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Corrupt Clinton Pardons: Marc Rich, Bro Hugh Rodham Getting $400k, Roger Clinton $50k, 2 YRS 4 COKE

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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:25 PM
Original message
Corrupt Clinton Pardons: Marc Rich, Bro Hugh Rodham Getting $400k, Roger Clinton $50k, 2 YRS 4 COKE
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 04:38 PM by Dems Will Win


Let's Not Forget That the Pardons Corruption will be used against Hillary. Her own brother being paid $400,000 to lobby for a Presidential commutation for a cocaine dealer! Hugh Rodham and Roger Clinton also broke the law by not being registered lobbyists and both should have been forced to pay a $50,000 fine.


Hillary 'shocked' over pardon scandal



Hillary Clinton has spoken of her "shock and disappointment" at revelations that her brother received a payment of $400,000 to lobby on behalf of two men pardoned by her husband.

I was very disappointed and saddened by this whole matter

Hillary Clinton

Mrs Clinton told a news conference that she had nothing to do with the issuing of pardons. She said she had not spoken to her brother since the disclosure - and did not want to.

The affair has heightened the outcry over the pardons made on Bill Clinton's last day in office. Separate Senate and federal investigations into the pardons have already begun.

In a statement, the former president said that he and his wife were unaware of the payments made to Hugh Rodham, a Miami attorney and former US Senate candidate.

He said they had asked Mr Rodham to return the money and were "deeply disturbed" by what had happened.

Mr Rodham, who denies wrongdoing, has returned the money, his lawyer said.

Incomplete denial

However, Mr Clinton's statement stopped short of saying that he never discussed the cases with his brother-in-law.

Mr Clinton says he knew nothing of the payments to Hugh Rodham (left)


Mr Rodham reportedly received the payment for months of work in securing a reduced sentence for Carlos Vignali, a convicted drug trafficker, and a pardon for Almon Glenn Braswell, a businessman guilty of fraud.

Vignali himself was said to have been stunned by the commutation of his sentence after he served six years of a 15-year sentence for conspiring to sell 800 lbs (360 kg) of cocaine.

Federal lawyers who prosecuted the original case opposed the presidential clemency.
The Roman Catholic Cardinal of Los Angeles, a sheriff and other community leaders were in favour.

Vignali's father, Horacio Vignali, is a major contributor to Mr Clinton's Democratic Party.

Braswell, described as a Miami businessman, was pardoned for a 1983 mail fraud conviction. He served three years in jail.

His pardon on 20 January has generated particular controversy because it then emerged that he was under investigation in connection with new allegations.

Mr Clinton has said the pardon was only intended to apply to the 1983 conviction, and that he was unaware there was a new investigation under way.

The 140 pardons and 36 commutations granted by Mr Clinton just hours before leaving office have been fiercely criticised by Republicans and Democrats alike.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1183353.stm

February 23, 2001
THE CLINTON PARDONS: THE DEMOCRATS; This Time, Clintons Find Their Support Buckling From Weight of New Woes

By RICHARD L. BERKE

Even the most devoted and vociferous backers of Bill and Hillary Clinton are now refusing to defend their messy exit from the White House and some are openly criticizing their conduct. Many of them said yesterday that the disclosure that Mrs. Clinton's brother Hugh Rodham received nearly $400,000 for helping secure a presidential pardon and a commutation of sentence was the last straw.

Democrats say they fear that the Clintons' persistent troubles not only leave the party with a gaping leadership vacuum, but also with unwanted attention on a former president who is trying to salvage his damaged reputation and a new senator from New York who is trying to find her footing.

...

Behind the scenes, Al Gore has joined the chorus as well. People close to the former vice president, who has exchanged tense words with Mr. Clinton about how the presidential campaign was waged, said that Mr. Gore was unnerved by Mr. Clinton's conduct in his final days in office.

