Some of you folks are going to be a little embarrassed about these Kerrey remarks

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

"Gore-Obama is a very big ticket, probably unbeatable."
- Former Senator Bob Kerrey

I understand the perception that Bob Kerrey must have been trying to spread misinformation about Obama at the behest of the Clinton campaign.

It is, however, incorrect. Tweety and Tucker and CNN and a lot of folks at DU did not do due diligence before jumping to this particular conclusion. You can say Kerrey is nuts, but he was NOT acting in any way that he perceived as harmful to Obama.

Earlier this year Bob Kerrey was expected to endorse Obama because he LOVES Obama. And Kerrey has harped on this same Muslim business before... back when he was considered a big Obama Booster. His comments are his standard "Why Obama would be a great President by changing the world" bit.

Kerrey's perception of an Obama connection to the Muslim world is something he has had stuck in his head. He really buys into the Obama campaign stuff about Barack presenting a new face of America to the world. While on the 9/11 commission, Kerrey seems to have given some thought to how to heal relations with the Muslim world. He has been a big booster of Obama because he sincerely believes that a President Obama would have a unique ability to heal relations with the Muslim world.

He may be crazy or correct to think so, but that's what he actually believes. And yes, he is vain and weird enough to be proud of describing a secular public school in a Muslim country as a "secular madrass." This is not the first time he's done it.

The fact that he eventually went with Clinton does not mean his is an Obama hater. Bob Kerrey honest-to-God loves Obama. (And I doubt the Obama campaign will complain much about this, because it is certain that Obama knows Kerrey was being sincere.)

Here is Bob Kerrey from the Imus show last May, six months ago:

So I’m listening to Bob Kerrey on the former Imus show, this morning hosted today by Joe Scarborough and once again I can’t help thinking that the Democrats nominated the wrong Kerr(e)y. There’s something appealing about the genuine thoughtfulness of the guy, the lack of pretense that he has all the answers.

“All of us are struggling,” he said. He was speaking specifically about all of us struggling with Iraq. But somehow there was another more resonant dimension to it: “All of us are struggling.” Perhaps because I find myself struggling (with work, beginning a new book is always the hardest part). But I had a sense that in some spiritual way Kerrey had a feeling for human struggle that most politicians just mouth off about.

He was remarkably candid about his own party: “The Democrats,” he said are now just about “bring ‘em home and don’t care” what we leave behind.”

He was no less kind tot he Republicans: “They’re just confused.”

When he talked about getting out of politics, he said he did it because “I wanted to get married and the woman I wanted to get married wanted to have a child “and he wanted to raise a child “out of politics”.

What was interesting was how eloquent he was in support of Barak Obama. “He ought to make a speech and say ‘yes, it’s right my middle name is Hussein, I have Muslims in my family. I can talk to the Muslim world and tell them we can be your friends if you’ll let us, but if not we can be your worst enemy.”

http://pajamasmedia.com/xpress/ronrosenbaum/2007/05/31/bob_kerrey_if_only.php

Recap of Kerrey interview in THE ECONOMIST from May 5, 2007: "Bob Kerrey, Unbound"

Asked to rate the foreign-policy platforms of the various Democratic candidates, he was unflinching.

Joe Biden, he says, is the most serious thinker on Iraq, even though his plan smacks too much of micromanaging. Hillary Clinton, Chris Dodd and Governor Bill Richardson are likewise in the top tier of foreign policy.

Barack Obama lacks experience, but is uniquely equipped, given his Muslim heritage, Christian faith and peripatetic childhood, to face the foreign-policy challenges of the 21st century.

John Edwards has made strides in foreign policy since he last ran for President, though he is still stronger on domestic issues.

Mr. Kerrey, who sat as the highest-ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, also has some specific criticisms of their plans for dealing with Iraq.

He thinks, for example, that Mrs. Clinton’s plan, which maintains funding for American troops but threatens to slash money for the American-trained Iraqi security forces, is misguided.

http://www.nyobserver.com/2007/kerrey-unbound-rates-dems-and-blasts-giuliani

And yes, I have no doubt that if Mark Penn had made exactly these comments it would have been QUITE intentional. And I don't doubt Penn's repition of "cocaine" was intentional... Penn is a professional sleaze. But this is no smear not coming from Bob Kerrey... He's a weirdo, but really thought he was doing good for Barack.

[MadBadger]

1. Your not talking about the madrasa comment are you?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

3. If you know Bob Kerrey you know it isn't sinister.

He's an epic loose cannon and he has a long record of talking about Muslim and Madrassa and all that stuff while boosting Obama.

I can hear it and you can hear it, but he doesn't hear it. He didn't say anything today he hasn't said before, and not one person in the world thought he was up to mischief.

The only difference in his comments today was that his status in people's minds switched to "Clinton endorser"

Something I forgot to mention in the OP... It was just a few days ago that it was being posted here that Billy Shaheen lead chants of Gore supporters shouting "cripple" at Bob Kerrey in 2000. The same Billy Shaheen... So these stories are getting rather conflicting.

[MadBadger]

4. Well when I finally heard the clip of him using madrasa...

I came to the conclusion that he was just uniformed. Not being calcuating, but just being stupid and not knowing the facts.

[TwilightZone]

7. Not knowing what facts, exactly?

You do know that "madrassa" means school in Arabic, right? Any school.

From wikipedia:

Madrasah (Arabic) is the Arabic word for any type of school, secular or religious (of any religion).

Indonesia is an Arabic country. If Obama went to school in Indonesia, he attended a madrassa.

Kerrey clearly indicated that it was a secular one and not a religious one.

So, again, what facts are you disputing?

[AZ Criminal JD]

14. Indonesia is not an "Arabic country".

How embarrassing for such a statement to appear on DU. The prominent religion in Indonesia is Islam which has nothing to do with the Arabic ethnic group. There are probably more Arabs in the Detroit area than in all of Indonesia.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

15. Yes, that is unfortunate. I doubt they speak Arabic in Indonesia

[TwilightZone]

18. They do, actually.

In fact, in Muslim worship services, apparently it's required: http://www.indonesiamatters.com/838/arabic-only/

[TwilightZone]

16. Language, not ethnicity.

The entire point of contention in this discussion is language, not ethnicity.

A lot of Indonesians speak Arabic. In fact, according to the source below, conducting Muslim worship services in Indonesian, rather than Arabic, is illegal.

Madrassah is the arabic word for school, any type of school, therefore, Indonesian schools, secular or religious, are madrassahs. If Obama attended a school in Indonesia, he attended a madrassa, in his case a secular one.

That's the point.

Sources: http://www.indonesiamatters.com/838/arabic-only/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrassa

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

To him, it was the facts. Whether it is a slur or not, he doesn't think it is

He said "secular madrassa" and probably felt he was being very professional in saying it right... not the "bad" kind of madrassa. (It's stupid because I doubt they speak Arabic in Indonesia, but Kerrey is a perennial goof-ball with things like that.)

Note that his remarks on CNN were made in response to a question about the possibility of Muslim smear campaign against Obama. When you watch the clip, which I wish everyone would, it is plain that he didn't think he was saying anything other than that Obama is a great guy.

Bob Kerrey is a famous loose cannon and about half crazy... or at least eccentric. I doubt anyone would entrust him with a subtle linguistic hit job because he's never on message, and -- more to the point-- it is clear from everything we know about him that he would have refused to say anything slanderous about Obama.

(I was surprised he endorsed Hillary because I thought he was in the Obama camp.)

[Cha]

17. Yeah, bob kerrey is

real stupid.

[TwilightZone]

2. It doesn't matter. HE SAID THE TWO "M" WORDS, DAMMIT!!

That's all that matters. He said Muslim and madrassa, so his intentions must have been evil.

There is no other possible explanation.




Note: in case it isn't painfully obvious, this is sarcasm.

[Windy]

5. I read his entire statement. You are trying to spin his blatant attempt

to drop controversial topics to hurt Obama in the primary. There is absolutely no question that this is an orchestrated attack by Clinton and her surrogates, including her husband and those who are looking for some secondary gain through either a position in her cabinet, special favors, etc if she wins the presidency. This is old school establishment politics and its not becoming.

In the long run, this type of dirty politics will blow up in their faces.

[1corona4u]

6. Ok, you said;

"The Obama Muslim connection is something Kerrey has had stuck in his head from the start. He really buys into the Obama campaign stuff about Barack presenting a new face of America to the world. While on the 9/11 commission, Kerrey seems to have given incessant thought to how to heal relations with the Muslim world and has been a big booster of Obama because he sincerely believes that a President Obama would have a unique ability to heal relations with the Muslim world."


I don't understand this for 2 reasons;

1. Obama does not look like a Muslim
2. He's not a Muslim, correct?

Now, the only connection I can see that references Muslim/Arabic, is his middle name. The general population abroad, or here, probably isn't aware of the Muslim/Arabic name either. So how would this heal relations with the Muslim world? Simply because he has a Muslim/Arabic middle name?

I don't see the logic in that.

[TwilightZone]

8. "1. Obama does not look like a Muslim"

How does one "look like a Muslim"? Islam is a religion, not a race.

[1corona4u]

19. Muslims are predominately Arabs...

so he doesn't look like an Arab, if that suits you better.

These are Muslims;

Muslim (Arabic: مسلم) is an adherent of the religion of Islam. The feminine form of 'Muslim' is Muslimah (Arabic: مسلمة). Literally, the word means "one who submits to God)". The word "Muslim" is the participle of the same verb of which "Islam" is the infinitive.<1>

Muslims believe that there is only one God, translated in Arabic as Allah.



I'm sure there are a few thousand other races that could be Muslims, but not that many.

[TwilightZone]

21. Re: "These are Muslims"

So are Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. ;)

[1corona4u]

22. That's why I put the last line in there..

there are Jews, who aren't Jewish too. Sammy Davis Jr. springs to mind;

"Davis's first wife was Loray White, whom he married in 1958 and divorced in the following year. In 1960, Davis caused controversy when he married white Swedish-born actress May Britt he also then converted to Judisum"

"During his lifetime Sammy Davis, Jr. stated that his mother was Puerto Rican and born .... Davis converted to Judaism after reading a history of the Jews"

[TwilightZone]

24. "Jews, who aren't Jewish"

By that, I presume that you mean that there are Jews who don't look like the Jewish stereotype.

Jews would seem to be Jewish by definition.

[1corona4u]

34. Exactly.

I didn't get that across very well..but that's what I meant.

[provis99]

47. no, the vast majority of Muslims are not Arabs

And there are millions of white Europeans who are Muslims, as well as millions of East Asians, and millions in the Indian subcontinent. So you flopped on all your points.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

13. I am not saying it makes any sense at all... I am saying what Kerrey says

In May he was waxing about how great Obama would be for America because he was Indonesian and somehow connected to Islam. He seems to have mentioned "secular madrassa" before.

I am not saying Obama has any connection with Islam.

Kerrey is saying that. I think Kerrey's idea is silly. I think it is silly as a pro-Obama argument, and silly as an anti-Obama argument because I don't think Obama is connected to Islam in any meaningful way.

But Bob Kerrey obviously does, and he thinks it is a great thing! He's daffy. But he was surely not acting with malice or at anyone's direction.

[1corona4u]

20. I know, I understood that, I was agreeing with you...

I think it's illogical. ;-)

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

46. Bob Kerrey is a genuine nut. Do you remember the 9/11 commission appearances where he kept

going off on crazy tangents? He's an interesting guy, but a crank and self-styled gad-fly.

All I could think of was Feynman (sp?) on the space shuttle commission, when he was always getting into public disagreements with the other committeemen.

[Tom Rinaldo]

28. It's not total happenstance that he has that middle name

There is some muslim heritage in his father's blood line. Look, the way to deal with this is not to run screaming from the word "muslim", it's to stand on the truth and work from there. When need be, since it seems to be what he actually belives, Obama can always simply say,; "I was brought up Christian, I am a Christian, I accept Jesus Christ as my savior". What could the wing nuts say to that? Then Obama could talk about the nature and importance of secular society and the world wide need for tolerance.

[Teaser]

9. Your angular acceleration is off the charts!

.

[sniffa]

10. i agree

the people regretting their statements will be the ones defending him. :thumbsup:

[TwilightGardener]

11. Bob Kerrey: I respect his military service, but he's an egomaniacal ass who

is desperate to get back into politics somehow (chickened out of running against Mike Johanns) and figures Hillary is the safest vehicle to get there. Nothing he says is sincere--he's full of himself.

[ruggerson]

12. Kurt, of course you're correct, but the cult

cannot afford to acknowledge the reality of this. It deprives them of a bone.

[Cha]

23. I think you're wrong and you're

the one that's needs a bone.

[ruggerson]

25. attach a filet to it and you got a deal

n/t

[K Gardner]

26. K&H - you're a serious poster and one I listen to, so I have seriously

considered your remarks. You may be right that Bob Kerrey really likes Obama and meant no harm. I can't look into the man's eyes, and therefore can't see his soul :-) And if there had not been such a torrent of this type stuff pouring out from Camp Hillary, I don't know if anyone would have noticed. But is it really coincidence? Evidently, he's been saying some of this stuff for awhile and either hasn't been clued in that Barack isn't Muslim or just isn't bright enough to comprehend the facts. And surely if he knew of the previous dust-ups with the same issues, he wouldn't just go out and repeat them, willy-nilly. Just hard to believe he's that, well, ignorant. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise :-)

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

27. With the facts as presented, this is a very sensible conspiracy

I can see it 100%. It looks very fishy, and I would have generally accepted it except I have heard Kerrey talk about Obama before, and he seemed so impressed with him.

And Bob Kerrey is not a big Clinton pal, so he's not like Billy Shaheen.

I can easily imagine the Clinton camp sleazing on Obama's ancestry, but not in the form of Bob Kerrey!!! It's like Biden's "Clean and articulate" comment... from some people you'd go, that's really snarky. But from someone like Biden... not his style.

If I was an Obama supporter and didn't have years of marveling at the clueless gaffes and almost metaphysical musings of Bob Kerry, I would think just what people think.

And, to anyone asking if this is just a cooincidence... On CNN he was asked specifically about the idea of a smear campaign against Obama, and he answered questions. He didn't raise it, it was forced on him by the host.

His comments this morning were exactly what he has said before. In the Economist interview he talked about how wonderful it is that Obama's middle name is Hussein. The tag for the article mentioned it. And on Imus he talked about how Obama's middle name being Hussein is a great asset. I disagree, but this is about what Kerrey thinks.

So today he says exactly what he has said before when praising Obama and the possibilities he offers, almost word for word, but it's a sudden scandal because he has endorsed Clinton. Same words, different meta-context. When he wasn't speaking for Clinton, nobody questioned the sincerity of the same spiel.

(Ironically, Kerrey got into this because he was taking pains to say that though he had endorsed Clinton he still thinks Obama is a hell of a guy.)

[Tom Rinaldo]

31. I'm not convinced it was an intentional attack either

But I decided I should try looking at it as if it were one, because if language hasn't been used as an overt attack on Obama yet it sure as hell will be, and this was a fluff example all things considered. Here is what I wrote on another thread:

This is tricky stuff but no one ever said running for President was easy. I am not completely convinced that Bob Kerry made his comment with the intention to weaken Obama for Clinton, but let's just suppose that he did for arguments sake. I can see how it creates a mine field for Obama but this is another example of something we can all see coming from three hundred miles away. How loudly can one complain to the general public about unfair campaign tactics when everything being used against you is the literal truth? In this case the literal truth aspect focuses on the actual definition of the word school in arabic.

Here is a quote from a story that covered Obama's debunking of the untrue smear attempt that he attended a radical islamic school as a child in Indonesia:

"Interviews by The Associated Press at the elementary school in Jakarta found that it's a public and secular institution that has been open to students of all faiths since before the White House hopeful attended in the late 1960s."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16813267 /


The following is taken from About.com:

"Glossary: Madrassa or Madrasa"
From Pierre Tristam,
Your Guide to Middle East Issues.

Definition: The word "madrassa" is Arabic for school, and is commonly used throughout the Arab and Islamic world to refer to any place of learning in the same sense that, in the United States, the word "school" refers to a primary school, a high school or a university. It can be a secular school, a vocational school, a religious school or a technical school.

The negative connotation of the word "madrassa" as it's come to be understood in the English-speaking world--as referring to a place where fundamentalist, Islamic instruction is combined with anti-western vocations, or in the extreme, as a place where terrorists are formed ideologically--is largely an American and British conceit. It is for the most part, but not entirely, inaccurate.
http://middleeast.about.com/od/glossary/g/me071202b.htm

So Bob Kerry said that Obama attended a secular Madrasa as a child in Indonesia. Arguably techncially he is correct. Obama has to be able to handle a comment like that thrown at him by anyone; smoothly, graciously, and compellingly, without calling "foul" on anyone. Kerry gave Obama an opening by using the word "secular" which Obama can rightly claim reaffirms that he never attended an institution intended to teach radical Islam to students. And then he can slip into the role of teacher about different world cultures, and in the process remind all listening what we have been missing in a President for the last 8 years.

If I were a talking head trying to defend Obama by saying this was just a smear I could be made to sound like a total fool with just a couple of pointed questions. The first would focus on the definition of the phrase "secular madrassa", but the second would be worse. If I tried to say that I understood all that but knew that the intent of saying that politically was to harm Obama, I would be stopped in my tracks by someone asking me if I agreed or disagreed with the sentiments that Bob Kerry expressed about Obama? Would I characterize the literal content as positive or negative? I would have to say I agreed with the sentiment and the characterization of Obama was literally positive. That after admitting that the phrase "secular madrassa" was technically accurate also.

You can't cry swiftboating when you are being hit with the truth. You need a different more effective way of combatting the negative implications of a potential "true" attack. It's up to Obama now to do just that. It is undeniably true that this will come up if he is our nominee and it would have come up no matter what Bob Kerry said or did not say today.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

33. Kerry phone interview from Sunday:

“What I said was an answer to a question,” Kerrey said. He’d been asked by a reporter from the Omaha World-Herald about the fact that the Clinton folks are hammering home the idea that Obama has little experience, while both Obama today and Kerrey in 1992 ran for president in their first Senate term.

“My answer was yes, but I finished third in the primary. Obama’s smarter and more talented than I ever was, and he has two things which are connected to his life experience that give him special capacity,” Kerrey recalled. “First, he is African American and can speak to underperforming Black youth in a way that no other candidate can. He gave a speech in Selma that was incredible, that no white person could ever give. No government program could ever do what Barack Obama can do.

“Second,” Kerrey continued, “his name is Barack Hussein Obama. I know that middle name is seen as a weakness by Republicans, but I don’t think it is. I think it enables him to speak to a billion Muslims around the world.”

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2007/12/why-did-bob-ker.html

Mark Kleiman thinks this more than plausible.

It’s entirely possible that Kerrey meant what he said about Obama’s name doing America good in its foreign relations. I’m more inclined to believe that because I also think that what Kerrey said was true: a big advantage to electing Barack Hussein Obama to the Presidency is that there are a billion people in the world with relatives named “Hussein,” and they’d be less inclined to be our enemies if our leader had “Hussein” in his name. I don’t think that would be a good issue for Obama to campaign on, but it’s still the case, whatever Kerrey’s motivation for mentioning it.

http://www.samefacts.com/archives/barack_obama_/2007/12/kerrey_and_barack_hussein_obama.php

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

29. Bob Kerry Economist October, 2007:

Same theme, same language. Nobody thought a thing of it, because he hadn't endorsed Clinton:


"I love that his name is Barack Hussein Obama; that he was educated for a while in a secular madrassa. He can speak like no other candidate to a billion Muslims on this earth and say we’re not your enemy unless you make us so."

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2007/10/bob_kerrey_discusses_leadershi.cfm

[venable]

30. I see nothing wrong w/these remarks, and I am strongly anti-HRC

[KoKo]

32. Oh Stuff IT! Bob Kerrey has always been a DINO like Lieberman and anything he says

should be viewed as what spews in spin and snakelike venom to Dems just like what comes out of Lieberman's mouth. Lieberman who just endorsed John McCain. Neither Kerry nor Lieberman should be included in a sentence that has Democrat or Democrats in it.

:puke:

[Zueda]

35. And to think you people wonder how republicans can be so ignorant...

Bob Kerrey does not speak Arabic.

Forest... trees!

[TwilightZone]

40. I don't speak French, but I can say...

"rendezvous".

We all learn foreign words that apply as well or better than English ones, and we use them all of the time.

Deja vu, anyone?

[Tactical Progressive]

36. I think you probably got this right, Kurt

That's really good work!

Bob Kerrey has more than a few screws loose, but at least they're just loose, not missing. What you've uncovered and put together sounds just like Kerrey. He probably has a valid point too. Even a non-Muslim with the name Barack Hussein Obama who is a minority and grew up in a Muslim country, probably has a better chance at reaching out to the Muslim world than most. Bob just doesn't always get his points across very well.

The only thing I'm surprised at is that Kerrey has endorsed Hillary! That I don't get. Kerrey has a deep-seated dislike for Clinton that I've always ascribed to Bill avoiding Vietnam, while Bob went and, well, you know. Maybe there's more to it than that, but I never could figure, and I listened. I guess he hasn't let his dislike for Bill carry over to Hillary, which is admirable.

And it should probably be noted that his dislike for Bill, plus his repeated approbation of Obama, STILL led to his supporting Hillary. That's a fairly substantial endorsement when taken in context.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

37. Kerrey has always been an enemy of the Clinton axis. I was puzzled too.

Kerrey gave Bill Clinton hell all the time, and supported Bradley over Gore. I honestly thought he was going to endorse Obama.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

38. LATE EDIT TO OP: It was "Morning Joe", not Imus.

The guy quoted in the OP was refering to Morning Joe as the Imus' replacement. That makes more sense, because I thought I saw that interview, but when I (mis)read it was Imus it threw me. (I was not an Imus listener, but I do listen to Morning Joe. Mikka is charming.)

[mmonk]

39. I could care less. My comments about him in another thread stand.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

41. CNN Appearance (Video)

http://thepage.time.com/kerrey-discusses-using-obamas-middle-name-on-cnn

[durrrty libby]

43. You got it right but not one of the faux-ragers will admit that

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

42. Kerrey's comments on context (phone interview Sunday):

“What I said was an answer to a question,” Kerrey said. He’d been asked by a reporter from the Omaha World-Herald about the fact that the Clinton folks are hammering home the idea that Obama has little experience, while both Obama today and Kerrey in 1992 ran for president in their first Senate term.

“My answer was yes, but I finished third in the primary. Obama’s smarter and more talented than I ever was, and he has two things which are connected to his life experience that give him special capacity,” Kerrey recalled. “First, he is African American and can speak to underperforming Black youth in a way that no other candidate can. He gave a speech in Selma that was incredible, that no white person could ever give. No government program could ever do what Barack Obama can do.

“Second,” Kerrey continued, “his name is Barack Hussein Obama. I know that middle name is seen as a weakness by Republicans, but I don’t think it is. I think it enables him to speak to a billion Muslims around the world.”

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2007/12/why-did-bob-ker.html

Mark Kleiman thinks this more than plausible.

It’s entirely possible that Kerrey meant what he said about Obama’s name doing America good in its foreign relations. I’m more inclined to believe that because I also think that what Kerrey said was true: a big advantage to electing Barack Hussein Obama to the Presidency is that there are a billion people in the world with relatives named “Hussein,” and they’d be less inclined to be our enemies if our leader had “Hussein” in his name. I don’t think that would be a good issue for Obama to campaign on, but it’s still the case, whatever Kerrey’s motivation for mentioning it.

http://www.samefacts.com/archives/barack_obama_/2007/12/kerrey_and_barack_hussein_obama.php

[geek tragedy]

44. Thank you, Hillary fan, for setting us straight.

When he repeatedly lies and says Obama spent time at a madrassa, he's really trying to HELP him get elected.

Now I see it.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

45. I'm sorry the outrage of the day turned out to be a dud, but there's always tomorrow

If Mark Penn made exactly the same comments in exactly the same context it would be a clear-cut political hit.

But from Bob Kerrey... it's a joke to think it's a campaign stratagem.

They may roll it out as a campaign stratagem tomorrow, for all I know.

But this Kerrey business is not what you want to think it is.