looky here: northcom already planning for martial law

[Lerkfish]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/10/11/disaster.force/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. Northern Command is considering establishing a new military unit capable of quick response to major natural disasters, like hurricanes, floods or earthquakes, according to NorthCom officials familiar with the internal discussions about the concept.

(snip)

The plan is being described as analogous to contingency combat forces, like the Ready Brigade of the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, which is always on standby to deploy within 18 hours.

(snip)

Senior NorthCom military commanders have been told in recent weeks to start developing operational concepts, a major task being the airlift of military and medical assets, the official said.

(snip)

But recent base closures have reduced some of the military's medical capacity, and war games have shown that it would be overwhelmed during a large pandemic, the official added.

(edited to fix link and missing type)

[texpatriot2004]

1. Thanks for this info these evil bastards don't care what we think

Senior NorthCom military commanders have been told in recent weeks to start developing operational concepts, a major task being the airlift of military and medical assets, the official said.

[fasttense]

2. Oh great, a set up for a military coup. n/t

[Telly Savalas]

5. That must be it.

After all, a cigar is never just a fucking cigar.

[zann725]

11. That's probably the REAL reason the Nat'l. Guard was sent abroad...

so that the REAL military could "police" here at home...during the quite "frequent" naturally-occurring "disasters" which seems to have been increasing in a frequency unparalleled in at least the last 50 years I recall.

Certainly the much-hyped "pandemic" Avian flu could be the first "test" of military containment of huge segments of our own population (if we don't count N.O.).

Regarding the Avian flu however, I was discussing the subject with an elderly Asian woman at my gym last night, who told me it's been a "common" illness in Asia for YEARS...but the numbers of people who actually die from it are as low as currently reported. She told me that the Avian flu usually occurs in rural areas, where families consider chickens "part of the family," and keep them indoor... resulting in infection to humans in the house. Though clearly from the past low death rate, it is NOT the "serious" pandemic issue that this Disaster-Loving Admin. hypes it to be. If you watched the MSM last night, you would've seen world-wide health experts (INCLUDING a U.S. health official) meeting in Asia yesterday to inspect some chickens, and the potential "health" danger there. What was particularly curious was that ALL "officials" walking among the potentially "dangerous" chickens...wore only CLOTH lab coats, and CLOTH mouth "masks" to protect them from the allegedly HIGHLY contagious, dangerous Avian flu. PLEEEESE people...if Avian flu was THAT serious, would all these highly-knowledge medical experts be walking among these chickens with only a CLOTH mouth "mask" on...and not a HASMET suit in sight!

[leftchick]

3. I wonder if any Democrats in congress are aware of this?

And if they care.

[Lerkfish]

4. they should be made aware, immediately. nt

[Coastie for Truth]

6. Old News--

See .

This must be strictly limited to search and rescue and to infrastructure (water, electric, telecom, roads & highways, rail, airports), and medical type work -- as a "Mutual Assistance" backup to the Guard under the strict command and control of the Governor and the Governor's National Guard and strictly limited by Posse Comitatus.

See:
1. and

2. , and

3. .

This is the sick and evil result of Bush-Cheney-Rove. Bush-Cheney-Rove have completely torn asunder the social contract in the United States. Pure evil. Did we actually have this fear of our government under Clinton or Carter or Eisenhower or Truman or Roosevelt?

[verdalaven]

44. Reagan

Last time I actively stockpiled canned goods was during the Reagan years.

[Coastie for Truth]

45. I don't have that luxury--

I live between the Calaveras/Hayward Fault and the San Andreas Fault --- in the Guadalupe River - Coyote Creek - Alviso Spillway Flood Plain ("Silicon Valley" used to be an estuary) ---- and I don't think Bush's FEMA will do crap for us -- w/ or w/out the Army (and our National Guard is in Iraq ;( )

[sendero]

7. Natural disasters.

Not political disasters. There is a difference, and god why are so many people around here just plain paranoid?

[raccoon]

8. Well, I don't know who said this, but

"just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everybody's not out to get you."

Some are, that's for sure.

[belle]

9. Then again, the corollary: Just because some are out to get you doesn't

mean you aren't also paranoid...

[chuck8314]

10. Hate to mention this, BUT

aren't you the same folks who were screaming that the Feds response to Hurricane Katrina wasn't good enough? Well, now they're developing plans and you're whining about the plans.

I've no doubt this post will get me banned. I've seen people booted for less, but I got to say it: Try to focus, folks. You can't have it both ways. Either you want a disaster plan or you don't. You can't complain about not having one, and then complain ABOUT having one.

[unpossibles]

12. well

I would think there would be other options to an efficient natural disaster plan than sending in the military, right?

Personally, I feel that the military is not and was not meant to be an internal police force.

[Coastie for Truth]

13. Historically, that was the role of the "Militia"

and if we look at Pre-Revolutionary History (and Pre-WW I history) that was the National Guard - and the Volunteer Fire Department (which, if you go the Fire Fighter Museum in Philadelphia, near Independence Hall, you will see was called the "Fire Militia").

What is the "MILITIA" today?
1. Your Volunteer Fire Department and Volunteer EMS (which, with "Mutual Assistance Agreements" and the "Incident Command System" can be effective in medium disasters).

2. Your community, your family and neighbors -- if trained.

1) - This is 16-20 hours of training. You are not enlisting in or joining anything. This is training from (usually) your local Fire Department.

2) - This is a collection of Disaster Services - everything from "Earthquake Proofing" and "Blizzard Proofing" and personal survivl, through Automatic Electronic Defibrillator and First Aid and Pet First Aid to the bureaucracy of disaster services. No obligation to sign on as a volunteer or go to New Orleans if you just take the courses.

And in the Earthquake Belt we tie these together through our proven "Incident Command System."

In the "Earthquake" and "Forest Fire" belts we have the Incident Command System - that co-ordinates everybody from the Campfire Kids through the Civil Air Patrol and Coast Guard Auxiliary and Urban Search and Rescue Corps and Wilderness/Mountain Search and Rescue Corps and Citzenc Corps/CERT to local Police, Fire, EMS, the National Guard, and the NGO's (Red Cross, Salvation Army, St. Vincent de Paul, Southern Baptist Mass Feeding). It's called "Incident Command System" -- and it works. The key to the "Incident Command System" is that anything beyond serious enoughy to call 911 is just too big fou you to handle alone. And, the Incident Command System brings some degree of order outof the chaos surrounding an accident or disaster.

1.

2.

3.

4.

The Incident Command System is a proven system - and it works - and we have a National Guard (which is NOT the Federal Military).

So, get up off your your couch, put the "remote" down -- and get yourself trained and qualified -- the life you save may be yours - or MINE.

And, if my 64 year old, severe osteoporotic, 90 pound wife can take the and the - inluding First Air, Automatic Electronic Defibrillator, and CPR -- you can too.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coastie for Truth]

22. ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT

Click back to . and realize - these were the very assets that Bush and Chertoff and "Brownie" kept out of New Orleans-- see for a list of assets stopped by Bush-Chertoff-Brown.

[laugle]

32. You are soooo right. Instead of Bush focusing on

preventive measures for this flu, it was really disturbing to see him jump immediately to quarantine, and martial law.

The poster above is naieve. We are not paranoid at all, cynical yes.

For Bush not to allow other pharmacutical companies to manufacture flu vaccine, except for two in the U.S. is just pain dangerous.

[Cookie wookie]

34. Whatever happened to research to discover new medicines

and isolation wards in hospitals. This is what happened: those things aren't part of the plan for the * Inc/Pentagon/Corporate coup, so that's why they aren't on his list. And why does he mention using the military so much now? Because his support is in the tank and they have to hurry to finish off their master plan.

Notice how he goes to NORTHCOM when Rita is about to hit. Doesn't stay in Washington where he can direct things. There he sits with all the US military Northern Command, who by the way couldn't respond to 9/11.

[newyawker99]

15. Hi chuck8314!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[chuck8314]

16. Thanks for the welcome, newyawker99

I admit to being able to think for myself and not simply agreeing with every post I read here, like a robot. I also think your welcome might be a bit premature. The above traits don't engender longevity on this forum.

Still, I stand by what I said. You folks complain about a lack of an emergency plan and then complain when one is proposed. There are plenty of National Guard not in Iraq to handle anything that might arise in this nation short of an outside invasion. That dog don't hunt, as you well know.

[Norquist Nemesis]

17. Welcome chuck!

:hi:

One thing to remember is that one person's OMG!!! followed by a few other people doesn't mean "You folks" are all in agreement. :)

We're glad to have you here and it's good to see fresh faces jumping in to participate! :) But it does sound like you're coming in with a chip on your shoulder and a foregone conclusion you'll be banned.

JMHO.

As to the 'plan', well...yes, they should have a plan. I don't think anyone would argue having a plan is a bad thing. But, as they say, the devil's in the details. And plans that originate from military actions here in the US make some of us very, very, nervous.

[Norquist Nemesis]

18. oops!

dreaded double post. sorry.

[July]

20. Uh-huh.

If you think people at DU agree with every post we read, you need to buy a clue.

Don't tell us what we're complaining about. It's never been about a lack of a plan. It's about a lack of a response when a plan already exists. That's known as incompetence. Or you could call it failure. Failure with a deadly price.

Put down the Kool-Aid.

[windbreeze]

28. A point...or two

"There are plenty of National Guard not in Iraq to handle anything that might arise in this nation short of an outside invasion"...isn't that exactly the point we are trying to make???? That it is the N.Guard's duty to respond, WITHIN THEIR OWN STATE, to any disaster, unless requested by the Governor of another state to help...BUT... NOLA's NG was in Iraq, along with the specialized equipment used for flood response...and they had to request NG units from Miss, GA. and other states...There are plenty of regular troops sitting on bases right here in the US now, that could replace ALL the NG serving in Iraq...so why aren't they there instead?

Don't confuse the issues here...NG response is ONE THING...FEDERALIZED response to ANY situation, UNDER BUSH'S ORDER, IS something else entirely..NOLA...WASN'T responded to, in any way, in a timely manner...so yes, there IS reason to complain, about it, and the complaints are justified...all the agencies that normally respond, have been systemically gutted financially, so their help is about useless, as NOLA showed us...and I certainly am against FEDERAL troops OR ARMED MERCENARIES responding to FORCE quarantine for a flu epidemic, in any state of this nation..Bring home all the NG units, and let them do the job, they were trained for...

Wake up and smell the coffee..Bush and the R's have full and total control of all arms of this gov't...Legislative, Executive, and Judicial...now you feel we should give Bush TOTAL CONTROL of the MILITARY, to USE against US, IF and WHEN he deems necessary????You do know what that's called, right??? A DICTATORSHIP!! and until he has ALL that control...he isn't going to be happy...

His intentions to put the NG under the auspices of the regular military got shot down in DC...so send them overseas...then the people will beg me to use regular military for what their NG was intended..
Seems there's a method to the madness...'eh?? (none are as blind, as those who won't see)
windbreeze

[jbnow]

41. Except wasn't the Coast Guard awesome?

They were right in there doing rescues.
Besides the local police trying to use their own boats there was only the Coast Guard for way too long. I can't recall how they avoided being stymied by any red tape.

If FEMA had done their job and let food and water in right away and helped people get out...we'd never have seen this horror.

In the day or two after the earthquake they were showing angry people blocking roads and furious that no help had come yet. (I'm sure they didn't know how widespread the devastation was). I realized how normal a reaction that was...and really started wondering if the delay in NOLA was HOPING to see mass unrest and rioting so they'd have an excuse to go in with military.

bush REALLY REALLY wants this and wants congress to hand it to him and he must never, never get it.

[area51]

42. That's amusing, Chuck.

I don't think anyone on this board agrees "... with every post I read here, like a robot." I think the people who tend to march in lockstep (or is that goosestep) would be the people who post on Freak Republic & Loosey-Ann's websites.

[July]

19. Do your homework.

The feds already can use the military in disasters, but not for law enforcement (that pesky Posse Comitatus Act gets in the way).

You're quick to call others whiners. Why don't YOU try to focus, and check out FEMA and DHS.

There's already a disaster plan. We're not complaining about not having one, we're complaining about THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S INCOMPETENCE IN USING THE ONE WE HAVE.

[chuck8314]

23. Can't argue that the Feds fumbled

the ball in New Orleans, but they also recovered that ball. Blanco and Nagin fumbled and lost the ball. Neither followed their own established emergency plan, at least one of which (New Orleans) was on the cities website.

This isn't a Democrat or Republican thing. It crosses party lines. As was said here and on other sites by some people, there's plenty of blame to go around. The difference between New Orleans and Louisiana's reaction to a devastating hurricane and Mississippi's reaction is night and day, and it can be said that Mississippi did a much better job. In fact, Mississippi suffered almost as much as Louisiana and they did a vastly superior job, to the point that the media mostly ignored them, probably because they had things under control and there wasn't enough sensationalism in the form of horror stories and looting to satiate the public.

Texas, too, did a much better job. So, what happened in Louisiana and why? Answer that question and maybe we'll all get to the crux of the matter. Sorry, drifting off topic.

On topic, there are plenty of National Guard in this country to handle any emergency, and as was said, our military is uniquely capable of providing assistance when necessary, and SHOULD provide such assistance when the need arises. Should they be used as police? They were in various places during the riots in the late '60's. As best I can tell, we survived that useage. And, yes, they were regular military, not National Guard (who were also used).

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[July]

31. Last I checked the locals and state people showed up.

Too bad the feds took days.

Oh, and that's "this isn't a DemocratIC or Republican thing." "Democrat thing" is a dead giveaway to the regulars here of where you'd be more comfortable.

Yeah, the media ignored Mississippi's success story. Uh-huh. Not what I read. Same goes for Texas, which had a smaller level hit and tried to respond AFTER seeing how New Orleans went, with Bush desperately seeking a Hurricane Mulligan.

The feds are already authorized to use the military for everything but law enforcement. I'm not talking about the National Guard, and you're muddying the waters bringing them in.

Face the facts, which we are familiar with. FEMA and Bush didn't do what they could have and should have with the protocols already in place. In other words, they're incompetent. Your unsupported claims don't convince me.

[Irish Mastiff]

46. You are wrong about Mississippi.

They didn't do a much better job by any stretch. The evacuation of the Mississippi coast was nowhere near as effective as that of Louisiana. The disaster response im Mississippi was just as bad as Louisiana. You just are not hearing about it.

The 221 death toll in Mississippi is laughable.
Read this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4827653

[Bridget Burke]

24. The National Guard is always sent in first....

To do rescue work & patrol for looters. I live on the Gulf Coast & I know the drill. Unfortunately, your president has the Guard dying overseas for his rich oil buddies.

FEMA was the major federal agency for dealing with disasters & usually did quite well. Until Bush put them under Homeland Security & began putting idiots in charge. (Back in 2001, they said: "We know he's not too bright. He'll appoint smart people!")

Regional disaster plans are developed by City, County & State officials. It would be great to involve the Feds, but they don't need 100% control. Hurricanes happen & the special vulnerability of NOLA was known to anyone with half a brain.

It would be great if the military could play a supporting role, but we don't need them for law enforcement. If the regular military doesn't have enough to do--send the overseas. Let the National Guard & Reserves come home. Or let them ALL come home & stop flushing our tax money away in an illegal war. We have better uses for the money here.

I'm focused, thank you.

[Cookie wookie]

33. It was the Republican underfunding of FEMA

*'s appointment of incompetent cronies, and the creation of that monster useless tax money sucking Homeland Security then putting FEMA under their bureaucratic fat and flabby hand that created the problems with FEMA's response.

We don't have to give up our freedom, civil rights, even the lives of innocent Americans order to be safe.

[laugle]

38. BOOT!!! just kidding.....welcome

[madfloridian]

49. You can take care of people without military control

Our country has always done that. The military can provide structure and organization in helping the people, but we need an agency in charge.

Why are so many people eager to give up their rights when storms come? We never really did before.

I never saw National Guard do anything during our 3 hurricanes last year except to provide aid.

I never saw them walking the streets with guns drawn. I never did.

General Tommy Franks said people might be so afraid that they would willingly give up their constitutional rights. He was right.

This is the administration of fear.

[The Magistrate]

21. As A Matter Of Curiousity, Mr. Lerkfish

How is this martial law, or indeed, anything to get particuarly excited about at all?

The use of military forces for disaster relief is a practice of long standing, and encountered throughout the world without any particuolarly objectionable results. Military forces have capabilities quite useful in such situations. They provide a body of energetic and disciplined personnel; they have the capability to move large quantities of supplies and people. It would be negligent of a government not to make use of this resource in emergencies. It is particularly foolish that the current regime has devoted the militia forces based in the several states that normally handle such situations abroad in combat, but that is not going to be changed by them soon, anmd the practical need remains.

[Lerkfish]

25. LOL! I already know whenever you use that form of address,

a supercilious upbraiding is about to occur.

>>How is this martial law, or indeed, anything to get particuarly excited about at all?

--- well, they plan to do it, whether it violates posse comitas or not. They've stated as much, and have ordered contingency plans. They've used the threat of it on unrelated disasters -- hurricanes and bird flu. They obviously want to do it, regardless of the precipitate cause, that end result is what they want. Why? I'm afraid it will be too late once they begin martial law to argue whether its something to get excited about.
Do you feel comfortable with the patriot act? with torture renditions of prisoners not charged? of detained people here and abroad not being allowed access to lawyers?
And do you think it will be any BETTER under military control?

>>The use of military forces for disaster relief is a practice of long standing, and encountered throughout the world without any particuolarly objectionable results. Military forces have capabilities quite useful in such situations. They provide a body of energetic and disciplined personnel; they have the capability to move large quantities of supplies and people. It would be negligent of a government not to make use of this resource in emergencies. It is particularly foolish that the current regime has devoted the militia forces based in the several states that normally handle such situations abroad in combat, but that is not going to be changed by them soon, anmd the practical need remains.

--- Again, those previous uses of the military occured WITHOUT declaring martial law. And it worked just fine under other administrations. Why does THIS administration seem to think disaster planning can only occur by occluding states rights and evaporating posse comitas?
I'm not saying don't use the military if necessary, I'm saying they are planning to do this thing: Martial Law. Either wake up and smell the napalm or don't. They plan to do this. The question is: why?
disasters are not sufficient precipient events to suspend all laws and the constitution.
Disaster we will always have. Once we go to martial law, there is no legal recourse to return to normalcy except at the whim of the dictator who instituted martial law, if he suddenly decides he didn't want total control and returns our govt. back to us.

that will happen.....riiiight?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[windbreeze]

29. Perhaps

The real problem is, we don't trust Bush..?? Perhaps we have seen how he goes about something whole hog..there is no medium..all or nothing...you are with us, or you are against us...bring it on...etc., etc.,
Do you trust him to use the feds only as a way to relieve suffering in time of disaster...or is it possible..that it wouldn't stop there?
Did we see the way the evacuees from NOLA, were contained in out of the way, behind wire, with armed guards detainment camps...??? or not??

Don't misunderstand me, I am not attempting to argue against anyone's valid points at using the Federal troops to bring aid, or undermine their ability to do so..BUT...this is Bush we have in the WH...not Clinton..and I don't trust him as far as I can throw him..and personally, I think they have just about enough power...once we are snookered into allowing a situation to be activated, "for our protection"...it's next to impossible to get it deactivated..after all, we still have the "Patriot Act", only now, it's fine tuned, and we still have the the "War in Iraq" the we want to fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them here war...both of which we can't seem to get out of..
windbreeze

[The Magistrate]

40. There Is No Particular Reason To Trust the Critter, Ma'am

But the claim of evacuees from New Orleans by and large being held behind barbed wire in isolated locations is unsupported.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

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[Cookie wookie]

36. Bush considers changes to Posse Comitatus Act

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/politics/3377358

Articles on this abound.

[Lerkfish]

37. thanks.

I appreciate it. Thought I'd stepped into bizarro world for a moment there.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[texpatriot2004]

39. What's that Hutchison crook done now? With the weather act?

Do you have a link?

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[Cookie wookie]

50. self deleted