I've lost every ounce of desire I ever had to communicate

[senseandsensibility]

with anyone who doesn't see how evil this administration is. The list of atrocities since 2000 is so long and so overwhelming that if they can't see it, I'm not interested. The fact is, they don't want to see it.

We can blame the media, and believe me, I do. I am boycotting all corporate media, and know that they are firmly in *'s pocket. But this level of ignorance is willful. It is too widespread, and too prevalent even among college educated,reasonably intelligent people to be otherwise. Frankly, I am sick and tired of them and their overwhelming desire to believe that everything is wonderful in *'s America. I don't care if they ruin their own lives, but they are ruining everyone else's too. No wonder they love *. The sad fact is, they're just like him and proud of it.

:rant:

[TreasonousBastard]

1. It's headbanging time, but...

never give up.

We have to keep hope alive and realize that most people are not willfully ignorant, but simply aren't as wonky as we are about all this stuff. They have jobs to so, kids to feed, grandparents to visit... Yes, some of them are deliberately ingnorant, but most simply have to budget their time in modern life, and they have little time to budget for ferreting out political news.

I know it seems like it's taking forever, but they are slowly coming around, and it's partly because people like you keep bringing stuff up.

Just don't argue and get in anyone's face, (unless they're getting in yours). It's always best to make your point by example, and not yelling in exasperation.

[DIKB]

2. I had this thought the other day.

It used to be that I thought that supporting * you had to be either ignorant or evil. You cannot be innocent and ignorant anymore. There is too much information out there. They are willfully ignorant, therefore they are EVIL, make no mistake at all. Blood is on ALL of their hands.

Any fair god (if he exists) will condemn them for their actions and inactions.

[halobeam]

9. I think there are people who feel they can't deal with reality..

I don't think they are evil if they are even willfully ignorant. I think they are afraid of reality. Some people just can't cope with all the corruption. We are all made of different stuff. Some can work in the ER, some with criminals, some with the dying and some work without contact with people, stuck behind a desk in front of a computer eight hours a day, and so on and so on. Some avoid relationships because they are afraid of being hurt, so they wind up lonely. They may even destroy something good because they are afraid if they were abandoned, they wouldn't be able to handle that. Some people pick abusive relationships one after another because they don't think themselves worthy of more.

Some live in denial, and these people are the ones who are most likely to dig their head in the sand about the big things, like politics. They think blindly if they don't deal with it, they will never have to.

Evil to me, is in, being malicious. I don't think most people are bad, malicious, intentionally harming themselves and others. I just don't. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we are all more similar than we are different.

Some can take this and fight back, some just can't and DON'T for many, many reasons.

[lyonn]

14. There's a lot of wanna bees out there

They are going to be rich and want to protect the money and power they "are going to have" which causes them to hate the "death tax", silly people don't know that you have an exemption from that tax unless you have a very big estate. Then of course that religious thing that bogs them down, cripples some of their minds. Oh, and if you are Repub. you must be better than the poor white trash that vote Dem., that's a good one.

[Donna Zen]

3. Voluntary madness

A few weeks ago, I volunteered to take some candidates for a job on tours of the building. The gig would be after work, but what the heck...just doing my part.

It turns out that the other volunteer is a man I have avoided for weeks. That was after the fool told me that george w. bush cannot lie because God speaks through bush, and God doesn't lie.

I just spent 4 unpaid hours with that hopelessly ignorant asshole. All the while he makes smarmy anti-Dem comments to the visitor blaming our Dem. governor for everything that is wrong with public education.

Needless to say I'm one with your position: no communication. In addition: no eye contact and no volunteering.

[necso]

4. Nice rant.

Willful blindness and willful ignorance play a large role in our problems. And so does some people's need to cling to various illusions about themselves, their world and their role in it. (And for republicans, illusions about their party deserve specific mention.)

However, I think that one should also recognize the roles that other factors play, such as fear, nearly ubiquitous reinforcement of people's misconceptions by the marketing machine (including materialism and "entertainment" as "culture" -- or as a sustainable lifestyle (a little actual thought turns out to be necessary)) and the pronounced tendency of our culture towards intellectual laziness and inertia (TV looms huge here).

It is as much (or more) basic human weaknesses (eg, fear, the desire for self-gratification) as it is more complex forms (of human weakness) like pride (which willful blindness and ignorance are forms -- or perhaps symptoms -- of).

[senseandsensibility]

17. Thanks

I was sure I'd be flamed or ignored. It's nice to know that some agree with me, although I wish it were not necessary to agree. I'm at the point now that I think this type of attitude could actually be posiitive. If more people (and politicians) on our side feel this way, they may develop the balls to stand up to these thugs.

[necso]

20. There is a large element

within the neocons whose hubris is so great that they believe that they do not need to see anything in any other way than they would (wish to) see it -- or know anything more than they would know. In the extreme case, these fools actually seem to believe that they can effectively change reality without considering its existing state -- and essentially just by wishing it so. (Of course, this is simple insanity. And it's very telling that such people have great power... and that society does not call them crazy to their faces.)

But there are also many other people who are just being led around by the nose (by the neocons), and this for a great variety of reasons -- generally that these people (the led) have (open) weaknesses that the neocons are able to exploit. Such weaknesses vary widely and include things like single-minded "identification" with the republican party (even though this party is nothing at all like it was), a "taste" for simple solutions and macho posturing, a lack of critical reasoning facilities and etc, etc.

And just as the neocons recognize different weaknesses in people and move to exploit these weaknesses (each as appropriate), we must recognize this phenomenon and prepare a response to cover all of its avenues (as is effective, efficient, etc), while finding new (positive) avenues to use.

And on a personal level, these are also important distinctions. Myself, when I "proselytize" anyone (in person, at least), I tailor my message to who he is, what he knows and how he operates (etc, etc). This sort of approach has a much higher success rate than operating on fixed assumptions about what this person "must" (has to be for some "reason") be like (or "should" be like).

So keep in mind that it is not always willfulness. And while pride is very hard to overcome (in part because an essential element of (extreme) pride is not recognizing that one is proud), some other shortcomings can be more easily dealt with -- and are worth distinguishing.

[lyonn]

5. food for thought

In the past week or so it has been stated that the 45 Dem. Senators represent about 45 million people and the 55 Repub. represent about 44 mil. So there are more of us Dems than Repubs. According to our last election the R's had 3 mil. more votes. I see it as a split. We just haven't been given a voice and polling could very well be a joke or out and out lying. Let's face it there is a lot of lying going on. PBS and Moyer are things of our better past. Democracy Now is the only thing worth watching and C-span.

[FreedomAngel82]

8. Yes

Someone mentioned that on the Senate floor today about the representation. I found it quite interesting. If that's true then why and how did the republicans win the majority if the democrats represent more people then they do? Wouldn't the democrats be the majority in this case? I can't remember who it was who mentioned it on the Senate today but it was a guy from Delaware (democrat).

[lyonn]

11. Senate gives eqal representation

for each state no matter the population of the State, so Vermont gets 2 Senators and Calif. gets 2 Senators. That Senator you mentioned was telling how many of certain smaller states it would take to have the same population as Calif., it was about 6 small states. Think of the voting map and you can see roughly how many red states that get 2 senators no matter the size. Don't know if I explained that very well but it's close.

[senseandsensibility]

22. I can see that you've put a lot of thought

into this. Kind of makes my rant look immature by comparison! LOL. I agree with all your points, but I have (temporarily, I hope) lost all desire or ability to understand these people. If I regain it, I'll reread your post. It sounds like it could be helpful.:)

[FourStarDemocrat]

6. I feel exactly like you do..

I cannot stand to talk with or be around Bush supporters at all any more. In the past, I never had much of a problem in the past getting along with those who are republican, conservative, etc..but I am so fed up with the litany of misdeeds that THIS administration has done to our nation, and to the rest of the world, that I do't have the patience any more to deal with them. Those that support him fervently either selfish, corrupt assholes like W, or too dumb to understand or care, or just in total denial or what's being sold to them.

[tabasco]

7. At this point, they are either willfuly ignorant, ...

just plain stupid, or a knowing neocon supporter. I don't care to be around any of these fools.

I know exactly how you feel.

[kentuck]

10. And the more you hate *...

the more they love him... It's almost like a law of physics.

[lyonn]

12. Just listen to them on c-span

They are eye openers. And they let those people vote!

[cyr330]

13. Yep

I don't have a single frined who's Repuke. Thank god nobody in family is repuke either, because then I'd be stuck with them. Live in San Francisco, so 90% of the people here are either Dem or Green, so no fundie/Bushies to have to deal with either. That's a good thing, because I FUCKING hate repukes!

[leftofthedial]

15. time for a little chlorine in the ene pool

IMHO

[Southsideirish]

16. That's why I can't stand the moderates on Air America who want to EXPLAIN

things to the Limpaw crowd so they will "understand" our positions and not hate us so much. It will never happen. That 43% of the hard core Bushies are never ever going to change or be persuaded to convert to the "good" side. They are hopeless. Unless there is a huge personal scandal (ala Lewsinski)the moderate Dems who want to "reach out" may as well convert a fire hydrant.

[senseandsensibility]

21. Yes, in fact I have been listening to

Air America a lot the last couple of days. Maybe that's what brought it on. :)

[liberal43110]

18. I had the same thought last week

I have 1 friend who likes Bush, and last week I almost told him to shut up and quit being so stupid. He is college educated, went to a great liberal arts college, and is reasonably bright. But....

I do not understand how he can be so blind. I think you're right: I do think it is willfull ignorance.

I am close to telling him to get a brain if we are to continue to be "friends."

[wiggs]

19. Heard Eric Alterman say similar thing.

His feeling is that polarization has divided us into camps that can no longer communicate without someone throwing gasoline on the discussion by name calling, smearing, denouncing, not listening, diverting attention from the facts, etc.

This lack of discourse, he says, obviates progress on issues, does not lead to understanding, and does not lead to solutions. It just leads to more polarization.

We can't process issues anymore without good communication. Hence, there's no real discussion of the UK memo, the deficit, fillibusters, etc between two sides of the issue.