Speaking personally about Dean bashing

[Brian_Expat]

If certain candidates continue to attack key elements of Dean's platform, including fiscal responsibility and the folly of the war in Iraq, I am going to have a VERY tough time voting for them.

We need a Democrat in the White House who is determined to fully reverse the Bush doctrine, not "accept" some of it, or vote for it and "regret" it later, or support it, then kinda support it, then oppose it, then who-knows-what tomorrow.

I want a tax system that pays the bills of the federal government.

I want a stronger US dollar.

I want a focus on job creation and an attack on big corporate interests (who are heavily funding some Democrats' campaigns with $2000 donations) who are moving themselves and their jobs "offshore."

I want a strategy for Iraq that neither abandons the poor people there NOR leaves us completely alone without support from other countries.

So far, there are some candidates who meet these criteria, and some who do not. The ones who do not are on the offensive against Dean and a few other candidates because they are "too liberal" and "cannot win."

Well, as far as I'm concerned, if we have a "Democratic" president who supports (even somewhat) the Bush doctrine, we haven't "won."

[cthrumatrix]

1. this bashing is shameful...people should share why their candidate

is the best.

No need for constant bashing. I'm all for Dean/Clark or DK...as long as they can beat bush.

And nobody can tell you who will be the best vs. shrub.

[Dogmudgeon]

2. They're all good

Even the much-reviled Joe Lieberman has kicked some significant right-wing tush in his time.

We have nine excellent candidates. This ought to be a boon for us.

--bkl

[many a good man]

3. Excellent points

I'm behind you 100%. My priorities are:

1) Refute Bush doctrine; return to intl cooperation
2) Reverse policy of drowning govt in the bath tub
3) Restore and extend environmental regulations

Candidates need to distinguish themselves but let's not go overboard.

[Padraig18]

4. Thank you.

I don't want 4 years of "Bush Lite". I want a DEMOCRAT in the White House! :)

[edzontar]

5. Well-put.

But sometimes i think that the time has come to turn the guns on the candidates the most egregious bashers claim to support.

I have tried to avoid this relatiatory approach up to this point, but my patience is fading fast.

Help me--I don't want to go to the Dark Side!!!

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

9. Here we go again...

What a surprise!!!

You see what I mean?

[Democrats unite]

7. Sometimes it's best when people practice what they preach.

eom

[Brian_Expat]

13. Count up the candidate-bashing threads on the forum

The vast majority are attacks on Dean, not the other way around.

And when Dean takes pot-shots from supporters of certain Democrats-come-lately, you bet I'm going to point out the gaping hypocrisy in their arguments. If you don't like that, perhaps you should consider talking more about why your candidate should be voted for, rather than why other candidates shouldn't be.

[Democrats unite]

20. How many times have you edited this post...

and still don't have it right.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=35539

[shance]

33. Will you answer the question Dem?

It was a good point and you ignored the question.

[Padraig18]

36. You can only edit a post for an hour.

DUHHHHHH.... :eyes:

[Democrats unite]

37. You can add a post to it to correct the wrong

unless you don't want the correct information DUHHHHHH....:eyes:

[Padraig18]

41. You said 'edit'.

I do NOT stand corrected.

[Democrats unite]

35. And you know this for a fact as new as you are here?

You can count your own threads to prove your point, but you won't because it will prove you wrong.

[xultar]

8. Are the "bashes" incorrect or inaccurate? just a question n/t

[Brian_Expat]

10. I can bash back twice as hard and three times more accurately n/t

[xultar]

12. Ok, you can bash, I just wanted to know if what the bashers were

saying was incorrect, that's all.

What is bashing anyway? In your opinion.

[Brian_Expat]

17. Usually, what bashers are saying with regard to Dean is incorrect

For instance, the attacks on the contention that he's the only farm-state Democrat. He's correct. Vermont is the only state of presidential contenders whose primary industry is farming. Of course, that doesn't stop the bash-bash-bashing of Vermont and Mr. Dean.

[Democrats unite]

14. See reply #7

eom

[Brian_Expat]

19. See my reply to #7 n/t

[Democrats unite]

21. Lets go back to 7 again.

eom

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

15. Maybe we should just give in to the Dark Side...

These creeps just don't know when to let it go....

[Brian_Expat]

22. I've considered it. . .

Howard Dean and his campaign have been quite restrained in the wake of all this underhanded bashing (the secretly-funded negative ads, constant attacks on his patriotism and state, etc.) Some think it's time for the Dean campaign to get as savvy at attacking as the other candidates.

They're counting on continued civility from the Dean campaign even as they bash. If they get 1.5 million Dean supporters angry, they're going to have a real problem on their hands.

I think continuing to take the high road against Dean-bashers from the Clark, Kerry and other camps is the right strategy and I applaud the governor for doing it -- especially considering the extensive skeletons in the closets of those other candidates.

[xultar]

25. You consider this Dean supporter here @ DU Restrained?

His reply PM to me...so using your logic I shouldn't support a candidate like Dean because his supporters are rude an insensitive. Correct?

I'm an American - and you are a lackluster fuckwit.
From: Mr. X.
Date: Dec 21st 2003

Thank you for showing us exactly who we DON'T want voting in the next election.

You proposing to posit yourself as spokesperson for the entire Black community is by far one of the dumbest mails I've received. Can you imagine my attempting to speak for all whites? Absurd. Absurd as your inane insinuation.

I also wonder how many Blacks would respond to your implication that a Dean support site created by other Blacks was akin to a KKK site for whites. You are clearly a complete moron.

You owe all thinking people an apology for taking up valuable space, and my time. And one more thing - note that you started a feud with me. I will not only rise to the occassion but will stuff your insipid, racist posts on DU with regularity unless you apologize for your brainless mail message.


Mr. X

[Brian_Expat]

28. Compared to most other campaign bashers, yes

Individual supporters may say and do stupid things from time to time -- usually in response to OTHERS' attacks -- but the Dean campaign has been careful not to launch underhanded attacks against other candidates, naming them in anonymously funded negative ads, mentioning them by name and blasting them as "unworthy for the nomination," etc.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

11. Yes, both.

nt

[xultar]

16. Like what, I haven't been on DU in a couple of weeks so...what

is both inaccurate and incorrect? What have people been using to bash Dean...I presume it is Dean here that has been bashed.

[killbotfactory]

18. Yeah...

If a democratic candidate wants to continue running huge defecits, and doesn't rebuke the Bush policy of attacking countries before they're a threat to the US, then I'm going to have a real hard time supporting them. They could be good on other issues, but those two are doing the most damage to the US and our safety, IMO.

[xultar]

23. I got bashed by a DH supporter in a PM...

Should I find it hard to support DH if this is how his supporters behave? (Read Mr. X's a fellow DUer's PM below)

I'm an American - and you are a lackluster fuckwit.
From: Mr. X (name changed to protect the guilty)
Date: Dec 21st 2003


Thank you for showing us exactly who we DON'T want voting in the next election.

You proposing to posit yourself as spokesperson for the entire Black community is by far one of the dumbest mails I've received. Can you imagine my attempting to speak for all whites? Absurd. Absurd as your inane insinuation.

I also wonder how many Blacks would respond to your implication that a Dean support site created by other Blacks was akin to a KKK site for whites. You are clearly a complete moron.

You owe all thinking people an apology for taking up valuable space, and my time. And one more thing - note that you started a feud with me. I will not only rise to the occassion but will stuff your insipid, racist posts on DU with regularity unless you apologize for your brainless mail message.



Mr. X

My original PM to Mr. X
>Don't ever post anything trying to prove a point regarding
>something you don't know anything about. IF a Black Dean
>supporter wanted to post it...Fine. None did. We can speak
>for ourselves thank you. We don't need anyone going to get
>information for us and telling us what we should think. You
>should apologize to me and the other African Americans here @
>DU for the nonsense you posted.
>
>AGAIN, Let us decide what is important to our community
>regardless of the candidate.
>
>That's like me going to get some KKK stuff and saying See
>that's why all White people are racist. I'm smart enough to
>know that the KKK doesn't speak for all of you as you should
>know not all Black organizations speak for all blacks.
>
>Don't be ignorant and insensitive.

[Brian_Expat]

26. I don't understand why you're shocked

When you do lots of bashing, eventually someone will hit you back.

As I've said before, the Dean campaign has been, by far, the most restrained in this primary to date. If Dean For America was to become as attack-driven as the campaigns bashing him, the other campaigns would be annihilated.

The reason he hasn't is because, unlike those other candidates, this election for him is about more than just his personal political future. Ergo, he wants the party to be preserved to the greatest extent possible and is willing to take a few hits.

However, if it's a bashing candidate who ridicules Dean's platform who gets the nomination, I will have a hard time voting for that presidential candidate, and will devote most of my resources to congressional districts and retaking Congress.

[xultar]

27. GO BACK AND READ THE THREADS WHERE I'VE POSTED

I HAVEN'T BEEN A BASHER!!!! YOU HAVEN'T BEEN HERE THAT LONG TO ACCUSE ANYONE OF ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!

[xultar]

29. I C U haven't donated so you can't search....

DO SOME RESEARCH B4 YOU ACCUSE ANYONE OF ANYTHING.

[Brian_Expat]

30. Speaking of decorum. . .

It's usually considered very rude to post personal e-mails from other people on public forums. I didn't realize what you were posting was a private message -- I'd urge you to delete it rather than try to score points on an alleged communication from an alleged campaign member.

Just my $0.02 -- take it for what it's worth.

[xultar]

32. I protected his name...I will say though he is a Dean supporter n/t

[jonnyblitz]

40. perhaps I should post the nasty PM I got from a Clark supporter

and blame ALL Clark supporters and use that as THE reason why I would never support Clark! I think not.This is the second thread I have seen you post this in. Think about what you are doing, blaming a whole group for the actions of one. What does that sound like? Geesh...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

43. No, you should inform the admins/mods about it.

The rules apply to the PM function the same as regular postings.

[mikehiggins]

39. Here's why some of us are shocked at the Dean campaign

"unlike those other candidates, this election for him --Dean-- is about more than just his personal political future."

What we don't understand is why people in the Dean camp believe that.

A lot of confusion and distrust could be cleared up if you, or anyone, could explain why they think Dean is not simply an old-fashioned politician who has hit on a new gimmick to get ahead.

Asserting that our candidate, whoever he might be, is no better is not answering the question. What concerns so many of the "old guard" in the Democratic Party is that they have known this man for well over a decade and what you see with Howard Dean is NOT what you get.

Is there some reason to believe is IS what you want him to be that we are missing? Frankly, I've been involved in politics since I was in high school and I don't see it.

What do you see in this man that his past record backs up?

(edited to correct an editing error. I used brackets around Dean's name that eliminated the rest of that quote for some reason. A mystery of HTML I suppose)

[FubarFly]

45. Do you think Dean's grassroots support is just another

gimmick? That would explain a lot.

Before I was a Dean supporter, I looked at Dean's record, (as well as the other candidates), with clear eyes. What I saw is that Dean actions were always in what he thought were in the best interests to the people of Vermont. Dean expanded healthcare, brought in jobs while balancing environmental concerns, balanced budgets, and supported civil rights. He did this even when it meant undertaking great political risk- re: civil unions.

Now don't misunderstand, Dean is absolutely a politician, and like most effective politicians he'll reposition himself accordingly when the need arises. Dean does have a finely attuned sense for self-preservation. I don't deny it. But unlike most politicians Dean won't compromise his core values while doing so. Dean has learned how to bend without breaking. He can do this because he is adept at listening to the concerns of the electorate. Dean knows how to look beyond the polls. He knows that even when people disagree with him, if he maintains his integrity, they'll still respect him. This is an extremely important quality for a leader to have. He developed this partially because of his doctors training, he learned how to tell people difficult things in a frank manner, but mostly due to the fact that since he comes from a smaller state, Dean had to become more intimate with voters in order to survive. Dean is used to speaking at town hall meetings and community functions. He welcomes it, and thrives on it.

When seen from this light, perhaps you can now understand why his grassroots support is in many ways just an extension of his previous public service, and not an anomoly. Dean has an old fashioned, New England inspired belief in democracy. He experienced it first hand in Vermont. What b*sh has done to this country, and the failure of Washington Democrats to oppose it, has appalled him. He expressed his anger, and I found that, more often then not, I agreed with him. If Dean's outrage is false, then mine is as well. And I can assure you, my outrage isn't false.

[shance]

34. Thanks Brian. Great points.

:)

[mikehiggins]

38. THe problem with that for those of us who want such things

is that we think YOUR candidate is the last person in the world to back if you really wanted those results.

Look at his record before this campaign honestly, rather than get into a whole bunch of Clark said this, Kerry said this, Gephardt said this, Kuchinich DIDN'T say this. Just look this stuff up.

Just see if you can find positive information in his history as Governor of Vermont to support the idea that he will push for stuff like that.

"Yeah, but your candidate..." isn't the point.

Can Dean really be trusted more than any other politician? Go back and look and see why so many of us don't believe so.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

42. Great post (n/t)

[quaker bill]

44. If the only way to win as a Democrat

is to govern as a Republican, then we need to hang up our cletes and go home.

As far as the critics are concerned, I agree with Will Pitt, we should send them mirrors so they can better see the cause of their own poll standings.