Sorry, but absolutely no Democrat gets my vote

[cboy4]

by default, like some people around here think should happen.

Since my candidates are out (Kucinich/Edwards), I'm left with two choices.

Will I vote for the nominee in November? Oh, probably. I'm sure I probably will.

But..................is it a guarantee? Oh hell no.

Not sure about anyone else, but Democratic politicians have to earn my vote instead of taking it for granted.

I've been thrown under the proverbial issue bus too many times to feel otherwise.

And I know there are many others who feel the same way, ha.


ON EDIT: typo

[Blue-Jay]

1. Fine. Write yourself in.

That should effectively convey your outrage to the world.

Let me know how that works, OK?

[Truth2Tell]

4. Does it make you angry

that he won't OBEY? Won't get in line? Tell me about where these feelings of yours come from... authoritarianism fascinates me.

[Blue-Jay]

6. Angry? No.

The only angry post in this thread is the original one.

[slick8790]

7. You really are a smug asshole.

Some things are more important than getting exactly what you want. Like say, defeating warmonger McCain.

[cboy4]

12. Smug asshole? lol

pot meet kettle.

[rpannier]

13. Pot meets kettle

Truth2tell and cboy4

[slick8790]

20. Uh huh.

I'm the smug one. If I truly thought my opinion was more important the collective consensus of all democrats I'd be writing in John Edwards. But it isn't, so I'm not. Shrink your ego for one second and think, eh?

[jaybeat]

134. "the collective consensus of all democrats"???

:wtf:

For starters, a *lot* of Obama's votes in Democratic primaries have come from *non*-Democratic voters. You think they're going to line up for his smoke-and-mirrors show in the fall? Good luck with that.

I, too, will hold my nose and vote for BO in the fall, but then I fully expect to see him sell me and every other progressive down the river to his corporate masters, reaching across the aisle so they can cut *my* hand off.

That's of course if the Repukes some how fail to swift-boat him back to a grass hut in Kenya. Which I doubt.

[SammyWinstonJack]

147. !

:thumbsup: Three years from now the delusional obama supporters will be whining their collective heads off when he proves to have been just the opposite of "hope and change". That's if like you said, he manages to survive the swift boat attacks headed his way, which I also doubt he will.

[jaybeat]

157. Thank you.

Another Edwards supporter who doesn't like the taste of the Obama Kool-Aid.

[bellasgrams]

23. I sure don't want Bo or McCain. At least with McCain we have

a pretty good idea of what he'll do. BO is an unknown. I don't like unknown in the position of President of the US, that bases his running on hope and change but doesn't tell us how or what is going to change. He is so full of himself that he will not 2nd guess himself, he's to much like Bush. Everytime I think of him I picture this guy prancing around the stage cocky and arrogant. He has hollered race everytime he's called out on something, but continues his attacks on Hillary.

[slick8790]

27. You are ridiculous.

I'll take someone who has a consistant liberal record in both the U.S senate and IL state senate over a crazy anti-choice pro-corporate warmonger. Do you listen to yourself talk, ffs?

[bellasgrams]

161. According to the news in Chicago, he didn't do anything for his

district while there. In the US Senate he has done little. Any important issues he avoided by voting present. When he did vote he voted the same as Hillary. I simply do not like the man. I've always felt he wasn't a true American, then his wife made her very stupid remark about the country and that justified my feelings. He spent many of his formative years outside the US, who knows how he really feels. Then it was noted that his all black Christian Church honored Louis Farrakhan. Every news article I have read about him has been BAD>BAD,BAD. And why wouldn't a man running for President attend a open Church with all races? Presidents are supposed to represent all the people. Then there's his rhetoric. NOPE. I can't support a person with that many flaws.

[slick8790]

167. You have no idea what you're talking about.

You cannot vote present in the U.S senate. If you're gonna parrot talking points, get them right.

Oh, and you don't think he's a "true american". You fucking twit. I cannot stand people like you who somehow believe there's some set of rules of what makes you a "true american".

I almost don't believe you're real. You're all the worst parts of the republicans. All the subtle racism. Hell, It's not even subtle. His church is "open". No one is being excluded because of race. He's a member of the united church of christ. while he does attend a predominately black congregation, how is that his fault? I don't believe it.

And maybe you should read some different articles if everything has been "BAD>BAD,BAD.". He will be our next president, and quite frankly, if you don't wanna vote for him if he's the nominee, I don't give a rats ass. He doesn't need idiots like you.

[CarbonDate]

131. You seem to have a vested interest....

...in casting doubt on the Democratic front-runner. Why would that be, hmmm?

[Truth2Tell]

51. I didn't say I wouldn't vote for the Dem.

I'm just defending someone struggling with their conscience about it - because I can understand the dilemma. Can you?

[slick8790]

69. No. I can't.

Because the only realistic choices are a Dem, or more war, less jobs, and less freedom. It's that simple.

[BigDDem]

137. "You really are a smug asshole."

Yet another example of the new politics of hope and change.
Everybody on board!!

[Horse with no Name]

141. Would you feel the same way if you had to swallow your hatred for Hillary

and cast a vote for her?
It's pretty damned easy when you are entrenched in a candidate to sling monkey poo when others are not.

[slick8790]

160. I don't hate Hillary.

I don't think she'd be a very good president, but she wouldn't be a bad president either, like McCain would. I'd vote for her in a second, nose unheld if it came to it.

[high density]

8. Well I was under the impression that we were all basically working for the same thing here

Even though we may be all outraged on behalf of our candidates, I think ultimately most of us are going to "get in line" and vote for the Democratic ticket in November.

[Truth2Tell]

49. Most will, including me.

But it's lame to attack people struggling with that decision. It demonstrates that the attacker doesn't understand the moral dilemma that progressives face in our corrupt political system. Hmmm, I wonder why?

[LWolf]

82. Are we?

I'm working for the end of war as an instrument of foreign policy, and the end of empire.

I'm working for universal, single-payer, NOT-FOR-PROFIT Health CARE.

I'm working for the repeal of NAFTA/CAFTA and NCLB.

I'm working for a new fairness doctrine.

For hand-counted paper ballots.

For 100% public financing of elections, and for IRV.

Is that what you are working for, or is your primary goal to elect Democrats?

Which of the above will either of the two Democratic candidates left standing work to achieve?

[high density]

91. Small steps

I know some of DU hasn't noticed but we're about 70+ years removed now from the New Deal.

[LWolf]

124. I'm not sure what that has to do with my point.

Are we all working for the same things? Will the candidates pushed so fervently today in GDP act to accomplish any of those things I listed?

I don't think so. "Small steps?" Sure. If the people in office truly want to move forward on those issues, then small steps will get us there.

The "small steps" I believe appropriate are to elect as many TRULY progressive people as possible to Congress. Not those who are viewed as progressive or liberal by a blinded majority, but those who will actually move progressive issues forward.

As a voter, those are the "small steps" I'm taking. I'll reserve my support for candidates I view as truly progressive.

Unfortunately, that doesn't include Obama, nor does it include HRC.

Which is why I question whether or not we are all working towards the same goals at DU.

Many here don't care HOW moderate/corporate/conservative/new dem/3rd way a candidate is, as long as he or she is running as a Democrat.

These people would elect a majority of Democrats who DON'T work to move issues forward.

[eridani]

99. Those things can only happen with well-organized pressure from the bottom

The "well-organized" part is critical. Just about any Dem is far more susceptible to being pushed on those issues than any Repub.

Back in the 70s, too many leftists (like me) gave up on electoral politics, even as a few of us like Kucinich, Wellstone and Sanders were running for and winning local offices. Had there been more, then there would be more progressive candidates coming out of the pipeline going for national office now. There aren't, so I'm just trying to deal with it by making up for lost time.

[LWolf]

125. That's true.

Applying pressure from the bottom: outside of writing letters, and being picky about where to bestow donations, time, and support, the best pressure I can personally bring to bear is with my vote.

Of course, if an effort to deny centrist/corporate/3rd way dems a win is not supported by rank and file voters, it goes nowhere.

Which is why I say that we are NOT all working for the same things.

Meanwhile, there are other things I CAN do from the bottom. I can work really hard to replace my republican senator with a progressive senator. Gordon Smith is vulnerable this year, so that's exactly what I'll be doing. There are 2 good progressive candidate and one marginally ok moderate running in my May 20th primary for the nomination to oppose him.

I can also work to replace my conservative republican rep in the House this year, but that's a less likely scenario. Still, it's more worthy of my efforts than working to elect a non-progressive Democrat to the WH. If a challenger steps forth, I'll be there.

[bellasgrams]

162. I don't think we'll ever see all hand counted paper ballots again

and even if we did that doesn't mean it would be honest.

[LWolf]

166. So what your saying, lol,

is that we aren't all working for the same things.

I'm guessing you don't think either candidate would support HR 6200, introduced in 2006, if it ever made it out of the House.

[RainDog]

16. not only are you waaaay out of bounds and wrong...

[Truth2Tell]

43. I get tired of the attacks on people

who won't settle for the lessor of evils. Pardon me.

Personally, I'll vote for saint Obama with my nose plugged. But I understand the view of those who won't. I share the values of those people. I also understand that our Party and our democracy have been hijacked by corporate interests. I understand that the options our corrupt media leaves us with are all lame on real change. I know where they are coming from and share their pain. My differences are tactical - I choose to vote Dem.

I have plenty of respect for people who's values I share, but with whom I disagree on tactics. I have less respect for people who's political coalition I'm a part of, but who DON'T share my values. I'll take ten Nader voters any day over one DLCer.

The need to enforce some sort of Party uber alles lock-step on DU is pathological, and I'll call it like I see it.

[cboy4]

67. Perfect post Truth2Tell

:thumbsup:

:)

[RainDog]

77. wtf?!?

YOU WERE THE ONE WHO ATTACKED BLUE JAY

asking him about his love of authoritarianism... what, if you say it, it's not an attack? Why, if you spit out something like that, do you not expect to get back what you gave?

If you'd read my other posts on this thread, you would know that I'm not for either of the remaining candidates, but I will vote for them b/c I don't live in a perfect world. I don't like the DLC, I used to live overseas and I really favor social democracy and I have been trying to move out of this country.

I understand the views of those who won't, too. And they are really short-sighted. And people who disagree with them are not authoritarians. If you're a progressive, why don't you act like one on this board?

[Blue-Jay]

83. Oh, don't worry about it, my friend.

I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over something as dumb as this thread.

[Truth2Tell]

95. I attacked Blue-Jay BACK, after

he snidely put down CBoy4. He didn't just disagree with him, he made a snarky insult in response to his OP. If all he had done was disagree with him, or made a genuine counter argument, I would've had no issue.

[grantcart]

55. that was my response too.

[rhett o rick]

97. and you sir will vote for the candidate that they pick for you. And feel like you have done your

duty. Well duty it is.

[high density]

2. Well when John McCain gets sworn in

Maybe you can pat yourself on the back.

[rhett o rick]

98. Don't start blaming McCain on us. you want Sen Clinton you got her. And if she can't beat McBush it

aint our fault.

[Skittles]

3. I find both choices unsatisfactory

but I will vote for one because they each are 10,000 times better than ANY REPUKE.

[no name no slogan]

48. THIS

Both are the evil of two lessers, but McCain is just... evil.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

5. Good choice. Take your ball and go home.

I think you need to take a very close look at that graphic at the bottom of your post. Not voting isn't going to accomplish anything.

[madaboutharry]

9. I honestly don't understand

this kind of post. What is the point?

[oldtime dfl_er]

15. That's my question too

I'm sorry but it makes me suspicious.

[cboy4]

26. What's so hard to understand? I said I'm probably going

to vote for the nominee.

However, I need to hear more -- especially from Obama, since I don't trust him regarding the promises he's made about gay people.

That's all.

[Straight Shooter]

10. I would be glad to vote for Hillary.

Obama as nominee gets my vote only because the environment would truly suffer under McCain, unless we could be guaranteed a veto-proof Dem Congress with a spine. LOL. Like that's going to happen in my lifetime.

I no longer have any faith in Obama's ability to nominate a liberal for the Supreme Court. He's a go-along-to-get-along pseudo-Democrat and we'll probably end up with a couple more, maybe four more so-called moderates on the Supreme Court since he likes to appease Republicans, and that will be it for America, adios amigos to justice for all.

You've been thrown under the bus, all right. Modern Saviors got no time for Biblical outcasts. :(

[rpannier]

11. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it...

2000. People who voted for Nader because there was no difference between the two.

No difference between DUH-bya and now Nobel Prize Winner Al Gore.

Yep...Pres Gore would have invaded Iraq, would have spent the entire surplus plus trillions more, etc

You must think Obama is preparing to "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran" too.

[MadMaddie]

14. Well you have a 3rd choice you can vote for Nadar and help

the Republicans win!

America after all is about choices.....it's the aftermath of the choices we make that we have to live with.

How would the Democratic politicians earn your vote? Just curious....

[cboy4]

21. Ask yourself how gay Democrats are treated and then

perhaps you'll have a better understanding.

[MadMaddie]

32. This is a key factor for me I am fortunate I live in the great state

of Wa where we have Domestic benefits and state certification to visit our loved ones at hospitals and make life and death decisions.

You have to admit our Democratic nominees are not perfect (far from it) but they are better than the alternative. Keep in mind if a Democratic President is voted in, history suggests that open Congressional seats will favor the winning party. With a Democratic super majority, Don't ask Don't tell can be removed from the books and equal rights for Gay Americans can be a real possiblity.

With the Republicans expect more hate mongering....

[cboy4]

36. You really think DADT and DOMA are high on the

"to do list?"

I don't.

The first excuse not to deal with them is we're too close to the 2010 midterms and we don't want them to be used as wedge issues.

And then we're going to be too close to the 2012 presidential election, and we don't want them to be used as wedge issues to cost us the White House.

It never ends.

[cloudbase]

17. Back in my days as a union official

I never had a problem with a member who abstained from voting. I figured that at least it wasn't a vote against me. It's the OP's vote to use as s/he sees fit.

I'll say this to the OP, though. I was firmly in the Edwards camp, and neither Obama nor Clinton really grab me, but I'll damn sure vote for our nominee come November.

[skooooo]

18. Guess we won't be seeing ou much around here then. bye

[cboy4]

As tempting as it is to not have to read your posts anymore,

I don't intend on leaving.

I said I'm probably voting for the nominee.

And if something comes up to change my mind, I'd be leaving my ballot blank.

I'm not voting for McCain or Nader.

[Solon]

19. In November, we are going to have a choice between two assholes...

pick one dammit! :)

[cboy4]

30. hahhaha

You go first, then me! :)

[Solon]

35. I'm just going to go in blindfolded, at least then I can't be blamed for my choices.

:)

[Jamastiene]

121. Maybe we could all request butterfly ballots and

then we wouldn't know who we voted for and neither would anyone else. }(

[frogmarch]

22. Fuck that.

Come election time, I'm voting for the Democratic nominee, regardless of who it turns out to be.

Anyone who claims to be a Democrat will do the same, or they can go to hell, as far as I'm concerned.

[Jamastiene]

122. Trust me.

Having no candidate really represent you is like already being in Hell. We are already there, so the threats mean nothing.

[BlueStater]

24. Obama has not proven himself to me as a superior alternative to Clinton

It's going to be very difficult voting for him. I highly resent the way he has run his campaign and has been nominated.

[ShaneGR]

25. This argument is going on 9 years, and you're still wrong....

Eight years ago it was that Gore was the same as Bush. Eight years later we see what Bush has done to the country. The argument is stale and old and frankly I can't believe people still reply to such nonsense. Wait, I just did.

[cboy4]

28. Well if you can't believe it, then that probably makes

you straight and incapable of understanding how gay Democrats get thrown under the bus.

[ShaneGR]

31. Ya, because Bush has been so good to gay people

wait, nm.

[cboy4]

34. Yes, because Dems have been so good to gay people

wait, nm.

[ShaneGR]

38. What, I ask you, have democrats done to harm gay people?

I'm just wondering, what did Clinton do to harm gays from 1992-2000? What have the Democrats done to harm gays in the last 8 years? They weren't in power from 2000-2006 in congress, and I don't remember any anti-gay bills passing the congress in the last two years. By the way, what cities/states have passed pro-gay bills, and who runs those states? Democrats.

It sounds to me like you don't know what you are talking about. And even if your theory that Democrats were against gays were true (it's not) does the gay issue consume your entire life? I know that I don't view my own personal issues as a 100% mandate when I vote. I think about how it affects everyone. But back to your premise that gays aren't helped by Democratic Administrations, you're saying that it doesn't matter if another Republican gets elected. Do you really believe that if McCain were to win, or the Republicans retook Congress, it wouldn't affect you?

Like I said, your thread is an old, stale, and tired argument. It lacks basis in reality and fact, and we are all dumber for having read it.

[cboy4]

39. You are one of the most ignorant people I think I've

ever heard.

What did Clinton do to harm gays?

How about Don't Ask Don't Tell and the Defense of Marriage Act?

Are you kidding me?

And then you have the nerve to write, "does the gay issue consume your entire life?"

Unfucking real.

Go away.

[ShaneGR]

44. You disgust me.....

Honestly, you do, you'd sacrifice all of America to another Republican term because you don't like "Don't Ask Don't Tell." Selfish prick.

[Solon]

47. Hey, dipshit!

Does being straight consume your entire life?

[ShaneGR]

53. Actually, no, it doesn't.....

But I don't advertise myself as a straight person who only cares about straight people and what they think. I think about straight people, white people, black people, gay people, poor people, middle class people, rich people, everyone really. And I vote for who I think is best for everyone, not just my group. That means I vote for the Democrat. Btw, eat shit.

[Solon]

61. See, that's the advantage you have in being a member of the majority...

you have an inherent privilege, while those who don't have to concentrate their efforts.

[Jamastiene]

115. You kiss your mother with that mouth? n/t

[cboy4]

52. I don't know how ugly, selfish homophobic trolls like

yourself are allowed to post here.

Yea, what's wrong with me hating the fact that gay people lose their jobs in the military because of their sexuality.

Ha ShanGR?

You make me want to throw up.

[Solon]

56. Can we play with him for a while?

I'm sure if we hit the right combination, we would end up getting him a pizza delivery.

[ShaneGR]

60. Eh, whatever, I'm done with the both of you....

Perhaps you guys can live with another Republican president, appointing Republicans to the Supreme Court who would love to send you off to camps and make your lives a living hell. I know I can't, but you want to play your little games about the Democrats, go ahead, because you'll just LOVE another four years of Republicans. Have fun!

[Solon]

62. No fair dammit!

C'mon, you can tell us what you REALLY feel about gay folks, you let it slip once, let it out again, c'mon, its in confidence. ;)

[ShaneGR]

57. I'm homophobic? Because of why? What have I said anti-gay?

Anything anti-gay in what I've said other than we're all in it together, not just gay people. I pointed out that the only ones out there voting for gay rights are democrats. But I called you on your selfishness, so I'm a homophobe.

HAHA, whatever your flamebait name is, haha.

[Solon]

59. If you don't know, then you really are clueless...

and this coming from a straight guy.

[cboy4]

63. Here's how homophobic you are. You can't even

recognize your anti-gay filth.

And ShaneHR, there a big difference between fighting for gay rights and DELIVERING.

But I'm glad you admitted you're a homophobe.

It's the first step toward recovery.

[LostinVA]

88. Oh that's who "Ignored" is

I'm glad to see he's on ignore for good reason.

[Solon]

46. "...does the gay issue consume your entire life?"

you better be careful, your homophobia is showing.

[ShaneGR]

50. Omg, I said something about the gay issue, I'm a homophobe!

How ridiculous, I guess if I ever said anything about the race issue I'd be racist. Or if I ever used the word issue and another adverb, I'd be against all those people too. FUCK YOU.

[Solon]

54. Well, it all depends on how you approach it...

If you said to someone "...does the race issue consume your entire life?" I would call you out as a racist piece of shit. No difference to me.

[Jamastiene]

116. Do you think your mother is proud of you?

Ever get the feeling she wishes she had thrown you away and kept the afterbirth? I bet she does, often.

[RainDog]

37. I do sympathize

but, as noted, Bush, etc. want to change the freaking constitution because they so hate gays and don't want them to have civil rights. Obama represents an extremely liberal district. I think the church thing was like a Bob Jones moment for the repukes. A nod that they're there, but they never get what they want, legislatively.

another thing I've learned, btw, is that this govt or any other will rarely change from within without a huge catastrophe. Those changes aren't usually good ones, either. However, grassroots can change things. That was MLK and the freedom riders. That was the demos (who courted the racist south, btw) who pulled America out of the depression - by fiat - by a super majority that was able to impose democratic, not corporocratic economic policies. Even tho FDR courted the racist South, he accomplished more, in terms of a progressive agenda, than any president before or since.

now, the federal govt is controlled by right wing nutcases and the action for civil rights exists at the state and local level. Mass. acknowledges gay marriages... good luck with that in Alabama. States are making environmental legislation b/c we have shitforbrains in the white house.

something to think about.

but again, you'll vote as you choose.

[RainDog]

29. cboy4

my reply upthread wasn't meant for you. it was for the Heather who knows absolutely nothing about Blue Jay. I don't like Hillary, don't want her to be the nominee, dread what will happen as she tries to triangulate... Obama is better, for me, but neither is as progressive as I'd like to see.

however, please think of this

The socialists and the communists and the fledgling republic were not able to hold together for the purpose of defeating the right wing, and so Germany got Hitler.

None of them were totally at fault. But none of them could foresee how horrid the Nazis would be. We've already gotten a taste of born-again friendly fascism... the choice is yours, obviously, but I thought progressives were about working together to lift up each other. No, we're not gonna get democratic socialism anytime in a nation with so many talibornagains, but we can stop the all out warmongering and repair our relations to try diplomacy rather than mass murder and torture... Scalia's court will be a nightmare. He's already on record saying that the problem for western nations is the Enlightenment. And that god's law takes precedent over a nation's laws, or should, in this very nation.

The last 8 years have been the hardest of my entire life. I can't go on with the neocons in power without...thorazine or something. I know the outrage, but all my life I have voted for the "lesser of two evils" I'm not happy about that, but until the talibornagains grow some brains, that seems to be the American demographic.

which is also why I try to find a job in some other country every week.

[cboy4]

33. Yes, all good points, In the end, I'm most likely going to

vote for Obama in the GE even though I don't trust him.

I'm just tired of Democrats ignoring gay Democrats.

Oh they talk a good game, but they always seem to keep the bases loaded when it comes to equal human rights.

[Hippo_Tron]

109. Society has progressed at least somewhat since Bill Clinton was in office

And since Clinton left office we haven't controlled the White House and both houses of congress.

I fully expect the next Democratic Presdient to pass the ENDA and repeal Don't Ask Don't Tell and maybe DOMA. Will they support gay marriage? Probably not. But maybe in another 10 years it will be considered viable.

[xchrom]

40. donnie mcklurkin is going to make it difficult for me this year.

[cboy4]

41. Don't worry. Obama will keep all of his other gay-related

promises. :sarcasm:

[xchrom]

65. ok -- here's what will get me -- obama

comes through and{i can't fathom how} pushes through some ''pro-gay'' program, agenda, law -- can you imagine the hooplah?

it won't be gay folk who have gotten it for themselves -- all our hard work and persistance -- it will be about obama.
the ''hope'' messiah.

any way --

[cboy4]

70. Yuppppp

So true.

Now get the hell back under the bus dude.

[xchrom]

79. i keep forgetting my place.

getting my gay ass back under the bus.

[Redstone]

42. You disappoint me. I thought you were more intelligent than that.

Redstone

[cboy4]

58. Sorry to disappoint you Redstone. Actually I am intelligent,

but you're not in a position to understand why tough love is sometimes in order when one is fighting for civil liberties.

[Redstone]

80. "Tough Love" equaling refusing to vote for a non-Republican candidate equals a vote

for the Republican candidate. Emotions are no substitute for numbers.

Redstone

[cboy4]

84. Your response is exactly what I wish more Democrats

at the top would understand.

"...refusing to vote equals a vote for the Republican candidate."

You'd think they'd act.

But in reality, they're terrified gay civil liberty issues will be used as wedge issues.

The bottom line is this election with McCain is going to be close, and Democrats need every vote they can scrape up.

[Creideiki]

117. No it doesn't.

Maybe I'll vote for Mighty Cthulhu--the Compassionate Choice.

But I know I'll be putting in a lot of time and effort at the Congressional level to get sane people with spines in. Maybe they can minimize the damage Obama will let happen for the sake of triangulation.

[AlCzervik]

45. blue states stay blue because we vote.

[Individualist]

64. Why not write-in Kucinich or Edwards?

Although there may be some, I'm not aware of any states that prohibit a write-in vote.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

66. Do You Think That McCain Earned Half Of Your Vote? Don't Forget: Not Voting = 1/2 A Vote For McCain

You say the Dems have to earn your vote, yet if you don't vote that means you cast half of a vote for McCain. So tell me: Did McCain earn that half a vote from you?

[cboy4]

73. I didn't say I wasn't going to vote OMC. I said the

Democrats have to earn my vote.

I also said I was probably going to vote for Obama.

So the McCain question is not applicable.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

75. Obviously, I Was Addressing The Part Of You Saying You Might Not.

I'm glad you are likely going to vote, but there really shouldn't be any doubt in your mind that you will. I was just trying to give yourself something to alternatively think about during times when you feel like maybe you shouldn't vote. You said the Dems have to earn it. But just remember if you don't vote at all, you're giving half of a vote to McCain. Don't forget that, when the time comes.

And yes, that's applicable. You left room open to the potential of your not voting. There shouldn't be room in my opinion. It should be a firm resolve. Because it wasn't, I felt the need to remind you of the realities around giving half a vote to McCain. It's called keeping things in perspective.

[cboy4]

81. Oh, I know my vote is important in what will most likely

be a very close race.

And I know by not voting, it would help McCain....and I don't want to help any Republican.

So that's why I'm probably voting for Obama.

But you have to understand things from my point of view (and others) as to why I "left room open."

There never seems to be a convenient time for Democrats to address gay-related civil liberty issues.

Talk is cheap.

It's either too close to the midterms or it's too close to the presidential election, and we can't risk Don't Ask Don't Tell, etc., being used as a wedge issue.

It's a vicious cycle OMC and it has to stop.

If you were a minority, I bet you'd understand.

[WillyT]

68. It's Been Nice Knowing You...

:hi:

[cboy4]

71. Another classy Obama supporter trying to reach out.

:hi:

[Solon]

72. I find the responses to this thread enlightening, Gods forbid a candidate has to EARN votes...

no, they are OWED our votes for being slightly less sucky than the opposition. And people call this a Democracy? Pfft.

[Forkboy]

74. Don't you cause enough trouble in the sports forum?

;)

[cboy4]

76. lol. I just posted something there that will generate a lot of

love! :bounce:

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cboy4]

86. It'll be challenging getting any sleep tonight knowing a

homophobe called me a troll. lol

How will I go on?

[AlCzervik]

87. fuck that noise, you are not a troll.

[cboy4]

90. .....

:pals:

[flvegan]

85. cboy4, I'm with you on this I think.

I don't rubberstamp, either.

Folks that say one betrays "the party" by making a demand or raising a question isn't betraying the party. It's giving the party a spine. The DNC/DLC is counting on us to buy in, grab that name recognition and get in line without thinking.

Yeah, they gotta earn it. I hate to say it, and I may be alone here, but neither of our candidates has done that.

Signal Nader-baiters...now.

[cboy4]

89. Thanks bud. I especially like the part of your comment

about giving the party a spine.

If only DK was in charge. :(

[flvegan]

92. How dare we Dems

mobilize for:

Impeachment;

gay marriage rights;

an end to the war;

repealing the Patriot Act.

Etc, etc.

How dare we. Yet, when we do, and refuse to settle for what's doled out at the shit buffet, we're singled out. DK has gotten every dime of my political dollars. I refuse to give to anyone else.

If only. Yeah, if only.

[RBInMaine]

93. If you're not interested in supporting Dems, you need to leave.

This is a Dem site. This is politics. It's tough business. If you don't or won't support Dems, you are violating the rules and you need to leave the site.

[Sebass1271]

94. I AGREE WITH SHANEGR

I am quite insulted that your only concern is the gay issue. I am straight, however, my brother is gay. He is first and foremost a Democrat, a patriot and loves this country. He cares deeply about people in general, NOT ONLY ABOUT HIMSELF. Yes, he would love for the Democratic party to be more forceful, aggressive and give gays the rights they deserve, but he also understands, that for this to happen we need time. Time in electing the right Democratic leaders (b/c they are, after all, the only party that can give him, me and you change) time to change the perception in people about gays. Time to change people's minds in accepting that yes, you are human too and deserves the same benefits and rights as the rest of us. It is happening, little by little, some BLUE states have already started taking small steps. I strongly emphasize the BLUE on my last sentence and obviously, if these BLUE states have taken small steps toward given gays more opportunities, it is not by accident. It is b/c of the Democrats that have been elected.

and frankly, I do believe you are selfish and your childish reaction shows that your only defense is by calling people homophobic. You don't make and build change by turning the people that can help you accomplish what you want and you truly deserve by doing this. You sound defensive and irrational. It is also sad to see other members running to your defense b/c they didn't want to be tagged as homophobic. It is quite clear you totally disregarded the member's message and turned it around.

what now, Am I a homophobic too?

:eyes:

[cboy4]

100. You have a lot of nerve, as a straight person, lecturing me

about how I should feel.

You're insulted?!? You!!?? :wtf:

Listen, it's up to your gay brother if he wants to allow people to walk all over him.

I don't lay down and cower.

And Sebass1271, the people who are "running to my defense" are doing so because they are decent human beings who are opposed to homophobia.

You should take notes.

[Seabiscuit]

102. This straight guy is with you all the way, cboy4! KUDOS!

[cboy4]

105. Thanks so much Seabiscuit....and I'm not just writing

this because I needed to come up with some sort of response to your post.

I honestly mean it. :)

[tabasco]

164. You don't give a shit about soldiers' lives or the hundreds of thousands of civilian lives lost

in the Iraq war. All you can do is pout and cry "boohoohoo - - what about MEEEEE!"

You are PATHETIC.

[Sebass1271]

165. my gay

brother doesn't allow anyone to walk over him. If that is what you conveniently understood and your response, then, it is obviously not worth my time to try to explain what some of us have been trying to tell you. Your too consume in being yourself.

Do as you please in NOvember and let's see what happens to your civil liberties.
Nough said

[Creideiki]

118. What if we support real Democrats?

You know. Actual progressives?

[LWolf]

126. Wrong:

<snip>

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole.

There is nothing wrong with a Democrat holding his own party accountable. Democrats who won't do so ARE the problem.

Holding the party accountable to the voters is what will keep the party relevant, keep the party healthy, keep the party honest, and help retain some semblance of democratic principles within the Democratic Party.

Holding the party accountable makes the party stronger and more viable.

Those Democrats not willing to do so are the greatest threat to the party, imo.

[readmoreoften]

96. I'm with ya, cboy

Edwards and DK are out and I'm on my way too. This election will be my last hurrah with the D party. But who cares, right? I'm 37. It's time for a new generation to take over. It's their world now. Statistics show, I'll be dead in 40 years.

[cboy4]

103. Well I care readmoreoften....but apparently

the Democratic Party is ambivalent about our support

It's more concerned about equal rights being used as wedge issues than it is about doing the right thing.

Sad.

[babylonsister]

101. I wish I could share my faith for my candidate. But you won't or

choose not to see it, and I know why. Nevertheless,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x97579

[cboy4]

110. Babylonsister, I do not know what you point is about

"won't or choose not to see it?"

I'm happy to explain my feelings further, because I deeply respect you as a smart, decent member of the DU community.

[babylonsister]

113. I guess what I feel is...

that as horrified as the gay community is/was because Obama isn't perfect, he's more perfect to me than any candidate I've seen in my life. There, I've said it.

But dammit, if we can, for just a moment, get over the outrage the gay community feels and vote for change instead of status quo, then vote for the change this man is making me feel, it might all work out okay.

[cboy4]

156. Well I said I'm sure I probably will be voting for Obama.

But I'm bracing myself for being punched in the gut figuratively.

I know you're smart enough to understand that gay people are worn out from hearing about getting over stuff.

[Occam Bandage]

104. That argument was fucking retarded in 2000. 90,000 FL dumbasses gave us Bush.

It's just as stupid now.

[cboy4]

107. Occam, you just posted an incomplete thought.

Which argument is "fucking retarded?"

And who are the "90,000 dumbasses" you're talking about that gave us Bush.

I'm happy to respond to people who disagree with me, but I have to know what your point is.

[Occam Bandage]

112. Thought:

Your argument: It is an effective strategy to withhold your vote from the major-party candidate closest to you on the issues, in hopes of prodding them to become closer to you on issues.

Problem with argument: It does not work. It only makes you appear fickle and not worth courting. Moreover, those to the left of the Democratic party are dwarfed by those who are right of the party but lean D over R. If they start out with your vote and support, they'll attempt to keep it, because you'll be very valuable as an activist and volunteer. If they start out with neither your vote or your support, it is extraordinarily unlikely you will become a volunteer, and so you're only worth your vote. And your vote, frankly, is easier to make it up on the right than on the left.

Example of problem with argument: Nader fringe is fickle. Therefore, Dem party generally ignores the Nader fringe. Religious Right always votes for the Republican, no matter what, even if it's John McCain and they hate him. Religious Right wields enormous power in the Republican party, due to their activist/volunteer base.

90,000 Dumbasses: The Nader vote in 2000. Had only 1% of them--one out of one hundred--gone to Gore, and the rest stayed home, Gore would have become President.

[cboy4]

154. Oh my vote is worth courting.

Are you saying that Democrats are so proficient at winning presidential elections that they don't need every single vote they can get?

You've got to be kidding me.

[dicknbush]

108. Yeah well where were all these Voters for Obama in 2004? Why didn't they come out and support JK

Our country would be in much better shape right now if this crowd had done their duty in 2004 and supported John Kerrey. We could have beaten Bush then so I have no suport for these johnny come latelys who want to play American Idol Presidential Race and get to PHone in a vote completely disgusting.

[Occam Bandage]

111. Because they preferred Bush, or preferred sitting at home. A vote is a vote, whether it's

given by a lefty activist or a stay-at-home mom who only gives a fleeting thought to politics.

[dicknbush]

106. Well my theme for the night is this..The repubs spent twenty years throwing knives at Clintons..

But it took the left wing of the democratic party to push one of those knives through the heart of Hillary Clinton. So congratulations pukes you have completed the dirty work that republicans could never do and they could never have done it without your very enthusiatic help! Dick morris is a very happy republican tonight I am sure and he thanks you for you very excellent work of destroying a very good woman and trying to destroy he family as well. You really are a very sad bunch who are in for a very rude awakening. Oh and I will never vote for Democratic presidential candidates again starting with the faker Obama. I will vote local it really is all that matters in the end.

[Swamp Rat]

114. Vote for any Dem.... Reason #1:

[Creideiki]

119. And if Obama "engages in dialog" with Republicans to choose a nominee

that they'll find acceptable, what then?

So we'll go with no health care, no improvement to education, advancement on civil rights only if the majority of Americans are comfortable with it. Hooray for us.

The only good news is that Obama seems unwilling to go against real Democrats, so if we can get more people with some moral courage in Congress, maybe a few with some vision in key roles, then we stand a chance of moving forward.

[Swamp Rat]

123. And if Hillary "sells her soul" to Satan...

I don't engage in such hypotheticals.

[Jamastiene]

120. I applaud you for expressing your feelings so openly.

Many of us are feeling pretty disappointed as well. It's back to the "lesser of the (insert number here) evils" this time around. It's so sad. Kucinich would have been great. Edwards would have been great. Hillary has her good points and her bad ones. Obama openly courted ex-gay hate mongers and never apologized.

It's a shit campaign season. It's a shitty off-year altogether. Our party has failed us miserably this time around...once again. It's a shame.

I applaud your honesty.

[mmonk]

127. I agree they should earn our votes.

However, if a Republican wins, they will seek more suppression of civil rights whereas, a Democratic president won't in most instances. There are no guarantees in life.

[From The Left]

128. McCain Needs Supporters

Bump

[goldcanyonaz]

129. I respect your decision. It's your vote and no one can tell you how to use it.

[MilesColtrane]

130. I will only vote for the candidate who gives me a pony.

[cboy4]

139. That's okay. Mock the civil liberties of gay people.

I expect that from *some* Obama supporters.

[MilesColtrane]

158. I posted this after reading your OP which doesn't state the reason you feel like...

...not voting for one of the Democratic presidential candidates in the general election.

I didn't know then what particular issue you had with either candidate, so no, I'm not mocking the civil liberties of gay people.

I'm mocking the idea that there can be ANY reason not to actively prevent McCain from becoming president by casting a vote for the Democratic nominee.

[MaineDem]

132. Thank you for the Supreme Court we get under a President McCain

I'm sorry but if one is a Democrat they belong to that Party for a reason. The probable next three Supreme Court justices will be nominated by the next President. That should be reason enough for any Democrat to have no qualms about voting for our candidate. The need to be persuaded is ludicrous and attention grabbing.

[WilliamPitt]

133. Thanks for the draft pick

and enjoy the better economy.

[Buzz Clik]

135. I actually like Obama.

:shrug:

[Political Heretic]

136. You have a very stupid way of looking at things, sorry for my frankness

No democrat gets my vote "by default" either.

Big deal.

However, this year we know some things. We know that there are three thousand nine hundred and seventy two dead American men and women - boys and girls really - and the Republican nominee who staunchly refuses to acknowledge the criminality of this "war," refuses to bring our children home to their families, and who promises to kill more of them.

This year, Democratic candidates earned my vote by simply showing up. Ranting about the "earn my vote" bullshit is just ego. The are real issues like allowing more American children to be murdered where there is a clear and obvious difference between either democratic candidate and the republican nominee. Setting aside the fact that the lives of real Americans will be better under either democratic candidate than under John McCain, the differences between the republican nominee and both democratic candidates on the murder of american children - which is what it is when you send people to be killed in an illegal war based on lies and disinformation - is enough.

It's not about YOU and your rights or your principled stance, blah blah blah. It's about doing what's best for the country period.

These year, the democratic candidates "earned" the right of reasonable, responsible Americans when they announced their candidacy for President.

[cboy4]

149. See, the fact that you don't give a shit about my civil

rights makes me even more comfortable with my position.

"It's not about YOU and your rights or your principled stance"

And I'm the selfish one?

I said I was probably going to end up supporting Obama.

But if he embraces yet another homophobe between now and November, all bets are off.

[Political Heretic]

159. The fact that you don't give a shit about the lives of american soliders does the same for mine.

"It's not about YOU and your rights or your principled stance"

And I'm the selfish one?


Yeah, you're the selfish one if you can't put the interests of the country above a bunch of me-rhetoric.

[Meshuga]

138. Republicans smile and high five each other

when they see this kind of attitude. I wish conservatives had a similar attitude as yours and cast a protest vote against McCain. But unfortunately they are clever enough and in the end they will vote for McCain.

[cboy4]

144. Well first of all, I didn't say I'd be casting a protest vote.

I said I will probably end up supporting the nominee.

But if Obama embraces another homophobe on the tour, I won't be voting for him.

I'll leave my ballot blank, a vote for my local and state Democrats.

[ScreamingMeemie]

140. You don't stand alone in that cboy...

All my money went to a local state rep this time. My vote is staying at home under the covers with me. My daughter is pissed at me but I cannot vote for a farce anymore.

[cboy4]

142. I love you Mrs. G

:hug:

[Jersey Devil]

143. Yes, Dems must genuflect to you, kiss your ring (and your ass)

So don't vote for the Dems but when you stick your hand out to shake hands with the Republicans who rule don't be surpised if they take a dump in it.

[cboy4]

145. You'd be a perfect reporter for FOX News....taking everything

I said out of context and spinning it.

Good job! :thumbsup:

[Jersey Devil]

148. I'm tired of the "wash my feet I'm Jeezus H Christ" Democrats

Democrats have to walk on water to earn your vote but if Republicans shit in your hat you offer a mild protest.

[cboy4]

151. "Reporting live in Washington, Jersey Devil, FOX News.

Now back to you Bill in the studio."

Again, I said I'm probably voting for Obama.

But I don't mind making people who need my vote sweat in order to do the right thing.

[Jersey Devil]

152. So what sort of acrobatics do Dems have to do to "earn" your vote?

They guys you have now have eviscerated the Bill of Rights, tortured people for 6 years with no due process, sent American kids to be slaughtered in a war based on lies, totally fucked up the economy maybe for a generation and so on and so on.

Just what the fuck does a Democrat have to do for you to "earn" your precious vote? Turn water into wine?

[cboy4]

153. I said I'm sure I probably will vote for Obama.,,,what more

do you want from me?

The point of this thread is that Democrats need to stop taking votes for granted because they're slightly better than the other guy (Republicans) when it comes to civil liberties.

Obama is lucky I'm even considering him after what he did with McClurkin.

You can't even begin to understand how hurtful that was.

[Jersey Devil]

155. Sorry, didn't mean to try to browbeat you

It's just that when I hear people say that there is very little difference between Democrats and Republicans I think of Al Gore and George W Bush and wonder what in the world they could be thinking about.

[Sebass1271]

163. thank you!

that was my point and i know for sure that was the point the other member tried to make and mcboy accused her/him of being a homophobic. It is not about me, me, me, or him, him, him.. it's about ALL of us.

We constantly accuse republicans of supporting blindly their war monger candidates for only one issue.. i.e. abortion, religion, anti-gay or whatever that issue of day may be for the religious right.. and look at this guy, his not voting for any of the democrats b/c they have not done anything or not enough in his eyes for his CAUSE.

MAJOR HYPOCRITE.

LET'S PUT ALL OF US FIRST AND VOTE FOR THE PARTY THAT CAN OFFER US REAL DIFFERENCES OF WHAT WE HAVE BEEN LIVING AND EXPERIENCING DURING THE LAST EIGHT YEARS..

and obviously, this is not counting Reagan and Bush Sr. years.

[aquarius dawning]

146. A vote for Mickey Mouse is a vote for real change

Go Mickey!!! Yes You Fucking Can!!!!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

150. How unAmerican of you to think you own your vote instead of the Partry.

“Freedom for supporters of the government only, for members of one party only, no matter how big its membership may be is, no freedom at all. Freedom is always freedom for the man who thinks differently. “
Rosa Luxemburg