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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 04:57 AM
Original message
The neoconservatives have said they'd gladly support a Democrat for president.
I'm fairly sure Edwards will reject their advances, and I am certain DK will.

What makes you think Hillary and Obama won't work with these forces of pure, unmitigated evil?

By the way, that's not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know what makes you think they won't continue their agenda. What do you consider to be evidence that they will not. This is, perhaps, I think the most importan presidential question of all.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. um, you might consider providing some evidence for your claim
Who among the neocons has said this? Why should anyone answer a question that you don't demonstrate is based in fact?
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Why are you so defensive? William Kristol said it. Look it up your ownself. /nt
Edited on Thu Dec-13-07 05:04 AM by readmoreoften
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. not defensive at all. in fact, you are the one acting defensive
bristling all over when being asked a perfectly reasonable thing. You made the claim; you need to provide some evidence. If you can't, you can't.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. It was in an video interview. Good lord knows I've watched a million of them with that character.
If you choose to disbelieve anything without a quote that's fine. I'll assume you think it categorically impossible for Clinton or Obama to interact with neocons. That's fine. I'd just like specific ideas from people who can reassure me that it's not possible.

Cheers.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. lol. hyperbole much? wow. you've seen it a million times.
and sorry you should really not assume you know what I think, but for the record, I see no indication in their histories that either will follow a neoconservative agenda or any directive from that group. Bill Clinton didn't. Both Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama have made it clear that they'd do the very things the neocons rail against: Establish direct diplomacy with Iran and start withdrawing large numbers of troops immediately. Both have spoken out repeatedly against the foreign policy of bushco. Why not do your homework? Unless your agenda is something else entirely.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. I've already seen neo-con lipstick on Hillary's collar
With her gung-ho get Iran talk. I'm nervous about Obama. The way he's been rattling off right wing talking points every now and again.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. but, of course, Obama is the one who wants to play nice with them
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. Democrats and Republicans are really the same!
... again? Gore vs Bush, December 12, 2000, 5-4.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yeah, I didn't say that did I? I want to know if there is anything specific in either
candidate's background that suggests that they wouldn't bend to their interests. Lieberman certainly has. I know that the neocons have attacked Hillary mercilessly (maybe this would be impetus enough, or maybe not). Obama is an unknown to me in this regard.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:09 AM
Response to Original message
5. Right. And I just had a visit from the tooth fairy.
Beware of Trojan Horses offered by neocons bearing gifts. I'm certain there are Dem candidates that will sell their souls to these vile entities.
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ThatPoetGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:12 AM
Response to Original message
6. Why WOULD Obama or Clinton need the neocons?
They don't have a constituency.

They don't have money.

They don't have influence outside the Bush cabal.

Alienating Kristol and his ilk means alienating, what, a thousand voters? A thousand voter who aren't likely to vote (D) anyway.

Even a sleazy, corporate funded Dem has no real reason to pay attention to the neocons. And, despite the spin, none of our candidates are the sleazy corporate whores their detractors like to portray them as.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. They don't have money?
Except Halliburton, Gilead, and the Carlisle Group.

American Enterprise Institute and Cato don't have influence?

So you think it's just Bush and this is a temporary thing? Okay. I hope you're right.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I think it's more that the neo-cons need Obama or Clinton
These fools will stop at nothing to win. If it means winning over one of the Dems that's what they will do.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. That's what I mean. They need whoever's in office.
When I say neoconservative, I don't just mean Kristol and Kagan. I mean the whole cabal: the BFEE, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfie, the Carlisle Group, all the Friedmanites and Straussians, the engineers of neoliberal economics...
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dantyrant Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. This is Washington.
The neocons aren't a phenomenon in and of themselved -- who supports them? Who funds them, gives them jobs, etc... These are nontrivial questions.

Whatever you might think about the neo-cons, I'd suggest that it's a mistake to think that they're just a bunch of nutjobs who happened to find their ways into the government. Yes, the neo-cons are brutal, but this isn't anything new for us either.

Americans seem to live in this world of illusion that America's foreign policy is somehow a question of debate... I see little evidence to support that claim, and what's more, the retired head of the Russian Army, General Ivahsov agrees:

Hillary Clinton, the wife of the former US President Bill Clinton and a 2008 presidential race favorite recently unveiled her international politics agenda in a paper in Foreign Affairs. (Hillary Rodham Clinton. Security and Opportunity for the Twenty-first Century. Foreign Affairs, November/December, 2007). The publication provides a fairly critical account of a number of aspects of G. Bush's presidency.

A wind of change in the US foreign politics? Hardly so. The analysis of the criticism directed at the Republican Administration by H. Clinton and of the plans drawn in her paper shows that no radical changes in Washington's global strategy can be expected in the foreseeable future.

What H. Clinton criticizes G. Bush and his administration for is by no means their tendency towards global dominance or the underlying strategy formulated by the US Congress in 2005 as «gaining an unobstructed access to the world's key regions, strategic communications, and global resources» (in other words, gaining control over all of the above).

The US quest for global hegemony has persisted for over a century. Only methods do evolve. Whereas Rear Admiral A. Mahan, a prominent late XIX-century US geostrategist, emphasized the importance of the sea power, military activity, and the strategy of strangling Eurasian continental powers in the «anaconda coils», US President W. Wilson espoused the idea of a «peaceful» partition of rival countries and their subsequent occupation. US President W. Taft suggested using the US dollar as the instrument of subduing other nations. The common elements of those strategies were both the idea of the US global dominance and the notion that Russia had to be chosen as the prime target of such efforts.

H. Clinton's approaches to international issues are not essentially new. This is no surprise – her foreign politics advisors – M. Albright and S. Talbott – are the authors of the US aggression against Serbs.

Continuity is an indispensable trait of the US foreign politics. B. Clinton's presidency was marked by a powerful NATO and US attack on Yugoslavia. The course taken by his successor G. Bush envisions «a peaceful resolution» of the Balkan crisis. The partition of the former Yugoslavia continues in the form of the separation of first the Montenegro, and, as the next step, Kosovo from Serbia.

If elected, H. Clinton intends to do the same in Iraq. Currently, she is leveling criticism at G. Bush for the US military involvement in the country, but this should not be taken too seriously. Similarly, G. Bush criticized B. Clinton for Yugoslavia while being the presidential contender. This political ping-pong is a game routinely played by the US Republicans and Democrats. No doubt, in case H. Clinton makes it to the White House in 2008, she will bring to the completion the ongoing process of partitioning Iraq into three minor pseudo-independent states. Such is the general logic of the US global strategy implemented regardless of who is the current President.

H. Clinton stresses that leadership is «based on respect more than fear», while also explaining that «there is a time for force and a time for diplomacy». In other words, initially the US interests must be promoted with the help of civilian means (as it was in the case of S. Milosevic), and later comes the time to resort to force (as in the cases of Serbs, Iraqis, etc).

H. Clinton's loud phrases concerning the peace plan for Iraq and the withdrawal of the US troops from the country are immediately offset by the statement that «...we will have to replenish American power by getting out of Iraq, rebuilding our military, and developing a much broader arsenal of tools in the fight against terrorism». The reasoning is the same as that of G. Bush. Consequently, we should expect to see point strikes against Al-Qaeda (a truly universal pretext) and some other terrorist groups, whose names are not hard to invent no matter what country is being dealt with. Consequently, US military bases will remain in the Iraqi Kurdistan even after their withdrawal from the southern and central parts of Iraq. By the way, G. Bush is already creating the infrastructure for deploying the US troops in Kurdistan, perhaps as a gift to give his successor.

One can discern only minor divergences in H. Clinton's and G. Bush's approaches to building up the US military might. link

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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Thanks. Do you have any info on the other candidates in this regard?
Edited on Thu Dec-13-07 05:47 AM by readmoreoften
I'm just trying to learn. I'm not being polemical. I'd like to find information about the candidate's relationships to anyone in touch with a neoconservative think tank, a corporation that hires them, etc. Of course their tentacles stretch much further than what is on the surface. Although I support Edwards and Kucinich, I'm interested in the neoconservative/neoliberal angle on all the candidates. Biden as well. (And of course Obama).

(oh, and thanks!)
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dantyrant Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. I like Biden...
He's smart, he's capable, but he insists on splitting up Iraq. It's a plan he developed with Les Gelb of the Council on Foreign Relations; Biden is a member. In fact, they're all members except Kucinich and Paul -- go figure eh? The CFR was pushing for war with Iraq, even co-developing one of the plans that was drawn up for post-Saddam occupation.

I met with Falah Aljibury, an advisor to Goldman Sachs, the Baker/CFR group and, I discovered, host to the State Department’s invasion planning meetings in February 2001. The Iraqi-born industry man put it this way: “Iraq is not stable, a wild card.” Saddam cuts production, or suddenly boosts it, playing games with the U.N. over the Oil-for-Food Program. The tinpot despot was, almost alone, setting the weekly world price of oil and Big Oil did not care for that. In the CFR’s sober language:

Saddam is a “destabilizing influence… to the flow of oil
to international markets from the Middle East.”

With Saddam out of control, jerking markets up and down, the price of controlling the price was getting just too high. Saddam drove the oil boys bonkers. For example, Saddam’s games pushed the State Department, disastrously, to launch, in April 2002, a coup d’etat in Venezuela.

This could not stand. Saddam delighted in playing cat-and-mouse with the USA and our oil majors. Unfortunately for him, he wasn’t playing with mice, but a much bigger and unforgiving breed of rodents.

Saddam was asking for it. It was time for a “military assessment.” The CFR concluded:

Saddam Hussein has demonstrated a willingness to
threaten to use the oil weapon to manipulate oil mar-
kets… United States should conduct an immediate pol-
icy review toward Iraq, including military, energy,
economic, and political/diplomatic assessments.

The true motive to invade Iraq, Saddam’s “manipulation of oil markets,” was there, but not yet, in April 2001, the official excuse.

Not surprisingly, the desires of the “Project for a New American Century,” the neo-con field of dreams, of remaking Arabia, was not in the Baker Institute-CFR plan. However, the conclusion, Saddam must go, matched the neo-con’s policy demand, if for highly different reasons. The Baker-CFR panel had a limited concern: Get rid of the jerk, the guy yanking the market. Greg Palast


Here's another Russian translated piece:

Recently, a recognizable tendency re-emerged within a part of the Russian political establishment: the US Democrats paving their way to power with the corpses of the US soldiers killed in Iraq are viewed with the same kind of hope as B. Clinton - «our friend Bill» - was viewed by Russian liberals with rather murky credentials in the 1990ies. Seeking exposure, folks from the political and business circles frequent Washington.

They seem to be full of good intentions as they try to make contact with the «reasonable» people likely to be in the future Democratic Administration. However, the problem is that, if you look at things closely, the concentration of the «reasonable» among the Dems is not higher than in the ranks of the Republicans. And even those who can be found are a lot more hawkish than Bush, Cheney, and Co.

This is particularly clear when it comes to world affairs. While disapproving of G. Bush's military escapade in Iraq, they are eager to make even more trouble. A notable example of the kind is the charismatic Barack Obama’s idea of shifting the priorities of the war on terrorism from Afghanistan to Pakistan and bombing entire regions of the country (which has been a nuclear power since 1998).

In the meantime, Senator Hillary Clinton suddenly got preoccupied with the Kosovo problem. She suggests finalizing the job started by her rather promiscuous husband in 1999, when, acting without a UN mandate, NATO attacked Yugoslavia and practically deprived Belgrade of any control over Kosovo. Now, H. Clinton proposes to perpetuate the result of the aggression and to recognize the independence of Kosovo: “In the event of Priština declaring independence, I will firmly urge the U.S. to recognize that country and I call on the EU to do likewise“. Commenting on the negotiations on the issue within the US-EU-Russia Troika, she said: “Bearing in mind that Russia is threatening to use its veto for any proposal brought before the Security Council, we must be ready to resolutely support the will of the vast majority of Kosovo people“.

It is no secret that the current US Administration also supports Kosovo's bid for independence. Nevertheless, neither Secretary of State C. Rice nor US President G. Bush (even during his visit to Albania) ever expressed the view that the unilaterally declared independence must be recognized with such «readiness». Link


Jon Edwards co-authored a report to the CFR called 'Russia's Wrong Direction'(PDF). From Mike Whitney:

John Edwards and Jack Kemp were appointed to lead a CFR task force which concocted the pretext for an all-out assault on the Putin. This is where the idea that Putin is "rolling back democracy" began. In their article "Russia's Wrong Direction", Edwards and Kemp state that a "strategic partnership" with Russia is no longer possible. They claim that the government has become increasingly authoritarian and that the society is growing less "open and pluralistic".

Kemp and Edwards provided the ideological foundation upon which the entire public relations campaign against Putin has been built. And it is quite an impressive campaign. A Google News search shows roughly 1,400 articles from the various news services on Putin. Virtually all of them contain exactly the same rhetoric, the same buzzwords, the same spurious claims, the same slanders. It is impossible to find even one article out of 1,400 that diverges the slightest bit from the talking points which originated at the Council on foreign Relations.

It's interesting to see to what extent the media has become a propaganda bullhorn for the national security state. Putin's personal approval ratings confirm his enormous popularity, and yet, the media continues to treat him like he's a tyrant. It is utterly incongruous.

In most articles, Putin is disparaged as "anti democratic"; a charge that is never leveled at the Saudi Royal family even though women are forbidden to drive, they must be fully-covered at all times, and can be stoned to death if they are found to be unfaithful. Also, in Saudi Arabia, beheading is still the punishment of choice for capital crimes.

When Saudi King Abdullah visits the US, he is not heaped with scorn for his regimes' repressive treatment of his people. Instead he's rewarded with flattering photos of he and George Bush strolling arm-n-arm through the Crawford sage.

Why is Putin blasted for "rolling back democracy" when American client, Mikhail Saakashvili, arbitrarily declares martial law and deploys his truncheon-wielding Robo-cops to beat protesters senseless before dragging them off to the Georgia gulag? The pictures of Saakashvili's bloody crackdown appeared in the foreign press, but not in the US. Rather, the media had all its cameras focused on Garry Kasparov (contributing editor to the Wall Street Journal and right-wing loony) as he was led off to the Moscow hoosegow in handcuffs for protesting without a permit.

Putin's real crime is that he serves Russia's national interests rather than the interests of global Capital.


Didn't think you were being polemical - I just felt the point isn't articulated often enough that the neo-cons are just an extreme manifestation of a deeper infestation that cuts across the party lines.

So yeah... I like Kucinich lol

Happy reading ! :)
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. "his successor G. Bush envisions «a peaceful resolution» of the Balkan crisis"
Pure Bullshit. Clinton had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the Balkans, and only after the Serbian paramilitaries had stepped up their peaceful ethnic cleansing. Stand back and watch genocide? Clinton waited far too long.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
19. And if you can't believe what a neocon says, what CAN you believe?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. but beyond that this lame OP
doesn't provide a single example of a neocon saying what the OP claims. It's a dim version of that old canard: "Some people say..."
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
21. Why would DLCer Edwards reject their advances?
The only reason he's NOT DLC any longer is that he holds no office, which is a requirement to be a member.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Oh for pity's sake,
there's no indication that Edwards would have anything to do with the neocons, just as there's no indication Obama or Clinton would.

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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-13-07 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
23. Does Edwards have a history of rejecting the advances of noecons?
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