Ok, just off the phone with a friend--Obama/NASA

[1corona4u]

He said that a lot of Floridians will not vote for Obama, because if his 'questionable' space policy. They are worried that there will be too many cut-backs, and that's not good for Florida. Apparently, Hillary has already addressed it, but I will have to do some research. Anyone else heard about this?

[1corona4u]

1. I guess no one cares about the economy in Florida...interesting.

[grantcart]

34. OK I just got off the phone with a guy I know in American Samoa and

. . . . Florida is irrelevent

[1corona4u]

46. We'll see about that.

Think I'll check out some 'other' candidates positions...

[grantcart]

35. double post delete

[thunder rising]

37. HOOOOTTT!!!

[tammywammy]

2. I'm not sure

but I'll add a bump and bookmark just in case I find something.

And my dad works with NASA on the space shuttle and he hasn't said anything.

[1corona4u]

7. There is some on KOS..but kind of vague...

I hope not, Florida really depends on NASA, as do some in Houston, I'm sure.

[tammywammy]

10. Actually, I'd think Houston more than Florida

And also, people all over the country work for NASA.

[parasim]

3. Good question.

I just moved to the Space Coast. I'll have to start asking around here what they think of Obama.

I didn't realize that Obama had a "questionable" space policy. Hmmm...

[1corona4u]

14. Here's an older article about it...

<snip>

Obama's proposal to slip NASA's Constellation program to pay for education puts education and space in direct competition for tax dollars. Space Exploration historically has not competed with education for federal dollars because most educational programs are funded at the state level. The Department of Education and NASA are also traditionally in separate funding bills going through Congress and thus are not competing for the funds within a given appropriation bill.

Given that that Space Shuttle is retiring in 2010 and there is already a four year gap before the Ares I vehicle will be ready to launch crews to Space Station, a five year delay of the Constellation program would leave the United States government without its own human launch capability for nearly ten years.

Such a delay would result is a loss of capability as the workforce with the knowledge to build spacecraft will not be around when you want to hire them in 2020 and there will be few to train any students coming out of the education pipeline.
<snip>
According to a 2004 press release from Congress, there are three times as many scientists and engineers at NASA who are over 60 years old then are under 30 years old. It is unclear either group would be around 13 years from now to restart the program.

Most of the veteran spacecraft builders will be retired by 2020. The youngest person to walk on the moon, Harrison Schmidt, will be 85 and the first man to walk on the moon, Neil Armstrong, will be 90.

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/11/obama-pits-huma.html

[thunder rising]

41. Give $1B to Rutan and he'll put a man on Mars in 5 yrs. NASA has quantity not quality.

[silverweb]

4. It took a little searching.

He's proposed delaying the Mars mission for five years to fund his educational initiatives. _link_

Like the Mars mission and subsequent NASA projects won't need educated young people instead of creationist clones?

[tammywammy]

12. Well, that's soft on Space

:sarcasm:

[silverweb]

17. Yeah, huh?

:D

[1corona4u]

20. But it's not just 5 years that would be affected,

as I just read. It would really mean, we wouldn't have space flights until 2020, from what I read. Not sure if that still is his position though.

[silverweb]

29. I don't know.

I do know that the educational and financial mess BushCorp has left means there will have to be a lot of rearranged priorities.

A successful space program needs scientists. Lots of them. And I don't think we want to be hiring foreigners for the program, do we?

That means we'll need to really revamp our educational system to prepare our own young people in science and technology. And that takes a budget.

So Florida will have to just put its parochial concerns into some kind of perspective for a little while.

[1corona4u]

33. You missed the point;

"According to a 2004 press release from Congress, there are three times as many scientists and engineers at NASA who are over 60 years old then are under 30 years old. It is unclear either group would be around 13 years from now to restart the program."

[thunder rising]

45. Believe me new blood in NASA is a GOOD THING!!!

[silverweb]

51. That's not a point.

That's a silly speculation.

"It is unclear either group would be around 13 years from now to restart the program."

That's only partly true. The older group will be retiring and/or dying off. The younger group will need to be convinced that it's worth sticking around and will need reinforcements.

The entire program will need remodeling, and new scientific and engineering personnel will need to be trained and recruited.

All of it starts with education, so the very existence of NASA itself depends on the success of education reform.

I'd say Obama's priorities are right on target.

[Auntie Bush]

67. In the meantime the Chinese will be way ahead of us.

Now that's scary. :scary:

[silverweb]

69. Indeed.

Another fine mess we get to "thank" BushCorp for and scramble to correct!

[KittyWampus]

5. do you have any actual facts about Obama's "questionable space policy" or just the vague

reference?

What the heck is a strong space policy?

Wasting millions sending men into space when sending robots is cheaper and benefits society to a much larger extent?

[1corona4u]

8. I believe I was clear in my OP.

I am researching it now.

[KittyWampus]

21. great, thanks. maybe it's about funding. Bread and butter issues are getting more important

as the economy heads south.

[Redstone]

6. Oh, Jesus. Your friend would have us believe that a candidate's "space policy" should be

the reason for voting for or against that candidate?

Uh, don't we have just a FEW issues in this country that are more important than "space policy?"

Things are really getting ridiculous out there.

Redstone

[1corona4u]

9. NASA is very important to Florida...

just as 'black issues' were to SC.

[stillcool]

11. That is just nasty.

the 'Black' issue is the Clinton's. Obviously not South Carolina's. You guys are doing a bang-up job for your candidate. How much more disgust do you think people have in them?

[1corona4u]

24. She's not my candidate. See my sig line.

[IndianaGreen]

18. The manned program should be scrapped

We should put our money on robotic missions which carry the biggest scientific value.

The shuttle and the space station are white elephants.

[1corona4u]

25. Tell that to the Floridians who have jobs there...

How does Mr. Obama plan to employ THOSE people who get laid off??

Look, I have a genuine interest in this, and it is important to Florida.

[thunder rising]

31. It's not welfare ... scramble like the rest of us...NASA voted Bush. And those days are gone

Send out your resumes. That's what I've had to live with. WAKE UP, it's a brand new global economy.

Most of NASA is unemployable outside of what trivial shit do. It's a welfare program.

[1corona4u]

38. You're wrong.

Totally. And, I don't work for NASA.

[IndianaGreen]

50. The manned program is sucking up precious dollars that could go to science

This is the consensus of many scientists and space aficionados such as me.

I rather put the money on robotic missions and on climatology. They have the more bang for the bucks.

A manned Mars mission is the height of reckless behaviour considering the primitive propulsion systems that we would need to depend on.

The shuttle should be grounded for good, and the space station has no scientific value.

[tammywammy]

28. Agreed

The Shuttle is a dinosaur. I know they're currently working on the next shuttle, but it's still years off.

[1corona4u]

47. 2020 if Obama wins...

[tammywammy]

52. The way NASA has been going these last few years

We shouldn't be rushing them towards a new vehicle anytime soon.

[thunder rising]

56. NASA has been working on the "New" Shuttle since '86 (how would I know that)

[tammywammy]

63. Indeed they have

The current fleet needs desperately to be retired.

[Redstone]

19. Submarine-building is economically important to my state. But I'd be goddamned if I'd

be petty or provincial enough to vote for or against a presidential candidate based on whether they wanted to build more submarines, or fewer.

These people are running for President of ALL the states, not just one.

And making a decision to vote for one or the other on the basis of what you think is good for your state, not the country in general, is selfish and ignorant.

Redstone

[1corona4u]

30. Are you fucking kidding?

Unreal. Do you think SC gave a shit about the rest of the country today? I don't. Talk about selfish.

[Redstone]

36. I give up. I'm invoking Redstone's Rule #3: Never argue with someone who has

the same answer for every question.

'Bye.

Redstone

[K Gardner]

42. Good deduction on your part.. one of the nastiest posters here and one who ran a lot off from their

"1st choice" candidate. Pity whomever they are supporting now.

[1corona4u]

49. What ever...

you pimped every candidate. NO loss for Biden. I'm not supporting anyone....

[K Gardner]

54. LOL.. so now its bad to support ALL our candidates with time and money and

moral support.. I've heard everything now. Yeah, I guess by that definition I'm continuing to "pimp" all of them except for Hillary. Glad you're not supporting anyone - just going around pissing on everyone's threads, eh.. must be fun !

[1corona4u]

58. No, you just hopped around the candidates like a bunny rabbit.

you were never committed to Biden. Otherwise, you wouldn't have been so easily swayed. Period.

And you just go around pissing on Hillary threads. Must be fun, eh? Double standard bullshit.

[MADem]

44. You would if you were a submarine builder, though. Or you had a huge

apartment building that was rented by families of submarine builders. Or if you owned some of the shops or restaurants that these submarine families patronized. Or if you supplied gear to the submarine building facility, or ran the bar outside the gate, or owned the taxi business that took the drunken submarine builders home....

All politics IS local.

[Redstone]

62. No, I would not. I vote for presidential candidates based on what I think they'll do for ALL

the states, not just mine.

Whether you think so or not.

Redstone

[MADem]

68. If you say so, fine. I have no reason to doubt you. However, you must know you are in the minority.

If voting for one candidate means you're out of work and unable to make your car note and mortgage payment or pay for your kids' braces, and voting for the other guy means you will probably get a raise or two this year, take the kids to Disney and buy a new family car, well, most people will take the latter option.

[Redstone]

72. Uh-huh. One vote for one specific candidate results in the loss of one specific job.

Sure.

Redstone

[MADem]

76. Why are you getting angry with me?

If a candidate said "I am going to downsize the military to one tenth its current size" you tell me how many military voters would vote for that candidate?

You were the one that talked about the submarine building INDUSTRY. I gave you examples of people affiliated with that industry who would be affected. If you don't think people won't vote to preserve their community and economy, I can't convince you otherwise. I will say that you'd be mistaken, though.

Go up to LIMESTONE, ME and see what BRAC (base realignment and closure) did up there to the population and the job market. Check out what BRAC has done in other regions--it's caused major population shifts, and along with those jobs leaving, businesses leave too. You can't sell eggs, toast and coffee at a breakfast joint if your customers have all left for other places when their jobs go away.

What if a candidate said "I'm going to bring the auto industry back to Detroit." You don't think all of Michigan would vote for that person?


All politics is local. Maybe not for YOU. But for most everyone else. You are NOT the norm.

[Redstone]

77. I'm not getting angry with you.

Redstone

[fujiyama]

73. What the hell are "black" issues?

[MADem]

16. I don't know if this statement is true or not

but all politics is local.

NASA is big money for FL.

It's a major driver for the economy.

It would be like opposing gambling as a sinful pastime--you think Nevada would be thrilled? Or suggesting that coal mining should be eliminated and other power sources be developed? IL, PA, KY and other states would be bullshit.

Where you stand depends on where you sit.

[1corona4u]

32. Exactly.

[thunder rising]

48. The difference is that NASA is not a viable business. It's a money pit

[MADem]

70. Look, I am not 'defending' the viability of the agency. All I am saying is

that all politics is local.

If you work at NASA, and your neck is on the block, how are you voting?

If you own an apartment building, and rent those apartments to those NASA employees who will be let go if the "wrong" guy gets in, how are you going to vote?

Generally, it's Republicans who vote against their economic interests...!

[thunder rising]

13. "A President Like My Father" that sent us to the moon

NASA will vote Repugnat regardless of the fact that it was JFK that gave them the push.

Since then the organization has been politicized and militarized to the point that loosing the NASA vote is like loosing the military vote, it's already accounted for. NASA held the dreams of the country and they squandered it just like Bush and the 9/11 sympathy (ala KO).

NASA is top heavy. Too many marketing people and not enough engineers and scientist.

Here's some advice to NASA. Go back to the desert and make a better rocket. Like compete with Rutan. $50B and you can't deliver a satellite reliably. Well guess what, get better at doing what your supposed to do and quit the fucking whining.

Plus, NASA is only in one little section and really does not affect the DisneyLand section or anything south of Melborne and certainly not Jacksonville.

[Guaranteed]

15. What's a questionable space policy?

Is he...against it?

[sandnsea]

22. Florida has no delegates

They won't be seated until the convention, and by that time everybody will go with the winner like they always do.

[Egnever]

23. LOL

Who cares about florida this time? they have marginalized themselves by jumping the primary schedule. They dont matter this time despite the fact hillary wants them to.

[thunder rising]

26. Absolutely, it's over; get over it FL (writing live from WPB)

[1corona4u]

40. Me too....

and I hope I never come face to face with the likes of you....

[itsrobert]

27. NASA is really outdated

We should be spending our tax dollars on more science/research projects that give more value to the buck.

[Nailzberg]

39. Anyone know what percentage of Florida's delegates the NASA vote accounts for?

:shrug:

Hey, I like NASA, too. I wanted to be an astronaut when I was a kid. Lots of kids do. And they'll need an education to make it happen.

[1corona4u]

43. You fucking people are amazing.....

I hope you all lose your jobs. All the smug-ass comments just show how self-absorbed people really are.

[thunder rising]

53. Been there done that ... welcome to the new GLOBAL ECONOMY of Bush and CLINTON

[1corona4u]

55. Yeah, and I bet YOU

benefited from the Clinton days too. Ingrate.

[thunder rising]

59. Nope, all I remember is the H1-Bs Clintons brought in. and NAFTA.

I earned my Bent..you?

[MADem]

61. All politics is local. It's not just "self absorbtion"

But some people will cut that cloth according to their candidate's measure, I guess.


Let me put it this way--if an OPPONENT to a person's favored candidate came out with that same budget-cutting idea for NASA, and the person's candidate took the opposite view, why, NASA would be "the most important issue on the plate" right now. Instead of "Fuck NASA, they spend too much" you'd hear "Why, the space program is SO important...it's all about SCIENCE!!!....It's important to our ROLE in the world!! On to MARS!! We need to explore the planets!!!!.....THINK of the CHILDREN!!!!"

Where you stand sometimes depends on where your CANDIDATE sits, especially if you are predisposed to like your candidate. If Obama was in favor of expanding NASA, the tune would be very different and everyone who supported him and who is sniping about NASA would be hollering how IMPORTANT NASA was.

[Nailzberg]

75. We are all losing our jobs thanks to poor trade policies.

NASA workers aren't the only people in this country.

We've lost our manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China. We're losing tech sector jobs to India.
How about the cuts in the High Energy Physics program? Haven't heard Clinton on that.

Sorry if I'm not showing NASA enough sympathy, but the economy has made shit pretty bad everywhere, not just for the white coats.

And if we don't focus on education, who's gonna be doing all this innovation, research, and development? Who's going to be working on these solutions for the future?

[sidwill]

57. This NASA premise is absurdly silly

A. I'm unaware of any major policy positions from either candidate that relates to NASA.

B. Even if true, this would only affect the Spacecoast counties which are sparsely populated and heavily Republicon to boot.

C. In conclusion the premise is ridiculous on it's face.

[1corona4u]

60. Yeah, well, then you didn't read the article that I posted.

but that doesn't surprise me.

[sidwill]

65. You are grasping at straws

What percentage of the Aerospace industry vote Democratic in the first place?

Also, I will reiterate, this may affect the Spacecoast but that represents a very small slice of the Florida pie.

[1corona4u]

71. Oh, so it's OK, then....

what the fuck ever. My friend would lose his job. One he's been at for 16 years.

Self-absorbed people.

Unreal.

[Scurrilous]

66. The Space Industry isn't that big a deal.

It represents about 1% of Florida's gross income and is an issue mainly in Brevard County..

[still_one]

64. They did make wise decisions in 2000 and 2004 /nt

[zulchzulu]

74. Info here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4222787&mesg_id=4222787

[silverweb]

78. Very interesting.

I see it brought out the usual naysayers, but that's only to be expected.

Thanks! :hi: