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Hillary's tactical blunder re: Florida and Michigan revote

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Alhena Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:17 PM
Original message
Hillary's tactical blunder re: Florida and Michigan revote
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 08:18 PM by Alhena
A few days ago, when asked about potential revotes in Florida and Michigan, Hillary made a significant error, responding as follows:

"I would not accept a caucus," she told us. "I think that would be a great disservice to the 2 million people who turned out and voted. I think that they want their votes counted."

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/03/07/clinton-says-no-to-a-caucus-do-over.html

Why was this an error?

Because Howard Dean made it clear on the Meet The Press this Sunday that Michigan and Florida could submit re-vote plans to the DNC but that *both candidates* would have to feel that the plan was fair for the DNC to approve the plan. Basically, Dean said that either campaign could veto a proposed plan on fairness grounds. Thus, Obama has the *legal* right to veto any revote plan, but before Hillary's statement rejecting a caucus, he might not have had the *political* ability to reject any such plan. In light of Hillary's statement, however, she has set a precedent for unilaterally rejecting a particular re-vote option which she deems unfavorable to her, and Obama has an equal right to do so if he feels a plan is unfavorable to him.

There was no need for Hillary to *publically* reject a caucus- she has numerous political allies in both the Michigan and Florida democratic parties. She had no reason to fear that they would adopt any election method which was adverse to her interests. In fact, the so-called "caucuses" in Michigan are actually just primaries run by the parties- they bear no resemblence to the Western caucuses that Hillary has grown to hate.

That brings us back to the mail-in revote option which is being floated in Florida. As discussed below, it is not in Obama's interests to have any revote in the poisoned political environment which exists for him down there. So he needs arguable bases for opposing mail-in revotes, and fortunately he has them. There have been a number of articles written lately which cast doubt upon the feasibility and fairness of having a mail-in revote on such short notice:

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080308/NEWS/803080384/1146

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rick-hasen/worries-about-a-florida-p_b_90583.html

I'm sure there are other arguments Obama could make, but those are a good start.

If I were Obama, I would also question the basic fairness of conducting a Florida re-vote in the current political climate. There is every reason to think that this election controversy has greatly harmed Obama's popularity in the state. Hillary has been able to cast herself as the heroine looking to have Floridians' votes count, while Obama has been cast as the villain wanting to disenfranchise them. Obama finds himself in this unfortunate political position for doing nothing more than following the DNC's rules. So the notion that we can just start over like nothing ever happened is ridiculous.

If I were Obama, I would commission a poll asking Florida voters whether they have a less favorable opinion of him as a result of this election controversy. No doubt a substantial number of them will answer "yes" and he can present that poll data before the DNC in arguing against the fairness of a re-vote. The simple truth of the matter is that the well has been poisoned for Obama in Florida.

So what should Obama offer to do with regard to the Florida election results in January? I would suggest that he agree to submit the January election results to the delegates at the convention so that they can use their own political judgment in deciding how much weight to assign to them. There clearly was an election in Florida, and Hillary got the most votes. But there was no campaigning, no get out the vote efforts by Obama, and it's thus a matter of political speculation as to how close the election would have been if Obama had campaigned there. Obama can present evidence showing how much ground he made up in the polls in states once he started campaigning there. For example, he almost won Texas after being around 20 points down there at one point.

In my view, the delegates at the convention can decide how much weight to give to the January election, and, as a practical matter, whoever has the support of a majority of the delegates at the convention is going to win, both on this issue and in general. But there's no point in trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again and conduct a revote in what is clearly a poisoned political environment for Obama.

Thanks to Hillary's blunder, Obama now has the political ability to reject any re-vote plan in Florida if one is submitted to the DNC. I think this is a significant fact which has gone largely unnoticed.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Obama can't lose his lead based on FL and MI counts. His best approach would be...
...to state that he'll accept any format that allows FL and MI to participate.

It'll help him with the voters and allow him to maintain the moral high ground
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. True that. if he keeps widening his lead...
he can just 'give' it to her as a consolation prize and then she can't say anything other than 'thank you'...but it won't affect the outcome. I've been saying this for a month but few people listened :-)

Hillary doesn't get that big of a net from florida...maybe 35 delegates, at most. It has to be assumed Michigan's delegates (the undecideds) will vote for Obama. After all, they already had once chance to vote for Hillary and picked 'undecided' instead.
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Alhena Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Big "if" with Pennsylvania coming up
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Penn isn't a big deal
Heck, even if Obama loses Michigan, Florida, and Pennsylvania by the same margin he lost Ohio, he'll still have the Popular Vote by and most pledged delegates both by a very healthy margin (not considering any other states, so the situation is actually even more favorable to him).
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. But screw the MI and FL superdelegates.
They are more important to her than the pledged delegates. There is no way in hell that they should be allowed to participate. Hillary picks up around 60 delegates if the current results stand with the MI uncommitted delegates awarded to Obama. That won't be nearly enough to swing it in her favor. What really pisses me off is the fact that they try to forward the popular vote argument by including the MI primary.
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Alhena Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Disagree- if he tries to be the nice guy at the convention Hillary will kill him
let me revise that- if it's clear that the superdelegates are on his side, then he can seat MI and FL if they won't change the result. But Hillary is going to be out for blood on the convention floor and if he doesn't play hardball back then she's going to eat him alive.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I'm not talking about seating them as things stand....
...I'm suggesting that he can agree to whatever format the states choose and run ads stating that "Hilary Clinton wants to tell you how you can vote...I want to see you represented."
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. He is NOT a nice guy, has proved it again and again. Use your brains.
He says one thing and does another.
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Agreed
Even if he lost them and Pennsylvania by 10% (same margin as Ohio, and this is pretty unlikely), he would still have a healthy lead in the popular vote and pledged delegates.
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Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. If I was Obama, this is what I would do.....
I would say that any system Hillary chooses would be fine, as long as all the super delegates from both states are punished for the misteps of the state party and disqualified.

This does three things,
1. it lowers the amount of delegates needed to win the nomination.

2. Hillary holds wide support among the super delegates in Florida and Michigan, thus widening his lead.

3. It punishes the party members who are responsible for this fiasco in the first place, and it does not disenfranchise the voters.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. Caucuses are non-representational. No one would be surprised if Obama
insisted on having them.

Go ahead and reject a primary, make our day.
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Alhena Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. A primary isn't being offered. A mail-in revote is
Primaries are well established- mail in revotes have never been tried in Florida. Trying to implement one in a hurry can reasonably be criticised.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. The fact remains that if they can get it organized, it will be representational.
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democraticscapegoat Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. hey you
It is called a mail in primary. It cost's alot less, EVERYONE gets a vote(which the obama people dont want) and it would be easier to pull off. Everyone would get a ballot in the mail. Then they could hand count results as they come in.
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revolve Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Um the caucuses in Michigan are just a primary run by the party
They are not like the other caucuses that people are complaining about, so the caucuses in Michigan are just as representational as a primary, maybe if you candidate knew anything about the state she would know this and not be whining to get the delegates seated as they are, that is truly "Un-representational".
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Kokonoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
12. Hillary will veto any plan,
She needs this to be unresolved at the convention.

Any attempt to tamper with MI and FL debacle would most likely be a tie.
She needs monkey wrenches, promises of gold and confused Supers to win.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Another fledgling fantasy author.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
14. He says he will accept what the DNC accepts
I think that's the way to go.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
18. I don't get it.
It doesn't make any sense for Hillary to accept a caucus.
She is not doing well in that format, she does much better with a primary.
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