Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Okay Dean folks--you drove me to it. Let's play "who's corporate?"

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:29 PM
Original message
Okay Dean folks--you drove me to it. Let's play "who's corporate?"
Edited on Mon Jan-26-04 12:30 PM by jpgray
Environmental Groups Criticized Dean for Siding With Business.

“’EP under Governor Dean meant Expedite Permits, not Environmental Protection,’ proclaims Annette Smith, the director of Vermonters for a Clean Environment. Smith is no stranger to Dean's environmental record, having tangled with the Dean administration on everything from the OMYA Corporation's mining to pesticide usage on Vermont's mega-farms. When Smith learned that Dean was holding a press conference at the Burlington Community Boathouse last week to celebrate his eco-legacy, she fired off emails to Vermont environmentalist calling for a protest of the event and wondering if they were ‘going to let Governor Dean ride out on his white horse of environmental leadership?’”
(Counter Punch, 2/22/03)

Dean “Greased the Wheels” on Environmental Permits.

“ Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations. When Canada's Husky Injection Molding Systems Ltd. wanted to build a new manufacturing plant on 700 acres of Vermont farmland in the mid-90s, for instance, Dean greased the wheels. Husky obtained the necessary permits in near-record time. ‘He was very hands-on,’ says an appreciative Dirk Schlimm, the Husky executive in charge of the project. And when environmentalists tried to limit expansion of snowmaking at ski resorts, ‘Dean had to show his true colors, and he did -- by insisting on a solution that allowed expanding snowmaking,’ says Stenger.”
(Business Week, 8/11/03)

Dean Set A Pro-Business Tone.

“ Stephanie Kaplan, a leading environmental lawyer and the former executive officer of Vermont's Environmental Board, has seen the regulatory process under Dean become so slanted against environmentalists and concerned citizens that she hardly thinks its worth putting up a fight anymore. ‘Under Dean the Act 250 process (Vermont's primary development review law) and the Agency of Natural Resources (ANR) have lost their way,’ contends Kaplan. ‘Dean created the myth that environmental laws hurt the economy and set the tone to allow Act 250 and the ANR to simply be permit mills for developers.’”
(Michael Colby, editor Wild Monthly, Counter Punch, 2/22/03)

Dean Helped IBM With Environmental Regulations.

“Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations. ... IBM, by far the state's largest private employer, says it got kid-gloves treatment. ‘We would meet privately with him three to four times a year to discuss our issues,’ says John O'Kane, manager for government relations at IBM's Essex Junction plant, ‘and his secretary of commerce would call me once a week just to see how things were going.’”
(Business Week, 8/11/03)

IBM Plant Biggest Polluter in Vermont.

“ IBM's Essex Junction chip plant discharged the most of any Vermont company, releasing 213,446 pounds of chemicals, or 36 percent of the 591,790 pounds released in the state in 1999. … IBM released 170,000 pounds of nitrates in 1999. The chemical is discharged to the Winooski River with the company's wastewater. That discharge is up from the company's 1998 nitrate release of 140,000 pounds.
(Burlington Free Press, 4/13/01)

Dean Close With IBM When Governor—But Details Sealed.

“ Former Gov. Howard Dean met with executives at IBM at least quarterly. His appointees were in touch with Vermont's largest employer even more regularly. During Dean's 11 years in office, jobs at IBM's Essex Junction plant fluctuated up and down. The company crossed paths with the state on a variety of other issues from transportation to environmental permits and utility rates. How much influence did the former governor have with Big Blue? Finding an answer in the records Dean left behind is arduous at best.”
(Burlington Free Press, 8/10/03)

IBM Fourth-Highest Contributor to Dean’s Presidential.

As of October 2003, IBM had contributed $26,095 to Dean’s Presidential campaign, making them the fourth-highest contributor. (www.opensecrets.org)

Dean Suppported IBM’s Call for New Highway.

Not surprisingly, business groups have tended to back Dean since 1991. ‘He's been a strong supporter of many of our baseline issues,’ says Chris Barbieri of the Vermont Chamber of Commerce. IBM's O'Kane says, ‘For the most part, business has viewed him favorably.’ IBM is far and away the state's largest employer, and Dean has assiduously courted the company, meeting quarterly with its executives for 11 years.

When the plant in Essex Junction pulled for a highway construction project that environmentalists opposed, Dean took the company's side. In mid-May, rumors circulated that IBM might scale back or close the plant. Dean told a press conference, ‘There have been very few things that they've asked for that they haven't gotten.’”
(American Prospect , 7/15/02)

Dean Appointed Two Ski Executives to Land Use Panel.

“ The Land Use Permitting Process Interim Committee, which is to report its findings to the House and Senate Natural Resources committees by Jan. 15, agreed Friday to examine ways of eliminating redundancy in the permit process and make it more efficient while maintaining some public participation. But the 13-member panel itself came under criticism over its makeup. The law creating the group called on the governor to appoint four of the members: one each representing environmentalists, cities and towns, businesses and the general public.

Gov. Howard Dean appointed ski area executives both to the business and general public slots, a move that some environmentalists said left the panel stacked in favor of developers. ”
(Associated Press, 11/2/02)

”’I find it laughable that a representative of Killington is the governor's appointee to represent the general public,’ said Steve Holmes of the Vermont Natural Resources Council. ‘What I fear is that we're going to grease the process even more for businesses at the expense of citizens and at the expense of the environment.’ Committee member Sen. Richard McCormack, a Windsor County Democrat and chairman of the Senate Natural Resources Committee, said of Spangler, ‘Clearly he's representing the ski industry.’ He said it ‘certainly would be as reasonable’ to appoint Elizabeth Courtney, executive director of the Vermont Natural Resources Council, to represent the ski industry. ‘It really doesn't pass the straight-face test,’ McCormack said.”
(Associated Press, 11/2/02)

Dean Set Stage for GOP to Purge Envr Board.

“ Kaplan points to the ‘Environmental Board purge’ in the mid-90s that allowed Dean to set the pro-development tone. In 1993, the Board issued an Act 250 permit to C&S Grocers in Brattleboro with conditions that restricted the diesel emissions from its heavy truck traffic. After C&S execs cried foul and threatened to move to New Hampshire, Dean broke gubernatorial precedent by publicly criticizing the Environmental Board for issuing what he called a ‘non-permit.’

A year after receiving their public rebuke from Dean, four of the Environmental Board members - including the chair - were up for reappointment. With the not-so-subtle clues from Dean that he didn't approve of the Board's political direction, the Republican majority in the state senate shot down each and every one of their appointments, thus dramatically changing both the structure and climate of the Board.”
(Counter Punch, 2/22/03)

Nearly All Permits Approved—Most Without Hearings.

“ After the post-C&S purge,’ says Kaplan, ‘the burden of proof for Act 250 permits switched from being on the applicants -- where it's supposed to be -- to being on the environmentalists. That's why 98% of the permit requests are approved and only 20% ever have hearings.’”
(Counter Punch, 2/22/03)

Dean as Environmentalist Is “Fraud."

“‘Dean's attempts to run for president as an environmentalist is nothing but a fraud,’ told Wild Matters. ‘He's destroyed the Agency of Natural Resources, he's refused to meet with environmentalists while constantly meeting with the development community, and he's made the permitting process one, big dysfunctional joke.’”
(Counter Punch, 2/22/03)

Dean Blasted “Legal Ace” of Environmental Movement.

“ What did Dean think about the latest move of the Conservation Law Foundation ? The governor let loose. He blasted the foundation as an ‘extremist’ environmental group that would ‘stop at nothing’ to get its way. ‘All they do is make people mad,’ Dean said. …The organization is the legal ace of the Vermont environmental movement and a fierce advocate for clean water, clean air, and what it considers to be smart land use. The foundation's emphasis on enforcing pollution laws sets it apart from other green groups that focus on education or lobbying.”
(Burlington Free Press, 1/13/02)

Conservation Law Foundation Said Dean Wouldn’t Take Their Calls.

“The foundation's Vermont staff were dismayed but not surprised by Dean's tongue-lashing, which erupted on Vermont Public Radio's Dec. 4 ‘Switchboard’ call-in program.

