suffice!

The Repubs don't want to solve their wedge issues, anti-choice and anti-gay, because then they wouldn't have anything left to trot out every 4 years to entice the Fundies to come out and vote on! They are their secret weapons. The Fundies don't seem to notice that Bush was president for four years and never lifted a finger to overturn Roe v. Wade. The Dems do make progress on their issues--when they are in power. Clinton progressed on the environment, anti-crime, budget-balancing, etc. in his eight years with the help of Gore, Kerry and others. Have you forgotten the balanced budget and booming economy of the 90s, and the drop in the crime and unwed pregnancy and abortion rates? And the environmental laws Clinton put in place, which Bush is attacking now?

As for the election, from what I understand, they were salivating for Dean to be the nominee! Rove could hardly wait. They even had their first attack ad all ready to go. I DO think they want Hillary to run next time--all the talking heads on their side are talking her up. She should just string them along for a few years, then bow out--that would fix them. I really hope she's doing just that--playing the decoy. If they WERE all in cahoots, they wouldn't be shooting their mouths off on TV about it--they are too smart for that. Always, always suspect anything that they say!! (and half of what the Dems say--haha)

Our democracy is in trouble, mainly because the media is muzzled, but it isn't gone. The people have to become sick and tired of the status quo, then things will change.

[funflower]

20. When I worked in politics a few years ago

my impression was that most republicans were not as concerned about "family views" and such as they appeared, and most democrats were less interested in social justice and the environment than they would have you think.

EVERYBODY stood up and took notice when the lobbyists for the major corporate interests were in the neighborhood.

:tinfoilhat:

[Renegade Paladin]

24. Of course.

The suits are the ones with the money. Without money, you can't run an effective campaign. Without an effective campaign, you can't get elected. As long as this is the case, and it's going to be the case for a long time, the corporate interests are going to be important in Washington.

[kaitykaity]

21. Not really tin foil hattish.

Nader said this same thing in 2000. "There's no difference
btwn the Dmes and the Pubs."

Just another way of saying it.

:eyes:

[FrenchieCat]

22. Two Sparkles......

I'll just say that anything is possible, and there are certainly some obvious maneuvering and manipulation going on. Ask Zogby and Gallup...the polling firms are the tools to guiding our elections to where "they" want them to go.

[PATRICK]

25. the impression seems true

the big picture seems "divide and conquer"(and keep divided by dualistic infighting among the enslaved),

but the details seem to spiral out to the consequences and coincidences of having such a monstrosity absolutely dominating a fake world. Trying to define and peel back the layers is almost impossible.

Yet I would say the commitment to action is clear. Target the finishing of the major wars for freedom- the people, the institutions, the laws and the corporations responsible for all these ills left miraculously untouched like untreated cancer. It is SMALL and increasingly USELESS bunch of elites for whom escalation is the only way to avoid natural extinction by even a passive historical flow. They have had to personally raise their heads in public to do this "twilight of the gods thing" whereas Dem politicians are tools of someone or other, most often totally bemused by the power drive and methods of GOP monsters(Bush cabal especially) they still insist on thinking of as peers.

So naive have the Democratic representatives(as opposed to the GOP Coup frauds) been that I am sure it has been fairly easy to plant false road signs, false ideas, false friends deep within what sadly passes as party planning. So easy that one can instead wonder if such nefarious deeds are even necessary except for constant nudges by the press and the lack of confidence caused by unexposed election fraud.

[Disturbed]

26. Oligarchy/Plutocracy

Take your pick. That's what I think Amerika is. Are there any poor politicians or even Middle Class one? How many in top levels of Govt. aren't millionaires? I believe that the Govt. mingles with the Multi-Corps and caters to them in everyway they can. The CIA doesn't defend and protect Democracy, only Capitalism. Dems and Repubs are sort of like lawyers, they fight in the courtroom but hang out in the same bars and mingle. No tinfoil needed to be logical.

[loftycity]

27. No tin foil here ! All of your conclusions are right IMO

We all know that is what they are doing. One big drama for the masses. Plus divide and conquer works so well in their drama. They would not survive without the divide and their badly acted drama.
One big bad sit com...

[Donna Zen]

29. Just read Bob Herbert's column

So I'm feeling more than particularly disgusted.

NYT-you need a password

This war! This damn fucking war!

Have you ever wondered how it is that Will Pitt knew, Scott Ritter knew, that 22 Dem senators knew, and all of us with only Google knew that Iraq posed no threat to this country, that bush wanted a war--but somehow those dicey little bits flew by the "stars of the party" including Hillary. GMAFB.

And now that the only money is hidden in Pentagon pork...do you Hillary will go to the Pentagon to find the money for healthcare?

Yes, they do let us play at the social policy edges...read Arundhati Roy.

You don't need tinfoil; you need a megaphone.

Note: you realize don't you, that before we know it, we will be told by the majority of members on this forum, to get in line.

[PATRICK]

45. The Big Double Chill

When you first know that that people intentionally are doing great wrongs
under cover of lies that is the simple first stage of the knowing dissident.

The second realization is almost murkier and less believable than the pretty obvious conspiracy. That, yes, the wise and powerful ARE that stupid, clubbish and willfully stubborn in complicity with the worst lies any homeless person on the street instinctively feels long before an avalanche of witnesses and paper take the frontal lobes by storm.

The latter are what enable the cabals in the first place and aid in hiding them under a blanket of fools in the second. The only way to sort them out is to wonder if that is really necessary for the actions needed to be taken. SOME of the party "leadership" are coming around in what has to be history's slowest take considering the rapid diffusion of real information. The resistance is almost a physical force in their formed psyches precisely because they all worked themselves through the same system uncritically. I think even FDR took some time to realize his clubs(the rich, the political) were tainted and out of control. Just to realize that much less lead effectively is something a citizen would heartily wish their reps were up to speed with. But the bad situation in that regard has "progressively" gotten worse with an increase of macular degeneration of the political eyeball, and overlapping collaborative clubs substituting for a viable American civil society, representing fewer and more socially irresponsible voting and donation blocs.

Anyway it doesn't matter in the palpable evidence of failure and functional complicity. Failure this basic and of such magnitude means they must be held accountable in some way or other and not pretend that surprised ignorance is a redemptive posture.

[htuttle]

31. Anytime a popular politician starts talking class war in this country...

BLAMMO!! They get whacked.

You think that's a coincidence? I don't.

There are certain assumptions that underlay both Republicans and Democrats -- certain pieces of 'common wisdom' that aren't challenged (What's good for business is good for America, etc...), certain tactics that will never be tried, certain alternatives that are considered 'inherently discredited' so are never discussed.

Look at the outlines of the 'acceptable debate' in the US (economically speaking), and you can quite clearly see the shackles the overclass has on us. The class war is ongoing, but it's one-sided.

[MadHound]

33. Welcom to the Second Gilded Age,

Where once again, the rich are getting richer, and the rest of us are becoming serfs. Where the two party/same corporate master system of government rules the land, and the Democrats and Republicans play good cop/bad cop on our collective ass in order to keep us diverted and divided.

You are not being tin foilish, you are being observant and intelligent. We're watching the disintegration of the American Dream and both major parties are taking part in it. Sure, the Democrats throw the populace a few more scraps off of the elites' table, but they don't amount to much, and meanwhile both parties are destroying the poor and middle class.

The reason for this bi-partisan destruction of our country is because of the influx of corporate cash. Most corporations are pragmatisits, thus when the Democrats are in the ascendncy, they give to Dems, and the same holds true with the 'Pugs. Equal opportunity access purchasing insures that a corporations interests are addressed long before the interests of your ordinary voter.

The only way this vicious cycle can be broken is if publicly financed election campaigns are implemented nation-wide. Take corporate cash out of the equation and you will remove corporate influence to a large degree. This can be accomplished via the initiative ballot petition in twenty one states, while in the rest, such a measure will have to be pushed through the state's legislature.

Until then, there is one thing that we can do than will have an immediate impact, don't vote for any candidate who takes corporate cash. In the '04 election cycle, that meant only voting for either Kucinich or Cobb of the Greens for president. If there was a concerted effort to follow through with this, it could easily change our nation's politics.

[Lerkfish]

36. in this vein: WHY did bush mouth to Kerry at the last debate this phrase..

"i need to talk to you."
I read his lips quite clearly. It was after the debate, sound was off, commentators were commentating, but in the background, the camera caught Bush looking concerned, grabbing Kerry's arm and saying "I need to talk to you, where will you be?".
(this could have been the second debate, but I clearly saw this).

I wondered what that was about at the time...I was concerned it was a national security thing because of Kerry being on that committee, but since then I've wondered...what could they have had to talk about that needed to be that urgent, and not set up through normal channels? Why did Bush pick THAT moment?

I've wondered if there was something to lightning fast capitulation of Kerry, within 24 hours of the election. Was that what Bush needed to talk to him about?

I have no idea, but it makes one wonder.

[leftofthedial]

37. tin foil hat?

seems self-evident to me

[Al-CIAda]

38. Tinfoil? This is a matter of public record! n/t

[ClassWarrior]

39. Yeah, "they're all to blame" - at least that's what the Republicons...

...wants you to believe. That way they don't have to pay for their crimes.

I ain't falling for it.

NGU.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. I began to get those inklings during the Reagan administration and

the feelings have only intensified.

My first "Hey, wait a minute!" moments came during the Reagan administration when alleged Democrats were going on TV supporting everything Reagan did in the name of "bipartisanship."

Yes, some of it was undoubtedly due to timidity, but I fear that much of it was outright corruption.

The corporate media set the acceptable range of discourse (basically ranging from outright pro-Republican to disagreeing-with-the-Republicans-on-a-few-points), but if you tell the truth and say that the Iraq war is immoral or that black box voting is dangerous or that corporations are run by a bunch of amoral greedheads who would sell their grandmothers to a rendering plant if they thought it could earn them an extra million or that our contemporary way of life is toxic in many respects or that the media are indeed biased, but biased toward the beliefs of the wealthy and powerful, then watch out. You're "an extremist," you're "far left," you're "an elitist," you "hate America," you "should be protesting in North Korea," you're "out of touch with the American people." You'll be either ignored or ridiculed.

Who needs a Gestapo when you can control the information that the masses get?

[earth mom]

41. Bingo-you hit the nail on the head.

I'll join you in donning the tinfoil, because it is totally obvious that those who are supposed to represent WE THE PEOPLE are NOT doing their jobs. Oh sure, some of em talk the talk, but they most certainly aren't walking the walk and that is evident in the bankruptcy bill, ANWR, election fraud, the lack of interest in Gannon/paid propaganda, the turning of a blind eye to outsourcing, the screwed up health care industry and so on and so forth.

Those in Congress have it easy-they'd rather make "deals" behind the scenes then work their asses off or risk their careers to do the right thing for the people they represent. Oh sure, there are a few instances of heroic efforts like those by Boxer and Conyers, which without them, all hope would be lost. And Kerry gets the benefit of the doubt-he is now on the road back to redemption-we'll see how he does. However, don't even get me started on those TOTAL SELLOUTS-Bill & Hillary! How any dem could support them and their behavior is beyond me! :grr:

No doubt about it...our democracy is slowly but surely crumbling away...

[bobthedrummer]

42. A coup of sorts took place 12-12-2001 that installed this administration

that's where I'm at. We are being governed by the extreme RW, we have American fascists shredding our rallying point, our US Constitution.

[springhill]

43. Join the Tin Foil Hat Club.............

This has been a thoery of mine for awhile now. And I don't think it's that farfetched.

[OnionPatch]

44. It is pretty disturbing

But you have to figure you're probably right about at least some of this. I don't think we (the people) will ever really know what goes on behind the closed doors of the most powerful governments on Earth. The Kerry nomination shocked me into this concept. How in the world could my fellow Dems have picked him out of all of them? (Sorry, he was ok with me but he was near the end of my list, just before Gephardt and Lieberman.) And the way Howard Dean was destroyed overnight in an obviously pre-planned shark gathering.

I agree with you that it seems staged and I believe a lot of it is. The only answer I can think of is for people to get more involved at the grass-roots level and try to wrangle our power back from them, whether it be within the Democratic party or without.

[Al-CIAda]

46. kick