An alarming level of discord.

[Zynx]

For months I have been hearing that all the bickering among the supporters of candidates is just fine and we will all be one big happy family at the end of the primary season. With several recent events, the William Pitt incident probably the most severe of them, I am beginning to doubt this very much. Such levels of personal hatred of supporters and candidates can not be healthy and will result in deep divisions among us that could be very damaging to our overall prospects.

To a large extent, it seems that personal feelings about candidates' supporters is rubbing off onto people's opinions about the candidates themselves. I've heard many people say as much as "I like the candidate a lot more than their supporters" or "Their supporters make me dislike the candidate". For me personally, I know this to be the case. For example, I almost found myself saying that I would not vote for John Kerry if he were nominated just because of the actions of some of his supporters. Luckily I came to my senses and realized this was idiotic. However, it behavior of other candidates supporters has led me, and I'm sure others who support all of the other candidates, to viciously attack the candidate and their supporters on an even personal level. This continues to feed on itself without any end in sight.

This growing divide among the supporters of the candidates has never been worse than it is now and I have seen many saying they will not vote for Candidate X if they are nominated. I also see a shrinking number of people responding to ABB threads. This is simply unacceptable. The supposed "vetting process" has turned into outright civil war here and a division in the party is possible that has not been seen since 1972 or 1980. It is for this reason that we need to break the cycle of extreme hatred among supporters of candidates as soon as possible before a permanent rift emerges. I am open to suggestions about how to stop this. I have an idea of everyone agreeing to post nothing but positive stories and analysis for two straight days begining today, after all it is Christmas time, to reduce this tension for atleast sometime.

If you think I am overreacting to this level of discord, please tell me why I am, but I firmly believe that we are seeing what amounts to near true hatred. The kind of rhetoric we are seeing now is usually what is only reserved for Republicans.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. No you are not

over reacting,

For me I like two cnadidates so did the solomonic thing and gave both money.

That said, if both should not make it, and after the primary

ABB for me.

Hell not only that but will work with that campaing to get people to the polls

[patricia92243]

4. Three bets on what I'm going to say....

Dems .. be careful - very careful - don't let Pubs set our tone or agenda.
People can take it that as for - or against - what was written

[WiseMen]

24. Dean Dominant Candidacy is based onTotal Assault on the Party Leadership

The source of discord is discord in the Party and the progressive movement itself regarding the now Dominant Dean candidacy.

Truth be told, the Party leadership welcomed the good doctor into the primary process only to find themselves the brunt and a comprehensive assault. Having successfull attacked the character, committment and legitimacy of his opponents and the Party establishment as a whole, Dean still fails to demonstate a credible candidacy for the Presidency.

Many in the though-leadership now see a weakend Party being led by a fatally flawed insurgent towards electoral disaster. The implications for the nation are more frightening than most want entertain. Thus discordant and sometimes shril warnings raised against often the vicious and dismissive rebuff of a conquering army.

Unfortunately, there is real basis for discord. Many think it is sport, but the future of our country is at stake.

[markus]

28. Yes, well, the National Committee is so all wise and all knowing

why do we even bother with a public nominating process? I mean, look at what the DNC/National Committee did for us in 2002. A stunning victory for their good friends and colleagues across the aisle.

This election is going to be about motivating the base. Dean can do that, and bring large numbers of disaffected voters back into the Party in the general election. He will carry Florida again as Gore did, probably by a larger margin due to the anger of Florida Democrat voters (who should be reminded relentlessly that *this time your vote will count*), along with NH on a favorite son basis, and West Virginia.

I think Dean is the sort of person and candidate who will appeal strongly in Minnesota and Wisconsin, places that Rove hopes to push into the Bush column.

Our goal needs to be not just the unseating of Bush. It must be the White House, the Congress and recapturing the center of American politics for the Left-of-Center team.

Anything else is just more DINO capitulation, and a majority in the party have discovered that just doesn't work, except perhaps for the lucky few like a Breaux who gets invited to the party and make sure the Louisiana is larded up with goodies for his participation in the reaming of everyone else.

Nominating an Edwards or Lieberman is an invitation to another third party disaster. Dean can appeal both to the angry (largly left/liberal) voter, and to the center based on his record.

That is the strategy for winning this election.

[Zynx]

29. That's simply not true. There are other major contributors to this discord

and you know it.

This is exactly part of the problem that I am talking about. In this post above mine, one finds blatant and deliberate deception by the author not telling the truth or atleast, in this case, not telling the whole truth.

Dean is hardly the only contributor to the current atmosphere. Him simply attacking the party leadership is hardly the only negative campaigning going on. Since you are a Kerry supporter let me point something out: Kerry has done a lot of negative campaigning. That's not all he does, but a huge part of his campaign has been a hatchet job against Dean.

As for running against the party leadership, there does need to be a change in leadership in my opinion. The Clinton leadership achieved only one thing, winning the presidency. However, there is a lot more to politics than just the presidency. Under this same leadership, we have been routed in Congressional and state and local elections. For the first time in over fifty years we have a minority of seats in state legislatures. If you think for a moment that the current leadership of our party has been beneficial to our strength, you are sadly mistaken.