After all, the foundation has become a sharp critic of Dean's environmental record, blasting him in newspaper ads last year for what it views as non-enforcement of clean-water laws. The relationship between Dean and the organization's Vermont director, Mark Sinclair, was already strained. Dean had dumped Sinclair who had worked briefly in the administrations of both Dean and Gov. Madeleine Kunin from two advisory councils and had stopped seeking his advice. Now Sinclair a Cornell law school graduate whose $95,000 salary falls just short of the governor's doubts Dean will take his calls. ‘I don't even try anymore,’ Sinclair admitted.”
(Burlington Free Press, 1/13/02)

Dean Consistently Underfunded Environmental Cleanup.
“ Elizabeth Courtney served on a state environmental panel during the Snelling and Dean administrations. Now executive director of the Vermont Natural Resources Council, Courtney has praise overall for Dean's environmental policies. But she agrees that the state's land-purchase reach exceeded its maintenance grasp: ‘Dean's choice, nine times out of ten, was to invest in land conservation as opposed to investing in the institutions that work on cleaning up the environment. He had an Agency of Natural Resources that was, during his tenure, consistently underfunded and understaffed.’”
(National Review, 8/11/03)

Dean Did Not Lead on Environmental Agenda.

“ Environmental groups accuse the governor of doing little to promote issues considered important to environmental groups: renewable energy, for example, or cleaning up Lake Champlain or curbing sprawl. ‘It does seem like we've lost our compass, doesn't it?’ said Steve Holmes, of the Vermont Natural Resources Council. ’It's turned into a holding action, defending our current environmental laws like Act 250,’ Sinclair said. ‘The governor is not setting any leadership . . . in terms of an environmental agenda. In fact, he's making it worse,’ he said.”
(Associated Press, 4/2/01)

“Dean Has Failed to Provide Leadership” On Clean Water.

“ The federal Clean Water Act is nearly 30 years old, yet the state of Vermont which brags to the heavens about its environmental reputation has failed to insist on all the steps necessary to clean up lakes and streams. Vermont reported last year that 129 stretches of river and lake are so polluted they fail to meet state water-quality standards. The pollution ranges from acid rain to runoff from manure-enriched farm fields. State government has particularly fallen short in insisting on clean-up of dirty urban and suburban run-off the spilled oil, gasoline, dirt and other waste that rain washes off streets and parking lots.

More than a dozen stormwater-polluted brooks in Chittenden County made last year's list. Reducing pollution from urban runoff will be complicated, inconvenient for developers, and possibly expensive. Our local representatives in Montpelier have not had the political will to insist that water quality standards be met. Gov. Howard Dean has failed to provide the leadership to generate that will.”
(Burlington Free Press, editorial, 8/12/01)

Dean’s Late Start Makes Cleanup Harder.

“ The Lowe's decision jolted the governor and other state officials. Dean announced this week an ambitious, three-year assault on 26 of the state's developed waterways impaired by stormwater runoff. Successfully attacking 26 watersheds in such a short time will require an extraordinary amount of cooperation among state officials, stormwater permit owners, developers and environmentalists. Previous dawdling on the issue aggravates the cleanup difficulty. Moreover, details of Dean's plan have not been worked out, including such thorny issues as a timetable and apportioning costs among state and local governments and businesses. Permitting hassles could hobble the cleanup projects with red tape.”
(Burlington Free Press, staff op-ed, 9/28/01)

Dean Criticized for Lack of Involvement.

” We were wrong about something, though. We thought that state government worked for the people of Vermont. This project has destroyed our faith in the state's protection of the environment and its citizens. Not once has Gov. Howard Dean come to southwestern Vermont to listen to our concerns. It is time the rest of Vermont awakens to what is happening to our clean air, our pure water, our land and our people. We think that once you do, you will be as outraged as we are.”
(Letter to Editor, Annette Smith, Executive Director, Vermonters for Clean Environment, Burlington Free Press, 2/20/00)

Dean’s Attempts to Expand Highway, Build Gasline, Defeated by Residents.

“ Speaking at a legislative breakfast, Dean was markedly different from the governor who a year ago told Bennington County to ‘put up or shut up’ - support controversial development projects or stop complaining about a lack of good jobs. … Last year, Dean supported in concept a plan to build gas-fired electric generating plants in Bennington and Rutland. The plants were to anchor a 63-mile underground pipeline. At roughly the same time, his administration moved to add passing lanes to Route 7 between East Dorset and Danby.

