It's official. This primary season is worse than '04.

[ruggerson]

Had a Kerry or Dean or Clark campaign office been threatened with a hostage crisis, the vast, vast majority of us would have come together then, however briefly.

One of the worst domestic legacies of this war is that it has spawned enemies amongst friends and allies, and I think the breach is, sadly, irreparable.

The virulent anger will not permit us to come together this time.

We will give lip service to the idea, but too much bad blood from eight years of neo con Republican rule has soaked into our systems, dividing us and hardening our ability to listen, quietly reason and, in the end, come together for a just cause.

[XemaSab]

1. "Too long a sacrifice makes a stone of the heart."

:(

[JDPriestly]

5. What a beautiful expression of the reality that we are in.

Thank you.

[XemaSab]

7. It's Yeats

and you're welcome. :)

[alittlelark]

2. It is certainly worse.

DU needs to do what it did in '04.... NO Primary discussion in GD.

It NEEDS to happen.

[Bongo Prophet]

3. There are some here working to fix that to the extent that we can

I would say the vast, vast majority DID come together, or at least were not egging on any side, or chose to sit out battles.
the vast majority are probably staying out of MOST battlezone threads because it is damn tedious to see such immature foodfights.
So, this is your feeling, but like a DU poll, it's hard to tell what the real percentages are.
And to be sure, DU is just a small and not 1:1 representative of the electorate, so there is that..

I am sure you know it is not all or nothing. there is no single "breach" to heal, but a lot of individual ones. Many insults have been thrown about, and some of us have warned where that leeads, to no avail.
The longer the gang wars go on, and the further ramped up they get, the harder it will be to heal them.

You are quite right to be concerned about this, but there are many, perhaps even most of us at DU who will "come together" for the candidate, whoever that is.
You can make a difference with your candidates supporters, and lead the way with grace and civility. Start a movement, and not just the "lip service" as you put it, to tone down battles before they heat up and someone says something they might regret later. Like in any relationship, learning when to say "I am not sure" or "Hey, timeout - we may disagree, but we share some goals" you know, stuff you'd advise your own kids to do...

Let us work on that together. :thumbsup:

[JDPriestly]

6. I "came together" until I learned that CNN was dishonest

in presenting its story. CNN, the same network that has been accused of favoring Hillary. I "came together" until Hillary held a private press conference rather than speak to the DNC about what was going on. I smell a bit of a rat. I do not think that Hillary could possibly have sunk so low as to organize or plan this, but I think that, again, she handled this so as to profile herself.

I'm pleased that Edwards gave a great speech to the DNC today. I think Hillary would have had a very hard time following Edwards' speech. Sorry, but in my view, Hillary is the one who is not a team player. She considers herself to be above the crowd. She could have spoken to the DNC and then returned to Rochester. She could have made her statement to the DNC very effectively. In that way, she would have shown solidarity with Democrats everywhere. She would have garnered my sympathy. This is yet another example of her ways of handling things that turn me off to her.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. I'm Glad She Turns You Off

I'd rather be the victim of a car bomb than support the same candidate as you...

Kisses,

Brian

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. ...

...

[cuke]

11. Talk about a "stone of heart"

Not one thought given to the hostages

[JDPriestly]

16. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to add that CNN also

fixed the commentators around Hillary when it chose Gergen and Carville to tell the public sweet nothings about Hillary after the Nevada debate. CNN and Hillary are a pair, it appears. And the handling of this "hostage event" was a great opportunity to them. The domestic crisis that played itself out very publicly at Hillary's headquarters in New Hampshire takes place very frequently in our country. Violence, threats of violence, fear of violence -- domestic violence -- are part of human experience. From what I read, the nature of this man's problem was apparent the moment he entered the headquarters. He apparently talked about his need for mental health care. This event has been blown way out of proportion.

[JAbuchan08]

20. THat's a pretty good sentiment.

Hillary supporters continue the method of divide and conquer.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Yeah

Suggesting she skipped the DNC meeting while her workers were being held hostage because she was afraid of John Edwards is going to bring us together....

[JAbuchan08]

24. Your subsequent post was about 100x more negative than JDPriestly's

Whether I agree with JD or not, your post is quite immature and thin-skinned as well.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Maybe I Am More Familiar With Her Attacks On Senator Clinton Than You Are

Maybe you want me to resurrect her post where she suggests Senator Clinton is not feminine and lacks social etiquette...

As for your questioning my maturity, you confuse lack of maturity with zealous advocacy...

[JAbuchan08]

34. That's what you think of as zealous advocacy?

Let's hope you don't have to live up to it some day. Then again, I don't know you, you might deserve it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. I See You Conveniently Ignore The Provocation

If a person attacks me or someone I like they don't get to calibrate the response...For instance if Mr.X hits me I might hit him or just walk away...I might also send him to the hospital...

[ronnykmarshall]

42. That's a load of shit

Sorry but being told "Hillary and her supporters can go to hell" isn't so warm and fuzzy to me.

[Bongo Prophet]

9. My focus is coming together in the general, and that could mean Edwards

So, at least my part in this thread is about the bigger pic, and not the specific incidents today.
Therefore, your opinions on this are acknowledged. I did not watch CNN's story unfold as closely as you have, and am quite comfortable with admitting I don't know the details.
I have problems with CNN and their methodologies, but that includes most of the corpmedia - so we probably agree on the state of "journalism" today.

Too many people are ready to jump on each other over the slightest thing, and something like the hostage situation should be handled with extra sensitivity.
If there is a stupid OP, it should be allowed to sink quickly and replaced with something better.
Some are jocketing to be the most injured party, and that only adds to the flamebait fiesta.
There are many fascinating but troubling aspects to all of this.
I should be composing music instead of coming here and being a net-nanny.

Good luck to your candidate.
I will certainly vote for him with defiant pride if he is the nom!
:thumbsup:

[Lucinda]

17. There is no way in hell I'd show up to give a speech if people working on my behalf

were in danger.
Regardless what you say, I believe you'd find fault with her no matter what she did.

[JDPriestly]

31. I'm very suspicious of this story because of CNN's involvement in it.

[Evergreen Emerald]

18. I disagree. Can you imagine what she would have been called had she spoke at DNC?

The old lies about her would have been trotted out: "cold/ hard / more concerned about her campaign than her people" had she given a speech instead of gone to them after their lives were threatened by a maniac.

And it hurt her--look at the leg up Edwards received because of his speech. She did not have that opportunity because she was supporting her staff.

"Team player?" She could not have been more of a team player than to go to her team in their time of need.

Clinton and the press: she has been vilified by the press since the 90's. I believe the way she addresses and handles the press is completely appropriate, for a front runner, and for a candidate who has been attacked mercilessly.

I know where you support lies, but please, lets be reasonable in our criticism.

[JDPriestly]

30. I would have liked to see her respond to Edwards speech

or even follow it. I think it would have been tough for her because even though she talks about change, she is not a candidate of change. She is a throw back to the past.

I do not think that Clinton has been attacked any more than any other candidate.

Edwards, for example, attacks the D.C. establishment and therefore the taking of money from corporate lobbyists which is the D.C. modus operandi. Hillary accuses Edwards of personal attacks because he states the truth -- that she takes money from corporate lobbyists. She is taking corporate lobbyists' money. If Hillary feels targeted, it is only because the truth hurts. Pointing out the truth about another candidate's campaign donors is not a personal attack.

I think that taking corporate lobbyists' money is equal to corruption. Hillary and the Hillary supporters have every right to disagree with me and Edwards on this. If Hillary were to criticize candidates who DON'T take corporate lobbyists money, I suppose Edwards could say that was a personal attack. But I would not agree with Edwards if he were to say that.

How you stand on taking corporate lobbyists' donations is a stance, not a personal matter. It is just a campaign strategy for Hillary to claim that it is personal against her. Frankly, I think she is like a kid who gets caught with her hand in the cookie jar and, when caught and scolded asks, "Why are you picking on me? You always pick on me?" She is just changing the subject. She should respond to the truthful statement and explain why she is taking corporate lobbyists' money.

Edwards is correct to raise this issue. That is because unlike most of the Republicans and Hillary, he is not taking corporate lobbyists' money. That is a strong campaign point for him. It may explain why he polls better against Republicans than Hillary. What is the difference between Hillary and a Republican? They both take money from the same corporate lobbyists, but the Republicans promise to lower your taxes. Why would any Republican vote for Hillary?

If Hillary wants to stand with Bush and the Republicans on the issue of taking corporate lobbyists' money, that is her right, but she should just honestly admit she is doing it and, if she really thinks it is right, explain why. It is not very professional of her to accuse the candidates who disagree with her on that issue of personal attacks. If she thinks that the statement that is taking corporate lobbyists' money is a personal attack, i.e., if she is ashamed of doing it, or can't justify it in her own mind, she should stop taking it. Then she would not have a problem with being attacked for taking it.

[Sparkly]

41. A press conference with cameras and microphones is "private?"

Was there a press conference I'm unaware of?

And beyond the question of logic as to why she'd speak to the DNC in this situation, how is that more public?

[PurityOfEssence]

4. I disagree; I think the last one was a touch worse.

Not much, but at least a little.

I was in a much different situation then: I was very active on the boards and was one of a very few Edwards partisans. As such, I took a lot of heat and was always in an extreme minority. The Clark/Edwards rivalry was EXTREME, and the Clark supporters were probably the largest bloc here. He consistently won straw polls and every other idiotic poll like "who's smartest", "who's best looking", "who's most honest", etc. (Those still crop up, but that dynamic seemed much more prevalent then.)

The Dean wars were intense. The Kerry supporters got hammered in much the same way the Clinton ones are now. (There's a lot of revisionist history about that race, too; I contend it was this way: Kerry was the establishment front-runner from late '02 well into '03, with Dean really coming on strong as the Obama of the season and Clark bursting onto the scene in the fall with very aggressive supporters until Kerry's party strength recovered with Iowa, Dean imploded and Clark got locked into a struggle with Edwards as spoilers for each other until they had to drop out.) Many don't remember that Kerry was the early-on heir-apparent and the establishment choice.

It was ugly, and not any nicer than what we're experiencing now. People seem to forget this with time, but drastic measures were taken against members to try to tone things down, and it was quite lively.

[Usrename]

14. Do you mean this touch?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=4476181

:hi:

[cleveramerican]

12. Just when the day seems darkest... here you come pulling down the shade

stop it now, just stop it.

Primary season is always tough.
It always was
It always will be.
Its SUPPOSED to be.

We , as a party ,and as a nation will re-convene at the appropriate moment.
You know I'm right.
I sometimes have days where I feel the same way you do.

[tkmorris]

13. Yeah. It is.

I was absolutely disgusted by 2004 here, it was as if I had watched DU drink whatever potion it was old Dr. Jekyll had, and collectively turned into snarling masses of pure aggression.

Sadly, here we are again, and you are correct. It's actually worse.

Mrs. Clinton is not my choice for the primaries. I can however tell you why without calling you an asshole, calling her a bitch, without using the term "Hillbot", or anything else. I don't need to post silly stories, trying to make them into some awful transgression on her part when in fact they are nothing.

So, what do we do? How can we make it better? I am open to suggestions, and will promise right now to not contribute to the incessant flaming myself.

[Eurobabe]

15. Bush has made America "Dog Eat Dog Police State."

Thanks you fucking asshat :mad:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Don't Lay The Entire Blame On Asshat

Freak Republicans and members of the site that shall not be mentioned, generally, have more respect for one another than many at DU have for one another...

[Adelante]

21. If the length of my Ignore list is any indication

It's worse.

[Life Long Dem]

22. It was real in 04 with Dean.

Now it is fake with Hillary.

[cuke]

25. I didn't know if that could work

Pissing on a thread while posting flamebait, that is

[Life Long Dem]

32. Be real.

For one thing, the post debate with CNN was as fake as any media can get. The media is a propaganda machine for Hillary. What is real is Edwards. You don't have the media falling over each other to pamper him.

[blm]

26. Kerry had cancer surgery in Feb2003 and some attackers used photos taken during

months of followup treatment and compared them with his photos from early 2004 and accused him of botox. The media ran with it mocking Kerry all the way, completely forgetting that he had gone through cancer surgery and months of treatment throughout 2003.

Or they 'forgot' on purpose.

[hayu_lol]

28. You are absolutely right...

another part of the problem this time is that the pre-primary has gone on for at least the past two years. Hard on the voters and even harder on the candidates--whether they be good or bad.

[KoKo]

29. There was alot more "Spirit & Activism" last time. And folks were getting

banned alot they were so vocal. I don't see that now. I just see "armed camps" or folks who steer clear of the camps and try to figure it all out kind of parsing candidates.

In many ways some might think '04 was better because of the rowdyness and fighting and banning. I find this time more painful because there's so much less of it. But that's just my 2cents.

[knight_of_the_star]

33. Please

You weren't here for '04 back when it was in full swing before the first votes were cast. There were conspiracy theories about Clark wanting a VP slot so he could get his Pres. knocked off and get in charge. I seriously doubt the reaction then would have been any different had that happened in '04.

[ruggerson]

36. Actually, I was

n/t

[knight_of_the_star]

44. I checked your profile

April 2004 does not count as having been here for the '04 primary season, not by a long shot.

[JNelson6563]

37. I disagree, in fact just today

I was noticing the very same people making the very same nasty remarks about certain candidate.

For the life of me I cannot imagine sitting in my own poop crying like that for years, literally.

Nope, this DU primary season is equally pathetic, nasty, mean-spirited and small minded as the last.

Julie

[Bonobo]

38. You started a thread titled: "Joe Biden's racist words and Barack Obama's homophobic actions"

So what the fuck do you have to say about anything?

[Renew Deal]

39. I still don't think so.

I think people were well behaved during the hostage thing. There were a couple crappy comments, but they were deleted quickly.

[omega minimo]

40. actually it's 27 "years of neo con Republican rule has soaked into our systems"

:hi:

[Sparkly]

43. Do you mean on DU, or in the media, or camp against camp?

I wasn't on DU last time, until the writing was on the wall for Kerry and General Clark dropped his candidacy. I've heard it was rough.

I think the media is being outrageous, but they were awful last time, too.

The campaigns seemed nastier to each other last time, but maybe I was just more plugged in. Some really awful shenanigans in both Iowa and NH.

The devolution of DU (ooh, I like that)-- The devolution of DU (copyright!) is really astonishing. The baseless, factless, rightwing, emotional and downright irrational posts from some are truly jaw-dropping.