Bill Clinton didn't say Dems were swift-boating Hillary.

[Karmadillo]

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2007/11/did_bill_accuse.php

Did Bill Accuse Hillary's Dem Opponents Of "Swift-Boating" Her?
November 7, 2007 -- 5:01 PM EST // //
Updated below.

Memo to MSNBC and other media -- have you ever heard of that handy little thing known as a transcript?

You may have heard in recent days that Bill Clinton accused Hillary's Democratic opponents of "swift-boating" her when they criticized her answers to an immigration question during and after the recent Dem debate. This claim has been all over the media of late, in particular, MSNBC, which has repeated this claim ad infinitum.

The other day, for instance, Tucker Carlson wondered whether this showed that "the Clinton campaign was cracking under the pressure." Multiple other MSNBC reporters made similar claims about Bill's alleged "Dems swiftboated my wife" charge. It's become a big issue in the Dem primary right now, with multiple rivals hitting Bill for comparing their criticism of Hillary with the attacks Kerry endured.

But did it actually happen?

<edit>

Okay. This is murky stuff. But a fair reading of this shows that Bill is not saying that Dems "swiftboated" Hillary when they criticized her immigration answer. Instead, he's saying that forcing simplistic "raise your hand" answers to complex questions ultimately makes it easier for Republicans to "swiftboat" Dems later by using them as wedges.

In other words, Bill isn't comparing the current Dem attacks on Hillary with the Republican attacks on Kerry, as her Dem rivals have charged. The swiftboat attacks Bill's alluding to here are the inevitable future attacks from Republicans.

more...

[mmonk]

1. Actual words?

[Karmadillo]

2. The transcript is at the link.

nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

3. Plain meaning.

It's not at all mysterious what he was saying... he communicates fairly well. There's no sense in his comments that he was refering to anyone but the media and republicans.

[mmonk]

18. Plain meaning maybe in one sense

but one could argue Hillary was not clear in the debates while on the other hand one could not argue truthfully in support of the swiftboat attacks or claims on Kerry. So how will they swiftboat Hillary or the rest of the dems concerning the drivers license issue?

[jenmito]

21. Here are the words:

"We listened to people make snide comments about whether Vice President Gore was too stiff," Clinton said. "And when they made dishonest claims about the things that he said that he'd done in his life. When that scandalous swift boat ad was run against Senator Kerry. When there was an ad that defeated Max Cleland in Georgia, a man that left half his body in Vietnam."

"Why am I saying this? Because, I had the feeling that at the end of that last debate we were about to get into cutesy land again," Clinton said. "Ya'll raise your hand if you're for illegal immigrants getting a driver's license. So, we then let the Republicans go ahead saying all the Democrats are against the rule of law.

I think it's fine to discuss immigration. We should. I believe immigration needs to be discussed. And it's fine for Hillary and all the other Democrats to discuss Governor Spitzer's plan. But not in 30 seconds, yes, no, raise your hand. This is a complicated issue. This is a complicated issue.

So do I hope you vote for my wife? You bet I do. It'd be good for America, and good for the world. But, more than that I came here to tell you today, don't you dare let them take this election away from you. This belongs to you.

Don't be diverted, don't be divided. Thank you ... "
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2007/11/text_of_bill_clintons_comments.php

By the parts in bold print, when he said those things he wasn't talking about you "Democrats." He most certainly meant from HILLARY since she's the one who bobbed and weaved and changed her answer and SHE'S the front-runner.

[mmonk]

22. Why would he say all? His wife was the only one having difficulty

with the question. The others for the most part were against it.

[MethuenProgressive]

31. Yep, his actual words prove this is another fake story

How many fake stories make a swift boat float?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

4. You are spoiling a perfectly good fantasy

[Joe the Revelator]

5. Did this actually need a seperate thread?

When there is a new one on the same subject?

[Karmadillo]

7. To what thread are you referring?

nt

[Joe the Revelator]

8. Another Hillary supporter made this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3695032

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

9. Most of us prefer TPM to Fox News, so this thread is welcome

[Joe the Revelator]

11. All I'm saying is that it could have been in the same topic

What was so different about this topic? No big deal.

[Karmadillo]

16. Seems different enough to deserve its own thread. Thanks for the advice, though.

nt

[goodgd_yall]

6. Bill Clinton made a nice cautionary comparison

The media are deliberately trying to make his speech juicier than it was by implying he was saying the debate antics were equivalent to swift-boating. The effect is that the viewers get angry at HRC. Of course, this is what the media wants.

[2rth2pwr]

29. I thought they were pushing her so she would

lose easily to the pugs.

oh, wait
or was it because they agree with her positions and want her to win?

Damn, I get all confused with these media conspiracy themes.

