Biden: "Clean" comes from mother's saying, "clean as a whistle, sharp as a tack."

[wyldwolf]

Our colleagues at Gannett News Service report that Biden also said today that Obama is "probably the most exciting candidate that the Democratic or Republican parties have produced" in a long time. Biden said his remark about Biden being "clean" reflected his mother's expression: "Clean as a whistle, sharp as a tack."

"I really regret that some have taken totally out of context my use of the word 'clean' " Biden said.

GNS also writes that Obama didn't take the comments personally and would not comment further, his Senate spokesman, Tommy Vietor, said in an e-mail response to a reporter's inquiry.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/01/biden_on_obama_.html

Clean as a whistle: be as clean as a whistle - if someone is as clean as a whistle, they are not involved in anything illegal. He hasn't got a criminal record - he's clean as a whistle.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/clean+as+a+whistle

[Deep13]

1. "He hasn't got a criminal record "

And he's the first one, apparently.

[LuckyTheDog]

59. Joe, you are in a hole

PLEASE stop digging!

I honestly don't think Biden is a racist. But he is an idiot.

[mzmolly]

72. Indeed. Stop SPEAKING.

Sheesh!

[LittleClarkie]

74. He can't

He just can't.

[Hoping4Change]

75. One of Jane Austen's cardinal rules was not to take offense where

none is intended.

[beaconess]

76. Jane Austen has never been my guide how to approach politics. But thanks.

And I don't buy the "he didn't mean any harm so don't criticize him." Some of the most serious damage can come about as a direct result of people who didn't mean it.

[arcos]

2. Which also poses the question...

Is Biden implying previous African American candidates were not "clean as a whistle"?

[wyldwolf]

4. yes, and so am I

[marmar]

5. Que?

Oh I forgot, Jesse Jackson must have knocked over a couple of 7Elevens before his first run.

[wyldwolf]

7. do you want to discuss the unethical things he did?

[marmar]

12. I'm sure they have, as have probably every politician who has ever run for anything...

but to call them corrupt? That's quite a leap.

[wyldwolf]

14. but we're not discussing "every politician who has ever run for anything"

We're discussing African-American candidates for President.

For example, Carol-Mosely Braun was at one time the Cook County Recorder of Deeds, a patronage job reserved for loyal party lieutenants. She created a code of ethics, then exempted herself. Here's what else she did, according to the New Republic magazine:

"she moonlighted as a highly paid lawyer-lobbyist; deposited hundreds of thousands of county dollars in non-interest-bearing accounts at a bank that had contributed to her campaign; and bestowed a $55,000 "consulting" contract on a full-time state senator who happened to be an old friend and political ally."

THAT is corruption.

[marmar]

18. Fine, but the implication, at least what I'm feeling as an African American....

is that we are inherently corrupt and inarticulate, so we've got to point it out when one comes along who is not. We don't seem to need to point out that John Edwards is a bright white candidate who didn't cheat on his wife with an intern or snort coke in college.

[wyldwolf]

31. you are responsible for your own feelings

The FACT is, of all the black candidates for President, only Obama has had the combination of being articulate, smart, clean, and most importantly mainstream.

[marmar]

33. Whatever you say, I don't want to spend my afternoon debating this, and....

I honestly don't think Biden was trying to sound like a patronizing, stereotyping racist, but that's exactly what he sounded like. And someone who is that clueless, inarticulate and not-so-smart when it comes to apropros language shouldn't be running for president, especially when his party needs to carry 85 percent of the African American vote to win the White House. Je suis finit.

[ProudDad]

53. Don't feed the troll my friend...

It's just not worth it. This troll, the wolf, is clueless...

[wyldwolf]

61. proudpoppy, the troll is you!

[beaconess]

37. Doug Wilder, Alan Keyes, Shirley Chisholm?

Shame on you for lumping all black candidates together and insinuating that they're all criminals or unethical.

carol Moseley Braun and Jesse Jackson have never been charged with any wrongdoing. And simply accusing them of "corruption" is meaningless, unless you want to explain why you haven't included Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, John Edwards and numerous other candidates who have been similarly accused of - but never charged with - so-called "corruption."

Your attitude is disgusting.

[SOS]

63. Is selling favors for campaign contributions corrupt?

Just curious.

April 12, 2006 - New York Times
Corning Finds Clinton Useful, And Vice Versa
By MIKE MCINTIRE AND RAYMOND HERNANDEZ

"Corning Inc., one of upstate New York's largest and oldest employers, has supported Republican candidates for so long that its chairman once joked that it had not raised money for a Democrat since 1812.
But since Hillary Rodham Clinton was elected to the Senate in 2000, Corning and its mainly Republican executives have become one of her largest sources of campaign contributions. And in that time, Mrs. Clinton has become one of the company's leading champions, delivering for it like no other Democratic lawmaker.
In April 2003, a month after Corning's political action committee gave $10,000 to her re-election campaign, Mrs. Clinton announced legislation that would provide hundreds of millions in federal aid to reduce diesel pollution, using, among other things, technology pioneered by Corning. It was one of several Congressional initiatives Mrs. Clinton has pushed that benefit the company."


http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/hillary_rodham_clinton/index.html?query=CORNING%20INCORPORATED&field=org&match=exact

And btw, Biden himself, on the Daily Show, did not mention corruption in his explanation of his comments. From Editor and Publisher:

On The Daily Show tonight, he said that he was simply trying to be "complimentary" toward Sen. Barack Obama, but wasn't "artful" in doing so. He said the "word that really got me in trouble" was calling Obama "clean....I should have said fresh. What I meant was he’s got new ideas."

"Clean" as meaning "not corrupt" is not what Biden meant, according to Biden. Perhaps it's time for a "fresh ideas' thread?

[SOS]

67. Is selling favors for campaign cash corrupt?

Just curious.

April 12, 2006 - New York Times
Corning Finds Clinton Useful, And Vice Versa
By MIKE MCINTIRE AND RAYMOND HERNANDEZ

"Corning Inc., one of upstate New York's largest and oldest employers, has supported Republican candidates for so long that its chairman once joked that it had not raised money for a Democrat since 1812.
But since Hillary Rodham Clinton was elected to the Senate in 2000, Corning and its mainly Republican executives have become one of her largest sources of campaign contributions. And in that time, Mrs. Clinton has become one of the company's leading champions, delivering for it like no other Democratic lawmaker.
In April 2003, a month after Corning's political action committee gave $10,000 to her re-election campaign, Mrs. Clinton announced legislation that would provide hundreds of millions in federal aid to reduce diesel pollution, using, among other things, technology pioneered by Corning. It was one of several Congressional initiatives Mrs. Clinton has pushed that benefit the company."


http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/hillary_rodham_clinton/index.html?query=CORNING%20INCORPORATED&field=org&match=exact

And btw, Biden himself, on the Daily Show, did not mention corruption in his explanation of his comments. From Editor and Publisher:

On The Daily Show tonight, he said that he was simply trying to be "complimentary" toward Sen. Barack Obama, but wasn't "artful" in doing so. He said the "word that really got me in trouble" was calling Obama "clean....I should have said fresh. What I meant was he’s got new ideas."

"Clean" as meaning "not corrupt" is not what Biden meant, according to Biden. Perhaps it's time for a "fresh ideas' thread?

[SOS]

68. Is selling favors for campaign cash corrupt?

Just curious.

April 12, 2006 - New York Times
Corning Finds Clinton Useful, And Vice Versa
By MIKE MCINTIRE AND RAYMOND HERNANDEZ

"Corning Inc., one of upstate New York's largest and oldest employers, has supported Republican candidates for so long that its chairman once joked that it had not raised money for a Democrat since 1812.
But since Hillary Rodham Clinton was elected to the Senate in 2000, Corning and its mainly Republican executives have become one of her largest sources of campaign contributions. And in that time, Mrs. Clinton has become one of the company's leading champions, delivering for it like no other Democratic lawmaker.
In April 2003, a month after Corning's political action committee gave $10,000 to her re-election campaign, Mrs. Clinton announced legislation that would provide hundreds of millions in federal aid to reduce diesel pollution, using, among other things, technology pioneered by Corning. It was one of several Congressional initiatives Mrs. Clinton has pushed that benefit the company."


http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/hillary_rodham_clinton/index.html?query=CORNING%20INCORPORATED&field=org&match=exact

And btw, Biden himself, on the Daily Show, did not mention corruption in his explanation of his comments. From Editor and Publisher:

On The Daily Show tonight, he said that he was simply trying to be "complimentary" toward Sen. Barack Obama, but wasn't "artful" in doing so. He said the "word that really got me in trouble" was calling Obama "clean....I should have said fresh. What I meant was he’s got new ideas."

"Clean" as meaning "not corrupt" is not what Biden meant, according to Biden. Perhaps it's time for a "fresh ideas' thread?

[rinsd]

9. Perhaps Jackson's daughter was more common knowledge on the Hill

than before he was outed by National Enquirer. Or he could be referring to Jackson's "hymietown" interview.

Sharpton's actions include inciting a riot in which people died and the Tawana Brawley mess.

Alan Keyes? He just flat out looney.

Still all in all it was a dumb comment.

[Dhalgren]

6. Bull.Shit.

[wyldwolf]

8. any particular candidate you want to discuss, Mr. Bullshit?

[Dhalgren]

17. Shirley Chisholm , for one.

[wyldwolf]

23. did she have a serious shot at the presidency?

[Dhalgren]

25. No suh, I'se reakon not...

[wyldwolf]

27. I rest my case.

[Dhalgren]

50. As, indeed, you well should. By your question regarding Ms Chisholm's

viability as a candidate, you have made the source of your argument perfectly clear...

[Leopolds Ghost]

52. To paraphrase Pirates of The Carribbean:

"Take no chances, he's only HALF black!"

"That, sir, IS reason to fret..."

Let's face it, we're in a new era where light-skinned black people are explicitly considered more "electable" than dark-skinned people. This is a problem WITHIN the black community in many cities. Sometimes, the person himself seems to revel in his "honorary white" status. Other times, it is nothing against the candidate himself, until white people expect him to play favorites with them because he is not one of those "inner city type politicians" (read: dark skinned black candidates who have an accent). It's a form of internalized racism, in my opinion.

[Dhalgren]

60. The thing that is so discouraging is that even here on an otherwise

progressive site there are still people who would try and defend these old bigoted mental processes. Of course Biden did not INTEND to sound racist - that's what is so insidious about it. Even in the attempt to come off as a wholly viable candidate, he was unaware (benefit of the doubt)that his statement was bigoted. And then folks on this board try to rationalize the bigotry. It is amazing....

[Karenina]

65. Now THAT dynamic

is way too much for this crowd to comprehend... ;-)

The wolf is still spinning and Obama's lips are sealed.

[Deep13]

19. Carol Mosely-Braun from 2004, too.

Don't think she had much of a rap sheet. :eyes:

[wyldwolf]

24. already address. Very corrupt

http://www.realchange.org/moseley.htm

[Deep13]

30. Hmm. Interesting.

Food for thought. I'm not sure I'm willing to accept unconditionally conclusions based on the New Republic or Spy Magazine articles, but definitely food for thought.

[wyldwolf]

32. New Republic, yes.

I'll conceded "Spy Magazine."

[beaconess]

38. If such accusations mean that Moseley-Braun is dirty, Clinton and Edwards stink to high heaven

Of course, they're white, so that's different.

[Guaranteed]

55. You're answering all of these candidates with your interpretation of "clean,"

which, I think, could very well be incorrect- IF you look at the context of what he said.

[Dhalgren]

21. What about Shirley? Wasn't she "clean"? Take your time...

[LynneSin]

62. I think he was implying that in the past there have been many questionable

candidates of all races who have run. He's got a point - Obama is about as clean as they come which is why the media is making up shit like the school in Indonesia, his middle name and even the fact that Obama smokes. Because they have absolutely nothing else to drag through the gutter with this one

[babylonsister]

3. T.S., Biden. Think before you open your big fat mouth; if you can't,

you're not presidential material to begin with.

[Bucky]

10. "As a whistle"? So this is Biden's way of implying all black people whistle?

You'll notice also the subtle racist implication that African Americans all carry tacks around with them, probably to slash your tires in the sick, racist imagination of this sheet-packin' Klansman, this so-called Joe Biden.

[wyldwolf]

15. LOL! GOOD ONE!

[Solon]

11. Talk about damning with faint praise...

you do realize that this makes things WORSE for Biden, don't you?

[wyldwolf]

16. Odd that Obama doesn't feel this way.

'Joe you don't have to explain anything to me.' - Obama to Biden today.

[marmar]

20. What do you expect him to say for public consumption?

I suspect he'll tell his wife something totally different when he talks to her.

[Solon]

22. You do realize that Obama's reaction isn't the most important...

Biden needs a majority of Democratic Primary voters to win the nomination, there is no way in hell that he can get that now. Just reading the quote in question causes a visceral reaction in many people, like nails on a chalkboard. He's done.

[Infinite Hope]

13. "Clean" in terms of political candidacy means no skeletons in the closet.

People need to get over this and stop trying to find something wrong with everything in the world that doesn't have to do with their candidate.

[alstephenson]

28. But that's what the Repukes want us to do!!! eom

[Infinite Hope]

45. Right, I'm not saying it was the right thing to do. I'm only arguing it wasn't at all racist

or wrong in and of itself.

Certainly, to start out a campaign by slamming every other candidate is regressive campaigning.

[alstephenson]

66. I agree it wasn't racist. I also agree with your "regressive campaigning" observation. eom

[flpoljunkie]

26. Pretty damn lame explanation, Biden. The context speaks for itself. Can't wait to see Daily Show.

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man." -- Senator Joe Biden,

Biden is scheduled to be on, and I don't think Jon Stewart will let him get away with such a lame attempt to explain away a rascist comment.

The man has blown his chances for the nomination right out of the gate!

[beaconess]

39. Clearly, every previous black candidate is more articulate than Joe Biden

[The Count]

79. And cleaner too, not having plagiarized speeches, nor kissed *s ass:

Rice Takes Center Stage at Confirmation Hearing
Democrats Press Nominee on Iraq
By ANNE GEARAN,
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050116...
.......Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Richard Lugar opened
Tuesday's hearing with warm words about Rice, who has served a mostly
behind-the-scenes role at the White House for the past four years. He
called her "highly qualified'' for the post.
Biden also praised Rice, but noted that "relations with many of our
oldest friends are quite frankly scraping the bottom right now.''
However, Biden also had blunt advice for European critics: "I have one
simple message: Get over it. Get over it. President Bush is our
president for the next four years. So get over it and start to act in
your interest, Europe.''..........

[beaconess]

84. And didn't preside over the confirmation of Clarence Thomas

[LeftishBrit]

87. He sounds too inarticulate to be a good president

I interpreted 'clean' as 'no baggage'; and I am prepared to believe that Biden was saying 'the first mainstream African-American' and then separately 'he is articulate and bright and clean and nice-looking'.

However, I'd be offended just by the 'first mainstream African-American' comment, especially as there have been a LOT of mainstream African-American politicians (not as many as there would be if parts of America had become a democracy from that point of view longer ago than the 1960s; but still quite a few). As a woman, I would find it a bit condescending if Hillary Clinton was described as 'the first mainstream woman politician'. (In fact, I did find the Times comparison between her and Maggie Thatcher condescending, on just such grounds.)

As a senator, I suppose the most important thing is how he votes; but as a presidential candidate, it does make me wonder whether Biden would be articulate and diplomatic enough to deal with foreign policy as president - you don't need to mean harm or be deliberately racist to cause a serious crisis by a stupid remark at a summit meeting.

But I understand that he's got no chance anyway?

[rodeodance]

29. good that his office has not commented anymore. Enough said.!!

[flpoljunkie]

34. From The Hotline: Obama's response to Biden when he called. I love it!

Joe Biden called Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) to clarify his "clean" comment to the New York Observer, Biden told reporters in a conference call this afternoon. Biden said Obama told him: "You don't have to explain anything to me. I know exactly what you meant."

http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/01/biden_calls_oba_1.html

[wyldwolf]

35. they forgot to add the the rest

"I have spoken to Senator Obama -- he knew what I meant by it ."

[flpoljunkie]

42. That's Biden talking, digging the hold deeper. Yes, Obama did know what he meant.

This is what Hotline reported on this...

As to the effect it might have on the African-American vote, Biden: "I have no doubt that Jesse Jackson and other black leaders ... knew exactly what I meant. We have a very, very long relationship. ... There will be no misunderstanding."

http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/01/biden_calls_oba_1.html

[MidwestTransplant]

36. Biden was definitely in artful in how he came across but anybody

who would believe clean referred to hygienic is more ridiculous than Biden sounded.

[beaconess]

40. His implication that all previous black candidates were corrupt is worse.

[MidwestTransplant]

41. I can only think of 3 (JJ, Rev. Al and Braun). All of them had there definite problems

They are not nearly as clean as Obama.

[beaconess]

43. First, they weren't the only three, second, they are just as clean as any other candidate, including

Obama.

Rep. Shirley Chisholm, Gov. Doug Wilder, Alan Keyes, and Frederick Douglass all ran for president.

None of them, as far as I know, have been charged with corruption.

And Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Carol Moseley-Braun have also not been charged with corruption. And all of these people are articulate and bright. So why is Biden so surprised and amazed that Obama is, too?

The bottom line is that Obama is NOT the first bright, articulate, and "clean" black person to run for president. If Biden doesn't know this, HE's not bright enough to be president. And if he knows this but made this stupid comment anyway, he's too inarticulate to be president. And considering Biden's own history of shady behavior, he really doesn't need to be commenting on anyone else's political morality.

[MidwestTransplant]

46. Keys and Chrisholm were not viable. Don't know if Duglass was.

Need one be charged with corruption to be corrupt? Let's ask Dick Cheney and George Bush.

[beaconess]

47. Well, then that means that EVERY candidate is corrupt since they've all been accused at one time or

another. Even Obama has been accused of corruption.

Suggesting that it's an unusual thing for a black candidate to be corruption-free - especially given how morally challenged so many white candidates are - is not only inaccurate, it is an insulting nod (intentiaonal or not) to the kind of stereotypes that some of the worst elements of our society love to perpetuate.

And Biden didn't say anything about viability - you're putting words in his mouth. Nice of you to want to defend him, but his comments were inaccurate, stupid and insulting. If this is the best he can do at this stage in his political career, he's STILL not ready for prime time and definitely doesn't need to be president.

[goodhue]

48. Indeed, Obama himself has had to disavow connections to Tony Rezko

pretty recent history . . .

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-0611050397nov05,1,614987.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-0612240343dec24,1,5019735.story?coll=chi-newslocalchicago-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

[MidwestTransplant]

49. I was rebutting your argument about being "charged with corruption"

His quote was " I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,”

JJ, Keys or Rev Al aren't great looking "guys" in my opinion. He was pointing out that Obama is unique in all these ways combined.

Regardless this is a stupid argument and he is an idiot for saying what he said anyway.

[goodhue]

44. Chisolm in 72, Wilder in 92

Not sure how clean they are or were relative to Obama. Frankly, I'm at a loss as to what clean really means in this context. What is it that makes Obama particularly clean, and why don't the others got it?

[CTyankee]

80. When I was growing up in segregated Texas in the 50s "clean" was

a complement about a black person as in, "She is a nice colored girl, very clean", if you were considering hiring her as your house maid. It also meant making a neat and orderly presentation, which one would want if she was to let visitors in or serve at the table. So in that context "clean" would mean "fit to work in my house."

My husband, who is from Wisconsin, never lived in the segregated south. He has a different take on Biden's use of "clean." He says Biden meant "fresh." I think if Biden had meant fresh he probably would have described him as "a fresh face" or having "fresh ideas."

I am reminded once again of the hidden racism in our use of language. What my northern husband failed to understand I "got" right away, like radar. When you've lived it, you know it.

[Guaranteed]

54. You're letting him off very, very easy. nt

[goodhue]

51. Lightning in a jar . . .

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/politics/index.ssf?/base/politics-8/117028884871580.xml&storylist=electionmi

Biden fields questions about '08 rivals
1/31/2007, 7:08 p.m. ET
By BETH FOUHY
The Associated Press

* * *

Biden told reporters that he'd used the word "clean" to describe Obama as "fresh and new," and that the choice of words was not meant to disparage other black candidates who'd run for president in the past, such as civil rights leaders Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Obama, Biden said, "is probably the most exciting candidate the Democratic or Republican parties have produced since I've been around. He's fresh, new, smart, insightful. Lightning in a jar."

* * *

[ProudDad]

56. ALL white people in this country

(among other countries) learn racism at their mother's teat...

It's SO built into white "society" and training that it can't be avoided.

One can only recognize and reject those early teachings and hope that someday race, religion and other irrelevant, superficial characteristics won't matter.

[Imagevision]

57. a month TOPS on Biden presidential bid...!

[Zynx]

64. Was over yesterday, imo.

[salin]

58. *snark alert*

so the explanation = more plagerism?

just couldn't resist the snark.

[lojasmo]

69. Biden made a stupid, condescending statement, bordering on being racist

No surprise from a DLC tool.

[fishwax]

70. so it appears Biden himself isn't sure what he meant

With him saying he meant Obama *he hasn't got a criminal record* in one instance and saying he meant Obama was fresh and new and had new ideas in another instance, then why should any of us accept that his meaning is clear cut and unoffensive?

[terip64]

71. He needs to stop talking...n/t

[LittleClarkie]

73. As was so often pointed out to me re: Kerry

it's not what you say, or what you meant to say, but how it gets played in the media and in the public that can do you in. It's very hard to undo once it's done.

Eh, bless his heart, he'll be imploding soon.

[cui bono]

77. I'm sorry but WHO FUCKING CARES???

[The Count]

78. Soo...it wasn't about soap, it was about criminality...all rightey then.

He surely is not a racist. This reminds me more and more of the Macaca defenses...There was a mother there too....

[CTyankee]

81. Subject: When I was growing up in segregated Texas in the 50s "clean" was

a complement about a black person as in, "She is a nice colored girl, very clean", if you were considering hiring her as your house maid. It also meant making a neat and orderly presentation, which one would want if she was to let visitors in or serve at the table. So in that context "clean" would mean "fit to work in my house."

My husband, who is from Wisconsin, never lived in the segregated south. He has a different take on Biden's use of "clean." He says Biden meant "fresh." I think if Biden had meant fresh he probably would have described him as "a fresh face" or having "fresh ideas."

I am reminded once again of the hidden racism in our use of language. What my northern husband failed to understand I "got" right away, like radar. When you've lived it, you know it.

[Texaroo]

82. "Imply" versus "Infer"

[Texaroo]

83. "Imply" versus "Infer"

OK, this ridiculous self-destructuve behavior has GOT to stop. As liberals, we are supposed to be the party of intellectuals and free thinking. One would think that enough people would get the difference between imply and infer.

Joe Biden did not imply ANYTHING other than a high compliment with his remarks, totally in context, with a smile on his face,and, in fact, distinguished Obama from a field of candidates with political and other baggage that is decidedly unclean.

A few, shallow, whiny-assed, opportunistic, dumbasses INFERRED from these comments some racial connotation that was not there. Context is everything - this isn't Jesse Helms talking about the hygiene of his limo driver. I am a Texas liberal - if I say I am proud of my political viewpoint, and I am from Texas, the weak-minded could infer that I support George Bush, the war, that I use the Constitution as toilet paper, that I am anti-Civil Rights, and the sort. If you DID that, of course, I would distance myself from your stupidity and idiocy, because you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion, which might just compromise some political support.

I can INFER from those criticizing Biden that they are closet Republicans, and don't have enough confidence in Barack Obama to take Biden's remarks as the high compliment, and turn this around by saying, "even the other Democratic contenders seem to think Obama is a wonderful leader of high moral values." It is defeatist to constantly remind people of racial differences by contexting ANY comment as race-based. Could Biden have used a better term? Sure. Does he deserve to have the Klan hood placed on his head for using a neutral, complimentary term? Hell, no.

I am with the Jane Austen view - rise above this crap, folks. You are out-Rushing Mr. Limpnuts.

[beaconess]

85. I and many other blacks (and others) were offended by his comments and we are not "shallow, whiny-

assed, opportunistic, dumbasses."

Just because YOU weren't offended by his comments and don't seem to have a clue why others might be, does not mean that anyone who disagrees with you should be attacked by you in such a nasty way.

[Texaroo]

86. I have EVERY clue...

Because, as I pointed out, there's a difference between "imply" and "infer." As I stated - Biden used a term that was less than optimal. But it was totally in context, and was in a stream of complimentary, respectful language. Biden singled Obama out from a FIELD OF CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES as "clean." Not from a field of former minority candidates and politicians, or a field of black people, or a cornfield, or a baseball field. CONTEXT.

Just remember - YOU chose to be offended. Joe Biden was not CHOOSING to offend. The "opportunistic, etc." folks to which I refer are those who make media statements and escalate this issue to get in a few minutes of air time.

If you are offended, don't support Biden. And I didn't attack you for being offended - I just believe that to harp on this endlessly is pointless. Rise above it, and let's engage in some meaningful debate about real issues where Biden and Obama, as candidates for the office of President, have differing views. Obama doesn't need this - he's got real ideas and is a natural leader.

Again, you are INFERRING that I intend to offend. Not at all - I just think this is pointless discussion, and that there is no subtext. I also believe that your inferences are drawn from your background, and that if you have the ability to turn off that filter for a second, you may be able to see what I am saying.

[beaconess]

88. I neither implied nor inferred your intent. I merely commented on your characterization

of those who disagree with you in this discussion.

But thanks for the lecture about how I should behave, how I should view this issue and what I should "choose" to be offended by. Since you are so irritated by the discussion about this subject, perhaps you should follow your own advice. "Rise above it" and "engage in some meaningful debate" instead of resorting to calling people who disagree with you "whiny-assed, opportunistic dumbasses."

[Texaroo]

90. Have a great day.

I am truly sorry you think I called you a name. As for my "lecture" - my comments are absolutely relevant to this thread. I see that you may have some first amendment issues.

Your INFERENCE indicates you think Joe Biden is a racist. Isn't THAT name-calling? Over a neutral term. Now, I can understand you and others have sensitivity to language - most people do. But the downside of that sensitivity is that you can be emotionally manipulated by propagandists.

That's the same trait that attracts dittoheads to Rush Limbaugh. May I assume that you consider that I might be a racist just because I don't give the word "clean" the same gravity as you? If so, that's your inference - nothing I have posted implies that.

I am sorry you CHOOSE to remain at a level far below meaningful debate. And, for the record, I didn't call people who disagree with me ANYTHING - I called a certain group of people "whiny-assed, opportunistic dumbasses" because they turned a compliment into a racist media event. Now, you are welcome to allow them to manipulate the way you think by playing upon your inherent biases and suspicions, and it's the intellectually weaker way to go, but I acknowledge that the emotional component is obviously relevant for you.

Still, your choice. Free country.

[cadmium]

89. I took clean to mean free from baggage-- a fresh

face. This is a blown up flap like Obama's grade school and Edwards' house. Biden lists Obamas characteristics that make him a political star. Big deal.

[Texaroo]

91. Precisely.

Maybe I should just be more succinct. Context, context, context. To me, the comment was a positive distinction of Obama as compared to the other candidates. It was INCLUSIVE and ADMIRING. The recast is petty, and is a form of character assassination.

[cadmium]

92. "Liberal" talk show The Young Turks were hitting him on it.

Either they were just looking for a trumped up excuse to wound Biden or they are as gullible as the general public. I think they are just gullible and need to fill air time.

Randi Rhodes however recognized it as a hyped - up nonstory. She said something like "Biden has a big mouth -- so what---what's the big deal" Oh by the way while you arent looking they cranking up the fear machine for an Iran invasion.

[goodhue]

93. so fresh and so new