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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 03:37 PM
Original message
Mukasey Approved by SJC: This is NOT America
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 04:10 PM by Vyan
At least that's what I keep telling myself.

This is NOT America!

The real America is still out there, like the elusive "Truth" from The X-Files, somewhere. This fear besotted place can't be it. It can't be America where the Senate Judiciary Committee would seriously entertain approving a candidate for Attorney General who couldn't find an act of Torture with a Map, a Flashlight, a Compass and a pocket GPS unit?

A man so supine to Presidential will that 24 Intel professionals wrote that if he can't answer a simple question on torture we'd be better off with no one at all.

We are aware that the president warned last week that it will be either Mukasey as our attorney general or no one. So be it.


Today as Mukasey is approved by the SJC by a vote of 11 to 8, I wonder who it is that can hear the low heart-sick gutteral groan from the heart of the real America that has remained hidden, clubbed, gagged and dumped in the basement for the past six years?

I keep wondering and hearing that line from the old Talking Heads song...

How did we get here?

Yes, yes - we all know about The 9-11 and how it changed everything.

Except that it didn't change justice. It didn't change cruelty. It didn't change the human heart. It didn't change our reality.

Or did it?

Six years have passed now and it's all been like some bad turgid nightmare. A simultaneous Phantasm for 300 Million people at once. The Technicolor has drained from the nation and it's all gone grey. A sick sepia tone grey with sharp edges of hard left and hard right.

At the Concert For New York, we all stood together as one America as one Firefighter stood and said (not an exact quote)...

Bin Laden can kiss my White Irish Ass!!

We all cheered and cried as The Who bashed out "Won't get fooled Again!"

But we did get fooled again.

We we're all together during the invasion of Afghanistan.

Then it all went horribly wrong. Bin Laden escaped at Tora Bora, and Bush got just. simply. got. bored. He used bad intel, and worse intel to justify invading the Country that had tried to kill his father back in the 90's. They said it would be a "Cakewalk". They said they had "WMD's" and Nuclear Ambitions.

It was none-of-the-above.

One lone former Ambassador to Iraq raised his hand to say "Hey! That's not what I saw!" and they tried to smoosh him and his Undercover CIA Agent Wife Working on Iraq and Iran WMD's like a bug.

Since then we've had Gitmo. Fallujah. Abu Ghraib. Haditha. Moumoudiya.

While our own country remains neglected to the tune of the storm surge from Katrina and the crash of Minnesota Bridge on the river below - the Fear Card keeps getting played over and over again like a endless set of "24" (Torture-Porn!) reruns.

You're either with us, or your with the terrorist!

No, we just don't think that America should use the same tactics and techniques as the Khmer Rouge - that's all. We really should have never reached a point where the Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy would ever have to actually come out and say something like this.

HUTSON: Well, what should have happened—what happened for you know, 200 years of American history and 500 years of world history, we should have identified this as torture and the administration should have said—this is a line over which the United States will not cross. In fact, we won‘t even come close to that line. But rather, in a sort of fearful sort of way, we said, well, maybe this is something we have to do. You know, torture is the interrogation technique of choice for the lazy, the stupid and the pseudo tough. It‘s not the technique of real intelligence officers.


You don't want us to listen to their coversations and stop their attacks?

No, we just want you to have Probable Cause first. And a Warrant, that's really not to Fracking much to ask for is it?

You don't want to win the War on Terror!

And losing would gain us what exactly? No, we want to win - but we also want to fight it with -- what's that word again? oh yeah -- a sense of Honor, Integrity and Decency. All that stuff Dubya promised to "return to White House" while he actually burying it somewhere deep on the south lawn.

He's the thing, if we "win it" your way - we've still lost.

You Liberals Hate America

No, we Love the America that actually does stand for freedom, human rights , due process and the rule of law --- all the stuff from that dusty ole Constitution thingy. But I tell you we do Hate what Right-Wing Jack-booted Delusional Syncophant Dickheads have being Doing to Our America since 2002.

You're a Phony Soldier!

This is what they say if you ever wore a uniform and then tried to tall the truth about the fact that the Iraq War has been a farce since it began, and we need our forces out of there because guess what - the Country that Bin Laden has actually been hiding in, and has a standing non-aggression treaty with the Taliban just had a freaking Military Coup and suspended their own Constitution!

And what's Dubya doing about it?

He's thinking a making a stern phone call to Musharraf. Maybe. After he cleared some more brush. In the meantime he's probably wondering how to pull the same trick here 'cuz...

Things would be a whole lot easier if this were a Dictatorship - as long as I'm the Dictator.

They keep telling us "we're turning a corner" and "Iraq is getting better" - the violence in Iraq is down (because all the Ethnic Cleansing has just about been completed) yet we just broke the annual world record (again) for the number of American Military Deaths in that country.

Woohoo.. We're Number one! We're Number One!

Er, or not.

God, can't you hear that groan?

It's like 100 freight trains grumbling under the Rockies.

It seems to me that Keith Olbermann hears the groan... like a clarion call.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arWJ358tZgU

Daniel Levin should have a statue in his honor in Washington right now. Instead, he was forced out as acting assistant attorney general nearly three years ago because he had the guts to do what George Bush could not do in a million years, actually put himself at risk for the sake of his country, for the sake of what is right, and they water boarded him. And he wrote that even though he knew those doing it meant him no harm, and he knew they would rescue him at the instant of a slightest distress, and he knew he would not die, still with all that reassurance, he could not stop the terror screaming from inside of him, could not quell the horror, could not convince that which is at the core of each of us, the entity who exists behind all the embellishments we strap to ourself, like purpose and name and family and love, he could not convince his being that he wasn‘t drowning.

Water boarding, he said, is torture. Legally it is torture. Practically it is torture. Ethically it is torture. And he wrote it down. Wrote it down somewhere where it could be contrasted with the words of this country‘s 43rd president. The United States of America does not torture. Made you into a liar, Mr. Bush. Made you into, if anybody had the guts to pursue it, a criminal, Mr. Bush.



Full Transcript

The Criminal Conspiracy that Olbermann speaks of was revealed long ago when Alberto Gonzales wrote the first torture memo - long before the infamous Bybee document - that directed the President to deny Geneva conventions to terrorist detainees not because they didn't "deserve them" but specifically to prevent being prosecuted for War Crimes.

Olberman's question of what might happen if a detainee were to die during waterboarding or "intense interrogation" isn't just a "hypothetical" - some of the abused detainees at Abu Ghriab died.

Amnesty International has reported that at least 34 detainees have died in U.S. Custody, some of them as the result of Homocide during Interrogation.

It is now known that at least 34 detainees who died in US custody have had their deaths listed by the army as confirmed or suspected criminal homicides. The true number of such deaths may be higher as there is evidence that delays, cover-ups and deficiencies in investigations have hampered the collection of evidence.(5) In several cases, however, substantial evidence has emerged that detainees were tortured to death while under interrogation (revealed, for example, in military autopsy reports, investigation records and recent court testimony). What is even more disturbing is that standard practices as well as interrogation techniques believed to have fallen within officially sanctioned parameters, appear to have played a role in the ill-treatment...


So the idea that somebody might die - eventually - isn't just a paranoid fantasy. It's already happened, repeatedly.

THAT IS WHAT AMERICA HAS BECOME. A country that not only tortures, but murders without due process or probable cause purely out of FEAR.

In the process we have become our own worst nightmare. We have become the overlords of former Soviet Union's Gulags. We have become the owners of The Killing Fields.

It's easy, as Keith does, to focus all of our horror at what this nation has become over the last half-dozen years squarely on the shoulders of George W. Bush.

But it would be wrong.

He didn't do this alone. Not hardly. He had an enormous heaping of help from Richard Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Scooter Libby, David Addington, Karl Rove, Harriet Miers, Alberto Gonzales, Jeff Gannon/Gucket, General Ricardo Sanchez, General Tommy Franks, General David Patreaus, Monica Goodling, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Roger Ailes, Brit Hume, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Alan Colmes, Bill Frist, Dennis Hastert, Tom Delay, Joe Liebermann, Diane Feinstein, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Hillary Clinton and Millions upon Millions More who continue to sleep walk through this horror. Aiders and abetters to this False America's crimes yet seemingly oblivous to consequences of their own actions.

It's time for us to wake up from this nightmare. Starting in the next few months we have to make some hard decisions about the future direction of this country. We can't afford to wait until next November - we have to start taking a stand against unprovoked War, against Torture, against Unlimited Executive Power and for the Constitution, for the Rule of Law RIGHT FREAKING NOW.

We have to let our Representatives in Congress and those who Know that we can not let this stand.

It. Has. To. Stop!

But it won't be easy. All the other people besides George Bush who've helped create this Nightmare aren't going anywhere after January of 2009. They'll still be here. All of them. The Ugly Angry Americans. And we'll have to deal with them. They will fight us, tooth, nail and claw for every inch of the Constitution we try to restore. Many of those on "our side" will crumble under the pressure. We're gonna be called every name in the book. We're going to be threatened as the Dixie Chicks were, we're going to be harrased, ridiculed (like the New Eagles album has been), marginalized (as Bruce Springsteen's New Anti-War album was dropped by Clear Channel) and every once in a while jailed and physically attacked for daring to speak out and stand for peace (as Reveral Lennox Yearwood was in the Halls of Congress).

Be we must not lose hope. We must not lose faith that eventually this phony shadow vision of America will crumble and fade away and the real America of promise, freedom hope and genuine justice will emerge.

We have to get back to that America, the Real America. Failure is not an option.

It's America or Bust.

Are you with me?

Vyan
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Welcome to DU! Yup, adults are in charge. We made a point and
moved on. The American people are well served.

I bid you peace.
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. Madness?
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 03:44 PM by sakabatou
This is not America...

THIS IS SPARTA!!



Had to do it
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Since AT LEAST WWII, this has been the true face of America
It used to be shrouded in secrecy, national security and simple lack of living witnesses.

Now we parade it down main street. And people are OK with this????

Pardon me while I go puke.

:puke:
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. What would have been so terrible about saying no to this
nomination?

I'm also sickened and disgusted. Now everyone, even the Freeps have to go underground. Fools. Even they will be shackled. Torture and the threat of torture. They won't have anyone to stand up for them either..... a federal government with no rules. America Broken....Republicans got want they fought for - business has run a muck and destroyed our democracy.:thumbsdown:
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Well the defense of letting him through has been
that junior would most likely appoint someone worse when the congress adjourns. Which I think does have some merit. I do think junior would have done exactly that. It still sucks though.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. Get rid of the water-carriers like Schumer - they aren't working for us
they alsways end up with the establishment powerstructure on the most serious matters.
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James Delinis Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. Schumer knows what's right
He just enjoys the perks of power far more.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. Do you know of a single American citizen being water boarded?
Or even a minor form of torture such as sleep depravation?
From what I know the water boarding type of torture is applied
only to enemy combatants captured in combat situation who do not
wear military uniforms, do not officially represent any country,
and were caught red handed killing Amricans, military AND CIVILIANS.

Unless new evidence surfaces that a single American citizen who is not
involved in terrorist plot to kill civilians was tortured, then I will
be the first one to oppose it. Until that happens, do whatever is necessary
to save innocent American lives.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. If we apply TORTURE at all - even to "enemy combatants" - then we've LOST our War on Terror
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 10:21 PM by ShortnFiery
If we are truly a Christian (Christ-like) nation, then WE DO NOT TORTURE ... EVER!!!
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. So how do we defend against the cold blooded terrorists such as
the gang of 19 on 911? How do we foil future attacks? Where does
it say in the bible that you are not to defend your life against
a ruthless beheading enemy?
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. We don't destroy terrorism which is "a tactic" around since the beginning of time.
We live in a FREE and fairly OPEN country. Either give up our FREEDOM to let "big daddy" authoritarian style government pseudo-protect us, OR live free and accept the true fate that not every EVIL in this world can be countered.

We are HUMAN BEINGS: There's not much in between when you begin to give up your liberties - it snowballs.

LIVE FREE OR DIE! I choose freedom.

No, I don't feel a need to look under my bed every night for the evil doers. Plus I've informed my family members that if I'm brutally murdered, to please NOT spend their life hating my killers. To come to terms with true evil in this world and move on with their lives.

No one person is inherently EVIL ... well save for a few (CHENEY!?!) so the *evil doers* and *terrorist* labels are shameless hype that is only used to stir up the masses. It's bullshit!

Live free and take some precautions. That's the best that we can do. For me, that is plenty ... IMO, that is as close as you can come on earth to Nirvana. :-)
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Would you be willing to exercise your freedom in Waziristan?
Will you please go and walk around there with a sign which
says "Freedom for all including women". I will pray for
you that you will not be beheaded. If you don't know where
Waziristan is, that is where Osama & Ayman are given sanctuary
in the western part of Pakistan.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. How about we have a president who listens to his intelligence
agencies instead of remarking "well, you've covered your ass" when told of an impending plot?

And, if you don't think that violating the Geneva Convention is a big deal, then you may be on the wrong board. If we go around torturing, then other countries will not mind to do the same to us.

Besides, ask any WWII vet still alive... ask them which worked better in getting info out of the Germans... cigarettes and candy or torture.

Torture DOES NOT work. Period.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I am pro-Geneva Convention when it is mutually used by both parties
Edited on Wed Nov-07-07 08:19 PM by dugggy
Which part of Geneva convention allows beheading of people? Which part of Geneva
convention says it is OK to plant bombs which kill civilians? Like I said we must
abide by the GC when the enemy also abides by it. But I don't believe in masochism.
The insurgents in Iraq have continued to violate the following articles from Geneva
convention:

a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

b) Taking of hostages;


Therefore they have forefeited the right to receive protections granted by the Geneva convention.
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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
33. You are making up your own rules
none of which exist in the current conventions.

Geneva applies to the conduct of the contracting parties only, not to those whom they may act upon. We are signatories of Geneva therefore we can not pick and choose whether Geneva applies to us and our actions - it does for as long as we are members of the treaty.

Under Article II of the Geneva Conventions.

The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.

Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.


Yes, the insurgents, and Al Qeada and the Shia Militia's have all violated the conventions - SO HAVE WE - but that doesn't change our responsibility to abide by them.

Vyan
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Hey! The "gang of 19" on 9/11 consisted of Bush pals and Halliburton cronies...
I bet you didn't know that 15 of the attackers were from Saudi Arabia, Bush's pals and business partners for decades and 2 of the attackers were from UAE, the very country Halliburton moved its international headquarters to earlier this year? I bet you didn't know that!

Maybe you ought to open your eyes and ears to the real story: that Bush's pals and business partners attacked us on 9/11.

We knew something was up prior to 9/11/01. We had foreign intelligence telling us that; we had the PDB for 8/6/01 telling us that; we had the FBI trailing known terrorists in this country before 9/11:

Moreover, the hijackers did not fly under the radar of the intelligence agencies. The agencies, it turns out, did in fact manage to spot—and even monitor—several several of the 9/11 hijackers before they carried out the attacks, in some cases long before. Yet for reasons that so far remain a mystery, counterterrorism officials at FBI headquarters and the CIA consistently dropped the ball when it came to apprehending them—sometimes acting in ways that ran counter to standard practice, at times to the bafflement and anger of their colleagues.

Common Dreams

I, for one, do not want to give up my freedom and liberty because some pissant in the White House was, at best incompetent and at worse complicit, in the attacks of 9/11/01. Remember the elementary school video that showed Bush sitting and doing nothing when told we were under attack?

Here, watch it for yourself:
youtube

Does this look like a commander-in-chief that is poised to "protect us from terrorism?" This video speaks volumes and tells me that there should have been a second trap door and noose on Saddam's gallows.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I wish you could prove your allegations in a court so that
Bush and his cronies can be punished if found guilty.
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I don't know about waterboarding, but torture?
Yes.

Yaser Esam Hamdi

The case of Yaser Esam Hamdi: Bush claims right to jail US citizens indefinitely, without charges or hearing
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jun2002/hamd-j24.shtml

Saudi-American Speaks Out on Confinement
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Yaser-Esam-Hamdi16oct04.htm

Never mind: Hamdi wasn't so bad after all
http://www.slate.com/id/2107114


Jose Padilla

All about Jose Padilla
http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/terrorists/jose_padilla/1.html

Padilla Jury Opens Pandora’s Box
http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts219.html


Army Capt. James Yee

The ordeal of Chaplain Yee
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-05-16-yee-cover_x.htm


"Whatever is necessary" is a devil's bargain. When we take it up, we ourselves become that devil.

"Today I am an inquisitor. An hyperbole would not be fictional and would not overstate the solemnness that I feel right now. My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total. And I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction, of the Constitution."

- Barbara Jordan, 25 July 1974, House Judiciary Committee

She wasn't talking about incarceration and torture, but her words carry the same weight for this issue. Every U.S. citizen is entitled to full rights and protections of the Constitution. Among these is the right to legal representation and a speedy and public trial by jury. Our government is barred from carrying out unreasonable searches and seizures, cruel and unusual punishment, and forcing people to testify against themselves. When these rights are taken away from some, we are all diminished, and eventually we are all in danger of losing those rights. Perilously so. According to Bush, we have already lost some of these rights with just the stroke of his pen. Do you really think that's a good thing?

Naming prisoners of war or even terrorists "enemy combatants" and refusing to follow federal and international laws and the Geneva Convention leaves our own troops open for the same barbaric treatment we've been guilty of at prisons like Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. Do you think our soldiers should be treated the way inmates have been treated in these places? We should treat prisoners of war as humanely as we would want our own soldiers to be treated until hostilities are over and both sides return them to one another. Suspected terrorists should be tried as criminals in a court of law, sentenced if found guilty, then compelled to serve that sentence.

There is no need nor place for torture.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. I said "except those involved in terrorist activity"
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Your opinion does not cancel out the Constitution.
Edited on Wed Nov-07-07 10:25 PM by crickets
Also - READ.

None of them were proven guilty of being involved in terrorist activity in a court of law with exception of Padilla, and his conviction is disputed. One more time: the Constitution does not make the distinction you are making. It does not state that it applies to every citizen "except suspected terrorists." There used to be a document that said something similar to what you're saying. It was the Confederate 'Constitution' - a mockery of our own that tacked the phrase "except slaves" to the end of every applicable sentence.

"If Padilla was involved in terror activities then he can't be granted the protections given to American citizens."

This is untrue. Not only that, it's illogical. There's no legal way to prove someone is involved in such activities without a trial. Innocent before proven guilty, remember?

READ.

Terrorists are considered criminals, not non-people who can be tortured at will. Only during GWB's administration has anyone made up an "unlawful enemy combatant" category to try to justify torture in spite of its prohibition by domestic law, international law, and the Geneva Convention. Do you even know what the Geneva Convention is? Do you realize that one reason why the US is a signatory is to safeguard the treatment of our own soldiers if they are captured?

By your comments elsewhere, I think you might want to review the Third Geneva Convention, especially Articles 4 and 5. It does take into account what we are discussing. Regardless of your opinion, we are a signatory to this and are therefore expected to abide by it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention

READ.

Torture is not the way to get good information from people. It's just sadism. It's also illegal. Kinda hard to stand up as the good guys when we're breaking the law. Not only that, the blowback involves teaching terrorists how to hurt us.

http://www.smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/

"Yet, convicted Al Qaeda members and innocent captives who were released to their host nations have already debriefed the world through hundreds of interviews, movies and documentaries on exactly what methods they were subjected to and how they endured. In essence, our own missteps have created a cadre of highly experienced lecturers for Al Qaeda’s own virtual SERE school for terrorists." (emphasis added)

If you don't believe me, you can check with Malcolm Nance.

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/authors/malcolm-nance/bio/

He's going to be explaining many of the same things during a hearing with House Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights, and Civil Liberties tomorrow.

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004659.php

It's a travesty that he even has to explain. Grown men and women who have sworn to uphold and protect the Constitution should, and do, already know.

edit: typo
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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. So American LIfe is more valuable
Edited on Wed Nov-07-07 01:25 PM by Vyan
than other kinds of life?

Secondly, there is every indication that Jose Padilla was extensively tortured - to the point that he is now virtually catatonic - and he is an American citizen. So was U.S. Army Capt. James Yee (as noted above)

Vyan
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. If Padilla was involved in terror activities then he can't
be granted the protections given to American citizens.
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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. And where is this in the
Constitution exactly?

Vyan
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. Constitution is not the law book where you find
details of each law. It is the framework under which laws are
made specifying details. No where in the constitution it says
I have to pay IRS every 3 months. Yet the law requires it.
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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
39. And how would you know that
until you've had a trial?

Besides the fact that your premise has no basis in law or fact. President Bush's attempt to exempt Enemy Combatants from Geneva fell flat on it's face almost a year ago with the result of the Hamdan Ruling. Nothiing - NOTHING - supports your position.

Vyan
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. My understanding is that a court room trial is not good
in certain cases because of national security concerns. I think
that makes sense when we are talking about threats of terrorism
from abroad. We don't want the bad guys to know how we obtained
the intelligence.
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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. We have
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 03:06 PM by Vyan
National Security Trials all the time. We've managed to try CIA traitor Aldridge Ames and former FBI Agent Robert Hannsen without these problems.

We don't want the bad guys to know how we obtained
the intelligence.


There's an easy way around that - grant them an Interim Clearance and have them sign a National Security Non-Disclosure Agreement. This means that if they divulge any of the classified information that was discussed at trial - and for some reason they have to WIN THE CASE and have anyone besides a lawyer to talk to - they go to prison for life (just like Ames and Hannsen).

If they lose the case they go to prison. If they win the case and illegal share the info - they go to prison. If they win and keep their mouth shut - they stay free. It's a win-win all around.

But seriously, what it is that the Bush Administration is keeping secret is the fact that they obtained the information ILLEGALLY and may be subject to War Crimes Prosecution for it. That is exactly why Alberto Gonzales orginally recommended the Geneva exception that you keep mistakenly citing (The One which was later tossed out via Hamdan v Rumsfeld.)

He wasn't protecting "National Security", he was protecting his (and the President's) own ass.

Vyan
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. P.S. Jose Pedilla is an American citizen and he was tortured,
according to reports.

You asked.

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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Reread my post, I made exception to persons invoved in terror
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. The Constitution does not make that exception. -nt
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. The constitution does not have all the laws specified!
The laws made by congress and signed by the president are like 10,000 times
the size of the constitution. For example nowhere in the constitution it says we have to
make quarterly payments to IRS. But it is covered in IRS code made by our lawmakers.
So we all have to abide. The executive can also make regulations by decree.

The constitution is only a guideline or framework in which the congress can make laws
in detail.
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Why are you here?
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I represent the Clinton faction of the democratic party
To inject some practical reality to counter the Kucinich faction.
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. This discussion has nothing to do with Presidential candidates
It's about human rights, and ethics. But thanks for being so candid on Senator Clinton's behalf. Now everyone who reads this is informed of her torture platform. HAND, over and out.
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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. The Clintons
both of them, have come out TOTALLY against the use of Torture. There was a point where Bill - in theory - supported the "smoking gun" scenario in the same way you might support a police officer or soldier who took an extreme action to save others who were clearly in harms way. Even then he still felt that the soldier or officer in question should face charges for his action, but that it should NEVER be a part of our official policy.

Why are you here again?

Vyan
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. The Clintons have also said...
Edited on Thu Nov-08-07 06:38 PM by dugggy
that nothing is off the table when it comes to protecting
the lives of Americans.

To answer your question why I am here, it is to place a small
balance to the extreme view expressed here by some that torture
is being done willy nilly and at random. My whole point is that
unless one has a direct connection to terrorist activity, no one
has been tortured. When evidence surfaces that citizens
not connected with terrorism in any way have been tortured, then
and only then it is time to fight against any administration which
would permit such action. If such dastardly deed happens, then our
civil liberties are indeed in jeopardy.
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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. The Clinton have said that Torture...
Edited on Thu Nov-08-07 10:19 PM by Vyan
is off the table, and nothing like what you suggest.

My whole point is that
unless one has a direct connection to terrorist activity, no one
has been tortured.


Really, How about Abner Louima who was brutalized by NYPD Officers anally with a broomstick? He wasn't a terrorist.

When evidence surfaces that citizens
not connected with terrorism in any way have been tortured, then
and only then it is time to fight against any administration which
would permit such action. If such dastardly deed happens, then our
civil liberties are indeed in jeopardy.


That has already happened.

It happened to Abu Omar, an innocent man who was wrongfully kidnapped by members of the CIA in Italy and tortured in Egypt. The Italian police have issued warrants for the arrest of the men who took him.

It also happen to Maher Arar a Canadian national who was mistakenly included on the a No Fly list and assumed to be a terrorist, then arrested and detained at JFK and deported to Syria where he was tortured. NO ONE CLAIMS THIS MAN WAS A TERRORIST - yet he was tortured.

Even Dana Rohrabacher has admitted this is true.

Vyan
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Don't know the details of those cases
If honest mistakes are made by the authorities, that is not a reason
to question the whole policy. If the authorities were negligent in
determining the guilt/innocence of the individual prior to subjecting
him to torture, then by all means they should pay the price.
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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. I gave you links
read them.

The entire problem with the policy is that "honest mistakes" will always happen and innocent people will always get caught up in the process. Oh, and btw that policy is still illegal and unconstitutional - each and every time.

If the authorities were negligent in
determining the guilt/innocence of the individual prior to subjecting
him to torture, then by all means they should pay the price.


The problem which you seem to be ignoring is that they never determine guilt or innocence before hand. That's what a TRIAL does. The entire reason to resort to torture in the first place is that you supposedly have exigent circumstances, the clock is ticking, the fuse is set, the bomb is placed and you don't have time for niceties like Miranda or asking "Mother May I" from a Judge - you have to have the answer NOW!

No one whose been tortured, even those under your supposed "exception", where ever proven guilty before hand in any court what-so-ever. We're not talking about convicts here - we're talking about the accused

"Tortured Until Proven Innocent" is not a policy - it's a War Crime.

Vyan
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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Not every law is Constitutional
Edited on Thu Nov-08-07 05:15 AM by Vyan
And in this case the idea that so-called Enemy Combatants are NOT covered by either the U.S. Constitution or the Geneva Conventions has already been thorougly debunked by the Supreme Court under Hamdan v Rumsfleld

In that case the Majority determined that...

Hamdan is entitled to the full protections of the Third Geneva Convention until adjudged,in compliance with that treaty, not to be a prisoner of war; and that,whether or not Hamdan is properly classified as a prisoner of war,the military commission convened to try him was established in violation of both the UCMJ and Common Article 3 of the Third Geneva Convention because it had the power to convict based on evidence the accused would never see or hear.


Further Article 5 of the Geneva Conventions states:

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.


The default position is that alleged "combatants" - all of them - are covered by the convention until a tribunal is established to determine if they are either prisoners of war or non-combatants. The Uniform Code of Military Justice and a Courts Martial would apply to POWs and the Criminal Law would apply to all others. PERIOD.

Unfortunately Hamdan rendered the previous tribunal process illegal since it used classified evidence, in response the Military Commission Act was passed but that also allowed for the use of both classified evidence that the defendants could not challenge and illegally coerced confessions both of which violate the UCMJ and Criminal statues and has as a result also ground to a complete halt by the relevent Judge Advocates who refuse to be part of an illegal (kangaroo court) inquiry.

BTW part of the reason we thought there were mobile chemical labs in Iraq is because they coerced this information out of Ibn Sheik al-Libi and }Curveball" - both of whom were tortured and turned out to be liars. Torture helped put us into a unneccesary war, and you still think it's an just a "fine and dandy idea"?

Vyan
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Torture of any human being is never a good idea except
when such action has the effect of saving future terrorist acts
resulting in violent deaths of innocent civilians.
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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Two Points...
a) When exactly what that be?

and

b) The Law hss no such "exception" in it.

Vyan
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
7. It's Plutocracy already but now score one giant leap toward FACSISM


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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
11. David Bowie is a prophet...
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James Delinis Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
24. Since when...
...is it so hard to conderm torturing american citizens without access to a lawyer?
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Good question. Since when...
is it so hard to condemn torturing anyone, period? Boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Welcome to DU, James Delinis! :hi:
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