PIck Kerry's VP for him

[Cronus Protagonist]

Poll question: PIck Kerry's VP for him

If you were the one to pick, who would you pick for Kerry's VP and why?

[Ksec]

1. Graham gets us Florida

and hes a smart well spoken man who could be a great addition IMO

[cosmokramer]

4. Not a guarantee.

Jeb is there, and so is black box voting.

[Cronus Protagonist]

5. I never thought of him... interesting point

How are you so sure he could beat the BFEE's tricksters in Florida? Is he married to a Diebold technician? (just kidding)

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[cosmokramer]

71. Did you see this regarding Graham?

"Both sides have pledged to make Florida a key battleground, spending millions on advertising and voter mobilization. Kerry and his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, are scheduled to campaign in South Florida on Monday, the eve of the state's now meaningless primary.

While some strategists argue that Kerry's chances of winning Florida's 27 electoral votes would be helped if he names the state's retiring senior senator, Bob Graham, as his running mate, the poll suggests that Graham offers no particular benefit."

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8125717.htm

[Maat]

2. I voted for Clark.

Balances the ticket in terms of personality, geography, work experience, etc. Military background complements Kerry's. Unbeatable ticket; however, Bill Richardson of New Mexico also would not be bad. What say, folks?

[virtualobserver]

3. Breaux could pull Louisiana

Easily.

[aquaman]

7. He is real good pals with Zell isn't he?

..

[Cronus Protagonist]

8. Ugh. (eom)

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[JI7]

13. breaux is good friends with trent lott

although he is a strong democrat, even if a conservative one.

[cosmokramer]

11. Why focus on a right wing should be a GOP'er ?

Heck, Gep would get Missouri, Clark would get Arkansas and Ohio and Tennessee.

Why choose a GOP'er in dems clothing to get the job done?

[virtualobserver]

21. my cat has a better chance at pulling Missouri for the ticket

than Gephardt.

Unfortunately, My cat will not seek, nor will he accept the nomination
for Vice President.

[Cronus Protagonist]

24. Well, there goes our hopes....

...for a cool cat VP.

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[cosmokramer]

40. You didn't get the point.

The point is WHY put an uber conservative person such as Breaux on the ticket when there are lots of others who have equal or better chances of winning their home states?

[virtualobserver]

50. I don't agree with the point

Breaux has a much better chance at pulling Lousiana.

[arcos]

60. that WON'T happen...

Breaux is anti-choice. Kerry has said abortion will be a litmus test for judges in his Presidency. Why would it be any different for the VP?

[katieforeman]

65. But remember Nader's in the race.

There are quite a few battleground states. I don't think we should pick a nominee on the assumption that he/she'll carry their home state expecially if they might cost us more votes in other states.

[Donna Zen]

90. iirc

Breaux is anti-choice or nearly. There are still deal breakers...with the base being ignored, why rub salt?

[in_cog_ni_to]

6. Clark...

The perfect VP for Kerry. Hands down.

[Cronus Protagonist]

12. I do think Clark would be a sure fire winner

I can't see how Roverer would be able to break the knees of a Kerry/Clark ticket to leave his crippled candidate looking marginally better. I think it would be impossible, barring another attack on US soil and even then, if the candidates play it right, Bush would be kicked out in national outrage at his incompetence.

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[okieinpain]

116. oh you can believe that if kerry picks clark, then we will see

powell as bush's running mate. I know some think rudy, but rudy has baggage

[cosmokramer]

9. Clark gets Arkansas, Louisiana, Ohio, and more...

...and Tennessee, and possibly, for the first time in a long time, Arizona.

Outstanding pick, outstanding ticket:

Two Bars and Four Stars


vs.


What Are The Three "R's" ? (bush/dick)

[virtualobserver]

25. As nominee Clark might have been able to do that.

But as VP he would have no effect.

People do not vote for the VP unless they are extrordinarily powerful and charismatic to the locals.

[Bombtrack]

29. Exactly. I was a Clark for president supporter and WK would have made

a great vp for Edwards, because JE actually has a natural appeal to the moderate southern states of Louisiana and Arkansas, and Clark would re-reflect that.

But Kerry is only competative in about 8 red states as of now, and the only southern one is Florida.

It really is simple minded in my opinion for all these people who supported certain candidates to then automatically support the same people for vp. It's not universal. Edwards and Clark would have been the best, strongest candidates in a general election, and great vps for each other, but Kerry requires nothing that they clearly bring and they give him not much of what he needs

[Hippo_Tron]

54. As optimistic as I am...

Louisiana wasn't going to Edwards anyway. Voters here are solidly democratic but the democratic politicians here are probably some of the most conservative, and not to mention corrupt, in the country. Bush will spend more money here than he did in 2000 but he will win.

[Scoopie]

98. You actually have a point there

But, to many in the "Mississippi River Strategy," Clark does have appeal to the locals.

[Bombtrack]

26. Aweful pick. What don't you understand about the fact that Kerry would not

be MORE popular than Gore in solid southern states like TENNESEE. Gore couldn't win his homestate but Kerry can with Clark? That's just demented thinking. Same goes with Arkansas and Louisiana. Those states are not swingstates unless Bush completely tanks, in which case Kerry would win all the actual swingstates anyway, the only southern ones of which is Florida, or if you consider WV in the south then it too.

[virtualobserver]

30. Louisiana is a swing state.

and Bush is vulnerable there.

[Bombtrack]

35. Not for Kerry until polling shows otherwise. A Tennesseean lost it by 7.7

points. Kerry does carry a stigma as an urban Boston elitist. The deep south is not his battleground in any liklihood when it wasn't Gore's, who was a southernor.

Statewide elections of very moderate democrats are one thing. The more liberal senator from Massachusetts is another.

[cosmokramer]

47. Being a southerner isn't the prerequisite for campaigning in the south....

...Gore ran a terrible campaign--that is fact. He left unmended fences (his own words), and he lost for various reasons that were on his head, not the democratic party.

You cannot unilaterally apply how Gore did vs. anyone else in 2004. It just doesn't work like that.

Bush is HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, and you may see a lot more swing to the blue than anticipated.

[Hippo_Tron]

55. Not really a swing state...

It's a Bush state where he will have to spend a lot of money to keep it. As I explained earlier, the state government is dominated by democratic officials and we have two democratic senators but for the most part, the state party is very conservative. Many times the Democrats running for office are only slightly better if not any better than the Republicans. Generally I can stomach voting for them though, because theyd on't appeal to the religious right like the Repukes do.

[cosmokramer]

37. Demented thinking?

Puhleeeeeeeeeeze. Gimme a break!

[Bombtrack]

43. Well maybe I should be more diplomatic about it but there is nothing

to show tangibally or empiracallly that Clark has the kind of broad appeal to make a state that would not vote for it's own senator turned vp in a presidential election vote for the more liberal senator from Massachusetts.

The only political support Clark has received has been from a relative chunk of the democratic primary electorate, not anything you could point to that would force a sea change in these states for a person at the top of the ticket from the bottom.

There are 8 red swingstates right now that we're working with at winning back for Kerry. Beyond that, you could call some longshots, like Arkansas, like Louisiana. But it's not at all prudent, to place a higher priority on longshots than swingstates, not that I think Clark even would help much in any states as Kerry's vp

[mikehiggins]

97. Clark disarms the whole issue of Kerry being anti-war, etc., which

none of the other VP candidates can do.

If you possibly can, I suggest you go see and listen to Clark free of the media filter. It is quite an enlightening experience.

He makes a positive impression wherever he goes, which is not quite the image you can get from what the pundits report.

[cosmokramer]

38. So I am demented, in your view.

Thanks for the flame!

[Cronus Protagonist]

41. Look on it as a kind of tattoo :) (eom)

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[cosmokramer]

44. I look at it for what it is...

...an embittered Graham supporter lashing out for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Heck, I like Graham!

[Cronus Protagonist]

61. You might be right

...but I'm not so sure many embittered Graham supporters exist in the wild or at the very least, they're surely a rare, rare group.

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[Bombtrack]

45. no, the notion is demented

that some vp who only a handful of people in Tennessee have even heard of is going to make that state vote for John Kerry when it didn't go for Al Gore

[cosmokramer]

46. Al Gore pissed off a lot of Tennesseeans...

...and John Kerry and Wesley Clark are NOT Al Gore. You can't compare apples and oranges, and there are plenty of people in Tennessee that know who Clark is and what he stands for, and the economy in TN is suffering there just as it is everywhere else.

Your reasons are not valid or founded in fact. My reasons may be speculation as well, but they have a root in fact not based on a third party (i.e. Gore).

[Bombtrack]

52. WHAT reasons are not valid or based in fact?

I know that people want to believe that because Clark got alot of various places from the democratic primary electorate that a direct parallel would therefor exist in the general election. That isn't the case. These people who are saying that Clark being the vp could win OKLAHOMA for christ sake, which Gore lost by over 20 points.

The national polling/strategist community of both parties and at large HAS in fact reached a consensus of sorts, that as of now, there are 16 or 17 swingstates, and Tennessee and Louisiana and Arkansas are NOT included. This is valid and this is a fact. Of those 3, Tennessee is the least close to being competative for Kerry, for good reason. Throwing out the 2000 election in relationship to the 2004 election, which you seem to want to do to argue your point is really just beyond reaching.

[OKNancy]

64. Look, in your zeal to promote Graham,

you are mis-stating what I wrote about Oklahoma. Kerry will not win Oklahoma barring a total U.S. landslide, however, with Clark on the ticket he will help in Oklahoma. Here is how. ( and btw, this is what I said before, but you don't seem to grasp it).

Brad Carson is a moderate Democrat who is running for the Senate seat that is being vacated by Don Nickles. Carson has a very good chance to win. In polling so far ( before Coburn jumped in..and who knows if Coburn will even win the Rep. primary) Carson was way ahead of any Republican running. Carson is well funded, and is a darling of the pols..not just in Oklahoma. He already has a big "war chest". He's not some dumb hick Okie (Rhodes Scholar, etc) and he knows how to win.

It probably wouldn't be a good idea for Kerry to campaign in Oklahoma for Carson, and he wouldn't waste his time and money here.....but Clark could. Clark is popular and well respected here.
Oklahomans will vote for Democrats. The governor and both state houses are Democratic. The registration numbers in Oklahoma are 1.5 million Democrats, to 783,000 Republicans. Oklahomans split their ticket. It is highly likely that a lot of voters will vote for Bush, but then vote for Carson. It's happened many times ( David Boren)

I don't know who Kerry will pick for VP. My opinions about Clark's strength are strictly selfish because I think he could help bring a Senate seat over to the Dems. That's all.

Personally, I don't think Kerry will pick Graham or Clark. But I WISH he would pick Clark.

[cosmokramer]

72. How about this poll?

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8125717.htm

"Both sides have pledged to make Florida a key battleground, spending millions on advertising and voter mobilization. Kerry and his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, are scheduled to campaign in South Florida on Monday, the eve of the state's now meaningless primary.

While some strategists argue that Kerry's chances of winning Florida's 27 electoral votes would be helped if he names the state's retiring senior senator, Bob Graham, as his running mate, the poll suggests that Graham offers no particular benefit.
But I guess you are going to argue that this poll doesn't matter.

[I Lean Left]

76. Not to be a wet blanket

ButI didn't see anything in the Tennessee primary that would indicate that Clark was wildly popular there. Or any Southern state for that matter.

This might seem strange, but I think Clark might have been a better possibility for VP if he had never run for Pres. At least he would have had the presumption of being able to deliver some swing states.

[cosmokramer]

79. Tennessee

Tennessee was an extremely popular area for General Clark.

If you look at that race, and how the vote was split, you need to factor one very real issue: Kerry and Clark shared supporters much more than any other combination of democrat candidates. With the propulsion of front-runner status, Kerry overtook Clark in Tennessee, but Clark still did extraordinarily well (25%). Kerry drew Clark supporters in great enough numbers with the huge momentum of his earlier wins that it would have been impossible for General Clark to recover (which is exactly why he dropped out of the race).

The Clark ground organization in TN was spectacular, and General Clark spent a significant amount of time there.

Other bellweather states like Ohio also received Clark well. The state party chairman is still in awe at how well we organized and prepared garnered the endorsements of elected officials in Ohio. Ohio was ready to elect Clark, and my town was organizing for a visit. There is a special connection, statewide, to General Clark. The Bosnia Accords were here--there are monuments to it all over the state. Combined with our enormous veteran population, and senior population, Clark was expected to take Ohio.

You may or may not be correct about whether or not it would have been better had he not run. I believe running was a good thing because of what it did for the dem party: Brought to the attention of all that national security credentials will matter in this election, and we had better be paying attention to that if we want to win. Go Kerry, and hopefully, Clark!

[I Lean Left]

82. Didn't Clark finish 3rd in Tennessee?

Look I'm not disparaging him. I just don't think he would pull as many votes. Truthfully, I've always been way more impressed by his supporters than him. They attempted to draft him, set up web sites, created organization and fund-raising at the 11th hour. In my mind, Clark wasn't able to keep up with the good folks supporting him. I sort of wish he had gotten in earlier or stayed out until the vp sweepstakes.

[cosmokramer]

83. Yes, he did...

... but just weeks before TN, Kerry was polling at 3% in TN. Kerry and Clark shared supporters, and most all of Kerry's support came from Clark's pool. Where he placed was not my point--obviously if much of his would be supporters supported Kerry in the TN Primary, he wouldn't finish extremely high, but he still finished with 25%, which was very, very good. I don't recall Kerry's exact number, but Edwards finished at around 27% and DID NOT share supporters with Kerry (he got the Dean people). Had Clark finished below 15%, then it would be different, but he didn't. He finished strong with a solid 25% core, and the shared support went to the front runner. That solid 25% die-hard core can make all the difference.

I respect your kind remarks about the Clark supporters--that is very nice for you to acknowledge. I beg to differ on your opinion of Clark, but that is what dissent is all about and you are perfectly entitled to your view.

enjoy your Sunday.

[Bombtrack]

84. why would you want a vp who's supporters already support Kerry?

It's rediculous. Look, primary support and general election support are NOT parallel. It's an absurd notion. Dean supporters were relying on it the whole time he was the frontrunner as testement to how electable he was and then Kerry supporters started to do it when Kerry jumped. It's never been the case. It's the biggest myth spread by morons(many in the elite media) since god knows what.

If there was a parallel, John McCain would have been a really weak candidate against Gore and he would have lost South Carolina in a general election. No translation exists, you're trying to say that because a handful(relatively speaking) of democratic primary voters got jonesin for Clark that he is therefor wildly popular in these places despite the fact that the vast majority of poeple there could probably not identify him if you put a picture of him next to carrottop.

[cosmokramer]

86. Your bias is transparent, and your arguments weak.

You underestimate the electorate and the coverage Clark received on the ground and within the party. And you are overlooking the appeal of a four star General to those who participate in the General Election (i.e. all voters).

Remember the draft polls? Remember the blind poll showing a person with Clark's qualifications vs. that of Bush? The polling was done with both democrats and republicans and independents. Clark smoked them. Connecting the dots between the man and the qualifications is an easy task in the general election campaign. It matters, and the popularity of such a person to ALL voters, not just democrats, is what is key.

Clark, by far, has more name recognition than that of your own candidate (who, by the way, wouldn't really even help get Florida--check the Miami Herald today). And it seems to me that you are not arguing on rationalized fact, but on your own dislike for Clark.

[Bombtrack]

106. I was a freaking Clark supporter when he was running for president

And he would have made the strongest canididate on the top of the ticket, but he'd be a complete waiste as Kerry's vp compared to what he could do as a sec of state, defense, NSA or CIA director. Kerry doesn't need any more military or foriegn policy credibility, and all those polls you refurred to were in regards to him at the top of the ticket.

Graham isn't the only very helpful vp choice for Kerry, but Clark isn't one of them. Foriegn policy, not domestic policy and social issues are his lifes focus, and a vp should have an equal balance of expertise in all these areas ideally. If a nominee had a potential difficiency or gap in Clark's main qualities, then he would make a good vp for them, but Clark just can't bring anything substantial to Kerry. Jobs is the most important issue to the voters after all.

[cosmokramer]

108. Yeah, you really sound like it...

...Clark has MUCH more to offer than you are stating, and if you were in fact a Clark supporter, you would know that.

I am tired of your tired arguments and complete lack of reason.

It won't be Graham, I assure you. Too quirky for the general population. And Clark helps Kerry tons and tons and tons, though why point out to you more and more and more to you when refuse to acknowledge or see?

Goodnight, pleasant dreams.

[Donna Zen]

102. Addition is a virtue

I'm trying to follow this conversation but without adding up the total numbers rather than votes cast for an individual, the argument makes no sense. Tennessee may or may not be winnable, but it is a swing state. Kerry will have difficulty bringing over some of Clark's support because if they wanted to vote for just an anti-war military person they would have moved in the primary. Kerry needs Clark to cover his butt, and not just in Tenn. but all over the swing states.

Furthermore, TN had its own voting hanky panky...BIG TIME in 2000. Someone better be watching closely. Clark and Kerry can carry TN if there is a fair and legal vote. The jobs situation in TN is not what it was in 2000.

[Scoopie]

109. Yes

But, unfortunately, even though Clark beat Edwards head-to-head more often than not, the media was all "Kerry, Kerry, Kerry" and "Edwards, Edwards, Edwards."
By the time Tennesseans, many of whom were stunned to learn we were voting in February instead of June, thought about the election, that's all they were seeing.
Clark was wildly popular among Tennesseans who had been paying attention to the race longer than a week before the primary. Edwards was also boosted by a call from neo-con Nashvillian webmaster, Polipundit, to vote for him to push Clark out of the race - it worked.
Here's how I know - and without referencing exit polls.
In East Tennessee, the conservatives are of the old-fashioned kind - the are fiscally conservative and hate this neo-conism. Our congressman, Jimmy Duncan, was one of only six Republicans to vote against the war in Iraq and the $87 billion to fund it further because he didn't like running up the deficit. He's a hero here for doing that. In East Tennessee, those Republicans sick of the neo-con Bush voted for Clark and Clark beat Edwards in East Tennessee.
In the rest of the state, where new Republicans worship at the neo-con trough, Edwards beat Clark and were so proud of the fact that they were Bush supporters voting for Edwards, they told exit pollsters that they were. They didn't keep it a secret.
I'm pushing now for a semi-closed primary in my state. Registered Independents (me) and Democrats ONLY to vote in the Dem primary and vice versa for the Republican primary - the way New Hampshire does it.
I'm not going to have Polipundit pick my nominee again.

[Donna Zen]

91. Floridaaaa

Sorry. Even if I thought that Graham was a good candidate, which I don't, Florida is still using the same scrub list it used in 2000. I've also read the reports that the international observers wrote about the 2002 elections, and the process is not under the proper amount of control. Why should I work my butt off to have Florida's election "make my day"?

Graham has recently had surgery, and while I believe he is fine, what does the rest of the country think? Also, Graham has some habits that can become the focus of the election rather than bush's failed policies. Finally, Graham did not catch on with the majority of voters, and as nice as we all think he is, charisma means something in the fast paced world of a fall election.

Graham needs to replace Tenet. He's perfect for that job.

[Scoopie]

100. BALOGNA!!!

Tennessee didn't go Gore because of the whisper campaign: shhhh... he'll take away your hunting guns.
That won't work this time around because our hunters are seeing the effects of what Bush's anti-environmental policies are doing to the land. It's true! I don't have a link right now, but I've been reading it in various magazines.
And I'm in Tennessee - I believe my finger is a bit better on the pulse than yours.
Bush supporters voted for Edwards.
People who liked the military appeal voted for Kerry and Clark, splitting the vote and others, who made up their mind to vote that day (TONS of Tennesseeans didn't know we were voting so early this year. We usually have our primaries in June.), voted for Kerry.
Check the exit polls that Robbed's been posting. You'll see that's true.
Tennessee is a moderate state, despite what the media magpies tell you and here's why:
1976 - Carter
1980 - Reagan
1988 - Bush 41
1992 - Clinton
1996 - Clinton
2000 - Shrub (by LESS than 3 percent)
Then, we turned around in 2002 and voted for a Democratic governor.
We vote for the best person - with a little work in this state - what Kerry's planning to do with Clark and Harold Ford Jr.'s help - we can point out how Bush has hurt Tennesseans, who don't have a state income tax, by running up the deficit and creating more taxes for us on the local level. We're a state that HATES taxes, so this is doable. We just have to get rid of the "tax and spend liberal" meme that will be placed on Kerry's head. Clark can help off-set that - plus they're both military. And Tennessee, known as the Volunteer State because of the high number of people who volunteer to go into service - will love a "heavy medal" ticket.
Also, in East Tennnessee, the most conservative voting district in the country, there are BIG RUMBLINGS about how badly Bush has run up the deficit. These paelo-conservatives (government out of our lives, keep taxes and the deficit low) don't like Bush. I see it every day in the newspaper's letters.
It's winnable folks - don't give up on Tennessee.

[Scoopie]

105. Hmmmm

The more I look at my statement, the more I'm beginning to think that "So goes Tennessee, so goes the rest of the nation."
I know Tim Russert has Ohio pegged this year as that sort of bellweather state - but it looks like Tennessee has been doing it for nearly as long as I've been alive!
:)

[JI7]

10. why is larouche in the poll ?

[Cronus Protagonist]

14. I didn't want to exclude any of the nine candidates for president

Do you think I should have? I would also have excluded Lieberman as well as LaRouche if I were going to editorialize in the poll, but I thought it best to list every candidate and let the voters decide.

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[cosmokramer]

16. What about Vincent Hamm?

LOL

[Cronus Protagonist]

17. Oh damn! If I only had one more slot in the polling software... (eom)

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[cosmokramer]

42. LOL...

Next time, remember to show Hamm some honey :)

[jenk]

15. Edwards

runs strongest in the south, best speaker, best chance in 2012

[JohnKleeb]

18. I like it

I think Kerry will make if he doesnt make John his VP his Attorney General who is not John Ashcroft. He should have a role, thats for sure.

[Scoopie]

101. Best speaker?

:puke:
And that's from having drunk beer every time he claimed he was the son of a mill worker - which was EVERY TIME HE OPENED HIS MOUTH LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES.

His speaking skills leave me uninspired.

[whistle]

19. Hillary said she won't accept the VP position didn't she?

..Who are some other women Democrats who could really add to the ticket?:think:

[Cronus Protagonist]

20. Oh, Moseley-Braun would be excellent

As would Cynthia McKinney - she is also one of my heros. I just searched for Moseley Braun and she was also a candidate - I didn't know that. Apologies to anyone who is offended by that, but I had no idea. I would have put her where I put Hillary Clinton, if I had known earlier.

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[JohnKleeb]

22. you forget one

Barbara Lee
I personally voted for my other favorite candiate.
Kerry-Kucinich, my two favroite guys.

[virtualobserver]

28. Kucinich as VP......

might convince Nader to back off.

[JohnKleeb]

51. not just that

:) we could get Ohio easier and Ohio is our Florida. I love both of those two guys.

[Hippo_Tron]

57. Kucinich will NOT help us in Ohio...

He's a congressman who is far more liberal than most in the state.

[JohnKleeb]

59. he still could help and I admit it wont happen.

[Auntie Bush]

32. Hillary said, "No" she wouldn't run for President. But

when asked if she'd accept VP...she said she hadn't been asked or liked being Senator or something like that, forgot. But she didn't say she wouldn't acccept VP. Boy would that energize the Right!

[arcos]

62. Mary Landrieu, and if Kerry wanted to be bold, Rep. Tammy Baldwin (WI)

Not only would Baldwin be the first woman VP, but, but also the first lesbian.

[Bombtrack]

23. this poll is rediculous without graham as an option

Are you part of the illogical-paranoia driven cadre hear who insist that the bigget and bluest red swingstate there is of Florida is unwinnable?

Graham is the best vp choice by far, followed by Landrieu. Clark is just a dimwitted choice, and I was a Clark for pres supporter. Kerry doesn't need anything that Clark would bring to someone as a vp. It's really saddening to see so many DUers oblivious to this

[Cronus Protagonist]

27. I included the presidential candidates

Not everyone in the Senate and House, for obvious reasons. And I am not part of any cadre, logical or illogical, paranoid or not paranoid.

You make a weak argument for Graham and/or Landrieu, IMHO. Anyone who's been watching elections for a while would know that the VP is the guy who is supposed to bash the incumbent, leaving the presidential candidate above the fray.

And anyone who's been watching knows Clark has a big stick, tons more foreign policy experience than Kerry and he has cojones the size of Texas, so your argument merely indicates your own bias rather than making any kind of coherent point supported by any real facts.

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[Bombtrack]

33. Graham was a presidential candidate. And Graham does hate Cheney

He also knows his shit on the balance of foreign and domestic policy as a whole better than either Edwards or Clark.

Kerry does not need anyone with more foriegn policy experience than him. In the box next to well qualified on foriegn policy, Kerry gets a checkmark, on the box next to war-hero, he gets one as well.

Kerry needs someone who can reflect on him enhancingly in terms of his weaknesses on ideology, demography, and geography.

That is what a vp does. He or she does not have to be a future presidential candidate either. Graham's main strength is the fact that he is the most popular politician in a state that happens to be
1: The biggest red swingstate and biggest swingstate overall, 2: The bluest red swingstate along with New Hampshire according to the numbers and therefor not a longshot, and 3: the state that if won this time around would serve as the best poetic justice and harm the republican psyche in the greatest way possible.

And not only does Graham help in geography, he is also a moderate democrat and is perceieved to be that way. Which helps innoculate Kerry's liberalism to a degree in the eyes of the voters. He is also better qualified to be president than most of the candidates having served at most levels of national and state government.

AND he can give us a new choice in 4 years strategically of who we run with in 08, as he would retire.

[Cronus Protagonist]

34. Thanks. I'm beginning to understand your reasoning here (eom)

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[Bombtrack]

36. Your welcome, if I sounded hostile above it's because there are a number

of DUers completely flaming away there notion that Florida is somehow unwinnable and they really refuse to be logical or specific about it in any way. You're obviously not one of them

[Cronus Protagonist]

39. No, I'm not one of any group :)

I would not join a group that would stoop so low as to allow me to be a member. :)

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[Scoopie]

111. Sounds like you

believe the media a bit too much.
If Clark were given HALF the positive coverage Dean or Edwards undeservedly got (no offense, Dean or Edwards supporter, but Clark beat them both in more matchups than not), then Clark wouldn't have felt the need to quit after Tennessee.
I have no reason to want to tell you what my IQ is, but I can assure you that I'm not dimwitted.
What Clark adds to the ticket:
1. He's not milqutoast. I watched Richardson, Graham and Rendell give Bush a pass this morning on his 9/11 ads, his reasoning for going to war and his handling of 9/11, period. Clark didn't do that. Clark pointed out exactly what needs to be said: Why do you trust Bush with homeland security when the worst civilian autrocity by foreign sources occurred during his watch? People haven't been trained to think that way - but it's so obvious that, when it's said as forcefully as the General said it today, they "get it."
2. He's Southern.
3. He doesn't look like he's a baby (ahem).
4. And, most importantly, he can step into the president's shoes if the president should become unable to do his duties. I'm sorry, but I don't see many others on the short list who I would trust to do this - even if they COULD bring in votes from certain states and/or regions.

I think you should apologize for the "dimwitted" comment. The only thing "dimwitted" about this whole race has been the media's handling of it: corporate whores who want to turn an important election into a horserace and who don't cover issues, but personalities. It's stupid and tries my patience.

[rucky]

31. I don't see how it can't not be Clark

[atre]

53. So, basically you agree with me that you don't think Clark is a winning VP

Watch the double negatives; they completely change the meaning.

[FrenchieCat]

48. I also vote Clark...and why here.....

We all have great ideas and a singleness of purpose. We must be focused and united in wanting the best government for Americans and for America...and for the world (for that matter)

I believe that we all agree that the NUMBER ONE priority is to have a Democratic President in the White House and Bushbegone.

We all want to win this one.

I dare not opine as to what will happen once Kerry is President....
My only obsession, for the time being, is actually winning.....
Everything else after is just pure bonus.

My reasoning and my case for Clark as VP follows that path..... in addition to the broadest and most guaranteed geographical strategy and an attention for the demographics that must be taken into consideration.

With Clark as Veep on the ticket, the Democratic Ticket becomes bulletproof in reference to running against an Incumbent WARTIME President (as Bush, Republicans and the media is calling Bush). The fact that the Republicans' convention will be in New York right before the 9/11 anniversary is not lost on us....is it?

Bush's "steady leadership theme" has already begun....and will continue like a steady drum roll that gets louder and louder.

Even as Republicans were floating rumors that Bush might replace Cheney with Gulliani or Colin Powell...and although those rumors for the moment are said to be off the table (but I would caution to never say never)...why do you think these are the names being floated about?....a former Vet/4 star General/SOS and a "proclaimed" New York Hero of 9/11?...both with reasonable bipartisan appeal (some certainly will disagree with my description...but we are talking about middle America here).

Republicans are already Questioning Kerry's votes cast in reference to weapons programs and his actions shortly after Vietnam. There is also an old book that Kerry penned which has a picture on the cover showing Kerry with an upside down American Flag. (Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but If I know about it..and if I have seen this cover, then I know that Karl Roves knows about it too...and I am sure they are saving it, and will bring it out much closer to the actual vote, so that there will not be adequate time to explain it away....we must be prepared for it at all cost....don't blame me for bringing it up...it's out there, trust me. If it's a hoax, then give me the evidence of that...that would settle that dread that I have in the back of my head). It this is real, it will be very difficult to explain this picture away to Middle America without Clark on the ticket (who has said that he would not encourage, but he would support a ban on flag desecration. Regardless of how distasteful this may sound to Democrats.....it could be a very useful stance....Kerry is on record of being against it...the mix is a good thing).

Also, for those who believe that Clark's experience are a needless duplication of Kerry's....this is not an accurate perception. It's simplistic, but not factual. Kerry's experience in reference to Foreign Relations and National Security as a Senator does not in any way mirror what Clark did as Commander-in-Chief of the US Southern Command (SOUTHCOM), Commander-in-Chief of the US European Command(EUCOM), and Supreme Allied Commander, Europe (SACEUR). General Clark held the last two positions concurrently.

The National Security (which is not another label for Foreign policy...as is it a different skill set) knowledge that Clark has is executive in nature and he is considered an expert by most (even Republicans know this). Add the deep and expansive Foreign policy experience that Clark has, such as negotiating the Dayton Peace Accords for Bosnia, and the managing and sustaining of the 19 nations coalition together during Kosovo. This is not experience that Kerry shares. Running an entire war and not losing a single American life is not what Kerry's experience represents. The experience of these two war heroes however, complements the entire array of legislative/executive qualities of what may be the Presidential Election theme of 2004.

Take that theme away from Bush, and what is there left?

Gay Marriage and a proposed amendment? I also think that this issue would be easier for Democrats to deflect with two masculine war Veterans heroes running on one ticket. The country would be made to understand, with these two voices speaking the same message....that the real issue is Human Rights and the need to recognize the issue as such, and not to temper with the constitution by adding discrimination to it. Coming from two patriots, discussion of the constitution and what it should represent, as opposed to what the Republicans want to turn it into would be effective.

If Americans know that the Military/War on Terror/War in Iraq/National & Homeland security issues can be handled effectively and more than satisfactorily by the Democratic ticket and that a transition could be easily maneuvered (Bush's theme again is ....STEADY Leadership), the election will then be about what it should be about....the economy, jobs, health care and the future of America. That is Kerry's forte and Americans would listen without the other background noise (fear, fear, fear, war, war, war, terror, terror, terror, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11).

That is why I believe that the Democratic Ticket should be the "Heavy Medal" ticket...... We must not just neutralize...but we must neuter BushCo. on the entire enchilada.....give them no room to move, not room to tinker.

Heroes vs. Zeros.....now, that's priceless!

we KNOW the Repubs have an "October surprise" planned. Maybe Osama, maybe something with North Korea or some other world crisis area. Not to say that Kerry can't talk to whatever it might be, but two expert voices wouldn't hurt either. I noticed that when Saddam was captured, it was Clark that the media went to first of all the candidates, catching him in the middle of his Hague testimony several times. Even the international media--remember that article in the London paper that gave the reactions of "world leaders"? That was in mid-Dec, so it's not like he was a front-runner, altho I'll grant his star was on the rise. And when Libya announced they were getting rid of their WMD program, Clark was really the only candidate who could talk to all that had been done by Tony Blair to negotiate with Qadaffi even before Bush came to office.

Note: Clark appointed as SOS would mean going through a set of confirmation hearings. I don't know if we want to give the (most likely) Republican majority Senate a chance to "pay back" Clark...considering how he has spoken out against the Iraq War, PNAC, 9/11, etc...

And of course, that appointment could only be considered if we won.

That's my take....
PS. There's quite a few other reasons that Clark would make a good VP but they are so numerous, I thought I'd list the ones that no one else can compare in quite the same manner...or else, I'd have to write a book.

[crazychester]

49. How about Kerry/Cleland?

Just a thought.

[Hippo_Tron]

56. BAD IDEA!!!

Giving a looser a cabinet position is bad enough. Putting him on your ticket is even worse. I love Max Cleland and all and it would be totally different had he won re-election to the Senate but he didn't and so he's out.

[Jai4WKC08]

67. Max Cleland is a total hero

I love him, and I love the work he's done for Kerry, even when it was against Clark (not that he ever attacked Clark personally that I know of). I would NEVER call Cleland a loser.

But Max Cleland can't be VP. He's had some serious depression problems (not that they're not totally justified!), as recently as after his loss to the ratbastard/chickenhawk Chambliss. The Repubs would do an Eagleton on him so fast it would make your head spin.

I'd like to see Max Cleland as Secretary of Defense or Homeland Security. I'd be willing to bet there's a key position in a Kerry administration for him somewhere, and it couldn't be more deserved.

[Cronus Protagonist]

58. So Clark got the nod from DU - Kerry/Clark is DU's landslide choice for VP

Very convincing poll results. No doubt about it that DU's choice is Kerry/Clark - should we make that the official endorsement, or ask Skinner to pin the poll and keep it going?

"FCUK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[Finch]

63. Bill Nelson...

Astronaut.

Military background.

House of Representative 1979-1991.

Florida State offices 1995-2000.

Senator 2001-.

Popular in FL.

Moderate.

Would help carry FL.

All you need in a VP for Kerry.... I'm sorry but the selection of possible tickets here is barmy... I think it highly unlikely that Kerry is going to choice a former rival to be his VP in November... so i don't really think this selection works...

[NewJerseyDem]

68. Jeb Bush is the governor of Florida

We will probably get a republican in Massachussetts unless the state legislature strips the governor of the power to appoint senators, but even if they do there will be a vacancy for several months. Plus, if Bill Nelson is VP, then Jeb Bush gets to appoint a republican in Florida. The democratic party cannot afford to lose two senate seats when we already have an uphill battle to take back the senate. No sitting democratic senator from a state with a republican governor can really be considered, unless MA changes its law, or if that state has a different law that doesn't let the governor appoint senators.

[cosmokramer]

73. Nor Graham or Nelson

"Both sides have pledged to make Florida a key battleground, spending millions on advertising and voter mobilization. Kerry and his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, are scheduled to campaign in South Florida on Monday, the eve of the state's now meaningless primary.

While some strategists argue that Kerry's chances of winning Florida's 27 electoral votes would be helped if he names the state's retiring senior senator, Bob Graham, as his running mate, the poll suggests that Graham offers no particular benefit.

A ticket that includes Florida's junior senator, Bill Nelson, leads Bush-Cheney by only 2 percentage points."

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8125717.htm

Factor in Jeb and Diebold, and Florida is no guarantee. We are better with someone who can win his home state--guaranteed--or someone with the name recognition to help carry an number of states. That isn't Graham or Nelson, as much as I like them both.

[Donna Zen]

95. Agreed

If by rival you mean Clark, I agree. But please check on Nelson's DC living arrangements--moderate would be widely off the mark.

[cosmokramer]

74. Make the endorsement!

Of course, I am biased, but go ahead!

[Layman]

66. Buried Bodies

Senator Graham, being the former chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in the 107th Congress and having served as co-chairman of the Joint Inquiry on 9/11, knows where the bodies are interned, a real strong selling point when picking the man to succeed you. Not that Graham's my pick, still, it might give some people to pause, sort of speak.

[welshTerrier2]

69. midwest midwest midwest

i'm going with tom vilsack for vp ...

[Donna Zen]

96. I think you are correct

What I couldn't find in his resume was any mention of national security credentials...but hey, who wants to win the election.

He is originally from PA.

[mike1963]

70. I picked 'other' because I think a governor would be the most effective...

I like Clark and Edwards but I believe someone like Richardson or Rendell would help more in getting rid of chimpy...

[Jai4WKC08]

75. I don't think so....

"...I believe someone like Richardson or Rendell would help more in getting rid of chimpy..."

I might have thought so, esp Richardson, before this morning on Face the Nation. What a couple of wimps. Totally unwilling to criticize Bush, and Rendell (I think it was) even praised Bush's "leadership" for 9/11. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not what we need in a VP. Not now.

[mbee]

78. For some reason I always knew it would end up being Kerry/Edwards

regardless of how we all feel. I think Edwards can ward off all the absurd media spin on Kerry in his very gentlemanlike, convincing way. I also think Mary Landrieu would be great, but I don't think they will pick a woman this time.

[cosmokramer]

80. I know for certain...

...that it will NOT be Edwards. 100% guarantee.

Kerry doesn't like him, and the campaign specifically said they would choose someone who has foreign policy experience, and it would be a requirement. Also, I don't think Edwards helps the ticket at all. He can't deliver his home state.

The campaign will choose someone who is well seasoned in fp/military/diplomatic experience, who can deliver their home state, and who can help significantly in swing states. That isn't Edwards, or Landrieu (I agree, they won't pick a woman this time).

Also, they will not pick someone with only legislative experience--that would be a really bad idea--two Senators or Sen & Congressman, though they may choose a Senator who used to be a Governor (like Graham, but not necessarily Graham). Again, that is not Edwards.

It may well be someone we haven't yet thought of, but I know if will definitely not be Edwards or Landrieu.

[ScreamingMeemie]

77. Kerry/McCain.

Why not?

[dogman]

87. Isn't McCain pregnant with Bush's baby.

We don't need another Bush that close to the WH.

[Desertrose]

92. uhhmm...because he's a REPUB

and Nader would get a hell of a lot of votes outta that combo.


No way would I vote McCain...he's my senator and I know too much about the crap he's pulled on the Navajo.

NO WAY
NO HOW

Peace
DR

[Crunchy Frog]

81. I vote Clark,

hands down. My reasoning can be seen in other threads, and is better summed up by other people who write far more eloquently than I do.

[robbedvoter]

85. Clark: Heroes vs Zeroes ticket - beats "the two Johns voting for war"

Anyone hearing the 3 stooges on Face the Nation this morning vs Clark on Blitzer today can see the difference a VP makes! Richardson, Graham, rendell were allowing Shiffer to make them acknowledge that "W showed great leadership" on 9.11 and AWOl was "rhetoric".
When Clark was asked the same question by Blitzer (are the 9.11 ads appropriate) he first noted that Iraq is missing from the ads, then he said: If W wants to use 9.11 as an issue - fine - but it may prove to be a loaded gun pointed at him" - then he mentioned thr 9.11 commission chicanery - none of the 3 stooges did (and Edwards still thinks OBL=Saddam).
graham uttered a major groaner this morning when asked why he voted against war and Kerry for: "I knew things that Kerry didn't"

[noelschutz]

119. Kerry/Clark has the spark...

I agree with Robbed that if the four possible VP choices who appeared on FTN and Late Edition were interviewing for the position, three flopped and Clark won hands down. Gephardt and Graham are good men, but old tales once told that need be told no more. Who sounded like Kerry's point man or pit bull? Only Clark. He said that if Bush wanted to make an issue of 9/11 he would be pointing the gun right back at himself. The insiders have lulled away the time and allowed Bush to push his agenda. We need someone with a sign that says STOP! Dead End!

Kerry and Clark have exhibited the chemistry to spark this campaign and the bond of respect and friendship to be partners on the road to the White House.

[GBD4]

88. Nelson or Graham

we want Florida, and we want someone with great integrity and class

[cosmokramer]

89. Graham and Nelson do not help with Florida...

"Both sides have pledged to make Florida a key battleground, spending millions on advertising and voter mobilization. Kerry and his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, are scheduled to campaign in South Florida on Monday, the eve of the state's now meaningless primary.

While some strategists argue that Kerry's chances of winning Florida's 27 electoral votes would be helped if he names the state's retiring senior senator, Bob Graham, as his running mate, the poll suggests that Graham offers no particular benefit...

...A ticket that includes Florida's junior senator, Bill Nelson, leads Bush-Cheney by only 2 percentage points."

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8125717.htm

Factor in Jeb and Diebold, and Florida is no guarantee. We are better with someone who can win his home state--guaranteed--or someone with the name recognition to help carry an number of states. That isn't Graham or Nelson, as much as I like them both and agree that they are wonderful candidates for any office.

Also, this poll was take PRE NADAR, and Nadar will be a factor in Florida (90,000 votes in 2000)

[GBD4]

99. well

if you want to base everything on the one poll that's been taking with Graham and Nelson as VPs, then so be it . . . it's going to be close, and if anyone tips the deciding 1% towards the Democrats, it's going to be a favorite son, not someone else

[cosmokramer]

103. My point is...

...that Florida is no guarantee at all, regardless of who is on the ticket--and I don't base this on one poll, but many polls showing how close the Florida play will be this fall.

Accordingly, we need someone on the ticket who is much more likely to win his own state, or help in bellweather states (like Ohio). And I don't believe that Nelson or Graham can do that as effectively as some of the other in contention. Mind you, I repeat myself, I think they are fabulous candidates, but they won't have the "it" factor to appeal to the general electorate outside their home state, which may or may not be winnable for them.

Jeb Bush is as evil as his brother, and Diebold black box voting is not reliable. Factor in Nadar (who was not included in that poll, I believe), and we have a big problem isolating the VP to a from Florida candidate.

[politick]

93. Kerry/Clark

Wraps up the two biggest deficits to the Dems: southerner and national security.

[mandyky]

94. Other

Kerry could choose Clark, Edwards, or Gephardt, since the last 2 are not running for Congress next time. I think Kerry should not pick any members of Congress as VP, unless they are not up for re-election, same with Governors - Dems need to hold the positiions they have. I actually think Gary Hart might make a good VP because of his knowledge concerning terrorism.

[cosmokramer]

104. Gary Hart

is a great guy, but his torid past (at least the GOP will make it out to be torid) hurts him badly in this consideration.

Edwards and Gephardt, though they said they would not be running again, are poor choices because it does not balance the ticket with executive experience. We won't win on a legislative only ticket.

Clark, though I admit my bias, is a logical choice because no seats are left vacant, and he has executive and fp experience out the wazoo.

[Donna Zen]

107. Gary Hart

is an interesting suggestion, but I'm not sure that everthing has been swept under the rug. Kerry is cautious and deliberate. So I think a probable "no." Besides he can use Hart at Homeland Security to much better avail.

Gephardt is reported to be very close to Kerry. Is that true? But winning MO with one district is iffy. Plus, although I belong to a union, plenty of moderates shy away from them having bought into the meme that unions are losing them jobs. I give Gephardt a possible, John likes him and sees an advantage with having someone who knows the ins and outs of congress.

My honest to god opinion is that the nominee will be bizarre...we'll all just say "WTF."

I find the Kerry group rather tone deaf to the people. Don't think I won't work for the ticket in anyway I can, because bush has to go or we will lose what little democracy we have left. But I am not so foolish as to think that the grassroots is being listened to.

[Leilani]

117. I also thought about Gary Hart

The guy is brilliant; he's an expert on terrorism, knows foreign policy backwards & forwards, & always won in Colorado.

However, he's a bit of an odd duck; the press always gave him a bad time.

And then there's "Monkey Business" & Donna Rice.

I think it would be too risky.

[NNN0LHI]

110. I think Bill Clinton is available for duty, Sir. Hey. I can dream n/t

[Dr Fate]

112. Clark is the strongest pick...

...smart, handsome,qualified, hard to attack.

[Butterflies]

113. Clark gets my vote

:dem:

[hedgetrimmer]

114. Cheney

Just because someones got a donkey next to their name does not mean that they are a DEMOCRAT!

[cosmokramer]

115. ooooooooooohhhhh....

...I like your peace pretzel...let Bush choke on it!

[fujiyama]

118. I'm starting to think...

it may be Gephardt, because Kerry strikes me as extremely cautious (to the point of taking few political risks) and Gephardt is an another dull, cautious politician. I'm not sure if he can deliver Missouri though. He may help in Ohio.

It seems as though there may be some split between Kerry and Edwards, but I don't see why the two have to be best buddies. Running on a ticket is more of a business relationship.

If it's between Gep and Clark I'd go with Clark, but I think Edwards is a better campaigner. If Graham could definetely deliver Florida (for the simple reason tha we wouldn't really need any other swing state), I'd go with him, but I'm not sure he's still quite that popular in that state, though it's likely he would have been reelected to his senate seat if he decided to run again. Plus, there are questions about the fairness of the state in the first place.