It's fun watching the Clinton campaign fall apart over something so mundane

[Joe the Revelator]

Sometimes you get a quick burn out like the "Dean Scream", and sometimes you get to watch a candidate slowly fizzle out. With Clinton we get to watch the latter happen, all over one poor debate performance. You would think that "The Machine" wouldn't have misread this so badly, and would have responded better instead of playing the "Poor Widdle Me" card and trotting her husband and Wes Clark out to make the biggest overstatement of the season.

It would appear that the Empress wore no clothes. One small tug at a loose thread is causing the entire thing to unravel.

[Colobo]

1. I hope you're right, Wolsh.

[jgraz]

2. Better now than in the general election

It was bound to happen sooner or later. You can't sustain a national campaign without any core values.

[Joe the Revelator]

3. Very True..

This was exactly what a lot of us were worried about. It feels good to be right, and to know there is a chance of getting a real democrat nominated who will have a fighting chance of winning the General.

[JohnnyBoots]

70. I never got the math for the GE, the right hates her and so does half of the Left. That leaves 1/4

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colobo]

5. Wolsh is a respected DUer.

[cuke]

16. Not if you think gay schools are not "special interest schools"

Such idiocy can only be respected by...well, you connect the dots

[Joe the Revelator]

23. Red Herring

Not surprised though.

[goodgd_yall]

35. His opinion isn't much to respect

It's rather foolish.

[Joe the Revelator]

38. If you're going to attack, add some substance

tell me where I'm going wrong, show me where Hillary has proven that she can fight out of this.

[goodgd_yall]

48. See thread #46. n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

6. Because not supporting Hillary, means I'm a member of the right wing....

thats laughable and another reason why Hillary is going to be a primary footnote. You can't alienate everyone who disagrees with you in the primary.

[kysrsoze]

56. Isn't it funny how not supporting HRC is like questioning the White House? This makes you...

A fascist? Hee hee! So when you criticize the most RW "Democratic" candidate, you're now accused of being RW. We are now in Opposite-World.

[Joe the Revelator]

57. Hillary and Bush have a lot in common when it comes to dealing with dissent.

It's really kind of scary.

[girl gone mad]

60. Not to mention..

for the past year, her campaign has been using an 'inevitability' tactic straight out of the Nazi play book.

[ClarkUSA]

27. For all those concerned: accusing someone of being a FReeper is against DU rules.

"Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican,
FReeper, or troll, or do not otherwise imply they are not welcome on Democratic Underground."

[RaleighNCDUer]

59. Now there's a constructive comment. nt

[trumad]

7. what will be funner is when she wins the dem nomination

is seeing you go bye bye.

[Joe the Revelator]

10. What does this even mean?

I'm going to be banned by the new Hillary regime?

I'm going to turn tail and run?

I don't think either are very likely scenarios here.

[trumad]

11. You're going to be banned if you diss the dem nominee...

[Joe the Revelator]

14. More threats from Team Hillary

You guys really need to focus on fixing what is wrong with you candidate instead of me.

Furthermore, I am on the record a number of times saying that in the unlikely event that Hillary DOES get the nomination, she will have my full, if not unenthusiastic support, due to her support of Stem Cell research.

Of course, that doesn't matter to you, its much more important to make petty threats and to alienate those who don't agree with your candidate.

[laugle]

94. Last I checked HRC was still at

44% nationally. And last night on AAR, they said the last debate had no effect on her poll numbers.

The media pumped-up the story for days, but it's just a blimp on the radar screen........

I'm glad you will vote for whomever the nominee is, and I still think it will be Hillary!

Hill and Bill (the DYNAMIC DUO), because we need two president's to clean-up the Bush mess!!

[IndianaGreen]

32. Did we miss the Democratic Convention?

Or is this another coronation that will lead us to yet another defeat in November?

[jgraz]

20. Always nice to hear from the authoritarian wing of the authoritarian party

Are you sure you wouldn't be happier supporting Giuliani? Or Pinochet?

[Bonobo]

68. Truman likes Hillary. Awwww!

[ElizabethDC]

8. Well, I don't think they've fallen apart quite yet

I think it was perhaps a little stumble, but I'd wager a gues that she'll be able to recover. It seems to me that folks here at DU are always prematurely announcing her demise over one thing or another.

[Joe the Revelator]

9. So far she has not shown the ability to recover...

She keeps digging herself deeper and deeper into the hole she's made. What I'm really surprised about, and what motivated this thread, is her shocking inability to recover from this.

Its like if the Patriots lose a game this season. Chances are if they lose one the losses will multiply because they will have been exposed.

[trumad]

12. dream on....

[Joe the Revelator]

19. Ok Trumad, I'll play along..

What has she done to effectively put this story to bed?

[aquart]

39. What story?

You seem to think people are watching those debates.

[Joe the Revelator]

40. In the states where it matters they're watching....

...the polls are proving that. And even if no one saw the debates live, if they're likely to vote, they're likely to have seen some of the debate coverage.

[ElizabethDC]

18. By what standards are you guaging "recovery" or lack thereof?

she's fallen slightly in a couple of polls, but she's remained the same in others. We need to wait and see how this plays out, especially during and after the next debate.

But, like I said, I've seen claims before here on DU that her campaign was falling apart and that it was all over for her and yet . . . she's still very much in the race (and still the frontrunner).

[Joe the Revelator]

21. The fact that there is still a story line running about this debate...

..proves that she's not recovering from it.

Politics 101, if you stumble, change the topic as quickly as possible by gettin back on message, and not letting this debate define her. Instead she's gone as far as trotting out her biggest gun, who in turn made another gaffe to give the story legs and make her seem like more of a whiner.

[ElizabethDC]

26. Well, we shall see.

All I know is that reports of her demise are very premature at this point - if this were the week before Iowa, I'd say she should be very concerned about her chances, but there are still two months left until then, so ya never know what can happen.

[hedgehog]

63. But she still hasn't managed a clear answer. All she has to say is

"It's the best answer to a bad situation. Now, here's what I want to do about immigration...."

[AtomicKitten]

13. The dissemination of information is fascinating.

On this page in GD-P, there are OPs swearing Bill Clinton never compared the SB Liars with treatment HRC is allegedly getting by the other Dem candidates, and there is also another OP about Wes Clark (declared HRC surrogate) coming out punctuating the very swiftboating theory that their camp exerted great effort to claim was not made in the first place.

on edit: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3695048

[Joe the Revelator]

17. It is the problem with their response to this..

they can't get on the same page, and while they're floundering, people are seeing Hillary for what she is. She should have done everything she could to make this a one new cycle story, but instead she took a page from the Kerry playbook and kept the damn thing going. Like I said, it's amazing to watch.

[IndianaGreen]

15. Hillary is incapable of admitting she made a mistake, so she continues to dig the hole deeper

Hillary Clinton's lead in New Hampshire is now only 10 points in Rasmussen's robo-poll--down from 23 points in mid-September. Ten points isn't nothing two months before a New Hampshire primary, but it's pretty close to nothing. Especially if it's ten-points-and-falling. ... P.S.: Hillary has now used two of what she must have considered the most powerful weapons in her arsenal--1) the gender victim/Rick Lazio card, and 2) her husband--and they both backfired. Doesn't that make them hard to use again? ... Hillary shouldn't panic. But judging from her performance so far, she will. ...

<snip>

Hitting A Vain: A full week after the Democratic debate, Hillary Clinton is still flailing on the licenses-for-illegals issue--justifying her position on unconvincing federalist grounds, letting her husband mount an equally specious it's-all-too-complicated defense. Maybe she can keep it going until Iowa Caucus Day! ... Yuval Levin is astounded by this performance. Wouldn't it be better for her just to take the hit for supporting Spitzer's plan and move on? The most troubling aspect of this incident, for Democrats, isn't that Hillary can't finesse an issue as well as her husband--we knew that. It's the possibility that a) she panics in adversity--a point Levin emphasizes or b) she's too vain to let herself be perceived as having given a wrong answer, so she goes back to correct it even when that only compounds the damage. ..

http://www.slate.com/id/2177540/#flailing

[calteacherguy]

22. That's a good analogy. The question is will it unravel fast enough before Iowa.

My hunch at this point is yes.

[Joe the Revelator]

24. After looking at today's polls..

...espessially at the second choice candidate choices, if the election was held today, Hillary would be lucky to come in third. If she doesn't do something to get back on message, its only going to get worse. Everything she says now will be framed by this last debate, because of her response to it. She has zero margin of error left, which is absurd, because the debate should have been such a non-story.

[mitchtv]

25. it's fun watching Obama supporters

try to turn things around... with venom
Not on Team Hill, just a Democrat

[Joe the Revelator]

28. I'm not on Team Obama

Although I would take him over Hillary at the end of the day. However, we're supported by facts in this case.

[mitchtv]

30. tweedle de, Tweedle dumb

Hill's numbers are static , Obama would give us nuclear power plants

[Joe the Revelator]

33. I'm just an unfrozen caveman lawyer....your ways confuse me...

..and I have no idea why we are talking about power plants.

[mitchtv]

36. an errant shotgun blast

The jury will disregard...

[illinoisprogressive]

29. If the Hillary campaign would have left it all alone it would have been over in one day

[Joe the Revelator]

31. This is exactly my point, everything we hated about Kerry's response team...

is just as bad on the Hillary campaign.

[karynnj]

72. Kerry ran an excellent prmary campaign

I don't recall anything like this in his primary run.

The campaign that gets, and deserves< criticism was the general election campaign when they expanded to bring in people who had supported other candidates and many ex-Clinton people. The corrections made in September were when Kerry returned to listening to people like his wife, brother and other long time Kerry people - and gave the NYU speech on Iraq and the University Of Pennsylvania speech on terrorism.

[goodgd_yall]

34. Egg on your face come primary time?

You seem to be assuming a lot. I don't see HRC's campaign fizzling out. It's called a "bump in the road." Nothing that Hillary will not overcome.

[Joe the Revelator]

37. Hillary's most electable trait was her aire of inevatibility...

Now that thats gone, she's going to actually have to work a bit for the nomination. So far, all she has shown is an inability to spin out of this. At this point the narrative has been written, and she has let it begin to define her campaign. Unless she does something drastic in the next week or so, I'd start putting the smart money on another candidate.

What we're seeing is fascinating, but it's politics, and its not entirely hard to read if you know what you're looking for.

[aquart]

42. She's my senator. She works.

And only a desperately deluded fool would imagine Hillary Clinton has NOT worked to be where she is.

[Joe the Revelator]

45. It would appear my post went right over your head.

Sorry.

[ecstatic]

41. Wolsh, will it still be funny when it's done to another Dem. candidate?

First they came for... then they came for...

Think about it. You have to fight MSM lies ALL THE TIME, not just when it's your guy under fire.

[Joe the Revelator]

43. I would hope that another Dem candidate does better at managing their message...

you seem to think this is a completely fabricated story. It's not. Read the thread, it's her response that's suspect. Good candidates play the media, bad candidates let the media play them. Don't always look for boogiemen in the closet.

[ecstatic]

47. unfortunately, her team did screw up if they've even bothered addressing the lies

Then again, Kerry did nothing and look where it got him. I guess you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Joe the Revelator]

49. Actually if I remember correctly, once Kerry decided to respond....

His team did the same thing, kept a dead story running long after it's expiration date, letting his campaign become defined by it.

[karynnj]

74. Not true - and shows the media framed lose/lose nature of what Kerry faced

First, he never ignored it - the media was given everything they needed in a timely fashion to reject it. They had Kerry's naval record, the Nixon tapes (he had Kerry checked out 2 years after the fact), the Brinkley book and the men actually on Kerry's boat. That dignified, mature response of responding with the facts is normally sufficient.

Kerry also had many suggogates out defusing it, while he continued to try to get out his message - that was the conventional wisdom for the best approach. He then hit the SBVT himself once and only once, at the Firefighter's convention.

The point is that the media would have said it was his fault if he made a big response - for giving it attention. If he didn't, it was his fault for not responding. Let's be honest, it was the MEDIA's fault for not dropping it WITH PREJUDICE when Kerry quickly gave them the proof and the connectionto the Bush funders.

It is rather ironic that some who blame Kerry rather than the SBVT and their media enablers are crying over poor HRC being attacked for answers that any one can see from the debate.

[aquart]

44. Exactly. Embracing slander because it suits you, not good.

[jmp]

52. Slander?

Boy the hyperbole is flying tonight.

[goodgd_yall]

46. Your basic assumption is unsound.

Where is the "entire thing" unravelling? Hillary is still ahead in the polls.
She did not play "poor widdle me." Her husband did not say she was being swift boated. You can read another thread on the actual context of what Bill Clinton said.

And as far as my having to show you how your OP is not foolish, where is your attempt to back up your subjective take on the whole matter?

[Joe the Revelator]

50. Negative movement is not a positive thing...

Nothing, save a tied up kid in the truck of her car, would cause her to relinquish the lead in one polling period, it was just to big. But to have her number fall as steeply as they did ( and back into striking distance) is proof enough that her campaign is in serious trouble.

Yes she did try to play on what she assumed would be people's sympathies for a woman having to answer questions posed by men.

Yes she did trot out her husband in an attempt to stop the bleeding. Then she trotted out Wes Clark to tie her husband's vague words back to the debate story.

Like I've said, its amazing how badly she's played this.


And I've gone out of my way to respond to every question thrown at me in this thread in a very timely manner. Substance is not something I'm lacking here.

[jmp]

51. I'm much more amused by the random spray of anti-Obama topics ...

... being started in a desperate attempt to find something, anything that will distract DUers from the Clinton implosion.

[Joe the Revelator]

53. Hey at least Hillary's reponse team on DU is barking up the right tree.

Her paid team could learn a few things.

[jmp]

54. I'm of the mind that Clinton doesn't have any passionate supporters ...

... so do the math.

[rufus dog]

55. I commented last week that

she needs to let it go, but they just can't because of their over sized fucking egos! Burn Baby Burn!

[Capn Sunshine]

58. Yeah, but that's not true at DU

the wolfpack will be the last to give up the ghost.

[guruoo]

61. With all due respect, I think you've got her right where she wants you. n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

76. Thats pretty funny...

Why would she WANT to look like she was bumbling the entire thing and lose her massive lead?

[guruoo]

96. What you (and others) see as "bumbling", I see as 'well calculated'. n/t

[Perry Logan]

62. More delusional Schadenfreude from the desperate anti-Hillarites.

[mwb970]

64. Her campaign is "falling apart"?

Excuse me, but that seems deeply silly to me. The media has manufactured a "crisis" for Hillary and you seem to have bought it hook, line, and sinker!

And what actually happened that caused this phony crisis? Hillary refused to give a stark yes-or-no answer, to which she would be held for all time, to a question regarding a very complex issue with many aspects and variables. That's exactly what a president should do.

We already have a "president" who gives quick, simplistic answers and sticks with them forever. Look where that has gotten us!

[Joe the Revelator]

80. Nobody "manufactured" this "crisis" except for Hillary herself...

Read the thread, take off the Team Hillary glasses, and understand that Hillary's response is what kept this story running.

[sampsonblk]

65. Our girl is not falling apart. Trust me.

She has all the same advantages she had last week. She is in great shape.

[shenmue]

66. What the hell are you talking about?

So she's still leading in the polls, but that doesn't matter to you? Americans want to vote for her, but you'd rather stick your nose up in the air. That's how you cranky types are going to hand the White House to another Republican.

And the "Poor Widdle Me" crack is, frankly, insulting. You are the one talking about image. Hypocrite much?

[Joe the Revelator]

77. Keep whistling past the graveyard...nt

[ginchinchili]

67. It's not mundane. It's more like the straw that broke the camel's back.

She lacks character and substance to her campaign. The drivers license issue exposed that flaw that we'd been trying to ignore for too long.What is, is.

[beaconess]

69. Losing points in the polls is not "falling apart"

This is a campaign - people go up and down.

This is one of the problems with the campaign starting so early - and the media playing the "horse race" game. Expectations are set early and any deviation from them is treated as a cataclysmic event.

Everyone should just take a breath.

[William769]

71. You think the Clinton cmpaign is falling apart?

:rofl:

Do so at you own peril.

[bluedog]

73. Hillary has not yet begun to fight!

[Catherine Vincent]

75. Oh please!

This coming from someone that called Dennis Kucinich a kook. :eyes:

[Joe the Revelator]

78. I stand by that....

but I won't derail my own thread.

[Evergreen Emerald]

79. Wolsh: don't you get it? It is not about Clinton. It is about the downfall of democracy

The democrats do not stand a chance against the media. The lemmings are buying the load of crap served up by the media and just agree without looking past the smears. Even on DU, some of us spew the talking points as if they are fact without even looking into the situation. And Obama and Edwards want so badly to be in power, that they are resorting to smears that have no basis in fact--distortions / lies even.

The regurgitation of the lies by the dems and the media is not about democracy--it undermines democracy. We don't even know the source of the crap, but just keep spewing it and nodding in lemming like fashion because its on the news.

Clinton is not falling apart--the media is attempting to take her down. And you who are clapping the loudest will lose in the end. Because it is not about Clinton. It is about democracy.

[Joe the Revelator]

81. This "Blame the Media" kick that Team Hillary is on is almost as pathetic as

"The Politics of Pile On"

Hillary's media response team, and Hillary herself have dropped the ball. I've said that a million times in this thread, that her response it what is so amazing to me. SHE has kept the story alive, instead of letting it die. She's the one that keeps trying different tactics to make the story go away, when shutting up and getting back on message would have been the best course of action. Politics 101. Sadly, both she and Kerry failed that test.

[Evergreen Emerald]

82. how the fuck did she drop the ball? Because she did not answer a complicated

question in sound-bite fashion? It is a bunch of BS that there was a "story." It was nothing more than media smear. And anyone that cannot see past it is fooling themselves.

Politics 101. Hope that the masses are not as stupid as they sound.

[Joe the Revelator]

84. You should really read threads before you respond to them...

because a number of people, myself included have been over this very post. Even the OP touches on it. But I'll say it one more time for your benefit:

Hillary's only viable response to her horrible performance was too keep quiet, let the story die in two days, and get back on her message. Instead she has let this debate define her. She's also made two (so far) miscalculations. The first was the "Politics Of Pile On" that made her sound like a big whiner to a lot of democrats and a lot of independents. The second was to trot her two biggest guns, Wes Clark and Bill Clinton, out to slyly imply that Hillary was being scapegoated. ( I don't buy into this entire context argument, because Wes Clark's comments definitely invalidate that idea)Her media response has been terrible here. Just to reiterate, if she hadn't tried to spin out so blatantly, the story would be old old news and she would not be on the ropes.

[Evergreen Emerald]

86. dear dear condescending Wolsh

you are wrong. She should have allowed the cacophony of criticism from all sides to air unanswered? She would have been ridiculed for being weak.

My point is this: it does not matter what the democrats do--they will be vilified by the media. It is a shame that Obama and Edwards are joining in the swiftboating--and a shame that DU is too.

[Joe the Revelator]

87. You consider it condescending to expect you to read the thread before posting a reply?

She was in a no win situation. If you are a student of politics at all, if you follow it even casually, the most basic rule is "stay on message'. Hillary completely and utterly failed to do this, showing how vulnerable she is. ESPECIALLY as the front runner, before last week, she really didn't need to respond to anything. All she had to do was keep on keeping on, but she played right into Obama/Edward's hands by engaging them, and she is and will pay dearly for it.

[Evergreen Emerald]

88. again--I read your post, I disagree with it.

It does not matter what she does. She will be vilified. Currently the other dems are getting relatively free passes...that will end once the nominee is chosen (after the media redefines them and us lemmings buy the load of crap hook-line-sinker).

[Joe the Revelator]

92. Because its much easier to blame a vast conspiracy..

...then to admit that she did something wrong.


I agree, reality is a scary place.

[Evergreen Emerald]

93. The reason we are in the situation that we are currently in, is becasue of people like you

who stick their heads in the dirt and are unwilling to see the coup for what it is. Just continue to ignore the bigger picture as our constitution and our democracy continues to swirl down the porcelain bowl while despots raid our treasury and destroy our country.

[Joe the Revelator]

95. I think your tin foil hat is affecting your ability to speak logically

nt

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joe the Revelator]

85. A lot of assumptions in your post....

Especially with the never cheat on her husband line. You can't gage that by the side she presents to the public.

[BlueIris]

89. I've been telling people for months that she would eventually crash and burn.

She's built up the proverbial house of cards as a "candidate," and now it's (starting to) fall.

The best is yet to come.

[BootinUp]

90. You've heard the saying, don't count your chickens

before they hatch, right?

[Joe the Revelator]

91. Yeah I was saying the same thing in July