[illinoisprogressive]

10. If he did not say that, Karm, then why did Hillary put out a statement refuting it.

[cuke]

12. Because, she didn't

[Karmadillo]

13. Could you link to the statement? Thanks.

nt

[KittyWampus]

14. This is nothing but Clinton trying to "clarify" his previous remark. And Josh is trying to help.

trying to get in good with Hillary, Josh? Just like Aravosis and Kos?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

15. What was his previous remark?

[KittyWampus]

19. What Josh and the OP refers to are NEW remarks Clinton has made about his previous remarks.

Where or where are those threads from the other day?

Sorry I too tired tonight to go fishing-

his original quotes around though

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

20. It's the transcript of the same talk the AP story mis-characterized

"The point I'm here to make to you is whoever you're for, this is a really big election. We saw what happened the last seven years when we made decisions in elections based on trivial matters. When we listened to people make snide comments about whether Vice President Gore was too stiff.

"And when they made dishonest claims about the things that he said that he'd done in his life. When that scandalous Swift Boat ad was run against Senator Kerry. When there was an ad that defeated Max Cleland in Georgia, a man that left half his body in Vietnam...

Why am I saying this?

"Because, I had the feeling that at the end of that last debate we were about to get into cutesy land again. Ya'll raise your hand if you're for illegal immigrants getting a driver's license. So, we then let the Republicans go ahead saying all the Democrats are against the rule of law.

"I think it's fine to discuss immigration. We should. I believe immigration needs to be discussed. And it's fine for Hillary and all the other Democrats to discuss Governor Spitzer's plan. But not in 30 seconds, yes, no, raise your hand. This is a complicated issue. This is a complicated issue.

"So do I hope you vote for my wife? You bet I do. It'd be good for America, and good for the world. But, more than that I came here to tell you today, don't you dare let them take this election away from you...Don't be diverted, don't be divided."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2007/11/text_of_bill_clintons_comments.php

[jenmito]

17. It's a slick way of saying it, but...

by not letting "trivial matters" take away the election from the "Democrats" he most certainly meant from HILLARY since she's the one who bobbed and weaved and changed her answer.

[Sparkly]

23. Thanks for the clarification.

I hadn't read exactly what he said, and it's sure not what they've said he said!

[ClarkUSA]

24. Bill's meaning was as clear to TPM's Greg Sargent as it was to Dodd, Obama, and Edwards.

""Just to be clear, Bill is indeed faulting the other Dems implicitly here, or at least trying to get voters not
to listen to them. He seems to be implicitly appealing to Dem voters not to listen to Dem rival criticism
of Hillary..."

[cuke]

26. That was clear??

Sargent offers two different interpretations, and you think it was clear he meant there could only be one interpretation

[ClarkUSA]

27. There was a clear subtext to Bill's words. Dodd, Edwards, Obama, the MSM, and Sargeant got it.

Mark Penn should have stuck to push polls, union busting, coup securing, and Blackwater PR
because he's screwing up his gig as Clinton campaign manager.

[cuke]

30. "clear subtext" is an oxymoron

and Sargant gave two interpretations to the subtext, so obviously it isn't clear

[BenDavid]

25. Here are the actual words WJC spoke:

"We listened to people make snide comments about whether Vice President Gore was too stiff," Clinton said. "And when they made dishonest claims about the things that he said that he'd done in his life. When that scandalous swift boat ad was run against Senator Kerry. When there was an ad that defeated Max Cleland in Georgia, a man that left half his body in Vietnam."

"Why am I saying this? Because, I had the feeling that at the end of that last debate we were about to get into cutesy land again," Clinton said. "Ya'll raise your hand if you're for illegal immigrants getting a driver's license. So, we then let the Republicans go ahead saying all the Democrats are against the rule of law."

Do you see to whom it is intended? REPUBLICANS......

here is more from today:Clinton said the hand-raising exercise made a “cartoon” out of a complex issue and created the kind of footage Republicans could use in the general election to create an attack ad against the Democratic nominee — similar to the one Republicans made in the last election that claimed Democrat John Kerry, despite his service in Vietnam, was less patriotic than Republican George Bush, who did not serve in Vietnam.

So Clinton never spoke ill of his wife’s rivals, he said, and the Las Vegas Journal-Review’s account of his speech backs him up. And that means Obama’s comment Tuesday that he was “stunned” at Bill Clinton’s alleged criticism and Sen. Chris Dodd’s comment Tuesday calling Bill Clinton’s alleged criticism “outrageous,” were all based on something Clinton never said.

“I want us to keep our party together,” Clinton said. “I want us to win in November.”


Ben David

[Major Hogwash]

28. "I want back in the White House, it was my crib for 8 years. It's a babe den."

"I even had some astroturf put in on the back side of the White House lawn, just for old time sake."

Hahahaha!