Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

I don't believe Kerry still takes the Swift Boat LIARS serious

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 02:20 PM
Original message
I don't believe Kerry still takes the Swift Boat LIARS serious
I would like Kerry to launch an attack on the credibility of all participants of Swift boat LIAR acclaim. Not only to clear his name and reputation but because they are dangerous and are currently pushing for war with Iran. They are also in the process of launching a similar attack as they ran on Kerry against Hillary. They need to be brought down and Kerry is about the only person in position to do so. It is a step to wards restoring sanity and reality in America and I would think for Kerry (especially as he was once a Prosecutor)a step to wards justice. I respect Kerry tremendously but a little of the shine has been removed by his failure to adequately address those attacks on his honor and service to country. This Jerome Corsi is now selling a book advocating war with Iran. These people are extremely dangerous and Kerry (and the rest of the Democrats) better realize it and act on it. Just my $.02 worth. I don't want it all to rest on Kerry's shoulders but he is in a unique position.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. If my fellow New Jerseyan, Jerome, wants war so badly...
Edited on Mon May-09-05 02:24 PM by Tandalayo_Scheisskop
I suggest he join up, take the training and be the first person HALO parachuted into Iran for recon and target acquisition duty.

Someone so willing to put others in harm's way deserves the same. I am sure the SEALS and other SPECOPS operators would find hours of amusement in Jerome.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. I agree with you. kerry IS in a position to do this and should take legal
steps against them.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ohtransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'd be surprised if Kerry didn't have extensive profiles on all
involved with the SBVT/Swiftie liars. I know I would in the same situation. If so, my guess is he'd wait until an opportune moment (should've been right after the first accusation by these nutjobs - just sayin')to pounce.

Better late than never but I'd sure love to see him slap these sleaze-balls around some!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. The Swift Boat Veterans For Truth are Buddy-FXXXXXs
When push came to shove they covered up the details of two "Friendly Fire" deaths in Coastal Force ONE ---

    1)
    2)
    3)


Two of the founders of "Swift Boat Veterans For Truth" participated in the coverup.

Buddy FXXXXXs

J'accuse - conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline

J'accuse - conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. The only problem is
It's hard for him to sue for slander, since he is a public figure. I have no idea why his prominence means that it would be harder for him to sue those lying bastards, but that's part of the legal code. :shrug: Also, it troubles me that O'Neill was practically BEGGING Kerry to sue. Obviously, he had a contingency plan, and I am sure the trial would be worse than nasty, and you KNOW Rove's big buddies would be bankrolling the legal effort (best their dirty money could buy, I've no doubt) while Kerry would have to spend his own money and time just for the Swifties to get some more media circus attention. (Because you KNOW CNN, Fox, etc would have 24/7 SBVT trial converage, and give lots of sympathetic coverage to O'Neill, Corsi, Garnder, and the rest of the scum.)

I take some comfort in knowing that really only freepers still buy the SBVT bile, and that now that it's all been publicized, they can't exactly maintain relevance, since they've said their case, and most Americans think they're nutjobs. Corsi's book is a joke, too, from what I hear - he accuses Kerry and Clinton and other Dems of being PAID OFF by Iran - in short, only the sort of a crap a total koolaid drinker would buy.

Don't get me wrong; I HATE HATE HATE those filthy lying bastards and I'd love to see them off to Hell myself. But at the same time, Corsi has great potential to become the next Alan Keyes, so he COULD be a blessing in disguise (hideous, hideous disguise, albeit.)

Just my two cents.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. I see it differently...
... if in fact the SB ads were substantially untrue, it doesn't matter if he can win a slander suit or not.

What matters is getting Kerry's side of the story out, and discrediting the SBV crowd.

If in fact these ads are lies, Kerry should have no problem making these people look like liars. And that is what he should do.

Forget "winning" a slander suit against a public figure. For whatever reason, you can say just about anything you want about one, and the law is on your side.

But how could forcing this bunch to spend millions on a defense be a bad thing?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jesus Saves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's amazing how he just tries to ignore them
See - he beat them before during a Senate run. He held a press conference and with his Nam buddies and they shot down the charges one by one. Why he doens't do that on a national level is just beyond me. The evidence is there for him to to just take them apart. But he refuses to do it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Now they have ROVE $$$$ - there's your difference.
Which they didn't in his Senate elections - besides, that kinda crap doesn't play in Massachusetts they way it plays on Faux News and in Freepland. He could sue them, but it's hard for a public figure to make a libel case stick.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. one of his nam buddies that showed up in 1996....
...to defend him, also appeared in the Swift Boat ads calling Kerry a liar. Talk about a flip flip! This guy, George Elliot, came to Kerry's defense in 1996 and decided to smear him in 2004, what an ass. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. The thing is, he and the Nam buddies came out FIRST
so that when the attacks came, he's already used that defense, and the media treated the Smear vets as if they were new news, and the Band of Brothers as if they were old news.

He tried to pre-empt the attacks this time, and it didn't work nationally. Partly I suspect that Boston media is more friendly to their liberal Senators. And partly because bringing out the Nam buddies apparently only works as a response to the attacks, not in stopping them before they start.

It was amazing to me how the Smear vets completely discounted the Nam buddies as if they couldn't see what was right in front of their faces. It was even alleged that the buddies were being paid. Not only didn't Jim Wasser get paid, he to a financial hit to come out and fight for Kerry. I feel bad for those guys.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberaltexas Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. He never did, that's why the deciminated him
If he had recognized the threat and trashed them then that would have been it.

In this day and age of a gian industrialized republican news machine, you can't just assume this stuff will go away.

He had facts on his side, but surely his advisors were saying "if you address them it gives them credibility". This approach won't work nowadays since the GOP media machine doesnt' require credibility.

He should have attacked, and he didn't. Now he should just go away. He's a blight on our party.

Cheers
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Your final sentence renders your entire post irrelevant
God, I hate it when Dems don't go away and keep working and doing their jobs. IT ANNOYS ME!!! :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberaltexas Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. You don't get it
Edited on Wed May-11-05 07:51 AM by liberaltexas
There are progressive democrats out there. There are people who haven't comprimised their personal character and national reputation. These people are better suited for a presidential bid. Kerry is not a real competitor and never will be. By attempting to inject himself into the positioning for our party's candidacy again-he's weakening this party.

On the other hand, I support his right to do so and your right to support him. The more times we put forth these pseud-progressives and support wishy washy establishment types and loose, the less chance people will support them the next time.

If we need to beat ourselves down a few more elections, so be it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
11. Considering at least one of them has been after Kerry for 30 years
after being appointed by Nixon to discredit Kerry, I think Kerry knows pretty well how serious it is.
-----
But O'Neill's ties to the Republican Party extend far beyond party affiliation. During the CNN interview, Blitzer reported that former President Richard Nixon had urged O'Neill to publicly counter Kerry on The Dick Cavett Show, but there is more to the story. O'Neill was a creation of the Nixon administration, as Joe Klein detailed in the January 5 issue of The New Yorker. Former Nixon special counsel Chuck Colson told Klein that Kerry was an "articulate" and "credible leader" of those veterans calling for an end to the Vietnam War and therefore "an immediate target of the Nixon Administration." As such, the Nixon administration found it necessary to "create a counterfoil" to Kerry. Colson recounted, "We found a vet named John O'Neill and formed a group called Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace. We had O'Neill meet the President, and we did everything we could do to boost his group." Articles from the April 21 Houston Chronicle and the June 17, 2003, Boston Globe confirm close ties between O'Neill and the Nixon administration.

Beyond his role in the Nixon administration's strategy to undermine Kerry in the 1970s, O'Neill is also connected to Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist (a Nixon appointee) and to former President George H.W. Bush, according to Houston Chronicle articles from March 31 and April 21. In the late 1970s, O'Neill clerked for Rehnquist; in 1990, according to an October 7, 1991, report by Texas Lawyer, the former President Bush considered O'Neill for a federal judgeship vacancy.


http://mediamatters.org/items/200405040004
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1956 Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I think Kerry was told not to fight the SB liers during the campaign
Imagine how hard it must've been to be on the campaign trail with about 20 different(at least) folks guiding you this way and that. With the grueling schedule,etc.,it's a wonder anyone comes out of it alive. I think he has so much on his plate that he is fighting for: KidsFirst(more, I'm sure) and getting the goods on BushCo, etc for fraud, he is trying to hold to the integrity of getting things done for the people, whether in the white house or not, but, I would've loved it, if he could've put those SB jerks in their place. Loved it!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. He admits he followed bad advice
The Swift Boat Liars came out twice.

In the spring, they made the initial attacks, but they didn't do any harm.

They returned in August. Some didn't take them seriously as they didn't do real harm in tahe spring. It is also an old rule of politics that if you respond to attacks, people tend to remember the attack more than the response.

Kerry eas also on his post-Convention tour to spread his proposals and his advisors didn't want to let other things drown this out.

It was clearly a mistake but it is easier to say this in retrospect having seen the damage it did. Reportedly Kerry was also angry with the advisors who suggested he not respond.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberaltexas Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. That old rule of politics is null and void now
With the dawning of the republican media machine and it's pervasiveness in every state and county you no longer can count on merit and objectivity squelching propoganda like the swift boat vets.

Now, the machine the the GOP built is a massive microphone for every unfounded and inflamatory statement that can be made during an election.

This essentially castrates the theory that you ignore it in order to not lend it credibility. Nothing can be ignored and debate of substance is not possible in our current media situation. Until something changes you won't ever be able to count on ignoreing the festering wound that is the right wing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. Well if you are correct then Kerry is just incompetent and I don't buy tha
I think Kerry truly underestimated these people's clout. He still does. They have tremendous clout and are using that clout once again to launch us into a war and to knock down any other Democratic leaders that may arise. They need to be addressed and the sooner the better. If Kerry doesn't do it who will? They have access to untold millions of dollars and with that much money they can make anyone believe anything. Also they have no scruples or shame so they are unlimited by what they can and will do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ohtransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
14. This is one area where Bubba shined.
Love him or hate him, he had his rapid response team (I realize Kerry had one too.) and an army of surrogates (Read: attack dogs) that hit every media outlet the could get their hands on. At the same time, WJC kept his hands "clean".

I thought this might have been the proper way to address these war profiteers. Might come in handy down the road...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Not really a fair comparison
Clinton did a really great job answering attacks and he rightly deserves credit for it. However, going forward, it's important to really look at the difference in the level of attacks. Clinton was hit SEQUENTIALLY with a variety of attacks that targeted (supposed) problems in his character and past. He blew each one out of the water, sometimes more through the force of his personality than anything else.

This year, when that was the pattern (in the spring) Kerry also destroyed each slam on his record. In August, he was hit with a MASSIVE attack of hundreds of charges, propotedly from hundreds of people who served with him. There was a book, hours and hours of talk radio, cable TV etc. The volume itself to some people gave credence.

Kerry did prove that all the significant charges were lies and got the information to the MSM. A fair media would have supported Kerry and castized the slimers after several blatant lies were exposed. Instead the cable media almost took the opposite approach, that EACH claim was aired and given credence until it specificly was disproved even if the source was shown to have lied on several other points. (It was as if Kerry was guilty until proven innocent, and his good reputation wasn't given any weight nor was the bad reputation of some of his accusers taken into consideration.)

Kerry or Kerry surrogates also tried to fight the charges in a general way. They already had over 100 pages of records on his web site. They argued that the navy gave him the medals and they placed him as an aide to an Admiral when he returned to the US - a position that needed higher clearance which was ok with the officers in his chain of command (who later slimed him). The Nixon people were on tape saying they had investigated him and he was squeaky clean.

The Nixon people were also on tape as planning to destroy him. I read that as hyperbole, until I saw a show where Doug Brinkley was emphasizing what they said and what they then did - having the FBI (which reported back that he was neither violent nor doing anything wrong) follow him and tap his phone, then smearing him as (among other thing) a druggie and a subversive when he ran for office in 1972, causing a toxic climate where Kerry and his wife had their tires slashed and rocks thrown through their house windows - on landing near their daughter's cradle.

Given the length the Nixon administration went to destroy a 27 year old war hero because he successfuly spoke out against their policies, it is impossible to believe that they wouldn't have checked with at least a few of his reporting officers for anything - no matter how minor - they could use against him. From this background, the media should have reasonably assumed that Kerry's war record was what it appeared to be.

Even in hindsight, it is not clear how Kerry could have dealt with this - almost everything would have some downside. For example, let's say he would have gone on a newshow with Brinley and maybe a few of his crew members and answered questions. It would then have been argued that it would appear that he was defensive and it was as if he was on trial. Also, any small misstatement he made about what he did in 1968/1969 would be blown out of proportion and called a lie. (Consider the whole Cambodia nonsense - The SBVT took a Senate floor speech (from the late 80s), where Kerry, warning against covert actions in Central America, alluded to the comaparable situation in VN where soldiers were ordered to cross the border in to a neutral country. He said Nixon and talked about Dec 1968, clearly an error but not a lie. The error was also totally irrelevent to the point he was making and Kerry would likely have corrected it if anyone had pointed out the discrepancy.)

For another candidate, the question might be how to we play "Rove" and design a smear attack. With Kerry, they took things that should have been strengths and smeared them into liabilities. (his war record, his athletisism, and Teresa( a briliant woman with her own record of accomplishments)) Even then, because they MADE STUFF UP its's harder to have responses on the shelve. (On a stupider level, how do you deal with the he's orange, he looks French, he's a metrosexual stuff. As Kerry wasn't orange, a metrosexual, or of any French heritage (which incidently is not illegal, immoral, or bad) and these charges were just floated into a waiting media, a campaign looks almost stupid denying them.)


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'm sure he'll blow them out
at a time of his choosing. It might be better to wait until closer to the election (although not as close as August before the election when you don't want this sort of thing dominating the news).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
harpo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
18. well he should...they sold the "invalid" purple hearts pretty good
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tactical Progressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
23. Kerry should have just called them traitors and cowards
The kind of guys who were always hiding out in the back of the boat. 'Typical Republicans.'

Over and over and over and over.

Who even cares if it's the truth. They sure didn't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
24. They've already been discredited...but as long as Faux Snooze is on....
...they will be able to come back and make new shit up.

Faux Snooze is not in the real news business. They know it, but too many automatons are willing to believe them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 08th 2024, 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC