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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:19 AM
Original message
Slate: Obama has the better argument on health care
Edited on Sat Dec-01-07 09:19 AM by BeyondGeography
Obama v. Clinton on "Universality"
The health-care primary, part 6.
By Timothy Noah

==Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are slugging it out over their respective health care plans. It's a fairly pointless argument to begin with, because they both have pretty good proposals on the table. (Click here for my earlier discussion of Obama's plan, and here for my earlier discussion of Hillary's.) Paul Krugman of the New York Times has weighed in on Hillary's side of the dispute, and so, less emphatically, has John Nichols of the Nation. But to the very limited extent that this debate is worth following at all, it's Obama who has the better argument.

...Enrolling people in a private health care plan isn't the hard part; forcing people to pay for a private health care plan is the hard part. Yes, the government has procedures to collect student loans and unpaid taxes, but it's understood that such payments are obligations. There's little disagreement that if you take out a loan, you're obliged to repay it, and only slightly more disagreement (mostly among crackpots) that as a citizen you are obliged to share in the cost of government. I believe there would be a lot of disagreement about whether the government could compel you to buy a private health insurance policy.

...Political salability is the only reason for Democratic candidates to bend themselves into pretzels to maintain a meaningful role for private health insurers in the first place. It wouldn't make much sense to sacrifice that salability by forcing voters to participate in the private health insurance market more than they wish to.

...Advocates of individual mandates are right to worry about nonparticipation. "As a practical matter, letting people opt out if they don't feel like buying insurance would make insurance substantially more expensive for everyone else," Krugman points out. But the most logical solution to this problem, as Krugman himself has written elsewhere, is to make health insurance a function of the government, as it is already for the poor and the elderly. People may object to the specter of "socialized medicine," but at least they grasp that there's nothing unusual about the government collecting insurance premiums in the form of taxes for Medicare and Medicaid.

It may be necessary to achieve the goal of expanding government-administered health insurance in stages. All the health care plans of the major Democratic candidates are premised on that assumption, whether they acknowledge it or not. The only Democratic candidate I'm aware of who dispenses with such gradualism is Dennis Kucinich, whose solution—"Medicare For All"—is the only one that will solve the health care mess in the long run. Clinton, Obama, and Edwards all have plans that would steadily enlarge the role of government health insurance. These are accommodations to political reality. I question the wisdom of including, within such an accommodation, a mandate that would render that accomodation unattractive to a large bloc of voters. If we're going to create a ruckus, better to do it in the service of a more comprehensive solution than either Clinton or Edwards has put forth. If we aren't, Obama's resistence to an individual mandate makes perfect sense.

http://www.slate.com/id/2178896/
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. I agree with that
Except for Kucinich, all of the candidates' health plans are an elephant designed by committee.

Mandates only make the proposed "solutions" unpalatable and unworkable.

I live in Massachusetts. Rather than being a cause for hope, our mandated health plan (Mittcare) is scaring to death the very people it is supposed to be helping.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. 200,000 people are still uninsured in Mass.
And, to quote another poster from another site, "what coverage people can afford, the minimum, comes with so little of health care actually covered that it is barely a step above junk insurance. For health insurance that actually would help someone the costs are quoted at around $4,000-$5,000, which is totally unacceptable."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/11/30/173832/21
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. Wait a minute...
As I understand it, Obama's "national health plan" IS essentially a public plan, with another option for helping people buy private ones.

The "non-participation" part is the sticking point, and either I'm not understanding Obama's proposal, or Noah isn't.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. The lack of mandate enforcement in Clinton's plan is a glaring hole that she refuses to address.
How will she address the "non-participation" via mandate enforcement? That's a question many would like the answer to.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Again ClarkUSA, that's a different question about a different proposal from a different candidate.
I'm trying to understand all of the proposals. My question here is about Noah's article cited in the OP about Obama's proposal.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I've provided you plenty of links to expert analyses in other threads.
Perhaps you need to send an email to Noah? I know he's responded to my queries in the past. Only he can answer your questions from the perspective of his
analysis' conclusions. Then you can post to this thread with his answer? I look forward to that.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Okay.
Although we had a run-in when he posted a hit piece on David Brock...
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. It's worth a try and it's always better to go to the source with a related question.
As I've said, I look forward to his answer.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. What's she afraid of? Why doesn't she just tell us how her mandates are enforced...?
...unless she *doesn't know* how...
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. No, he doesn't.
Neither Clinton nor Obama have "pretty good" proposals.

Kucinich has "the better" health care plan, not only on the table, but introduced into Congress.

It's not just "better," it leaves the rest of the plans looking like a cheap corporate concession to the lowly masses.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. Clintons plan includes a government (single payer) option
I haven't read the whole article, but this snippet doesn't seem to address that.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. That's not what Clinton health care advisor John Gruber says.
Edited on Sat Dec-01-07 10:53 AM by ClarkUSA
"The truth is that neither the Obama plan, nor the Clinton plan, guarantees 'universal coverage' for all Americans, although they both aspire to this goal. Let's look at the Clinton plan first. MIT economics professor Jonathan Gruber, one of Clinton's health care advisers, describes her plan as a 'universal coverage' plan, in contrast to the Obama plan, which he terms a 'universal access' plan. But he also acknowledges that the Clinton plan will not include everybody. 'Any system that does not have a single payer will not have 100 per cent coverage,' he told me, when I reached him after the Las Vegas debate. 'But you can come very close.' ... The system proposed by Clinton is more analagous to the government-subsidized private insurance system in the Netherlands, where roughly one and a half per cent of the population is estimated to fall through the cracks."


http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2007/11/clinton_vs_obama_on_health_car.html
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. one and half percent
So because there are a few idiots the plan is not a good one? I don't understand that logic.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. That's what Gruber says.
And he's the pro-Clinton expert.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. very scary /sarcasm
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thanks for the unbiased source, BG
How refreshing. :thumbsup:
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
7. this issue is hollow
exactly how the individuals have their hypothetical plans structured is meaningless. Whoever gets in will favor national healthcare in some form, and there will be a lot of pushing and shoving and compromise until some combination of all the proposed plans gets implemented. Edwards had a plan first, and Obama and HRC had to come up with something enough different to claim that had a "better" plan. Its all bs. Much like the "I agree with Joe", they both should have said "I agree with John" and put it to rest.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. I'd rather they'd all say "I agree with Dennis"
He started with the first plan and still has the best plan. Edwards, Clinton and Obama all go part way, but they each come up short in some way or another.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
18. Correct analysis!
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. But Krugman (i.e. Hillary's latest, greatest apologist) says blah blah blah...
Noah is right. "Mandating" people enroll in a plan is easy. Enforcing those mandates, and collecting, is the hard part...and Hillary has yet to tell us how that is accomplished.

Making sure everyone has access to adequate healthcare is what's it's all about. Obama's plan does that.
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neutron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Krugman Tore Obama to Shreds
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Nimrod2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
22. Obama's plan is more honest....nt
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. Our local governments compel us to pay property taxes for the fire department
--even though very few people have fires. Why not regard health care as a public good and finance it the way we finance fire departments--through the tax system?
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