Hillary supporters: Honestly?

[BL611]

Do you really believe that this outrage is legitimate? Do you really think that those mailers are somehow a legitimate gripe when Hillary's abortion mailer was of far more dubious factuality?

I do not want to start a flame war. I am sincerely asking the question because maybe I'm missing something...

[mudesi]

1. It's just another desperate play

Clinton is going to sling as much mud as possible in the next 10 days.

[PassingFair]

18. She has to do SOMETHING....

Nothing plays like negativity.

It will not help her, but it is all she
can do at this point.

[sandnsea]

2. The facts in Obama's mailer

Everything he said was true. Newsday recanted their story, but they did originally print that they thought she considered NAFTA to be a boon to the economy. Otherwise, there's nothing false in his mailer anyway.

http://thepage.time.com/saturday-obama-campaign-release/

[liberalnurse]

3. There were thousands of people in Ohio today who

agree with Hillary! Huge round of applause! Ohio is hurting and Obama lies must stop. We deserve the straight-up truth! Enough with his games.

[BL611]

5. This is not an answer to my question

That her supporters cheered her at a rally is not relevant. Are you saying that Hillary has stuck with the straight up truth? The abortion mailer? The fairy tale of his war opposition? Again this strikes me a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

[VolcanoJen]

11. Obama will address over 30,000 people across the state on Monday.

C'mon libnurse. You know this. :-)

[babylonsister]

4. She has her own mailers going out, and they are hideous:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4729128

[maddiejoan]

6. I think Hillary has a case

and I think Obama's mailers hurt a core principle of the Democratic Party.

I also think Hillary's mailers on Obama's record regarding pro-choice were factual, despite the fact that Obama had to trot out a PP long time supporter of his to back up his dubious record.

[scheming daemons]

8. He has a 100% record with PP....

...keep lying.

[cali]

13. false. In NH Planned Parenthood of New England and NARAL

both sent letters to Hillary asking her to desist. Obama has no personal relationship with either of those groups. I, on the other hand, know the Director of the VT branch of PPNE, and they were distressed by those flyers.

[maddiejoan]

15. False on you

Obama's original support on his 'present' votes came from the CEO of Chicago Planned Parenthood.

Steve Trombley.

Disagreeing with him vehemently was President of Illinois NOW, Bonnie Grabenhofer.

[cali]

19. nope

I live in Vermont, dear. You live in Mississipi. I think I know a bit more about what happened a hop skip and a jump away from than you do. I'm talking about what happened in NH.

[maddiejoan]

22. I live in Brooklyn, New York --dear

and half my family lives in Springfield, Mass --dear.

[cali]

25. my deepest apologies, Madam

and so what if your relatives live in Springfield. YOU don't. I live 30 minutes from the NH border, Madam Maddie, and the media I got during the NH primary season is local NH/VT media. You clearly have no idea what went on here. I do.

[BL611]

20. So if there are two different pro choice groups

and one advocates to do one thing, and the other advocates something else, how can that be equated with not being pro choice?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

27. Both pro-choice groups, NARAL and PP, advocated for what Obama did

NOW is pro-choice but it's not their primary mission.

[Jai4WKC08]

28. Let the voters decide

But first, provide them with ALL the information.

Hillary cited Illinois NOW's position, to include the specific issues where Obama voted "present" (which were available on the organization's website). Fwiw, she never said he wasn't "pro-choice." She said he didn't stand up for choice when it was needed, because he voted present on a number of choice and other women's rights issues.

Obama simply called Hillary a liar, albeit thru a surrogate, and has never personally answered for the specific non-votes. As a result, I have heard many Obama supporters say that she lied about the issue, but that of course is not true. It is however typical of his tactics.

[maddiejoan]

29. She never said he wasn't pro-choice

she reported on his 'present' votes. These are FACTS.

she is being called a liar simply because Obama's has some people who wish to extend him benefit of the doubt.

One can disagree with the why of the 'present' votes --one can't call them lies however.

[Baconfoot]

21. I agree.WHICH of a cause's lobbyists gets your vote doesn't determine the vote's right or wrongness.

There are political situations in which you want to abstain. For example, when your faction is on ONE side and YOU stand on another side of an issue. You might abstain then. That lets you register in some official way your disagreement with your side, while not undermining your side's agenda and alienating you from your allies.

You might abstain if you have a conflict of interest. You might abstain if you think your constituents have no stake in the Bill. (e.g. a bill honoring somebody for something or naming something)

But from a strategy standpoint, you shouldn't abstain from votes on what will be bad law, even if the bill is going to pass. "Protest abstentions" typically accomplish nothing. If you need a symbolic gesture, have your people vote no and then do a symbolic walk-out, but only if you have enough people to make the gesture worthwhile.

On Edit:
Voting present lowers the number of yeas needed for something to pass and so typically effectively helps the yeas. If your heart is truly pro-choice, you should never abstain from an anti-choice bill unless somehow you've got a conflict of interest or are a Republican.

[jlake]

7. Yes, I think that the outrage is real. How DARE Obama act like a RW Repub.

[scheming daemons]

9. No emotion that Hillary ever shows is "real".....

...

[jlake]

12. No words that Obama ever uses are genuine and meaningful.

[mkultra]

14. yeah, like when he

signed the document pledging to unseat the MI and LF delegates then changed position later.

oh wait.. you lose.

[shadowknows69]

24. and my dad can beat up your dad

[mtnsnake]

10. I think the Goddess of Peace was left with no choice but to bust some heads

She had to take the gloves off and go for it. It's not her fault that Obama gave her the perfect excuse. Plus, if you or I were in her position, I think we'd both go a little bit postal at this point in time. It's not like everything's been going her way as of late. Time will tell if it has good results or not.

[mkultra]

16. i say keep it coming

It proves what gutter trash she really is and it hasnt helped one bit.


never interrupt your opponet when they are making a mistake.

[Arkana]

23. I don't know if I'd use the phrase "gutter trash".

[BL611]

17. I don't know if someone

doing something which you yourself are also clearly guilty of (and in a far more egregious way), is "the perfect excuse." Is it the only card she has left in her hand? Maybe, but it seems disingenuous, which is really one of her main problems. I'm sorry, but I don't want a President who goes postal when things don't go their way. If this is the best she can do, I think it may be time for her to exit...

[Jai4WKC08]

26. Looks like mostly Obamans in this thread

But whatever... Your use of the word "outrage" is sort of a strawman. I don't recall Hillary saying she was "outraged."

But that said, yes, I think her comments were fair, given the hypocrisy of Obama's claiming to want some "new" kind of politics when he's really just another politician. Samo samo. It's more than "a legitimate gripe."

Also fwiw, there was nothing untrue about the abortion mailer that Hillary sent out. Obama did fail to stand up for the right to choose. He may have done it for a reason, but it was a chickenshit reason. And even if Planned Parenthood gave him a pass, the Illinois state NOW opposed his non-votes.