[worldgonekrazy]

35. Dean's attacks on party leadership is merely a ploy, IMO

How many people amongst the Democratic base have pretty strong feelings against the DLC? As far as I can tell, quite a bit do, and thus when Dean attacks the DLC he is really pandering those people to get their vote. I think the DLC knows this and probably doesn't care nearly as much as you seem to do. The idea that Dean is going to totally dismantle and re-arrange the party is absurd. No one man has that much power over the party, not even Bill Clinton.

[Scott Lee]

37. It's about time!

Wouldn't you say?

How many failed elections, lost party visions, ineffective opposition drives are you willing to suffer? As for me, I'm way past my limit.

[poskonig]

38. At least in the McGovern/Mondale days we had the Congress.

In contrast, we have **nothing** to show after a decade of "new-Democrat" pro-family values/corporate-military leadership.

[IndianaGreen]

2. You want to see discord, come down to the I/P forum

This is a minor spat compared to the vicious blood-letting in that other forum.

[Zynx]

3. That doesn't make this situation any less damaging.

[IndianaGreen]

7. True, but...

what I am seeing most is the herd instinct. The instinctive reaction by many to strike back at someone, anyone. We lived through that right after 9/11, perhaps the most destructive period in the nearly 3-years I have been in DU.

[Haviland_42]

8. Are you talking about that Rightnation place?

Man, I have lurked over there for awhile and they are a bunch of Bush-loving sheep. But lately something is stewing over there cause I noticed this great big post over there yesterday by the founder guy saying that another really conservative site (RightSociety.com) has started up and they are "stealing" his members. They are all eating each other alive over there---it's a great place to be. If you want a great show, go watch these two. I say that in two months they will BOTH be has-beens. LMAO

[Jim Sagle]

22. You're kidding!

;)

[Blade]

5. I feel that way too, Zynx....

and this "Civil War" among the DUers is a Freepers dream. They'd love to see us crumble. I, for one, vow never to fight amongst my fellow DUers about why one candidate is better than the other.

Personally, I would love to donate money to all nine of the Democratic Presidential Nominees, and I probably will right after Christmas, just to show that I support my fellow Democrats, no matter what.

Remember my fellow DUers - the reason we all are/were united here was this sole purpose: Anyone But Bush. Let's not forget that.

[Zynx]

6. Indeed. The ultimate Rovian dream is a fractured Democratic party.

[Tatiana]

9. You're not overreacting.

You know what you are seeing? You are seeing us use Republican-style tactics against each other. As I read Will Pitt's post, I can't help but think of Bill Maher and how he lost his show on ABC, not because he lied, but because some people didn't agree with some comments he made.

Is this what it's come to? That we can't hear another viewpoint and agree to disagree?

I'm angry. I'm angry because this shows how far some people will go to silence an opposing viewpoint. That is absolutely contrary to the democratic beliefs users of this board profess to uphold and cherish. I could see this coming, honestly. The escalation of attacks on Will, personal attacks... it's almost as if Will Pitt personified the entire ABD movement (and believe you me, there is one) to "some" people. What... should we herd Will Pitt into an internet "free speech zone" where he isn't heard if he wants to, outside of his official capacity, make comments in support or against one candidate or another???

Seriously, some people are out of touch with reality. None of these candidates are God. They are flesh and blood, with human faults, human sins, human mistakes.

SOME people need to get the fuck over themselves.

And whoever sent that email to truthout should be banned from this forum.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. It certainly is possible that one or more than one of the candidates

wants it this way. If you are going to kill a party, it makes sense to do it from within...just ask Zell Miller...it works so much better than the opposition ever could and then does not appear to be partisan.

[mouse7]

13. That's tinhat poppycock

No national candidate gives enough of a crud about DU to send disrupters here.

Good Grief.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. Where did I say that?

Please find where I said candidates send disruptors here. For Christmas shall I mail you a dictionary?

[IndianaGreen]

11. How about a group hug?

:grouphug:

I am okay, you are okay!

[Blade]

12. ok...

:hug: :grouphug:

[jmaier]

14. We've finally succeeded

in reducing Freepers to simply lurking at DU. At this point, what more could they achieve by jumping in? This forum is about as fractured as it could be.

And it's not just here, it's in the actual campaigns as well. Lieberman attacks from a DLC point. Dean runs against the DLC, bashes their philosophy, injects new but divisive energy into the party all the while courting DLC superdelegate endorsements. Kerry and Gephardt attack Dean. The media swings back and forth from Dean praise to Dean bashing. God, the Republicans aren't going to have any work left to do.

It's all rather surreal.

I expect Clinton to totally avoid the whole blossoming disaster expecting an electoral massacre and then stepping in post-2004 to try and steer things his way for 2008.

[Tatiana]

15. You know....

With the way things are going, that doesn't sound too far from the truth.

[Blade]

16. Man, you hit the nail right on the head...

freepers don't need to do a damn thing. We're doing their work for them. I think it's about damn time we change that.