Dean cited the road's importance to southwestern Vermont's economy when making his case for the improvements. Both projects, however, ran into fierce opposition. Local citizens convinced the district environmental coordinator that an Act 250 permit was needed before construction could begin on the passing lanes. The state ended up putting the project on hold. As for the natural gas project - whose private developers still lack financing - several towns along the pipeline route voted against it, despite the governor's argument that infrastructure meant jobs.”
(Associated Press, 5/19/00)

Dean Sought Exemption From Clean Air Act.

From 1996 to 2001, the Dean administration sought an exemption on nitrogen standards in the Clean Air Act. Vermont had complied with federal Clean Air Rules on nitrogen, but asked for a waiver to expel 1,725 more tons with no offsetting. Nitrogen is a component of smog and acid rain.
(Burlington Free Press, editorial, 2/20/00)

Waiver Not for Natural Gas Plants—Was to Generate Growth.

“ While opponents say this capacity is earmarked for two potential natural gas plants in southern Vermont, that's not right. The waiver effort began in 1996, well before the plants were proposed. The state's true purpose was to prepare in a more general way for potential industrial growth.

Indeed, Vermonters might feel differently if pollution comes from a high-wage employer, rather than a power company creating only a few jobs while producing electricity for out-of-state markets. Natural Resources Secretary John Kassel says the waiver could be used to foster growth in settled areas instead of open fields.
(Burlington Free Press, editorial, 2/20/00)

Vermonters For Clean Environment Said Waiver Was Wanted for Power Plant Project.

”Vermonters beware, the state is ruining our environment Congratulations to the Free Press for bringing the Dean administration's efforts to weaken the Clean Air Act to the public's attention. The state has not informed the public about this effort. … Vermonters for a Clean Environment has found ample evidence that the state's pursuit of the waiver is tied to the Dean administration's support of the power plants which were planned for years prior to their public announcement in 1998.

In 1994, "Vermont Electric 20 Year Plan'' said, "Before, during and after the Champlain Pipeline proposal, the Rutland area has been the focus of discussions about a large gas-fired generating station.'' In a newspaper interview in October, 1998, developer Tom Macauley said of the power plant project, "It's been in the works for about nine years."
(Letter to Editor, Annette Smith, Executive Director, Vermonters for Clean Environment, Burlington Free Press, 2/20/00)

There's plenty more where this came from. Dean is one of my three favorites, along with Kerry and Kucinich. But some people's posts on this board evidence a near total ignorance of Dean's record. When Kerry is endorsed by the LCV and Dean has such a spotty environmental/corporate record, it *really* tears me up to see Kerry accused of being "corporatist" and Dean being labeled as "the anti-corporatist insurgent". Where is your evidence for that claim?

To Dean's credit, he did execute a good plan for reducing greenhouse gases by 1,000,000 tons. He also helped protect many thousands of acres of land. But for crying out loud, he's corporatist. Just like John Kerry, just like anybody but Kucinich. Is he possibly less corporate than others? Yeah, but not to the degree that Kerry is the corporate anti-christ and Dean is the anti-corporate messiah. Based on what's out there, Kerry is superior to Dean on this because he has the more consistent stance with environmental values and against deregulation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
cavebat2000 Donating Member (347 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yeah
I guess that makes him ... NOT socialist, and maybe Capitalist?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. You REALLY think it's pro-capitalism to turn America over to corporations?
It's closer to fascism than capitalism.

Capitalism is when there's a balance between profits and what's good for society, and it's when there's competition between coprorations, which forces them to work hard for their money.

This is a list of things which not only tilted the balance in favor of corporations rather than the people and which removed inter-corporate competition, which creates guaranteed profits, creates costs for society, and helps corporations take control of government.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. You can put the pro-Enron "captives" tax package at the top of the list.
It helped Enron make millions which they could then turn into bribes for Republicans to give them everything else they needed to take over the government.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. Heh...turnabout is fair play
Personally I think they're all beholden to corporations though.It's not something I'd bring as a supporter of anyone :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. The only one who deserves an "anti-corporatist" mantle is Kucinich
Edited on Mon Jan-26-04 12:40 PM by jpgray
I'd be just as pissed if someone gave it to KERRY, who is only marginally better than Dean. I really hate seeing it given to someone who doesn't deserve it. If people can't even fucking research *their own candidate*, what good are they? I draw the line at posting deliberate distortions on DU. Dean's a favorite of mine, but the crap-slinging at Kerry is really pissing me off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Edwards has spent his life taking the unjust gains of corporations and...
...giving them back to the people they took them from.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. As a lawyer. Kucinich did so as a politician in Cleveland (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. as mayor
right
The whole muni deal.
I personally think again, Kerry and Dean are at a common ground JP, neither one is a corporate pig but neither comes close to what DK is. Personally with his environmental record, I prefer Kerry to Dean. The LCV endorsement really was important.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. I agree, they are only marginally different
That's why it upsets me when people make JK out to be some corporate demon while Dean is portrayed as this benign regulatory angel. :mad:

It'll make some people mad at me, and I will be accused of bias, I'm sure, but as long as people see this thread, it'll be worth it. If someone wants to post Kerry's environmental/corporate problems here, I'd welcome it. I already put a bit of it down by Mr. Pitt's comment.

I feel like crap for starting this thread now, but for crying out loud, it's like people don't even know the guy's record! :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
47. Personally JP Ive always found you fair
Kerry and Dean are both far from angels, but far from devils either. I would think though that on this issue, I prefer the senator though. Kerry isnt a pro corporate demon, and Dean isnt the anti corporate crusader, its that simple, and vice versa too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. That's why they call each other friends.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. With a hefty cut for himself. (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. 33%, typically.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Edwards has won over 250 million for clients. He's worth 38 million,
and some of that is from appreciation on invesments and assets. Let's say he made 30 million, that's about, what? 16%? I don't think the people who got the other 84% are complaining.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
delete_bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
52. Fuzzy math
Personally I could care less about how much he earns, but comparing income to net worth to compute his fee doesn't work in this case.

We don't know the time period over which the money was earned, he certainly had business expenses associated with his practice, was probably paying 40% or more in taxes, and spends money as we all do in paying the bills and raising a family. 33% or so is probably much closer to his actual fee.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Yes. True. Reminds me of a good point: Edwards has earned almost all
his money from avenues taxed at the highest rates we tax anything: earned income.

To make 38 million, he probably had to earn 55 million.

Court awards are tax free for the recipient. So, say he did get a third of the 250 million he has made for his clients (75 million), his clients got to put 175 million in their pockets, without having any taxes paid on it. Edwards, and his partners had to pay probably 35 million on that 75 million, which went to the state and federal government, which they could then use to do good or bad things. So we're up to about 210 million for other people and 40 million for Edwards. And then out of that, say 8 million for office overhead and paying staff salaries -- so we're down to 32 million for self, and 218 million for other people (including the local stationary company and the secretaries salary).

Should we keep going? This guy has made a lot of money for other people just by doing the right thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lastknowngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. follow the money Dean's comes from ordinary people
everybody else it comes from corps.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. what a load of crap
Dean's #1 contributer AOL/Time Warner
#4 IBM.

I'm sure there's a few others in their too.

And don't give me that it's all from employees so it's OK mantra either, because corporations aren't allowed to give money to candidates only their employees can. So if your excuse were valid then it would be valid for Kerry as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Gee does that mean
I should stop my contributions to Kerry. He never accepted PAC money for years. I am not a corporation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Follow the money: Dean's earliest backers were energy company execs
who benefitted from Dean's energy deregulation/privatizion efforts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. Edwards and Kerry main contributions
come from lawyers. Edwards has received more than Bush, and Kerry is behind Bush. Dean is taking money from small individuals and educational institutions primarily, very few corporations.

It is easy to single out environmental arguments that have taken place over 12 years in office as governor, but you have to realize that Vermont has some of the tightest environmental and growth restrictions in the country. Dean would never be re-elected so many times if he was not an environmentalist, not in Vermont. Dean has balanced economic growth with all the other issues, and in our capitalistic system compromises must be made sometimes. I voted for Nader in 2000, because Gore would take VT easily and I like to vote for environmentalist/anti-corporate candidates. Dean is the best non-status quo candidate that there is. Sure Kucinich may be a more progressive, but he is unelectable.

Edwards and Kerry voted for the Iraq war, allowing the corporations like Haliburton, Bechtel, and Bushco to profit. These guys are the corporatists. Kerry wants to increase the military, probably renew the draft.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Laywers are generally Dem, and the ones who support Edwards generally
represtent average people. The onese who support Kerry are all good Dems too, but it's important to not that, unlike Edwards, they're not employees of regional law firms representing average people. They're employees of the largest natioal law firms in the country who make most of their money not ever from litigating on behalf of huge corporations, but form doing IPOs and SEC work, and from drafting business-to-business contracts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. You mean that Kerry's lawyer contributions
come from large corporate law firms, not local firms like Edwards? Is that right? Certainly that makes a difference. On the other hand, I prefer to see much fewer contributions from lawyers period. The lion share of Dean contributions come from small contributors (people), that's all I'm saying. That is Democracy in action.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:18 PM
Original message
Yes, that's the case. And I don't mind lawyer donations.
Lawyers are people who come from all classes, who work hard for their money, and who make money so long as the best justice system in the world functions adequately.

It's even better when lawyers with clients like us get behind a candidate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. How can one be deemed 'corporatist' while having...
an extraordinary environmental record? Where do you think a great deal of weight gets thrown by corporations? It gets thrown onto environmental issues - cleanup, controls, regulations. If you defend the environment consistently, you are consistently taking an anti-corporate stance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Kerry is more anti-corporate than Dean, but he doesn't approach Dennis
Edited on Mon Jan-26-04 12:49 PM by jpgray
Dean and Kerry want to have their cake and eat it too on the budget--keeping defense spending high and not cutting social programs. Environmentalism isn't the be-all end-all of corporatism--defense contractors play a role, since maintaining "defense" is hardly the priority at this point.

Dean and Kerry exhibit this troubling syndrome in Iraq as well, by resolving keeping the troops in Iraq--yet somehow this will sidestep our overtaxed personnel problem?

Sorry, but neither makes the final cut on corporate views. Don't get me started on NAFTA/WTO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Thats a terrific question
I have no idea. Kerry's efforts on the environment are definely on Kleeb's 10 points for supporting Kerry. BTW Will :hi: how was Dennis in Iowa, and I have no problem with the Edwards deal, I like JE.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Ask Al Gore. The environmental VP. Loved by Citibank.
Edited on Mon Jan-26-04 12:51 PM by AP
The right wing, I believe, use environmentalism as the middle class liberal pressure from the right on manufacturing. It balances the drive to create well-paying jobs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
14. Why is Kerry resorting to dirty, nasty phone calls to voters?
Is it because he can't win on his own merits?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. I believe that they stopped
the person that was making the calls and fired him. They acknowledged it at least. Can everyone say the same?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. No, they didn't stop
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. Kerry should stop this immediately, I don't support it at all. (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Baseless accusation
I have no doubt that dirty tricks are being played and I suspect Repubs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. Got a link for that accusation? An unbiased source?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. I Got Yer Link Right Here, Pal
(sorry, I just ate Brooklyn-style pizza. you know how that stuff wears off on people.)

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/ThisWeek/Kerry_Dean_calls_040117-1.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. A volunteer made an unauthorized call and they fired him
Edited on Mon Jan-26-04 01:06 PM by emulatorloo
but fast. I see nothing in this article that indicates this was anything but an abberation. How does that connect to Dean's allegations in New Hampshire? Other than thru innuendo?

I have no doubt that these dirty tricks are real, but my feeling is that it is probably coming from the repulicans or worse.

Besides John Kerry has Jews in his family, and is for "gay marriage" too.

On edit title I messed up!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. Read the part that stated the CAMPAIGNER was REMOVED!
So Dean did negative ads and he's trying to prove negativity in Kerry's campaign. I'd love to read a transcript of the entire recording. Regardless, the campaigner was and should have been removed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #42
59. No Need to Shoot the Messenger, My Friend
You asked for a link. I gave you one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. League of Conservation Voters Endorses Kerry
"...the League of Conservation Voters (LCV) today endorsed John Kerry for President of the United States. The LCV has never before announced an endorsement prior to the New Hampshire primary.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0124b.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
26. ... And They Say He's Unelectable
:evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I believe Dean IS electable--I've never doubted that
Sadly, I don't believe an anti-corporate candidate can win in our system. :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lurk_no_more Donating Member (582 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
27. Great Post!
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. “YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!”


And then there were none!
” JAFO”



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
28. Ive always said it
aside from Kucinich and Sharpton, all the candidates are cut from the same cloth. Kucinich cant win and Rev Al is under-qualified to say the least so I cant throw my support behind them. Dean is a uniter in the Bush vein of "am a uniter not a divider" and his candidacy has been like pure poison to Democrats.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
33. Follow the Money: As chairman of Dem. Gov's association
Dean raised money from Pfizer, the NRA, Boeing, and other big corporate donors in exchange for providing access to himself and other Governors at DGA events.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Dean imposed state property tax system which is totally regressive.
Edited on Mon Jan-26-04 01:04 PM by AP
top 1% (largely corps and super rich individuals) have a property tax burden which is 1/7th (if memory serves) the tax burden of the bottom quintile.

That's what that access is buying: tax breaks for corporations.

When a state raises property taxes to make ends meet, thanks to the fact that most big corporations have cut property tax deals, it's makes the tax burden fall on individuals, and particularly the middle class.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tryanhas Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
37. Easy question
Dean is more corporate than ANY OTHER CANDIDATE OUT THERE.

He is Bush with a "D" in front of his name.

I have told you all to look at his record. Two callers on C-Span who were supporting other candidates made some good points about Dean in Vermont, and they are good points NOT BECAUSE THE CALLERS SAID THEM but because I have said the same things over and over again, and it was good to hear it from their first hand experience.

One said, Senator Lehey (however you spell it), Rep. Sanders, and the other guy from Vermont that are in Washington, the fact that none of the Democrats from Vermont have endorsed Dean should tell you a lot.

Dean CUT AND CUT AND CUT AND CUT SOCIAL PROGRAMS while he was in Vermont, and said the same thing that he is saying now, "WE CAN'T HAVE IT ALL" but while he was cutting those social programs like only a FISCAL CONSERVATIVE can, he was laughing at the Democrats in his state. LAUGHING AT THEM!

The other caller echoed what I just pointed out about Dean's cuts in social programs when she said that "Dean is always talking about balancing the budget, but he balanced the budget on the back of my son who has ********* ." Dean cut progams that helped the sick and the poor, raised their taxes, cut taxes on the wealthy, managed to find money to build a very expensive prison in Vermont, cut programs for battered women and tried to get the charges dropped on a guy who had beaten his wife because he was a state employee, Dean was forced by the legislature to acknowledge MLK, Jr. Day as a state holiday, he had his own secret energy panel, and he tried to put in a bunch of perks and corporate loopholes for big businesses.

Dean is more corporate than any of the other candidates out there! Too many people IGNORANTLY focus on being a SOCIAL CONSERVATIVE in terms of gay marriage or aborition, but being a FISCAL CONSERVATIVE is what has ruined this country the most under the Bush administration, and the war is not the most important issue! Voting for Dean is not a step in the right direction for your life and the things that affect you daily! He is Bush with a "D" in front of his name, and if you are going to vote for a FISCAL CONSERVATIVE LIKE DEAN, then you might as well vote for Bush, because your life wouldn't improve any under Dean, although he doesn't have a 10% chance of beating Bush.

And don't even bring up HEALTH CARE. The only reason that Dean tried so hard for health care in Vermont is so that he could make sure that his doctor friends were assured of getting paid!!!

Bush is in Arkansas today promoting LIMITS ON MALPRACTICE. You think Dean would care if the GOP passed limits on that??? Of course the Dr. wouldn't, no matter what he says...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. What a steaming pile of crap....

"tried to get the charges dropped on a guy who had beaten his wife because he was a state employee,"

In fact Dean fired this guy as soon as there was an actual report to the police from his wife, who had not pressed charges or made any reports until 3 years AFTER Dean has made a statement to the courts about the man being a good father during a DIVORCE case. Claiming he tried to get abuse charges dropped is a total fabrication.


" Dean cut progams that helped the sick and the poor,"

Name a program, and I'll bet that the folks served by the program had those services picked up by other programs Dean expanded. Dean did cut programs, and he put new programs into place and expanded other programs to cover those folks.


"managed to find money to build a very expensive prison in Vermont"

They had to, they were being sued for over crowding issues in their prison system.


"Dean was forced by the legislature to acknowledge MLK, Jr. Day as a state holiday"

Also bullshit... they had already acknowledged MLK day. The issue was over to make it a floating holiday or a holiday that was locked down to a specific day for state employees.

The folks attacking Dean really are getting desperate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
38. "drove me to it"
Translation: I am kicking off a flame fest but I am not to blame.

Okey-dokey.

Julie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Where were you on the "corporate Kerry" threads?
Though most everyone in the Dean camp will shit on me now, you folks need to learn his record--calling him "anti-corporatist" doesn't wash. He is not anti-corporatist, and neither is Kerry. They are both corporatist. The only candidate who is NOT is Kucinich.

I've seen more than two dozen threads about how Kerry is in the pocket of major corporations. I'm sick of letting one of my favorites get shit on while the other who is demonstrably WORSE on the issue gets a free pass.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Dean is not anti-corporate.... he's anti-corproate abuses


As he's said over and over there is nothing inhearantly evil about corproations. The problem is when the bottom line is more important than the people.

Dean is not anti-business. Vermont's economy was in the crapper and DEan worked to bring in business to vermont.

Some folks on the far left in Vermont wanted no business and no developments at all. Dean struck a very effective balance between the two.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #41
55. I was absent, as you noticed
Edited on Mon Jan-26-04 03:06 PM by JNelson6563
Though most everyone in the Dean camp will shit on me now

Ok, so you kicked off this thread but it was actually the fault of others and now we have a little imagined martyrdom goin' on? Oy!

"more than two dozen" corporate Kerry threads?? Could this be an exaggeration to back up blaming others for your actions coupled with imagined martyrdom?

Kerry's one of your favorites and Dean is not. Ok, I don't have a problem with that. Can you with a straight face claim there's been more bashing threads on ANY candidate than Dean?

I didn't jump into the Kerry-corporate threads and don't have very much to say about the candidates that do not much inspire me. And if I did, I sure as hell wouldn't hide behind "you drove me to it". And if I kicked off a thread that was sure to draw fire I'd know I had it coming, because folks will passionately defend their candidate. I certainly wouldn't consider it being "shit on". I would know I threw a rock and would expect them thrown back. That is how the game is played.

If you go into warrior mode you're much more effective if you take your hits sans whining or qualifiers. Just an FYI.

Battle on....

Julie--who is far too busy getting her man elected to batle a bunch of anonymous folks on DU and then crying about it when they battle back
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. That attitude is what makes this forum depressing
I'm really not interested in having a personality struggle with you--I have nothing to offer you on your opinions concerning me and my intent. You can believe whatever you want on that score (you do and will).

After responding to several Dean supporters who said "Kerry is corporate, Dean is not", there came a point when I grew tired of replying to individual posters and felt the need to put the information in a thread, more visible and available to those who are ignorant of its contents. That's the only reason for the thread's existence, and the only reason for its title.

I hope every Dean supporter sees this however mad they get at me, because this is Dean's record. I know it already, because I've researched the records of my favorites--the good and the bad. I hope everyone on the board can make that statement. Even if every Dean person on the board believes I am against Dean, I will still be for him. Personalities don't enter into that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
44. But...but...he makes me feel all fuzzy and special inside....
...because he says things with such passion. Stop trying to cloud the issue with quotes and citations and research.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #44
58. LoL
Nice one! :thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
45. Thanks for posting these...
they all seem pretty corporatist to me, though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
49. What's this doing on page two, Dean Supporters? You should be proud
of your Candidates record, too proud to let this drop to page two!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Man, this is reaaly disapointing! A lengthy outline of Dean's Record.
and no Dean supporters kicking it!! What's up with that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Nice try to kick it yourself..
Dean supporters are probably tired of wasting their time with negative attacks on Dean. They're probably off doing something productive.. like canvassing for votes.

It's basic psychology. These types of gotcha threads only strengthen the support for the candidate you hoped to damage... and weaken the chances that those supporters might consider YOUR candidate if theirs drops out. Kicking the thread yourself is kinda embarrassing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Negative attacks? This is the Dean record I originally supported.
And his running away from it toward an unelectable general election position is the reason I switched.

Your charaterization of news stories containing quotes of Dean himself touting that record as "negative attacks" is a clear example of what many non-Dean supporters have been pointing out for months--that too many people believe that Dean's campaign rhetoric makes him the candidate of the left.

But I suppose that explains why a Dean supporter might view his actual record as "negative."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. I agree. Dean was originally backed as the Moderate alternative to Kerry
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. Dean himself pushed himself as a moderate
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC