Rant; SUPPORT THE TROOPS

[nadinbrzezinski]

(Note did post this originally in GD, but there are nugets in here of what is going on... and how the propaganda has been cataupulted... politically significant)

So I went to a very local and overall VERY GOOD speculative fiction convention... and since I WRITE military Sci Fi and the program PROMISED research methods and theory and practice of the craft silly me I expected the panelists to know what they were talking about... Ok will avoid mentioning names or actual series, but a horror writer, who writes in the teen market, an alternative history (he was the cloest actually) writer and a Horror modern writer, do not experts make.

So I was fuming over that but was seating at the front and not like I could stand up and leave... here is what got my blood boiling... (apart of the fact they had no clue about the field, logistics, laws of warfare which became quite obvious, or for that matter any clue about actual war)

No you don't need to serve to do a good job writing this.. but it helps, and if yuo don't, go ASK... people will talk... what got me going was when one of them said that we were tying the hands of our military by actually having some Rules and Regulations regarding torture. Lets just say in the talk back section I laid into this clown hard... the vets in the audience said that I became that DI I once was when I trained my Red Cross Cadets... they just said we saw a DI... trust me that is a persona I keep hidden, it is not a nice persona (and yes as a MEXICAN Red Cross volunteer, I was technically part of the army for seven years, so yes they learned close order drill...)

So any way when I was done... this guy was shaken... and the vets (and one active duty member) were on their feet aplauding... for I said in ways that as one former squid put it, things they all wanted to say... oh and kept my imitation of a marine (yes I can swear like one) barely under control, some of it did come out.

Of course what truly set me off on this road I have not visited in over ten years (That Hyde side of my persona) was when he said, "like you've served!" Oh boy I have not felt that much rage. But what was so disconcerting was, (for him) at the end, when all my fury was spent... the vets told his guy, what she said, and one vet who retired showed this clown his ID as a retiree... we also told him to go get a fucknig clue and go enlist.

No we were not nice!

The organizers apologized and promised to either not have this forum next year, or get people who are actually qualified, and the active guy, we went for coffee, there is no way I could drive at that moment... he said what really had me and is still making me choke up... that is what support the troops actually means... standing up and saying what needs to be said, at the risk of social ridicule. he was also a JAG officer, and added... I thought only brainiacs like me cared for that shit any longer, refreshing to see that on the outside! So I told him what I did, and one of the many hats, he got it... but he was happy somebody was willing to go to bat on this issue with those who have been programed by FOX et al to think there is nothing wrong with Abu Graib.

Oh and none of us intends to buy the fiction, if you get my drift... we were pissed...

[mattclearing]

1. Recommended.

Great story.

I'm glad to hear that people are being openly challenged in public. This kind of thing seems to be happening more often lately, and it pleases me to no end.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. It needs to happen,

but what worries me is the power propaganda has, Science Fiction writers and readers trend liberal, and overall they were liberal, but on this point, it was the talking points from Fox.

[mattclearing]

6. The alternative viewpoint has gotten little real support.

Most people agree that torture is a horrible thing, but you don't see many people saying why torture is not a valid tactic for gaining information.

Torture is wrong because it involves inhumane treatment that we would not want befalling our own soldiers. We basically cede the moral high ground to brutal terrorists when we beat, sodomize and/or humiliate individuals without so much as a trial.

It legitimizes illegitimate tactics and ensures our soldiers will be treated with maximum cruelty should they be captured.

Not to mention the fact that any terrorist worth their salt isn't going to break.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Actually the way to break that terrarits

takes time.. we did it with the Japanese during WW II... the expert was a marine Officer, who truly became their best buddy... asked how they were doing, if their injuries were taken care off, and about family. That is how he got the inforation out, and it worked. We forgot that lesson

[mattclearing]

9. Once people see that we are not the monsters they were told to expect,

they open up.

Sadly, they don't see that so often anymore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Part of the problem I will contend is our very violent media

as a writer of military sci fi I have a hell of a time selling. Why? I don't sanitize and I do kill and main my major characters... people are killed in war.

And people have been trained by our gory media that torture works, we know better, but that is another story

[mattclearing]

11. Lost actually did a bit about this.

The popular sci-fi show about castaways had a pivotal scene that clearly depicted the folly of torture last season.

There are people out there willing to change the perception of this, and many other issues.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. BattleStar Galactica

is taking full force the issues of civilian control, command and control and the rights of the military.

So there is hope

[malmapus]

17. Was about to bring that up

That episode with Starbuck doing the torture and not getting anywhere, then the President stepping in to stop it came to mind, along with a few others. Am really impressed with the series and how the do touch on these topics.

[bluedawg12]

2. experts on torture condemn it for two reasons:

1.) With enough torture you could get a ham sandwhich to tell you it's "secrets." But you may not get any useful information with torture.

2.) The troops fear that it will come back to bite them in the event they are ever captured.

-but, some would say- in Iraq all rules of war are out and captured troops or civilians are beheaded. true.

But, this is likely not the only conflict our troops will deploy to, and in the future better to have some conventions than not.

and I think there is a third reason:

it is purely and simply inhumane and a slippery slope and the troops will carry any misdeeds with themselves and in their conscience for ever.

Maybe a fourth reasons-

when caught on tape only the privates and sargents serve time, the upper eschelon never pay the price. Think Lindy E.

I am not sure what constitutes torture, and I am all for getting information out of field combatants but it has to be done professionally and there have been standards since WWI and WWII- and those were nasty, ugly, cruel wars too.

Must a' been something with the moon- I went to a seminar last night and ran into some living breathing brain washed neoconmaroons and boy they made my blood boil. But, i spoke up too, no more sitting quietly while people spread misinformation about the state of the world and my country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. On the issue of future conflicts

true story, Gulf War one, a group of Iraqi POWs surrendered to a DRONE... they knew they would be treated humanely

WW II, German parents told their sons that if they had to surrender to do such to the Americans because they were treated fairly during WW I.

How many lives were saved (on both sides) nobody will know but some historians put in then tens of thousands.

That will not happen in the next conflict we fight... people are now fighting to the end.

[bluedawg12]

5. I know- our uberleader policies are putting our troops

in harms way.

Yea, in WWII the Germans begged to surrender to US troops rather than the Russ.

You stood up for your convictions- bravo!

it's usually the chickenhawks that take a tough pose. But, still it's just a pose.

I have great faith and respect for our young troops, they are serving in a hell hole and the loud mouth desk jocket REMF's with their silk shirts and gold cuff links are safe at home writing articles for mag rags.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. None of them had even served

not that this is a requirement mind you, iirc heinleind did not either... but Star Ship Troopers was good fiction, well done, and quite anti war in many ways

[bluedawg12]

13. Star Ship troopers was a good film

I liked the Chronicals of Riddick, too.

I am getting off topic sorry. :toast:

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Read the book

when we came out of the theater, we took a kid we mentored to, to see it, and when we walked out I walked into the bookstore and boubght the book and gave it to thei kid.

The movie dealt with the action flick aspect mostly, but not the politics, you need to read the book.

[bobbieinok]

21. I told students to read the book rather than seeing the movie

they stared

I felt about this like I felt about the BBC series on Pride and Prejudice.....it was NOT the book characters (the Darcy of the book is NOT the Darcy of the video)

I told students Starship Troopers was a classic, the source of very interesting discussions, eg 'is it necessary to have served in the military in order to vote?' etc

the book poses some interesting questions, and NO college students I talked to even realized there was a book much less interesting/important controversies

(60+ retired college prof)

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. It is sad I think that kids are alergic to readying

another thign that came out in the con was books are dangerous, that is the message mamy are getting

[Love Bug]

19. I have a story

25 years ago my (then) husband was stationed in the Army in Friedberg, Germany. We rented an apartment from a national who lived with her brother. The brother, who spoke English, was an old man who had fought in the German Army during WWII. I recall him telling me when the end of the war came he made sure he was captured by the Americans because he knew he would be treated better by us than by the Russians.

[welshTerrier2]

14. speaking the truth wherever it needs to be spoken

we cannot stand on social convention ... we have to speak out whenever others peddle their lies and their ignorance ...

great job, nadinbrzezinski !! ... you were both courageous and patriotic ... don't ever let the bastards get away with their lies ...

i know that feeling about feeling all shaken up after speaking the truth; it feels bad but it feels great too ...

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Oh that social convention no longer worries me

but I was chocked up by this guy, this is what suporting the troops means, why? They cannot say what I said, UCMJ and all

[Love Bug]

18. Good for you!

Wish I'd heard it.

As an attendee of many SF conventions I've observed panelists are usually not experts on their subject but just enthusiastic volunteers willing to do the panel.

That said...

I'm glad you didn't hold back. The folks on that panel and the non-vets in the audience needed to hear the truth about why torture is wrong. Good for you for standing up for the present and future troops who are going to have to suffer for the crimes of this administration.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Oh I volunteered for the next local con

figured time to fight that with actually being on a pannel

[PuraVidaDreamin]

23. if only we could get c-span book Saturday to film it!

Outstanding!