[stickdog]

18. As long as Dean is winning, the DLC will keep whining like a stuck pig.

[jmaier]

19. I suspect that's not the case

The DLC position is a respectable one that has at least as much support as whatever the hell Dean's actual position is. For all practical purposes, he governed under their philosophy througout his tenure in Vermont.

[stickdog]

21. Dean's riling up the Dem activist base & attacking Bush on all fronts.

This results in long term damage to the Demopublican strategy.

[jmaier]

23. Unfortunately

the dem activists are a fraction of the democratic base not its entirety. Add their 30% of the electorate to 50% of the greens and you have about 32% to go. A bit short of an electoral majority.

And, adding 10% new voters to the rolls in the more Blue states is irrelevant to a Presidential victory. You can't disregard the more moderate voices in the party and the leaners and then just expect them to turn out in droves. Well, maybe you could if you simply ignored them BUT not if you go out of your way to insult them.

[stickdog]

25. If they are really comfortable with another Bush Presidency, I can't help

but wonder how we can viably exist in the same political party.

[jmaier]

33. Listen

I think that's simply disingenuous. It's pretty much a fact that a good portion of even registered voters might not actually make it to the polls. I'm not saying that they support a Bush presidency. We want to encourage, not discourage, them.

I'm not sure why you can't be enthusiastically pro-Dean or whomever without bashing or disincentivizing others in the party. Tell me how that is a success strategy for winning the GE?

[stickdog]

36. Good question (nt)

[FubarFly]

20. I think because of it's inherent anonymity,

the internet in general is a nasty place.

Add that to the normal rancor that occurs during every primary season- coupled with the fact that b*sh is far more horrid than the typical Republican ogre- and what you are seeing here is not surprising.

Primary season is like the Super Bowl for trolls. I try not to take it personally or read too much into it.

[Iverson]

26. I concur.

I would add that this is not confined to the Democratic Party but is a problem that extends to all consitutent groups here.

For my part, I don't hate anybody here. Hell, I haven't even met anyone here, as far as I know. It's all writing, usually under a pseudonym. That's not a good basis for personal acrimony.

Forceful disagreement should be expected, and it's a healthy thing for a democracy. Attacks on motive or character are generally a pretty bad idea, especially when the left should work on healing its rifts.

[Padraig18]

27. I will go on record as agreeing wholeheartedly.

The level and intensity of attacks on candidates and their supporters has reached unacceptable levels. There are candidates I like better than others, obviously, but let me restate my firm belief that each and every one of our candidates would make a vastly superior President, in comparison to the unelected fraud. To 'hate' a candidate on the basis of how his/her supporters conduct themselves in an anonymous, online forum is childish, at best.

:)

[Zynx]

30. After looking at another round of the early morning hatchet jobs, I'm done

All I can say is that we have some fundementally rotten people on this board. They number only about 40 or so and they support almost all the candidates, but they share one common trait: They lie, decieve, twist, contort, and do all manner of unscrupulous activities to bend people their way. These people know damned well who they are and if they don't then they are so far gone I don't know what to say.

One thing I have found though is that the root of the problem here is the fact that people who support a candidate will believe anything or twist anything that may hurt another candidate. THIS IS DISPICABLE. Those who participate in this practice are the lowest scum I have ever seen. All they do is lie and what's worse is that I'm not sure that they know they're lying, but if they do know and they continue to do it it is even lower.

[PATRICK]

31. Need IRL fistfights

At least that worked when only men had the right to vote. Cyberspace as an arena has its drawbacks. Step back and take a breath. Our candidates are not superhuman and certainly not villains, but their followers are most certainly not iron-stomached skilled politicans. Of course, the stakes and the painful frustrations of vital concern and vast consequences are playing havoc with the nerves.

Most politicans don't hold grudges- unless you are a Nixon or a Bush.
Taking the licks is part of the process except for the overshadowing cloud of GOP dirty campaigning, whose poison, I think, is the real spoiler in trying to get perspective here.

Many people seem to have thin skins when their ox is Gored. Face to face I think those tensions might be easier resolved. For pete's sake let's do our best and let the voters decide a primary or too! I don't think we make up a voting block and jousting here doesn't bring anything to the general electorate or the respective campaigns and should be taken with a lot better humor because of that. Talking of persons instead of issues is a sensitive step I don't think a lot of people have made with the difference noted.

I personally don't hate anyone, except that the danger of self sabotaging, or fear and resentment within the party should be the vice we abhor the most. I really believe I don't hate Bush. He just needs to be sent packing before we all die. The cure is for a growth in social responsibility and democracy not romance over a messiah. Our treatment of our "rivals" is nothing compared to the real contest out there against the GOP and for the electorate. If we are at that nerve wracking stage of having Freeperville style flame wars I hope we can survive this overboiling with a little rationality and less censorship. Nerve not fear. Comradeship not fatal partisanhip. Not here.

Take a breath and visit the lair of the orcs at Free Republic or beat your head against a wall. There is plenty of rage and heartbreak for everyone or are we living in a Bush-free Eden all of a sudden?

[Zynx]

32. Shameless self-kick

*Kick*

[Castilleja]

34. Kick

:kick: