WHY does Dean insist on giving Republicans quotes to exploit?

[brentspeak]

Dean's statement the other day is just the latest in a string of hare-brained statements that seem tailor-made for Republican exploitation. WHY didn't he just say "The way that President Bush is running the war...the war can't be won." Has Dean ever heard the word "qualifier" in his life? Does he know how and when to use a qualifier? The Republicans have been completely moribund lately, but they apparently are all riled up and ready for smearing once again, courtesy of Dean's stupidity.

Notice, also, how today's Democratic candidates are avoiding being seen with Dean on the campaign trail?

[xultar]

1. .

:popcorn:

[Loonman]

2. I agree

Leave it to the Dems to blow one golden opportunity after another. No wonder we're always bickering.

[nickshepDEM]

104. Corrrrrecct.

[bahrbearian]

3. That would have work nicely, but Dean said basicly the samething

[ananda]

4. I liked it just the way he said it.

This war cannot be won. Period.

I dare you to tell me a way that it can be won.

Answers on a postcard, please.

[brentspeak]

12. That is not the point

The point is to make it clear in the same sentence that Bush is the reason the war cannot be won. Dean once again failed to include the necessary qualifier at the correct time.

Sure, he might have alluded to Bush and the Republicans elsewhere during his statement; but that's not good enough. Instead, Dean provided the Repubs, and even TV talking heads, with a bit, fat "defeatist-sounding" soundbite.

[mmonk]

38. bush isn't the reason the war cannot be won

The policy is the reason the war cannot be won. More troops, equipment etc, for what? Permanent residency by force. They will keep fighting it.

[AntiCoup2K4]

72. When you say "Bush is the reason", what do you mean?

Are you implying that a "kinder, gentler fascist imperialism", such as the PPI whitewash of PNAC (guaranteed to be the platform of any DLC candidate) would do better?

The fact is, the war was wrong. We cannot win a civil war. Let's get the fuck out.

What's so hard to understand about that?

[BigYawn]

105. Iraq War can be considered to be won if

AFTER 3 YEARS from now,
1. Iraq is stil democratic,
2. AND no bloodbath takes place in form of a civil war,
3. AND less than 15,000 US troops remain (heck we
have troops in Germany after 60 years and in Korea
after 50 years and in Kosovo after many years),
4. AND the Iraqi government is friendly to the US.

Anything is possible but chances are slim.

[Drewskie]

5. Yea

I think Ed Schultz is right about Dean... This is just the latest of a string of dumb statements out of Dean's mouth.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LandOLincoln]

118. So what makes people who

think Howard Dean can do no wrong, and who attack any Democrat who dares suggest otherwise as a closet Repuglican/Fascist/Imperialist blah blah...what makes them any different from the Freepers who think * can do no wrong, and attack any Repug who dares to suggest otherwise as a closet Democrat/Commie/Coward?

You lot seem to feel free to hurl the vilest accusations at fellow Democrats simply because they don't share your ideologies to the letter, yet no one can make even the slightest suggestion that Howard Dean sometimes sticks his foot in his mouth (something Dean himself has at least tacitly acknowledged) without being pilloried.

What's up with that?

[Kahuna]

130. A lot of people here seem to DEMAND a blood oath to Dean...

I'm not in that camp. Dean has a propensity to put his foot in his mouth. I don't think we can afford that liability right now.

[Cha]

108. Oh yeah, and ed schultz is

so fucking smart.

[BjohnsonMN]

6. The war can't be won period

It was a stupid war to get into in the first place, it wouldn't matter if Bush was leading or if another President was leading it it was a war which we could never have won. Of course having Bush lead certainly makes things worse, but lets not pretend like there could have ever been the potential for victory in Iraq. The very act of going to war caused us to lose instantly.

[MrBenchley]

30. So tell us, is Dean lying TODAY when he says it can?

Why do you suppose he is doing damage control and backtracking?

[BjohnsonMN]

110. I think he is wrong, but I don't think it is necessarily a lie

I think anyone who says we can win this war is wrong. I don't like Dean backtracking, but this is not about Dean so much as it is about saying this war can't be won. If you think we can win this war then tell me how. Because I have yet to hear a single person give a coherant answer on what would constitute victory. If we don't even know what victory is then there can be no victory.

[Kahuna]

131. Riiiight.

Because he knows he stepped in it and possibly set us back another forty years in trying to prove that we are not weak on national security. Could be.

[Whoa_Nelly]

7. It's more about MediaWhore hype than any Dem quotes

The pimps and whores of the media seek the Repub feeding frenzy, and go out of their way to sensationalize/sex up their media reports by purposely stirring things up.

Meanwhile, Katrina victims are still homeless, cold, and hungry. Gee....no feeding frenzy in that news sector...it is sooooo not in right now :sarcasm:

[zalinda]

8. It keeps him in the news n/t

[MsAnthropy]

9. Leave him alone he knows what he's doing

[brentspeak]

15. Uh, yeah. Sure

You sound like the hit-and-run posters during the presidential campaign who were defending Kerry's inept campaign. "Do you think you can do a better job than Kerry? He knows what he's doing."

After Kerry lost, those posters' mission was apparently accomplished; we never saw them on DU again.

[Stevepol]

45. Kerry didn't lose. He won by about 3% or 5M votes.

The exit polls are far more reliable than the electronic voting machines and tabulators that counted the votes.

[ruggerson]

111. Get a grip. Kerry lost. n/t

[LandOLincoln]

120. The GAO suggests otherwise.

You think the election was on the up and up? You think Bush won fair and square?

If that's the case, I think you're in the wrong party.

[murray hill farm]

21. At least he isnt afraid to open his mouth....

he says what he believes...doesnt walk on eggshells...so as to not to offend anyone in the world...he is exactly what we need...no we need someone even more able to stand up and speak..and not be so wishy washy in an attempt to not give "them" amunition...that we say nothing at all. He is exactly what the democratic party needs...and more like him are needed..and soon, please.

[MsAnthropy]

37. EXACTLY!

Thank you! Every other dem backs down or worse when they're challenged.

[HardWorkingDem]

57. But what good does it do....

when a person speaks out of passion in ways that make them come back for days and days clarifying the original statements? I mean, all those backing Dean in the primaries knew what he meant and was trying to say when he said that Dems should go after the voters with confederate flags in their trucks. But look at the energy and time that had to be wasted in continual clarification of what he meant.

Not one person is telling Dean not to keep using his backbone or to stop telling the truth, but to do so differently. For crying out loud, when your loving grandma comes up to you and asks if she is gaining weight you certainly don't say, "yep, tons of it, Grandma."
You let her down easy, right?

If we had ten percent of the message discipline that the rethugs do, we'd control all branches of government.

[yurbud]

10. news pulls what they want. When Reid was praising Meirs...

he made a big point of repeat how she was a TRIAL LAWYER (a species on the GOP scapegoat list), and I watched the network news just to see how he emphasized it, but they cut that part out so that it just looked like unqualified praise.

The last part of your post has to do with the DLC. Dean is kryptonite to them. When people actually hear Dean, they tend to like him. When people actually listen to the DLC, they get mad or fall asleep.

[brentspeak]

18. Well, I'm not a huge fan of the DLC

and I was looking forward to Dean and his efforts at getting Democrats in red states elected. But I'm not a big fan of Dean anymore. How can I be when he pumps lifeblood in the Republicans every time out? They were against the ropes!

[janx]

61. They still are up against the ropes. And you can count

on Dean to point that out, every time.

[Kahuna]

132. Yep! He let them off the ropes. No excuse for that. Too bad

the Dems don't have the backbone to kick him to the curb.

[NYCGirl]

135. Off the ropes? Wrong. You are aware that the majority of people in the US

want this war OVER and the troops brought home, aren't you? Wringing your hands about the "white flag" web ad? Well, the GOP just painted themselves into a big ol' corner. Because if they don't start drawing back the troops before the 2006 election, they're screwed.

[Kahuna]

138. Newsflash. People wanted Viet Nam over with too. Yet...

Nixon got re-elected over a peacenik Democrat. Go figure it out.

[NYCGirl]

139. Yep, when Nixon promised he had a "secret" plan to end the war. NT

[Kahuna]

141. Bush has a secret plan too. What's your point?

My point is that Americans seem to more forgiving of a republican president and party that takes us into some dumbassed war, than they are forgiving of what they perceived as weak-kneed, lily-livered, tree hugging liberal who speaks out against the dumb assed war.

[NYCGirl]

144. His secret plan is too late. 60% of this country has opened their eyes.

And, BTW, that "dumbassed war" was voted for by a whole lot of Democrats, too, mostly for political expediency. And that sure helped us in the last election, didn't it? But times are changing.

[Kahuna]

163. Uh huh. Even still if the 2004 election were held today, it's still a

dead heat. Again. Your point? :shrug:

[CTLawGuy]

169. the peacenik democrat whose own party wouldn't back him

after he got the nomination...

[Jai4WKC08]

49. Absolutely no one can avoid saying something "stupid"

...So long as the media is doing the editing. And they usually edit to reinforce whatever image they've already created for each Democrat they target. I saw them do it over an over again during the Clark campaign, and I know they did it to the other candidates too. So we got Dean sounding like a raging lefty radical, just as we got Clark sounding like a stumbling "green" campaigner. And Kerry as a flip-flopper. And way back when, Clinton as poll-driven, "slick" political hack.

There are certain people they like to pick on, and Dean is a favorite. But really, every Democrat is vulnerable.

Yeah, the OP is correct that maybe Dean should have worded this particular remark differently. In hindsight, that easy to say, but it probably wouldn't have mattered; they'd have just found something else to edit to what they wanted, or not reported his words at all. And besides, the only way anyone can perfectly phrase every answer to every question so it can't be edited to mean something else is to read from a script and refuse to take questions. Which is of course what Bush does. We expect more from our leaders.

If we don't change the media, we're screwed.

[dorktv]

150. Remember how the media painted the yell (which was just

a way of pumping up supporters after a disheartening 3rd place in Iowa) as him being "angry?"

The media cares about money, and if claiming Dean is stupid makes them money, then that is what they are going to claim.

[yurbud]

152. this should be near the top of agenda along with election reform and...

getting corporate money out of politics.

[BluegrassDem]

11. Dean has a really big mouth

and that's his problem. How many gaffes and retractions did he have to issue during his presidential campaign? He really has a bad habit of sticking his foot in his mouth. He needs to concentrate on getting us some decent candidates to run for the House and Senate next year! That's where his legacy will be. More action and less words.

[HardWorkingDem]

16. Yes, but...

out of all of Dean's gaffes, how many of them have turned out to be completely true?

Certainly, he could have phrased his recent comments much better and who knows, maybe he was paraphrasing what other insiders have been telling him for quite some time. You know, the chicken shit insiders who are too frightened to come forward and contradict the current Fabricator in Chief.

[Kahuna]

134. This is the reality. And Dean is old enough to know it because..

he witnessed it first hand. The reality is, Dean is likely as right as the anti-war protestors of the 60s were. THOSE people were really brave. They got their heads knocked in for what they believed in. YET, even though they were right about Viet Nam, the media has successfully used them to label the Democratic party as "anti-war" (read: anti, any and all wars). We have been fighting that stigma and losing elections over that stigma for almost forty years. Dean just possibly added another forty years in the wilderness for us. I think it's time for him to go. What we are dealing with is reality versus perception. Unfortunately, perception is what carries the day in politics.

[NYCGirl]

136. And a large majority of people now see this war as WRONG. NT

[Kahuna]

142. And voted for bush anyway, knowing he was a fuck up.... You seem

to think that American voters think rationally. I would have thought that the last five years would have shown you otherwise. Think Nader and Bush versus Al Gore and John Kerry.

[Captain Hilts]

23. He's always been that way. He likes stirring up trouble. That's what...

he did in Vermont on a regular basis.

[leesa]

101. And it works.

[mmonk]

13. yeah, never tell the truth

about them or the war. We could really get in trouble if the American people ever catch on.

[Armstead]

14. They take out the qualifiers to distort him

Dean actually said something like "I wish the administration had read it's history before invading Iraq becauase...."

Agree or disagree, the lack of that context makes it a very different statement, and one that is totally in line with what many peope are saying. We are repeating mistakes of the past, and to think that we can win by getting involved in civil wars is ridiculous.

Maybe, with the wisdom of hindsight, Dean could have chosen his words more carefully. But i'd rather have a guy who tells the truth but sometimes is too blunt, than these mushmouths who constantly parse every phrase and end up saying nothing.

And besides, many things that dean has said in the past that were called "outrageous" at the time, are now being repeated often as the "conventional wisdom."

[HardWorkingDem]

19. But WE KNOW they are masters at doing this...

so why do we keep doing the same things over and over again?

Why keep giving them the ammo to take pot shots at us?

[madfloridian]

40. Oh, you recommend saying only things which they won't disapprove.

That is an interesting concept. We have done it for a while now. Guess who is in control. You get 3 guesses and the first two don't count.

[HardWorkingDem]

43. No, what I'm saying....

is that we quit doing and saying things that end up being used against us. You know, like making idiotic statements about voting for 87 billion then voting against it. This Dem practice goes all the way back to Dukakis and his moronic tank ride. If there is one thing the Dems are good at, it is giving he Rethugs plenty of stuff to use against us.

How many kicks in the pants is it going to take for us to realize this and quit doing it. And it has nothing to do with surrendering principles, but instead learning to promote those principles more effectively.

[janx]

59. When anyone does or says something the right wing doesn't

like, they attack.

They can't stand Dean. He's effective, and he tells the truth. So they'll always attack him. Their favorite way to do so is to take quotes out of context.

Now the majority of the American people agree with Dean, so their attacks are all the more transparent.

[PassingFair]

140. You've GOT to be kidding.

The pukes yak up hairballs EVERY TIME they open their mouths. Bush cannot even speak English!

And EVERYTHING someone says can be taken out of context and spat up on FAUX news to spin.

Are you advocating that the opposition party go MUTE?


Our principles will not be promoted effectively by this corporate media. Ever.

We need to tell the truth and ACT.

The DLC does neither.

[wryter2000]

47. Oh my, yes

"Pardon me, Mr. President, but would you mind terribly if I pointed out that...how shall I put this?...very little of what you said about Iraq turned out to be true. I'm sure you meant well when you proclaimed the end of major combat operations, but a few more troops have died since then, haven't they? I say, I'd appreciate so very much if you'd explain what appears to be some (you must pardon me here) civilian collateral damage. And, although I hesitate to point this out, the war has cost a tad more than your fellows predicted, hasn't it?

"Would you mind awfully if I pencil myself into your day planner so that we can discuss ways that my party and I can help you pursue the glorious victory that is surely your due, having soundly trounced us in both presidential elections.

"Thanks and toodles."

:sarcasm:

[dorktv]

151. Dean called a spade a spade?! :O

*faints*

[Armstead]

91. I respectfully disagree

I believe we should not dumb-down everything we say just to avoid the words being misconstrued.

That's why very little of substance ever gets said these days.

Rather than capitulate to the right wing and media spinmeisters, I recommend we turn the tables and start attacking everything they say instead.

[HardWorkingDem]

117. No one is saying "dumb down"....man...

so much of what is reported is how it is said. I was in the military and KNOW how people respond to the word not "win". It is an inner, visceral thing. What happened in Somalia is a great example. When interviewed, the military members there were quite bothered by the feeling of quitting.

I do not think we should change the meaning, only how things are said. The way Dean phrased that question made so many people think that our military, i.e. our sons and daughters, are weak and unable to win. Certainly, I do not think for a minute to think Dean thinks poorly of our military, but that is how many people perceive that short little sentence. This debate would not be going on if only he had chosen his words more strategically.

And I agree with you about attacking everything they say, especially the lies, but it's hard to do so when the echo chamber is reverberating with Dean's poorly worded sentence.

[Armstead]

127. Here's the problem

I wish I could find a copy of Dean's whole statement, because the substance was not as outrageous as it seemed by just that one sentence.

In fact, Dean was much tamer than Murtha has been. If you take individual sentences from Murtha it's possible to make him sound like a really defeatist loser. In fact, that is what they tried to do to Murtha.

But, despite the smear attempts, Murtha's comments resonated with the public. Why? because he is a hawk and a war hero. So Murtha's real point got through the filter, and put Team Bush on the defensive.

The problem is that Dean was set up from the beginning of his national career as a punching bag. The right wing, the GOP and the Media Ho's and too many Democrats portrayed him as a wild eyed leftist and took him out of copntext throughout the campaigns last year, and it continues to this day.

But usually, everything Deanm has said has merely been a foreshadowing of what is subsequently said by the so-called "mainstream." Despitye being a punching bag at the moment he says things, it has been Dean who has done a lot to advance things, and other Democrats have followed behind.

Without people like Dean -- who is not afraid to say what is on many people's minds -- the Democrats will remain a party of warm flat beer.

It is inevitable that the GOP and Media will attack his use of words. But dermocrats should not be joining in that attack. Instead, IMO, they should support him, because that kind of "fighting Democrat" spirit is what is needed to reinvigorate the party.

[Writer]

17. That is precisely what I thought when I first read Dean's statement...

even if it were taken out of context. "Fair" doesn't factor into politics. Dean's comments played right into their hands. Now we're going to be the white-flag Democrats. This IS PRECISELY WHY DEAN WOULD HAVE LOST TO BUSH IN A LANDSLIDE IN 2004!

I don't care what WE think, I care what the thousands of unaffiliated voters think in 2006. Many Democrats are begging - no, PLEADING - that we work to push aside this 30 year-old weak on defense image. Whether it's right or wrong, that's the perception that we need to correct.

Dean did a lot of harm with his statement, whether that statement be wrong or right.

[HardWorkingDem]

24. What is really frustrating is...

he could have taken this right to Bush by must adding some statements like, "Even though we should not have went to Iraq in the first place, the Bush Administration's policies and actions have made winning the war in Iraq impossible. And I can guarantee you, that if Al Gore had been selected in 2000, bin Laden would be dead, 2,000+ Americans would not be dead and 15,000 would be without life affecting injuries and we'd all have health insurance by now."

[Kahuna]

137. "White-Flag" democrats," exactly. The future of our party is more

important that any one person. Dean is just not up to the job. The Dems need to fire him. But they won't.

[mmonk]

20. He needs to be like Lieberman

If he can't be like Lieberman, then he needs to say bush isn't running this nice legal war against the terrorists from 911 like us real good patriot democrats would. He needs to shut up with that truth crap.

[brentspeak]

22. You don't get it

Read Writer's post, #17. He explains the problem really well.

[mmonk]

25. You may not get it.

[mmonk]

26. Define "victory" in Iraq

I doubt the American people will call endless occupation victory when it becomes apparent.

[MrBenchley]

27. I wish he would think before opening his potato trap

Is it too much to ask that the head of a political party ACT like one?

At least he and his spokespeople started doing damage control immediately, but....sweet jesus on a stick, that was awful.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warpy]

28. Yes, why can't he don white gloves and be a lady?

Why can't he sit still and stay silent until he's spoken to? What is this need of his to voice opposition to policies that are killing people?

Honestly, there is nothing worse than a political party chairman who refuses to be ladylike enough to be seen in public! None of the old maids in pants in Congress should ever be seen with him until he learns feminine decorum!

On edit for people who miss such things, :sarcasm:

[Writer]

32. Why can't he think before he speaks?

Why can't he be more measured? Why can't he consider how the GOP is closely monitoring every word of every Democrat looking for issues to exploit? Now they have something to exploit.

Sarcasm? Here's mine: congratualations, Howard! You've just undone the hard work of Harry Reid, who successfully turned the Iraq issue back on the GOP. Good job, fearless leader!

THINK. THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK, HOWARD.

[Warpy]

36. Screw that

That's the way those cowards in Congress have been doing it, and they've lost more support every year.

The time has come to tell it like it is. If the truth embarrasses the DLC branch of the party, perhaps that's their problem, not his.

[brentspeak]

52. You don't understand something

both DLC AND non-DLC Democrats dread it whenever Dean starts blabbing away like he did.

[Warpy]

60. "Official" Democrats cringe

because they're so used to measured tones and never standing out and never giving the right wing bullies a target and never, ever saying anything at all important.

The rest of us are applauding, and that's what the white gloved, pursed lips crowd doesn't get.

The time for tacit agreement is LONG OVER.

[MrBenchley]

76. Unofficial ones do too...and meanwhile the GOP leaps to its feet with glee

and run ads all around the country highlighting Dr. Dean's "important" statement.

[janx]

77. Doesn't matter at this point.

This war is a disaster and most of the electorate now know it. Dean only stated the obvious.

Edit: You can be assured that the Republicans did not exactly jumpt to their feet with glee at Dean's comment. They are defensively REACTING.

[MrBenchley]

78. It sure as shit does matter....

Dean's inept comment gave the Republicans a club to use in next Fall's election.

"You can be assured that the Republicans did not exactly jumpt to their feet with glee at Dean's comment."
Yeah, that's why they started running ads using Dean's soundbite....they're so terrified of it.

[janx]

81. Their "club" is more like a deflating ballooon. n/t

[MrBenchley]

92. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt...

[janx]

103. Spare me the cliches,

please.

[leesa]

102. Why are you so PERPETUALLY AFRAID OF WHAT THEY THINK?

Dean's doing a great job. He's a thorn in their side. Just when they sink in to their stupid little boring routines, that you seem to think are important, he shakes them up. He's doing a swell job. He's doing everything just a little bit UNCOUTH and a little bit IMPROPER to wake up the dead heads in this sick society we live in. Get a spine, man.

Go Dean!

[BigYawn]

107. Could it be because we have been losing elections steadily since

1994, about the time Diebold came on to the scene
of electronic voting??

[MrBenchley]

146. Geeze louise....what a silly post.

Dean's doing a great job if what you want in a Democratic party chairman is a blowhard who goes out in public and gives aid and comfort to the Republican party.

But that's not the job of a party chairman. The job of a party chairman is to stay more or less behind the scenes organizng and raising money.

"Just when they sink in to their stupid little boring routines"
I know it's too fucking much to ask our progressive purists to keep an eye on reality, but I might as well point out that until Dean flapped his yap, the Republican party's "stupid little boring routine" was to squabble within themselves and sink listlessly down the polls. Dean energized THEM and gave them a perfect soundbite to use.

"He's doing everything just a little bit UNCOUTH"
Really, what was uncouth in any way about his San Antonio blunder, pray tell? I can tell you what was both inept and idiotic about it.

"the dead heads in this sick society we live in"
You know, from where I sit, talking to grownups every day, the routinely expressed contempt and hatred that some leftists have for the country they live in is a lot more toxic to the voters than anything the DLC does or doesn't do. The Republican crack about the "Hate America" crowd wouldn't resonate at all if it weren't for comments like yours.

"Get a spine"
I got a spine. You, on the other hand, seem to have some deifciency in the brain that's supposed to sit on top of one.

[BluGrl]

166. Because there is a difference

between seriously trying to win back power by showing the American people who the real adults are and a temper tantrum.

Dean is a 2yr old. Where are the adults in the party? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

[NYCGirl]

170. The "adults" as you call them, can't tell the difference

between a "temper tantrum" and the truth. They've been mealymouthed and cowering for so long, they don't know how to do anyting else. And it's lost us all branches of the government.

[HardWorkingDem]

70. I'd be all for him donning white gloves if it meant...

he still keep that iron fist inside to hammer away with.....

[mmonk]

29. Simple solution

Allude to bush's statement about he didn't think you can win it.

[madfloridian]

31. Dean needs to wait until the party leaders tell him it is ok to speak.

And then he should speak carefully and in a measured way. If he is careful enough, and clever enough in choosing his words...then we won't even know what he is really saying.

That will make him a winner.

I would put the sarcasm thingy, but unfortunately this is all too true.

Dean is too real for this party to handle. They are not used to someone who speaks the truth.

Wrap it up in a package of red and blue ribbons, my friends...so it will appeal to the right wing. That would make Dean a loser indeed.

[NoPasaran]

33. Why does Dean insist on speaking the truth

When he knows it's going to upset some people?

Give 'em hell, Howard!

[MsAnthropy]

39. LOL! Bravo!

[MrBenchley]

41. So tell us, which is "the truth"

Howard the other day or Howard today...

[NoPasaran]

44. Zzzzzzzzzzz

[MrBenchley]

46. Well, THAT sure seems like the truth....get back to us when you awake

[NoPasaran]

55. Some people enjoy

Getting in these pissing matches with you... I don't. I think they're a waste of bandwidth.

[brentspeak]

53. In other words,

the entire point of this my OP and this thread has gone right over your head, and you can't justify your position.

[NoPasaran]

58. Nonesense

I believe Dean was entirely justified in what he said. Six months from now everyone will be saying it. In the meantime, I prefer to leave the attacks on Howard Dean and the Democratic Party to the bad guys.

YEEEEEEAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH

[MrBenchley]

79. That's exactly right

[HardWorkingDem]

48. Look, no one is saying for Dean to stop telling the truth...

but to instead modify the way he does it.

Let's all go back and look at what has happened since his radio interview: Instead of the focus being on the Bushies and their incompetence, it has now, again, came back to the Dems and their ability to ensure the safety of the American people. This could all have been avoided if Dean had simply used better words to get his point across in the age of limited American attention spans and use of edited text.

Here is something to ponder: has anyone out there heard of ANY credible person on military affairs praise the Bushies for the management of the Iraq war? Hell NO!. Why? Because it's not there. Troops are dying in more ways than one because of the idiotic leadership and that is where the focus needs to be. Not on Dean and his poor use of words.

With a past in the military, I knew as soon as I heard his comments that this was going to be a problem (I also posted whether maybe Dean was crazy like a fox for going down this road, but it looks like that might not be the case after all) - no one can attribute not winning to the military without taking some heat.

[brentspeak]

54. Precisely

He could have said something like "we have the greatest military in the world, and it's being ill-used by President Bush, the great Democratic presidents Wilson, FDR, Truman and JFK would never put the world's best troops in an untenable position" or words to that effect. Instead, his quote is ready-made for Republicans to tee-off on with the "Democrats are like the Italian soldiers of WWII" smear.

[madfloridian]

62. You just want him to speak in a politically correct way...

so as not to offend anyone.

Many of our Democrats, like the Republicans, don't want us to leave Iraq at all. They don't want Dean talking about it...they really would rather we would all hush about it.

There is just no nice way to say we were taken to war on a lie, our party voted for it, and soldiers are dying more each day.

Everything he said was correct.

[HardWorkingDem]

64. Don't like the "political correct" phrase and never have...

I am not worried about offending anyone. Not at all - what I want is for our Democratic politicians to fight in the political arena in a more effective way. That is all. I want them to quit hobbling our chances with comments that come back to haunt us. Especially when we KNOW that they will. Or at the least, should have KNOWN that they will.

We know what the practices of the Rethugs are but keep falling right into their hands. It has nothing to do with "offending" someone.

Howard Dean can keep on telling the truth all he wants - but he can try to use better words.

[madfloridian]

65. There are no better words than the simple truth.

Our Democrats have not been fighting until lately, and I want him to keep it up.

[HardWorkingDem]

69. Who is saying for him to stop it?

No one is telling him to stop, but only to modify his tactics a bit. That is it. Attach some words to a comment so it can't be taken out of context. That sort of thing. It's really not that hard to do.

It's like living in a fishbowl - they all know by now that every word and image is being captured by the opponents and it's time to be careful with phrasing. As I've said, the media is like an animal that needs to be led around. Sort of like a bird and breadcrumbs. We could be so more effective if we would just use the media better. It's not saying to not let Dean be Dean.

[madfloridian]

71. You are saying for him to watch his words.

Perhaps our Dems should watch their votes about wars that are actually invasions.

[HardWorkingDem]

99. Agree with the vote part whole heartedly.....

nt....

[dorktv]

153. Anything Dean says can be taken out of context. Anything

ANYONE says can be.

So how exactly is Dean suppose to talk to prevent that?

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

34. You are reacting to the reaction of the 'Pubs

Howard Dean is the clearest, more articulate voice for Democrats on the scene today. Everything he says works for me. I don't find him radical, leftist, reactionary or stupid.
He is pushing their buttons and they are reacting in the only way they know how. Attacking his character, record, intellegence and personality.
There is no problem here as far as I'm concerned. To Howard I say "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!"
:)

[OneTwentyoNine]

35. Uh who cares what Hannity,Pillboy and O'Really thinks? Bush poll numbers..

are in the FREAKIN dumpster over Iraq and rip-off gas prices. I'm glad we have someone like Dean instead of DINO,milquetoast Dems like Lieberman. We've sat around and played pussy-foot with those thugs for a decade thinking if we be real nice like then they won't hand us our ASS.

Check it out,it DIDN'T work. You want to win? Want to keep Chimps poll numbers dropping? Then you have to be TOUGH!!

[wryter2000]

42. I guess you don't look at the home page

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5550285

If you did, you would have seen this.

[HardWorkingDem]

50. Here's another way he could have cut this off...

before making his "win" comment, he could have added at the start, "Just like the President stated on such and such date, I don't think we can really win this thing."

The dang media, who the people get their information from whether right or wrong, are like an animal that has to be led to water to drink. Now, if every Dem had went on the tv shows the next day and said the same thing - that Bush made a very similar remark in 04, then the media might be singing a different tune.

[madfloridian]

63. Did you even hear the interview at all? Here is the audio.

http://www.wohttp://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=C36A87B9-63A0-4CDE-AA91-B41571AFD3AFai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=C36A87B9-63A0-4CDE-AA91-B41571AFD3AF

He did great, he shocked some people, but the audio is going out all over the world. It was all perfectly fine what he said...it was powerful.

[MrBenchley]

51. Guess you didn't know about the New Republic

It's just one reason why that thread is so silly.....

"But many of my fellow liberals appear driven more by the second point. When asked about war, they typically offer the following propositions: President Bush has cynically timed the debate to bolster Republican chances in the November elections, he has pursued his Iraq policy with an arrogant disregard for the views of Congress and the public, and his rationales for military action have been contradictory and in some cases false. I happen to believe all these criticisms are true (although the first is hard to prove) and that they add more evidence to what is already a damning indictment of the Bush presidency. But these are objections to the way Bush has carried out his Iraq policy rather than to the policy itself. (If Bush were to employ such dishonest tactics on behalf of, say, universal health care, that wouldn't make the policy a bad idea.) Ultimately the central question is: Does war with Iraq promote liberal foreign policy principles? The answer is yes, it does. "

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20021021&s=chait102102

"He was editor of his college newspaper at the University of Pennsylvania and joined The New Republic as an editorial assistant in 1995. Not long afterward he was assigned to write a story on an arcane piece of Washington legislation. He thought it needed sprucing up and a serial liar was born.
“I remember thinking, ‘If I just had the exact quote that I wanted to make it work, it would be perfect.’ And I wrote something on my computer, and then I looked at it, and I let it stand. And then it ran in the magazine and I saw it. And I said to myself what I said every time these stories ran, ‘You must stop. You must stop.’ But I didn't.”
“I loved the electricity of people liking my stories. I loved going to story conference meetings and telling people what my story was going to be, and seeing the room excited. I wanted every story to be a home run.” "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/07/60minutes/main552819.shtml

[madfloridian]

67. From John Judis to Jonathan Chait to Stephen Glass...how'd you do that?

You are so good at smearing by many degrees of separation. Unbelievable!

Using the method of attacking the messenger is very well developed now, isn't it?

[MrBenchley]

74. I know what the New Republic is

And that's not a smear but a link to some actual facts...A smear would be if I dishonestly pretended the DLC did something evil by omitting facts and doing some vigorous lying...

You know, like this....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5534605

So tell us, did the DLC intimidate Howard Dean into doing damage control? Or did Howard take a bribe? You hinted broadly at both of those possibilities in another thread.

[madfloridian]

83. You just accused the party chairman of taking a bribe??

Please tell me I misunderstood you. If that is what you said it is slander.

"So tell us, did the DLC intimidate Howard Dean into doing damage control? Or did Howard take a bribe? "

[MrBenchley]

93. No, YOU did....

Discussing Howard Dean doing damage control for the remark you were claiming he would never have to do damage control about, YOU announced "Congratulations...money talks and money wins."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2299123#2299133

Can't imagine what THAT's about unless you're claiming Dean took a bribe....

[CTLawGuy]

172. ah The New Republic(an)

NT

[janx]

56. If he had said this:

"The way that President Bush is running the war...the war can't be won,"

it would be disingenuous. The war itself is the problem and has been from the start.

[Justice Is Comin]

66. Short and sweet.

Dean's mouth doesn't get the message of what his brain told him to say.

[madfloridian]

68. Yes it did.

He said we couldn't win, and we can't.

[radio4progressives]

75. You Present a False Dichotomy - "Stupidity" Should be Assigned to the DLC

You have either wittingly or unwittingly advanced the GOP/DLC talking points, whose history is based on lies, distortions, and misinformation.

Howard Dean spoke the truth, but didn't advance that truth on his own, or out of school - we've been saying exactly what Dean said, for months if not the past three years! These remarks didn't come out of the blue, they are reflection of the contemporary debate.

You may be an innocent in these matters, but are giving more power to the GOP/DLC by playing into their hands.

Please consider this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2301098&mesg_id=2301667

[MrBenchley]

80. Bullshit....

Hey, glad you brought up that "honest thread" where you and your fellow "progressives" were attacking those evil DLCers Wolf Blitzer and Mary Matalin.

"we've been saying exactly what Dean said"
High praise indeed (snicker)

[Elidor]

82. Now this is funny

The rational response to this would be to complain about the GOP twisting Dean's words out of context. But the DLC types don't like to challenge the GOP, who consistently kick their asses. Emasculated, they turn on other democrats, because that's the only fight they don't feel overwhelmed by. If Dean was a child on a playground who stood up to a GOP bully and got knocked down, the DLC would be the kid on the sidelines who criticizes him for giving the bully a reason. "Don't give him a reason to come after us! Be good, stay out of the way, and maybe we won't get our butts kicked." Pathetic, craven and cowardly.

[bklyncowgirl]

84. Nice analogy. "Now you've got him mad we're gonna get our asses kicked"

The only way to beat a bully is to face him down. If these pink tutu Democrats hadn't turned on Dean, we would be debating the issue he wanted to highlight in the first place.

[madfloridian]

86. Applause. That is a powerful way to say it.

I was a teacher, and I know a lot about bullies and how they work.

Well-said.

:woohoo:

[Writer]

95. DEAN is responsible for DEAN's remarks.

Not the DNC, not the DLC.

[Elidor]

112. That's exactly right. And Dean is the one who is answerable

For Dean's remarks. No one else. Only in the twisted beltway world is he portrayed as speaking for all democrats. So it's very bizarre to see others claiming that his words taint them, claiming that they have to defend his words. No one but Dean has to defend his words, and he is quite capable of doing so.

[madfloridian]

122. You have no clue how many he speaks for .

I say let's recall him, turn him loose as SAKAL, then let him run in 08.

Great idea.

[Cha]

109. Good one, Hardhead!

dlc types have enabled bush for five years now and where has it gotten them?

"EMASCULATED"!

[freestyle]

85. Inability of some to handle the truth is no reason not to tell it.

Dean told the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. Since the war is based on lies, there is no victory to be had, for anyone. What, pray tell, would winning look like?

[librechik]

87. if he didn't say something, they'd invent it

If he kept silent, they would bash that.
Dean's role in life is to be hated by those people--he knows it and is going to say what he wants anyway. That is admirable.

[madfloridian]

88. Can you say Stockholm Syndrome? Dean did once on Fox.

This thread is a good example of the power of the Republicans over our Democrats whom they have royally crushed and degraded.

Stockholm Syndrome has many ramifications.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

"The Stockholm syndrome is a psychological response sometimes seen in a hostage, in which the hostage exhibits seeming loyalty to the hostage-taker, in spite of the danger (or at least risk) the hostage has been put in. Stockholm syndrome is also sometimes discussed in reference to other situations with similar tensions, such as some battered-wife and child abuse cases."

"The syndrome is named after the Norrmalmstorg robbery of Kreditbanken at Norrmalmstorg, Stockholm in which the bank robbers held bank employees hostage from August 23 to August 28, 1973. In this case, the victims became emotionally attached to their victimizers, and even defended their captors after they were freed from their six-day ordeal. The term was coined by the criminologist and psychologist Nils Bejerot, who assisted the police during the robbery, and referred to the syndrome in a news broadcast."

Here is a reference to the statement.
http://www.newshounds.us/2005/01/13/howard_dean_colmes.php

"Dean mentioned the Stockholm Syndrome affecting the Democrats causing them to lean toward the the right which he said is a mistake.Dean believes that Democrats should differentiate themselves from the Republicans and stand up for their beliefs proudly adding that Newt Gingrich does this well.

Colmes asked him about the high price of the inaugauration and Dean said it was too glitzy claiming that no party should spend that much when the money is needed for so many things. In his direct style, Dean mentioned that this swearing in is funded by lobbyists who will want favors in return."

[CANDO]

89. This is bad.

They were on the run and Dean gives them a perfect spiral pass on a post pattern for a touchdown. Damn-it, I love Howard, but this just blows the way he gave them a reprieve.

[0007]

90. Dean was right then, and he is right now.

What is this a tag team match you guy play?

[Writer]

94. Right or wrong, his comments hurt us by playing into the...

stereotype that the GOP is creating. Now we're "white flag" Democrats.

And WE HAD THEM ON THE RUN. :mad:

[0007]

96. That's you're opinion and not a fact

[Writer]

97. What are you talking about - you think ANY of this is based on fact?

It IS my opinion, thank you. And ALL OF US need to understand that NONE of us are supremely correct in assessing the topic of "how to beat the GOP." I think, however, that the white flag ads the GOP are producing on account of Dean's flub are an exemplar of how the "mouthy, bitchy Democrat" strategy only plays into their hands.

So what do you think we're doing here? We're on this forum to type nothing BUT opinions! We are partisan political observers. We do not deal in facts, and neither does the other side.

[0007]

100. Bravo!

[Armstead]

98. The only white flags will be if Democrats once again cede ground to GOP

People want us to get the hell out of Iraq.

Even Bush is starting to make noises in that direction.

Democrats have to stand their ground. The reason Bush was on the run was because Democrats were finally standing up and calling this war what it is. A scam with no good options.

Dean was basically echoing what Murtha said. Murtha was the big cannon because he was telling the unvarnished truth, which heartened many Americans and scared the GOP. THAT's what was breaking the logjam, not weasly parroting of stale GOP talking points.

[CTLawGuy]

173. we've always been "white flag democrats"

what do you think of Murtha?

[Douglas Carpenter]

106. the fact is -- the war in Iraq is not winnable

not under a Republican plan..not under a Democratic Plan. Anyone with even the most cursory knowledge of the Middle East (like Brent Scowcroft, James Baker and Bush Sr) pretty much said the same thing years ago. Reality is a painful thing to face. Contrast Dean's comments to the dangerous,irresponsible and downright delusional comments made about the Iraq by Joe Lieberman

As far as the media attacking Dean again...

Was Kerry wrong to go wind surfing? Was Kerry really a flip-flopper and a traitor?

How much time does the media spend scrutinizing outrageous comments by Ken Mehlman?

Howard Dean could have been preaching the Sermon on the Mount and reading the Bill of Rights and the media would still have twisted it.

[okieinpain]

113. what I don't like right now is no one is hitting back at the repugs.

they are all just pissed at dean. spread some of that bad motherfucker attitude around.

[Neil Lisst]

114. I think Dean sees himself speaking for the rank and file.

And the rank and file Dem is against this war, in favor of withdrawal, and not buying the "we're gonna win" macho bullshit.

[radio4progressives]

145. You are Correct Neil Lisst... and i am one of them... n/t

[mzmolly]

115. As a Dean supporter I agree whole heartedly.

He's done a great job, but we can't toss the neanderthals any red meat. I think he should have worded it like Murtha, "the war can't be won militarily, it has to be won diplomatically."

[mtnsnake]

116. As another one who likes Dean, I also agree with you wholeheartedly

He's got to take the time to think before he speaks. I love it when he's tough on Republicans, but he can't simply toss out statements that can be interpreted as being divisive, no matter what his original intents are. Plug away at Bush, plug away at the corruption, but don't say something that can be used for cannon fodder against all Democrats. Think next time, Howard!

[AuntPatsy]

119. Sorry to dissapoint your line of reasoning, but the GOP will smear

anyone who even remotely questions their power plays...

When have you ever once noticed them playing fair in any way shape or form? don't blame Dean for the immoral antics of the GOP...

I still have not gotten over the way the purple heart was mocked at the RNC convention and barely a whisper of outrage, they loved it and continue to play that game..

Your given them the benefit of a conscience when it's been proven time and time again they have none.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Montauk6]

124. That's not the question: the question is why does he feel the need to

justify everything he says. Besides, you know as well as I do, that even with a "qualifier," the Foxies are going to trim that from the soundbyte anyway.

[rman]

125. Repubs will spin and exploit anything that anyone says,

if they think it advances their cause.

In the absence of something to spin, they'll make something up. (ie Whitewater)

And the mainstream media will repeat it.
Which of course has nothing to do with the fact that by far most of the MSM is owned by large corporations that are owned by republicans.

[lonestarnot]

126. blah blah blah

[sendero]

128. The war canno be won militarily..

.... even Bush has said that.

Dean trips over his own statements now and then, but then 99% of other Dems do it on a regular basis.

[Kahuna]

129. After almost 40 years of trying to battle off the stigma of being weak

on national security, Dean just gave us another 40 years to fight it off. I don't get this guy. He obvious has common sense. But blast his free-wheeling lips!!!! Back in the day the Dems would have demanded his resignation over something like this.

[dorktv]

154. Okay, this is like the fifth time someone has made a fairly silly

claim that one statement means we are going to be percived<-spelling as week for 40 years.

how the hell can one statement make an entire party look weak for 40 years?

[Kahuna]

164. If it's so silly, why are we STILL perceived as "anti-war" meaning..

ALL wars, even if we're attacked? You cannot deny that we are perceived as weak on national defense. I lived through the sixties and seventies. I KNOW how it got to be that way. I'm not saying that the anti-war protestors were wrong. I believe they were right. But even though they have been vindicated for their actions, Americans still seem to prefer an asshole that will take us into a war over nothing, than a clear thinker who will try to avoid one. That's just the way it is. I didn't make it up.

[CTLawGuy]

174. voting for the Patriot Act = weak

voting for IWR = weak
running ads where you proudly claim you worked with Bush = weak
voting against IWR because the war is wrong = strong


Strength is doing what is unpopular but right.

Weakness is doing what is popular but wrong.

[ljm2002]

133. Qualifiers

You ask, 'Has Dean ever heard the word "qualifier" in his life?'.

The reason I like him is that he is a direct speaker who speaks his mind. Effective communication uses direct statements, active tense, and clarity of expression. It dispenses with thickets of qualifiers that muddy the point.

The real problem here is the Democratic so-called "leaders" who get all wishy-washy and apologetic whenever the Republicans complain. As far as I'm concerned, they can stick their weaselly-appeaselly opinions where the sun don't shine, and stand up for our excellent spokesman and his accurate assessment of the situation in Iraq.

Time we made some serious proposals and quit the infighting and jockeying for position. Do we stand for anything, or don't we? Most of the American public now thinks the Iraq invasion was a mistake. Will our leadership make use of this groundswell of public opinion and turn it to their advantage, or will they as usual squander it by pandering to the pathetic bullies of the right wing? Do they have any clue that by putting this together with the growing revulsion at the deep corruption in the Republican party, they could produce some real political momentum? Apparently not, apparently they value their position as "insiders" more than they value their values -- if, indeed, they still have any.

The only part of this current dust-up that infuriates me is the appeaser Democratic who are too afraid to stand for anything that the big bad bully Republicans might not like.

[radio4progressives]

143. "Never underestimate the willingness of some Dems to Regurgitate RW Lies"

as is being done in this thread by the two or three dlc appeasers/attack dogs attempting to attack the messengers and the truth tellers.

the subject heading is an abreviated quote lifted from David Sirota's diary posted at the Huffington post, which i think is a "must read" for a bit of insight as to what is going on in this party .

It's entitled:

Right-Wing Spin In the House Democratic Caucus

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/rightwing-spin-in-the-ho_b_11991.html


"Never underestimate the willingness of some Democrats to regurgitate right-wing lies and undercut their own party's message. Even in the seemingly smallest settings, we see it all the time. Take the current race for Vice-Chair of the House Democratic Caucus. This is basically a powerless, but symbolic position, yet even in this venue, some Democrats are self-servingly spewing out GOP talking points, just to get themselves ahead."


(snip)

"What's perhaps most disgusting about this struggle is the attempt by those in the former camp saying they represent more "electable" or politically mainstream positions - even though polls consistently show the public is far more progressive in its outlook than the political Establishment wants us to believe. For instance, Crowley claims his record means "I can go to other parts of the country and turn red seats to blue. I don't think Jan can do that." Really? Is that right? Rounding up corporate lobbyists to pass a credit-card industry written bill resonates in red states? Allowing the president to send troops to war based on lies shows strength in conservative parts of America? Helping companies rip off workers' hard earned pensions resonates out here too? What a complete joke. Is it any wonder that polls show the public thinks many Democrats truly are out of touch with the American heartland? "

"This is the kind of nonsense that the Democratic Party has to forcefully put an end to - it is time for Democratic leaders to speak out when their own colleagues literally regurgitate Fox News-style B.S. for their own selfish purposes. Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) set down a good marker in this direction today, when he rightly laced into Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-CT) for being a White House apologist about the war. It's time for more leaders like Reid to speak up, and call out people like Hoyer, Crowley and others who are so self-absorbed they are willing to undercut their own party just to promote themselves. "


I think this message applies to those within the party, who are undercutting Howard Dean with GOP talking points.

The most amazing thing to me, is that Howard Dean is actually a Centrist in the truest sense of the word. He is no "Fringe Lefty" by any definition, yet the those who should know this, are promulgating the lie making the claim that Dean is an out of touch, fringe lefty, threw a variety of means and tactics.

When I see that occuring here, the question that begs to be asked and answered isn't" "WHY does Dean insist on giving Republicans quotes to exploit? " but rather should be: "Why are OTHER Democrats regurgitating Right Wing/GOP Lies and Talking Points to undercut the Democratic Party Chair, Organizer and Centrist? "

Isn't it about time the party help correct the meaning of "Centrist" by supporting what Howard Dean is doing, instead of undermining his efforts?

(edited for clarity)

[MrBenchley]

147. What a pantload that Sirota piece is

You'll notice Sirota carefully avoided mentioning this paragraph about her husband while he was telling us what a pure "progressive" Schakowsky was....

"As for her husband, Robert Creamer, and his legal problems, she says they do not appear to be threatening her political career inside the Capitol or in her congressional district, which is overwhelmingly Democrat and she has carried with ease.
Creamer, a political consultant who once headed the largest public interest lobbying group in Illinois, has pleaded guilty to $2.3 million in bank fraud and a federal tax violation. His sentencing is scheduled for Dec. 21 and he could face more than four years in prison."

http://cbs2chicago.com/politics/local_story_337142858.html

"Crowley claims his record means "I can go to other parts of the country and turn red seats to blue. I don't think Jan can do that." Really? Is that right?"
Yeah. And it has nothing to do with ideology either. Crowley is too polite to say out loud that having a Democratic leader whose husband is in the slammer for bank fraud isn't exactly going to set voters on fire when she talks about the "culture of corruption."

[Capn Sunshine]

148. To make everyone happy, Dean will clear his remarks with the RNC 1st

Why is everyone so afraid of this issue?

For God's sake, over 60 percent of the American public are on board with this!

What, do the Dean bashers need a memo, or just a clean window?

[MrBenchley]

156. He sure couldn't have made the RNC much happier

"For God's sake, over 60 percent of the American public are on board with this! "
Over 60% of the country say the war in Iraq can't be won? Says who?

[bowens43]

159. says who?

says 60% of the American public.....but then you knew that.

[MrBenchley]

162. Yeah? Where the poll that says so?

The polls I see show about 60% of Americans don't think Chimpy has a plan for victory or disapprove of the way the war is being run.

[madfloridian]

149. Hardhead said not to make the bully mad, or he will pick on us more.

I just thought that was so well said. Shut up, Howard, you're gonna piss em off and they'll pick on us.

That is just what this is beginning to sound like. Let the bullies alone, don't give them any ammunition.

Well said Hardhead.

[Clarkie1]

155. We can't achieve victory in Iraq militarily or by staying the course

Would have been a far more accurate, eloquent, and politically correct statement.

[bowens43]

157. He was absolutly correct.

This war can't be won. We all know that. We all knew that before the first shot was fired. It's about time someone said it.

[Clarkie1]

161. It depends on what your definition of "win" is.

That's the problem.

It would have been better if Dean had choosen his words more carefully.

[Kahuna]

165. Absolutely right. Since we already conquered their non-existent

army and deposed their dictator, we can legitimately claim success and leave at any time.

[zulchzulu]

158. Dean is doing a great job...the more the Repugs complain, the better

The Repugs are on the ropes and they are scared about possibly getting their ass kicked in 2006.

The more Dean comes out (and is taken out of context), the more the Repugs do their classic overstepping on the issue. If the subject is Dean and his message, then it's akin to getting free press. The more the merrier!

If you believe in the Repug spin that Dean's statement was nonsense, you're taking the bait. Chimpy has already said that the war is not winnable...Rummy has pretty much said statements about the same thing...if anything, there should be a DNC ad to counter the RNC ad where the statements were made...bitch slap back at 'em.

[Jim Sagle]

160. Dean rox and his critics suck. End of discussion.

[savemefromdumbya]

167. Dean is correct

Dean is a threat to them that is why they qote him?

[AZBlue]

168. That's what Dems do

We give them the actions and words to use against us all the time. We hand them the whip and then bend over and ask for it.

Politics is a spin game. You can speak the truth while still making sure it's spin-resistant. But until the Dems realize that, we'll continue to be beat with our own words and deeds.

[CTLawGuy]

171. If Howard Dean had been Senate Majority Leader in 2002

The IWR would have died in committee and it would be MUCH less likely that we'd be in Iraq right now.

Or maybe a resolution that was less than a blank check would have passed.

But we had now-former Senator Traitor Tom Daschle in there. Look what his self-conscious politically-minded actions got him - retirement.


I would rather risk the fact that Repugs might have something to attack us with, than go the other way and end up with the Patriot Act, the Bankruptcy Bill, the War in Iraq, etc... and STILL lose 2002 and 2004.

Do the republicans care about what we might say about them? No. They are unafraid to stand up for what they believe in, even if any reasonable person would believe it to be insane.