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If we're not gonna' get a Universal or Single Payer Health Care System...

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nickshepDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 02:58 PM
Original message
If we're not gonna' get a Universal or Single Payer Health Care System...
Edited on Thu Dec-08-05 03:03 PM by nickshepDEM
Any time soon. How about a Voucher Program? Similar to what Rahm Emanuel proposed on MTP a couple months ago.

"You got a job, you got health care." Give the uninsured vouchers for use in the insurance system that covers federal employees. Basic coverage, nothing fancy.
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. You get fired, you go off and die.
It is either universal coverage, or social darwinism, as far as I am concerned.


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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. But what about COBRA? You can get fired and get COBRA
What's that? It costs hundreds of dollars a month depending on your plan? Oh yeah, that's right you don't have a job. Well, so much for that idea. :eyes:
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. You misunderstood
You go out and GET A COBRA.

You kiss it and then put you head between your legs and ...well, you know the rest.


tg
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. no. i think we've got to do it the canadian way. i checked out
how much it would cost if my husband had to retire early. it would be quite costly to take over the kind of coverage we have now. and what we have is not free. we pay a portion which goes up every year along with deductibles and co-payments.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. BTW - don't buy the argument "People have to wait in Canada"
Edited on Thu Dec-08-05 03:29 PM by Coastie for Truth
Canada's health care system ofers lower costs per capita by two steps--
    1. "Rationing" - which is what all of the Federalist Society and RWers and Neocons and Dr. Frist and Newt Gingrich seize on.
      That is a phony argument


    2. "Overhead" - Canada's system has much lower overhead - with different forms, billing clerks, 1-800 numbers in South Asia, PIN numbers, etc. All of that Administrative Overhead adds cost.


References - Coastie gives you references

    * Himmelstein DU, Woolhandler S, Wolfe SM., Administrative waste in the U.S. health care system in 2003: the cost to the nation, the states, and the District of Columbia, with state-specific estimates of potential savings. Int J Health Serv. 2004;34(1)-79-86.

    * Woolhandler S, Campbell T, Himmelstein DU.. Health care administration in the United States and Canada: micromanagement, macro costs. Int J Health Serv. 2004;34(1)-65-78.
      Int J Health Serv. 2004;34(1):65-78. Related Articles, Links

      Health care administration in the United States and Canada: micromanagement, macro costs.

      Woolhandler S, Campbell T, Himmelstein DU.

      Harvard Medical School, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA.

      A decade ago, U.S. health administration costs greatly exceeded Canada's. Have the computerization of billing and the adoption of a more business-like approach to care cut administrative costs? For the United States and Canada, the authors calculated the 1999 administrative costs of health insurers, employers' health benefit programs, hospitals, practitioners' offices, nursing homes, and home care agencies; they analyzed published data, surveys of physicians, employment data, and detailed cost reports filed by hospitals, nursing homes, and home care agencies; they used census surveys to explore time trends in administrative employment in health care settings. Health administration costs totaled at least dollar 294.3 billion, dollar 1,059 per capita, in the United States vs. dollar 9.4 billion, dollar 307 per capita, in Canada. After exclusions, health administration accounted for 31.0 percent of U.S. health expenditures vs. 16.7 percent of Canadian. Canada's national health insurance program had an overhead of 1.3 percent, but overhead among Canada's private insurers was higher than in the U.S.: 13.2 vs. 11.7 percent. Providers' administrative costs were far lower in Canada. Between 1969 and 1999 administrative workers' share of the U.S. health labor force grew from 18.2 to 27.3 percent; in Canada it grew from 16.0 percent in 1971 to 19.1 percent in 1996. Reducing U.S. administrative costs to Canadian levels would save at least dollar 209 billion annually, enough to fund universal coverage.


    * Woolhandler S, Campbell T, Himmelstein DU., Costs of health care administration in the United States and Canada. N Engl J Med. 2003 Aug 21;349(8)-768-75.
      Costs of health care administration in the United States and Canada.
      N Engl J Med. 2003 Aug 21;349(8)-768-75.
      Woolhandler S, Campbell T, Himmelstein DU.

      Department of Medicine, Cambridge Hospital and Harvard Medical School, Cambridge, Mass, USA.

      BACKGROUND: A decade ago, the administrative costs of health care in the United States greatly exceeded those in Canada. We investigated whether the ascendancy of computerization, managed care, and the adoption of more businesslike approaches to health care have decreased administrative costs. METHODS: For the United States and Canada, we calculated the administrative costs of health insurers, employers' health benefit programs, hospitals, practitioners' offices, nursing homes, and home care agencies in 1999. We analyzed published data, surveys of physicians, employment data, and detailed cost reports filed by hospitals, nursing homes, and home care agencies. In calculating the administrative share of health care spending, we excluded retail pharmacy sales and a few other categories for which data on administrative costs were unavailable. We used census surveys to explore trends over time in administrative employment in health care settings. Costs are reported in U.S. dollars. RESULTS: In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least 294.3 billion dollars in the United States, or 1,059 dollars per capita, as compared with 307 dollars per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada's national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada's private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers' administrative costs were far lower in Canada. Between 1969 and 1999, the share of the U.S. health care labor force accounted for by administrative workers grew from 18.2 percent to 27.3 percent. In Canada, it grew from 16.0 percent in 1971 to 19.1 percent in 1996. (Both nations' figures exclude insurance-industry personnel.) CONCLUSIONS: The gap between U.S. and Canadian spending on health care administration has grown to 752 dollars per capita. A large sum might be saved in the United States if administrative costs could be trimmed by implementing a Canadian-style health care system. Copyright 2003 Massachusetts Medical Society


    * Himmelstein DU, Woolhandler S.Perils of prediction in U.S./Canadian comparisons. Health Aff (Millwood). 1992 Winter;11(4):255-7


TAKE HOME AT THE END OF THE DAY: EVEN WITHOUT RATIONING - 30% OF THE COST OF US HEALTH CARE IS BUREAUCRACY, FRAUD, WASTE, ABUSE, DUPLICATION AND DEFENSIVE MEDICINE
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. i know how it works. my sister has lived in canada for more than
31 years. she also posts on DU and a while ago we had a thread about it and she explained exactly how it works.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. The tie to employment is an historical fluke - partially
1. Before WW2 and the dawn of high tech medicine health insurance was cheap. Some employers (unionized) offered it, some unions offered it, and some membership-fraternal organizations offered it (my dad told me the Free masons, the Knights of Columbus, the Slovenian National Beneficial Alliance, etc.) offered.

2. During WW2 - with strict wage controls - health insurance was offered as a way around wage controls. That was Henry J. Kaiser in Oakland CA initially.

3. Both ERISA and the Internal Revenue Code encourage employment related health insurance over other paradigms. But that just locks in a bad system.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. Can you explain this a little more?
Do only the working uninsured get vouchers or do the unemployed also get them? If so, how is this different from universal health care? If not, then what happens to the unemployed?

In either case, what incentive do employers have for providing health care if the government will cover their workers if they don't?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Right, and what backs up those vouchers?
In other words, WHO PAYS THE BILLS????

Better to have universal health insurance than a dumb patchwork system.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. Great idea
I like the idea of a system that gives people a choice better anyway. It sure beats a government run system.
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