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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:09 AM
Original message
Who's responsible for our troops dying???

See if you can guess who made this speech on October 11, 2002...
------------------------

"I'm here to speak in support of the resolution before us, which I cosponsored. I believe we must vote for this resolution not because we want war, but because the national security of our country requires action. Mr. President, the prospect of using force to protect our security is the most difficult decision a nation must ever make.

We all agree that this is not an easy decision. It carries many risks. If force proves necessary, it will also carry costs, certainly in resources, and perhaps in lives. After careful consideration, I believe that the risks of inaction are far greater than the risks of action.

Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal.

Iraq has continued to seek nuclear weapons and develop its arsenal in defiance of the collective will of the international community, as expressed through the United Nations Security Council. It is violating the terms of the 1991 cease-fire that ended the Gulf War and as many as 16 Security Council resolutions, including 11 resolutions concerning Iraq's efforts to develop weapons of mass destruction.

By ignoring these resolutions, Saddam Hussein is undermining the credibility of the United Nations, openly violating international law, and making a mockery of the very idea of collective action that is so important to the United States and its allies.

We cannot allow Saddam Hussein to get nuclear weapons in violation of his own commitments, our commitments, and the world's commitments.

This resolution will send a clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its determination to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

The United States must do as much as possible to build a new United Nations Security Council coalition against Saddam Hussein.

Although the administration was far too slow to start this diplomatic process – squandering valuable time to bring nations to our side – I support its recent efforts to forge a new UN Security Council resolution to disarm Iraq.

If inspectors go back into Iraq, they should do so with parameters that are air-tight, water-tight, and Saddam-tight. They should be allowed to see what they want when they want -- anytime, anywhere, without warning, and without delay.

Yet if the Security Council is prevented from supporting this new effort, then the United States must be prepared to act with as many allies with possible to address this threat.

We must achieve the central goal of disarming Iraq. Of course, the best outcome would be a peaceful resolution of this issue. No one here wants war. We all hope that Saddam Hussein meets his obligations to existing Security Council Resolutions and agrees to disarm, but after 11 years of watching Hussein play shell-games with his weapons programs, there is little reason to believe he has any intention to comply with an even tougher resolution. We cannot trust Saddam Hussein, and we would be irresponsible to do so.

That is why we must be prepared to use force, if necessary, to disarm Saddam Hussein, and eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction once and for all.

Almost no one disagrees with these basic facts: that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a menace; that he has weapons of mass destruction and that he is doing everything in his power to get nuclear weapons; that he has supported terrorists; that he is a grave threat to the region, to vital allies like Israel, and to the United States; and that he is thwarting the will of the international community and undermining the United Nations' credibility.

Yet some question why Congress should act now to give the president the authority to act against Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction.

I believe we should act now for two reasons: first, bipartisan congressional action on a strong, unambiguous resolution, like the one before us now, will strengthen America's hand as we seek support from the Security Council and seek to enlist the cooperation of our allies.

If the administration continues its strong, if belated, diplomacy, backed by the bipartisan resolve of the Congress, I believe the United States will succeed in rallying many allies to our side.

Second, strong domestic support and a broad international coalition will make it less likely that force would need to be used. Saddam Hussein has one last chance to adhere to his obligations and disarm, and his past behavior shows that the only chance he will comply is if he is threatened with force.

Of course, there is no guarantee that he will comply even if threatened by force, but we must try.

Others argue that if even our allies support us, we should not support this resolution because confronting Iraq now would undermine the long-term fight against terrorist groups like Al Qaeda. Yet, I believe that this is not an either-or choice. Our national security requires us to do both, and we can.

Mr. President, the resolution before us today is significantly better than the one the president initially submitted. It is not a blank check. It contains several provisions that I and many of my colleagues have long argued were required.

First, it gives the administration the authority to use all necessary means to eliminate the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction.

Second, it calls on the administration to do as much as possible to forge a new UN Security Council mandate, understanding that if new Security Council action proves impossible, the United States must be prepared to act with as many allies as will join us.

Third, it requires the administration to report to Congress on its plans to assist with Iraq's transition to democracy after Saddam Hussein is gone.

It is in America's national interest to help build an Iraq at peace with itself and its neighbors, because a democratic, tolerant and accountable Iraq will be a peaceful regional partner. Such an Iraq could serve as a model for the entire Arab world.

So far, we have not heard nearly enough from the administration about its plans for assisting the Iraqi people as they rebuild their lives and create a new, democratic government. The president has said that the U.S. will help, but he hasn't offered any details about how.

As we've learned in Afghanistan, this administration's words are not enough. This resolution will require the administration to move beyond its words and share with Congress, and the world, its concrete plans for how America will support a post-Saddam Iraq.

Finally, Mr. President, in taking this action, Congress must make clear that any actions against Iraq are part of a broader strategy to strengthen American security in the Middle East, and indeed around the world.

We must do more to support existing non-proliferation and disarmament programs that can help prevent access to the weapons-grade materials that tyrants like Saddam Hussein want. We must demand America's active and continuous involvement in addressing the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians, and promoting democratization throughout the Arab world. We must commit to developing a national strategy for energy security, one that would reduce our reliance on the Middle East for such critical resources.

Mr. President, the decision we must make now is one a nation never seeks. Yet when confronted with a danger as great as Saddam Hussein, it is a decision we must make. America's security requires nothing less."

----------------
Was it Hillary Clinton? actually No.
Was it Barack Obama? Couldn't have been.

It was...

John Edwards. http://web.archive.org/web/20040604074710/edwards.senate.gov/statements/20021010_iraq.html

Edwards would love nothing more than you to forget that he made this speech. But the bill that this speech praises is the one responsible for the fact that our troops will be dying in Iraq this summer...

Barack Obama's failure to come out against this funding bill fast enough (and Hillary's for that matter--though she also voted for the IWR)is NOT responsible in any way, shape or form for our troops being in harms way this summer.

Think about why Edwards is stirring up outrage over the funding bill. he's using it as a distraction from the real cause of our troops' predicament, the IWR which he co-sponsored and voted for. He's doing it to pull the heat off of himself.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well, the subject of your post, and the message, are incongruent.
It doesn't matter if Edwards advocated sending 12 year olds into combat.

He isn't the one "responsible for our troops dying."

That responsibility, and that authority, falls to the asshole our servicmembers are forced to regard as Commander-in-Chief.

And NO ONE else.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I can't disagree with you
but I can't help but feel that Edwards is fanning outrage for his own political benefit.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Nothing happens in a vacuum. I used to be one of the "less than 20 percent"
After "Nahn Wun Wun changed everything," I was one of the minority in this country who cried "Bullshit!" as the march to war began. And I did it at every turn. I was excoriated by people I regarded as friends, many of whom recoiled at my comments. Nowadays, they acknowledge that I was spot-on in what I told them, and realize they were conned.

But eighty percent or more of this country WAS conned. And the Corporate Media (GE...we bring good wars to life!--just one example) joined the parade because WAR is GOOD for their BOTTOM LINE.

A lot of supposedly smart people were conned. Some of them were Senators, certainly.

I used to live over "that way" though, and I had a pretty comprehensive understanding of the region and the issues, going back many years. So I wasn't conned.

I really think Senators ought to be required to take "Country Study" classes every year, with particular focus on countries our Pretzledunce is thinking about invading or bombing. It sure as hell couldn't hurt....
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. the major flaw
was that no one opposed to the war got their message out. All people heard was bush's rhetoric. So of course they are going to believe it.

Crises are when leaders need their clearest heads. I can't divest Dems of all responsibility for the war becuase they controlled a body of Congress, and they also gladly gave Bush the authority he wanted.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. The people that are shooting and bombing them?
:shrug:
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. apparently according to some people
Bararck Obama killed them by not taking a position fast enough...
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. This is a great post!
Edwards is in the interesting position of no longer having to lay out a political roadmap that includes having to put his Senate vote where his mouth is. He has renounced his vote for the war authorization which he somehow feels gives him immunity from accountability and superiority over those who are still in the Senate. The simple fact that nearly all those in Congress gave Bush the rubber stamp is an enormous liability, and their continued actions (and inaction) are not helping them.

Edwards is no different.
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enough already Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
6. As of yesterday, the Democrats are co-owners of this war.
unreal
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. why not in 2002?
the Dems did control the senate and could have refused to consider IWR.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Those who voted for authorization are co-owners.
Those who have been working hard to bring this mess to a close get a pass.

This is Bush's war. His refusal to negotiate with Congress means that he is not interested in alternatives, so it is all his.

Congress recognized their horrible position -- and lack of authority to invoke change -- and turned the reins over to Bush. To say that Congress now owns the war is ridiculous, and the reality is exactly the opposite: this in now Bush's problem and his liability.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Bullshit. The Republicans are responsible. Period. End of story.
enough already.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
41. Precisely. Well said.
What a masochistic twisting of culpability that attempt was...and how lame, too.
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CTD Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
10. Not to defend Edwards, but there is a BIG difference
Edwards gave that speech when it wasn't yet proven that Bush was lying and could not be trusted. Sure, WE suspected it. But none of us actually knew for a fact.

Now we do.

I hate the, "I believed the administration" excuse. But at least back then there was *some* ambiguity as to the truth.

No such ambiguity exists today. Yet Hillary and Barack still do not see the clear moral imperative here.

And, to this voter, that is a major problem.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Well, maybe you need to see how the two Senators voted yesterday.
I can't understand why you have a "major problem" with the way they voted....

Unless you've got stock in Raytheon?
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CTD Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Maybe you need to see WHEN they voted
Only after the bill passed. And neither spoke of their intention to vote against the bill prior to voting.

It is clear that they were waiting until it was "safe" to cast their votes.

So I don't have to repeat myself, read my post here- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3281679&mesg_id=3282390
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:40 AM
Original message
WHEN they voted? You are raising a fuss about WHEN they voted?
The board for your attitude starts with an F, not a D.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
40. I know when they voted. It was always "safe." Reid knows how to count.
It doesn't matter when they voted, at the end of the day. People who don't like them will just say they voted AGAINST raising the minimum wage.

Whatever.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. are you serious
you are more harsh on Hillary and Barack who came out the right way on a funding bill that, even if it failed, would not have pulled our troops out this summer, than on Edwards who helped lead the charge into iraq?????

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CTD Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. But today we KNOW Bush is lying and cannot be trusted
We only strongly suspected it back then.

Hillary and Barack did not oppose this bill. They only voted after it already passed as a pandering move to us "loonies".
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. but don't they look like they oppose the troops?????
Couldn't a republican say "they voted against funding our troops?"
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CTD Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Don't you think if they felt strongly about this that they should have...
...that they should have come out early on this and tried to influence other senators votes?

It's typical DLC stuff. Repub-lite. Trying to have it both ways.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. that may be
but it dodges the issue of what nefarious poltical benefit they gain from waiting until the bill is sure to pass.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. Edwards was on the Intelligence Committee
The Intelligence Committee had the true intelligence in the NIE of October 1 2002 and it did not support the case Bushco was publicly making. Edwards co-sponsored the IWR and hawked the war in spite of what he knew. No ambiguity whatsoever.
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grmamo Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. ya know what, I seem to remember that the admin was not giving all the committee the same info
and people were complaining only republicans were getting briefings. I wasn't there so I do not know one way or the other. BUT, I have watched Edwards since he left office, I like his positions.

It seems to me there are people attacking Edwards because they know he is a valid candidate. The more he is attacked, the more I will support him.......no more swift boating for me! Leadership is important and waiting to vote after bill has the votes needed to pass is NOT leadership.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. The Intelligence Committee received intel direct
It was the Intelligence Committee which demanded the October 1 NIE. The Congress at large received a misleading summary. That's the difference.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
13. You know, I was just thinking about this this morning...
Not necessarily the Edwards speech, but this (in general):
Finally, Mr. President, in taking this action, Congress must make clear that any actions against Iraq are part of a broader strategy to strengthen American security in the Middle East, and indeed around the world.

It is all too painfully clear now that "American security" means the corporations decide who to invade and kill. And their instructions to do so are given to their toadies in the US government to carry out. I used to believe this "American security" bullshit when the "commies" were attempting to take Vietnam and Australia, and then march up Main Street, USA. I was a fool. It was all about corporate hegemony. And the Iraq War is all about corporate hegemony disguised as "American security."

So now I ask this question: What if I decide that rising gas prices threaten KansDem's family security. What if I find it increasingly more problematic to buy gas to get to my job and food to put on the table? Can I declare that the gas station down the street is threatening my family's security so I can invade the pumps and take gas by force if I have to? What's to stop me (besides the prospect of getting caught and spending time in prison)? Is it because I believe to do so would violate the very premise of civilization? It sure as hell isn't the 9th and possible 7th Commandments! (That God is busy leading Bush and his minions in the Middle East). But, if I get desperate enough (like the ones who are raping and pillaging in Iraq), and come to believe that taking gasoline is in the best interests of my family, what's to stop me and why would my argument be any different than CorpUSA?

"American security" means that we invade and kill a people because a few wealthy, powerful individuals want to get wealthier and more powerful. And those individuals call on their stooges in the Government to make the rest of us believe their action is all for "American security."


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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. That's a hell of a thought for the morning, I like it
"Is it because I believe to do so would violate the very premise of civilization?"

Depends on what you think the premise is.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
19. Not Edwards. Not Clinton or Clark or Kerry.
ALL of them made speeches similar to the one you posted. All of them have since called the invasion a mistake.

Bush is responsible for our troop deaths, and more importantly to me, he is responsible for the hundreds of thousands of deaths of innocent Iraqis. He invaded a nation at peace. He lied to start the war, he is using strong arm tactics to keep it going beyond any semblance of sanity, and beyond any hope of a good outcome.

I'm sickened by the handful of Edwards's supporters who are accusing Clinton and Obama. (More than that, I'm sickened by the obvious invasion of our board by Freeper sorts trying to turn us against Clinton and Obama for voting the right way.) But I'm not going to bash Edwards for it, or blame him for starting the war. I do accuse him of being disingenuous, but this is national politics. They are all disingenuous.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. Can you give me instances of YES voters to the IWR
citing Clark's testimony as an influence on their vote? Clark was against the war then, since and now. Once it was clear the IWR would pass, he lobbied for the Levin aletrnative to the IWR, but he never advocated an invasion of Iraq or passage of the IWR, not once, not ever.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
21. Real classy.
What a classy attack on the one who is speaking up now. Obama and Hillary played a game of oh let me see how the other will vote then I will vote the same...

And you attack Edwards

This place is a madhouse, and the people supporting Obama are utterly tasteless in their attacks on others.
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Justyce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Amen. You took the words right out of my mouth.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. are you going to change your avatar?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. We all read it, we all know it. Even less classy for you to do that.
A lot of us stopped our DNC donations until he stops sounding like inside DC.

But that doesn't change the fact that these attacks from Obama people on Edwards are totally tasteless and show no class and substance.

Fight for your guy the right way.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. tell JRE to stop treating a three month bill like its the end of the world
NT
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. That deserves no answer.
.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. of course not
cause there is none.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Edwards is turning the party's base against it
Edited on Fri May-25-07 09:45 AM by darboy
to benefit himself and to get out from under his cowardly IWR vote and co-sponsorship. He's the one who is classless. Fuck him.

Obama and Hillary VOTED THE RIGHT WAY, which is more than JRE ever did.

Even Howard Dean understands the predicament the Dems were in.
Did the Dems handle it correctly? not really.
could they have done more? of course.

Is the world going to end because of this? NO. A new bill and a new opportunity for debate will happen in September.

We will be debating this again before you know it.
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venable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. would you like to comment maturely on Edwards strong voice now
or does that not matter as much as scoring political points?

which matters to you, the most vocal current anti-war candidacy, or placing blame.

(by the way, it is Bush's war, in case you haven't been paying close enough attention. not Edwards, or Hillary's, or any Democrat's. To deny this is to deny reality)

Edwards and his supporters know about the vote, the speeches, the co-sponsorship. all of which we regret, as he does.

we care about this country in many ways, from domestic issues to the war, and that is why we support Edwards and his calls to bring the troops home now.

what do you care about? politics or ending the war? your call.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Edwards is intentionally riling up emotions about this
and turning people against Dems in Congress for his own benefit. the bill is for THREE MONTHS!!

Now, people think Obama is less anti war than Edwards because Obama didn't make up his mind fast enough, even though he was against this war before it started back when the war was more popular than baseball and apple pie.

Do you think sending the same bill over and over would really do anything? Do you think a little annoyance such as a lack of appropriated funding will force bush to pull troops out? Do you think he will do anything other than keep the troops there on a shoestring budget until Jan 20, 2009 absent a threat by his own party of impeachment?
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grmamo Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. I agree with you
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 10:20 AM
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. I mailed you a check
where is my I DONTATED sign? :o
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