''He's not angry -- he's more shocked,'' said one person who spoke to Mr. Gore recently. ''He is disappointed. He does still care about the president in some ways. But it's certainly not anger. The harm of Clinton's actions to him has been done.''


The anger at Mr. Clinton is particularly striking, given that barely two months ago Democrats around the country had all but turned on Mr. Gore and expressed high hopes that both Clintons would lead their party back to the control of Congress and the White House. Some even talked about Mrs. Clinton's prospects as a presidential candidate in 2004.

Several other of Mr. Clinton's most stalwart defenders expressed concern and bewilderment over his actions. Even Terry McAuliffe, the Democratic Party chairman, who calls Mr. Clinton his best friend, has found it difficult to defend him.

...

And yesterday, in an interview, Mr. McAuliffe seemed to want to change the subject when asked about the pardons, which included that of Marc Rich, the fugitive financier.

''I've publicly said the Rich pardon was a mistake,'' Mr. McAuliffe said. ''If I were president I wouldn't have done it. All these incidents are unfortunate, frustrating and distracting, but ultimately they will run their course.''

...

At a news conference yesterday, Mrs. Clinton, struggling to overcome what she acknowledged was an calamitous Senate debut, did not defend her husband and, in fact, put the burden on him by telling reporters to direct their questions to him or his staff.

Indeed, some Democrats said they were particularly worried that Mrs. Clinton would be tarnished even if she was, as she asserted, ignorant of her brother's efforts related to the pardon and commutation. For now, any talk about her presidential prospects has ground to a halt.

''If this hurts anyone, it hurts Hillary much more,'' said an official at the Democratic National Committee. ''She's been able to separate herself from Clinton. But this reminds people that she is with him -- and it's her brother that did it.''


...

Some of Mrs. Clinton's detractors in the party expressed quiet glee over her predicament, saying they never thought she deserved to be considered a formidable prospect for the White House in 2004.

Tne strategist who is close to both Clintons said, ''A combination of events and circumstances has transpired that has effectively disabled Hillary Clinton from having an effective launch of her Senate career on the terms she had hoped for.''

...

Earlier this week, former President Jimmy Carter ended his reluctance about commenting on Mr. Clinton and said of the pardons, ''In my opinion, it was disgraceful.''
Many Clinton backers who were interviewed criticized his decision to defend his pardon of Mr. Rich in an Op-Ed article in The New York Times.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A05EFDF1339F930A15751C0A9679C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print

Roger Clinton: Following the Money
The former president’s brother is entangled in another pardon scandal

Back to the Pardongate Page

By Mark Hosenball
NEWSWEEK

June 16 — Government investigators trying to untangle the Clinton pardons scandal are taking a hard look at the former president’s half brother, Roger Clinton. Federal prosecutors want to know if he was involved in alleged schemes that promised the possibility of pardons and other favors in exchange for cash fees.

INVESTIGATORS ARE ESPECIALLY interested in Clinton’s alleged dealings with Garland Lincecum, a Texan convicted of investment fraud in 1998. Lincecum’s lawyer, Ed Hayes, told Newsweek his client was looking for a way to avoid prison when a friend, Richard Cayce, suggested he enlist Roger Clinton’s help. Investigators say Cayce, an alternative medicines salesman, claims Clinton was going to help him secure diplomatic passports—which he hoped would impress foreigners. Cayce also says Clinton and two associates, George Locke and Dickey Morton, agreed to get the passports for a fee of $100,000. According to Cayce’s lawyer, Cayce turned over $30,000 cash and wired $70,000 to a company called CLM—which they told him consisted of Clinton, Locke and Morton.

Cayce says he made the cash payment at an August 1998 meeting with the partners at a Dallas airport hotel. Later that day, Cayce says, he introduced Lincecum to Locke and Morton. According to Lincecum’s lawyer, they told Lincecum that Roger would lobby Bill Clinton for a pardon in exchange for $300,000. Roger was not at the meeting, but Lincecum told investigators that at one point Cayce pointed to a man on a balcony and hinted that it was Roger
. Lincecum’s lawyer says his client’s family turned over $235,000 to CLM, including two checks for $100,000 each. Financial records obtained by Newsweek show that days after those payments, Roger Clinton in turn deposited checks from CLM worth $25,500 in his own bank accounts. Government sources with access to CLM’s books say they believe the checks to Clinton were likely drawn from the money the Lincecums gave CLM.

In the end, Cayce never got diplomatic passports. And Lincecum was never pardoned—his name was not even on a list of six names Roger gave the president for consideration. Locke and Morton’s lawyer says his clients have taken the Fifth with the Feds and declined comment. Roger Clinton’s lawyer, Bart Williams, says Roger met with Cayce twice. But Roger denies ever meeting Lincecum or seeking or receiving money for passports or pardons. Clinton’s lawyer says checks he got from CLM were from unrelated deals, but denies Roger was part of the company. That may not be enough for prosecutors. Earlier this month, they brought Lincecum from his Texas prison cell to New York, where he told his tale to a federal grand jury.

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/roger.htm


PLEASE RECOMMEND IF YOU DON'T WANT HUGH RODHAM AND ROGER CLINTON BACK PEDDLING PARDONS
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. And this just reminds people of the downside of a Clinton presidency...
I, for one, am not anxious to relive those days. Bimbos, questionable pardons, lying to a grand jury...these are just the types of diversions that keep anything from getting done.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Exactly
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. People point to Bill's high polls when he left office, but forget about polls a few weeks later
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 06:36 PM by blm
that took a dive and stayed there for the next two years. THAT is what the Dem party was left with just months after Bill's exit.

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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. It's people like you that turned me against Obama.
Keep it up. I wonder how much swiftboaters and 527's and rethugs would pay for all the info you just gave them for free. You sure saved them a lot of money...you ought to get a cut! You blow my mind!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Why? What do you have against facts? Swifts never used facts. Swifts support closed government
just like Clintons and their supporters do.

Swifts want BushInc protected. Clintons protect BushInc. You side with Clintons.

What part of this is so hard to follow? A Dem either sides WITH Open government or AGAINST it. Clintons side with it, and have proven it many times over.

Any citizen who takes their duties seriously should be turned against closed government and anyone, GOP or Dem, who sides with the secrecy and privilege of closed government.

Get real - there is NO ONE from the RW who would further my complaints about the Clintons, as my actual complaints all involve the decades of protection the Clintons have given to the Bushes. Any logical mind would have noticed that easily.
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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. If I drug tested at your work,
I would have had me knee blown off when we tested your urine.
Something so radioactive should only be shared with people of like mind.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #26
45. Nope - just someone who strips the debate down to its most basic reality -
It really is as simple as whether or not a citizen chooses to FIGHT for open government or sits back and ACCEPTS the secrecy and privilege of closed government.

I wonder what type of drugs have been distributed that make even Democrats want to side with closed government? Care to provide some insight into that?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. If you let people here affect your vote the blame is on you, not them.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. It seem to be the way all OB supporters think.
I don't like their political philosophy as it's too rethug in their attacks. I don't like that kind of person. I like fair minder people and I won't vote for those who aren't. Off to FR with you!
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Your post contradicts your claim of fair mindedness.
Off to FR with you!

Why, because I pointed out the stupidity of letting random anonymous people online affect your vote? :shrug:
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. I wasn't talking about random anonymous people online
I'm referring to regulars here who have posted for years. I didn't know they had such faaaaaarrrrrr left philosophy...which I don't like. I'm left of center but not in the other room.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #28
56. This nation was created with the concept of an open government accountable to the people
and now supporting open government and its protectors and fighting AGAINST closed government and its protectors is 'far left' to you?
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Umbram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
62. "I didn't know they had such faaaaaarrrrrr left philosophy"
We are called progressives.

European conservatives would be centrist democrats here in the states. Quite likely you've just drifted off to the right yourself. That's no wonder, as defending Hillary requires one to warm up to some fairly unsavory ideals - oh, like legal cluster bombs and refusing for months at a time to acknowledge complicity in the Iraq War which has cost this planet hundreds of thousands of lives.

But hey, if you want to think that non-Hillary supporters are "faaaaaaarrrr left," so be it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
47. Open government needs to be fought for. You think accepting government is a virtue?
I think rolling over for closed government has been detrimental to our party and especially LETHAL for this nation and the world.

There should never have BEEN a Bush2, 9-11 or this Iraq war, and there are some Dems who have a greater responsibility for those events as the protection of BushInc throughout the 90s directly led to all three.

I have YET to see anyone from the GOP machine dare go down that path.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
48. You need to check BLM's comment history. BLM is first and foremost for open government
and anti-corruption. Obama is a mere ally in that cause. Therefore, I think it is inaccurate to characterize BLM as an "Obama supporter". That barely scratches the surface. But I guess that makes it easier for you to dismiss what BLM has to say, if it can all be reduced down to partisanship in a primary.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
55. That's how I feel about quite a few Hillary supporters
and you are certainly in that number. I also feel that way about several Obama supporters. But then, unlike YOU, I'm not just pretending to be fair minded. Off to FR with you.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. I agree that these posts are unnecessary, but you shouldn't judge Obama by DUers
None of us work for the campaign or represent the Senator in any way shape or form.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
54. It's people like you
that make me :puke:

I've seen your posts. You cheer any slime about Obama, and here you are sanctimonious as hell over this. And if you don't think that the repubs know all this and more, you are delusional.
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MojoMojoMojo Donating Member (579 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. Marc Rich was a Mossad agent pesonally lobbied for by Israeli PM + Mossad head
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. He was also a named figure in BCCI and IranContra. TeamClinton forgot to mention that, eh?
Yep - Dem voters wouldn't have been too happy hearing that Bill pardoned another one of Poppy Bush's operatives for him, would they?
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #22
60. Geez, I am *so* kicking myself for forgetting that
I think when was getting blotto trying to block out the shock of the '00 selection I must have also blocked out memory of how seedy some of the Clinton connections had turned out to be.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #60
64. There's no reason for you to remember that - corpmedia had NO INTEREST in mentioning
the REAL problems with pardoning Rich for his involvements in GHWBush's illegal operations - Clintons AND Bushes needed Rich to be seen merely as a wealthy tax evader. Media pretty much obliged.
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Point taken
Agreed.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
70. Have you heard the story of....
Leo Wanta? This amount of money could save the American economy, and then some. And, to all of those posters who claim that this is only right-wing smearing, why would the right-wing refer to the "Bush-Clinton crime family" and drag the Reagan legacy through the mud?

I do wish that they would use Poppy's term "The New World Order" more instead of "Illuminati," which has more of a long-standing CT air about it. Much of this only came about after the end of the Cold War.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. Poppy Bush used the terms New World Order over 40 times in speeches, but Democrats
who happened to notice are derided. See - we were never supposed to read things like IranContra testimony or BCCI report. We're all supposed to just TRUST that the Clinton - Lieberman wing of the Dem party would NEVER side with BushInc over us.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. Another slam on a Democratic President.
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 04:38 PM by WinkyDink
By you.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. They slammed themselves
Don't forget that Bill actually pardoned the coke dealer and the Gambino family guy after his relatives asked him to do it!!!!!!!!!!
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
43. Bill should have stayed retired, now he has stirred up a hornets nest
and if Billary were the nominee, the democratic party would be sunk.

We will lose congress, and then all the president will be is a figurehead who
cannot get anything done.

The corporate MSM is keeping quiet now because they want the drama of a Clinton regime.

Its a money maker for them to have constant scandals.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #43
57. 'Billary' is RW slime that has no palce on DU
You do yourself no favors.
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. This Obama supporter is not fond of hit pieces.
I am just as tired of seeing them leveled against Senator Obama. I'll be bookmarking this only because the information and links may be useful later. Thank you for that. I'll NOT be using my rec to further slam Senator Clinton or to further infuriate her supporters here in the DU.
c
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. What you said....
I may have to vote for Ms. Clinton though I don't like her.That said, by posting this garbage the OP might just as well phone banked a couple hours for McCain...
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
34. This Obama supporter doesn't like it either
Yes, the corruption of the Clinton White House was a little nauseating, and it's one of the reasons a restoration of the Clintons does not excite me that much. I think I would like Hillary a lot better if Bill did not come with her.

That being said, I don't believe Hillary really had a lot to do with these pardons. She was already serving as a senator by the time they happened. She said that she was not involved, and I believe her, given that it would have been in their interest to make sure she knew nothing about it at that point.

Even though I object to some of the shady dealings of the Clinton Administration, seeing Democrats drudge up the same stuff that was used by Republicans bothers me...it makes even a fierce Obama supporter like me want to defend them just out of habit. And it hits a raw nerve with Clinton supporters, whose help we will need in the fall if we want to get Obama elected.

These pardons have little if anything to do with Hillary's ability to be president, and I don't think we as Obama supporters should be posting this kind of thing here.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #34
49. The Republican Hasidic Community freaking VOTED for her & met with her in the WH!
after Bill pardoned the 4 crooks.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. And this is from the stuff they can't hide. nt
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. Crooked. Always and forever.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. Well, I'm sure as hell not voting for Bill Clinton again.

Thanks for your help.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. Why didn't he pardon Webster Hubbell?
And Marc Rich was an ungrateful coward who still lives in exile. His lawyer is Scooter Libby, by the way.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Because the Prez himself was involved with Hubbell
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. ahhh the swet smell of desperation
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. Very troubling indeed....
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 06:33 PM by Walter Sobchak
And who knows what further favors she owes? It's pretty obvious there's a reason she's not releasing her tax returns.

It's really a shame that only one of our candidates -- Barack Obama -- has been truely vetted.
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Unsane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
14. Original Coke or New Coke?
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
65. Columbian!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #65
76. At that time it would be a sample from the TONS of cheap IranContra cocaine that GHWBush was running
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 11:51 AM by blm
through Arkansas.

Mainly dumped by the tons into black communities all over the country which became a part of the CIA drugrunning story in 1996. Another area where Bill Clinton sided with Poppy Bush's secrecy and privilege and denied the American citizenry the respect the truth would bring.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
17. ahh... memories
It's like reading FreeRepublic in 1999.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Why, did you read it back then?
:yoiks:

:P
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Yes, I did
I enjoy reading right-wing nuttery. Now I don't have to leave DU to do it.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I was kidding with ya.
I know lots of people here try to wade through that mess. I looked at it once and the design alone was enough to drive me away. I never even made it to the craptacular content.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Actually, there's one topic there that's really fun to read....
the evolution/creation threads. They actually have a couple of very science-literate people who debate the creationist nutters very well.

I've actually learned a lot and gotten some great bookmarked sites because of those discussions.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
23. It's dems like you that will help Rethugs win.
And Obamites complain the Hillary is helping Rethugs win by just running for president and saying she has more experience than Obama. (So does McCain). Ferchrissakes...look at yourself in the mirror.

I don't want to ever hear an Obamite make that claim again. You take the cake! Besides...Hillary isn't Bill. Maybe you should take a peek under her skirt.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. There is a difference
I said several times that I don't like this thread, but there is a big difference between stuff DUers do and stuff the candidates and their staff do. If Obama's campaign were pushing the media to run with this, it would be one thing. But you can't compare Clinton herself saying McCain is more qualified to be president than Obama with something an unaffiliated supporter posted on a message board.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:03 PM
Original message
What's wrong with that? She was telling the truth!
How can anyone deny that McCain has more experience than Obama? He has more than Hillary too. If you don't like checking the record...check out his hair!

Can't make Obamites happy. They criticize her for lying and when she tells the truth...they are even more critical of her thruthiness.
How do you satisfy Obamites? :shrug:
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #23
52. She's running on his record, so boo hoo to her -- that means ALL of his record.
She doesn't get the luxury to pick and choose what aspects of the Clinton Administration she wants to run on. Wow, you sure are whining a lot about something that is true. (Freepers are into lies, so the moaning that this is FR material is ridiculous)
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
27. Dems will win - have you sent this to Fox and Limpo yet?
You sure would save them alot of time researching this.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
30. Hillary was shocked! Shocked I tells ya!
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. I find her claims credible in this case
I heard her asked in an interview if she knew about the pardons, and she said she did not. I believe her on this because a) she was already serving in the Senate by the time the 11th hour pardons took place, and b) I would think that Clinton's staff would have made sure she didn't know because it could be damaging to her career. I don't think we can put this one on her.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #37
50. What about the 4 Hasidic criminals? Bill pardons them & the GOP community votes Hillary
and she mets them in the White House.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
33. I don't think this is relevant
Yes, the corruption of the Clinton White House was a little nauseating, and it's one of the reasons a restoration of the Clintons does not excite me that much. I think I would like Hillary a lot better if Bill did not come with her.

That being said, I don't believe Hillary really had a lot to do with these pardons. She was already serving as a senator by the time they happened. She said that she was not involved, and I believe her, given that it would have been in their interest to make sure she knew nothing about it at that point.

Even though I object to some of the shady dealings of the Clinton Administration, seeing Democrats drudge up the same stuff that was used by Republicans bothers me...it makes even a fierce Obama supporter like me want to defend them just out of habit. And it hits a raw nerve with Clinton supporters, whose help we will need in the fall if we want to get Obama elected.

These pardons have little if anything to do with Hillary's ability to be president, and I don't think we as Obama supporters should be posting this kind of thing here.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #33
51. Denise Rich donated huge sums to the Clinton Library. How is that NOT relevant?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #51
74. Jackson Stephens donated, and most DUers have no clue how he infected their lives
and their nation's course.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #33
75. We need the TAX RETURNS, to see who else they will sell out to. Like this:
After Mining Deal, Financier Donated to Clinton

By JO BECKER and DON VAN NATTA Jr.
Published: January 31, 2008
Late on Sept. 6, 2005, a private plane carrying the Canadian mining financier Frank Giustra touched down in Almaty, a ruggedly picturesque city in southeast Kazakhstan. Several hundred miles to the west a fortune awaited: highly coveted deposits of uranium that could fuel nuclear reactors around the world. And Mr. Giustra was in hot pursuit of an exclusive deal to tap them.

Unlike more established competitors, Mr. Giustra was a newcomer to uranium mining in Kazakhstan, a former Soviet republic. But what his fledgling company lacked in experience, it made up for in connections. Accompanying Mr. Giustra on his luxuriously appointed MD-87 jet that day was a former president of the United States, Bill Clinton.

-snip

snip

"Kazakhstan’s president, Nursultan A. Nazarbayev, whose 19-year stranglehold on the country has all but quashed political dissent."

"Mr. Nazarbayev walked away from the table with a propaganda coup, after Mr. Clinton expressed enthusiastic support for the Kazakh leader’s bid to head an international organization that monitors elections and supports democracy."

-snip

Just months after the Kazakh pact was finalized, Mr. Clinton’s charitable foundation received its own windfall: a $31.3 million donation from Mr. Giustra that had remained a secret until he acknowledged it last month. The gift, combined with Mr. Giustra’s more recent and public pledge to give the William J. Clinton Foundation an additional $100 million, secured Mr. Giustra a place in Mr. Clinton’s inner circle, an exclusive club of wealthy entrepreneurs in which friendship with the former president has its privileges.

LINK:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/us/politics/31donor.html

BILL CLINTON -WILLING TO SELL-OUT FOREIGN ELECTION OVERSIGHT FOR A LARGE DONATION!
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DerekJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
38. kick
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DerekJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
39. kick
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TheZug Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
40. This is some of that stuff about the Clinton admin she wasn't involved in--you know, the bad stuff.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
41. Kick
:kick:
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
42. Holy trolly.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
44. Hillary Needs to be "Vetted" as Well. Good Thread.
K&R
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
46. You forgot Bill pardoned 4 Hasidic criminals. Despite usually voting GOP, they all voted Hillary.
and Hillary met with them in the White House.


In January 2001, two months after Clinton’s election to the Senate, President Clinton pardoned four residents of the New Square Hasidic enclave in Rockland County, New York, who had been convicted of defrauding the federal government of $30 million by establishing a fictitious religious school.

Despite a usually conservative voting record, the New Square community had voted 1400 to 12 in favor of Clinton during the election, raising allegations of a promise of clemency in exchange for political support. Hillary Clinton acknowledged sitting in on a post-election meeting discussing possible clemency for the four, but said she had played no part in her husband’s decision.
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
53. Holy smokes I had forgotten about Roger
Looking back on those eight years now, it is beginning to look like the Clinton legacy is not as clear as I'd thought it been; and even so, I knew that it was a bit murky.

That photo of Roger Clinton in cuffs is hilarious--he looks so much like his brother...the low-rent version.

And reading that Vignali himself was stunned that he was pardoned, due to the diligence of Hugh Rodham!

Funny how there was so much dirt that surrounded the Clinton terms that we just took it for granted after a while...at least I did.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
58. When Clinton does it, its OK
It is galling to see folks complain that Obama supporters are "Rethugs" when we mention the highly controversial acts of the Clinton administration that have at least the appearance of impropriety. The same people have no problem with attacks on Obama--after all, he needs to be vetted. Presumably, the same should apply to Senator Clinton.

Who has been behind all that nonsense about Obama's minister? The Clinton campaign should denounce and reject it. Either these attacks are wrong when made against Obama and they are wrong when made against Clinton, or they are right in both cases. At least be consistent.

It's true that Senator Clinton is not her husband, but there's a limit to that argument. If the Clinton campaign wins, we will see many of the same players from President Clinton's administration back in the White House--we know this because many of the same people are active in the campaign. If, on the one hand, we want to count Senator Clinton's experience as the First Lady when it comes to her presidential bid, why are we asked to entirely discount the fact that Bill Clinton will be the First Husband, and will presumably exercise as much (or perhaps more) influence in a Hillary White House as she did in the Bill White House?

I have very little faith in the ability of ANY politician to be entirely ethical and moral in the conduct of their duties. If you want someone who's going to be squeaky clean, you're going to have to get someone who has little experience. President Clinton had a history of giving freebies to the opposition, which was one of the reasons I supported Jackson in 1992 (the other was that Jackson is a liberal, whereas Clinton, as it was already evident in 1992, is not). Back in 1992, we knew all about Bill's zipper problem, about the Flowers affair, and many people ignored it. That didn't work out so well, and was a huge distraction, effectively derailing much of Clinton's agenda. If Senator Clinton is the nominee, I will work like hell for her. But these ethical issues from the Clinton administration should be a red flag for Democrats who actually hope that the next president will be able to make progress on a progressive agenda. Do we really want all the baggage that comes with having a Democrat who has an open marriage in the White House? Do we want someone who is peddling pardons for cash? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, and you must be with the Clinton campaign.
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quantass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
59. k
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indimuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
61. oh my...
desperate much? :popcorn:
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
63. More eyes on this, please
:kick:
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mrJJ Donating Member (657 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
67. Mr Hsu
One of Clinton's liabilities is Norman Hsu... The question is why hasn't the MSM taken a real hard look at Norman Hsu's backround? A con man and thief that had a "meteroric rise on the Democratic political scene". ROFLMAO really? Actually idiot Norman's picture as a youngster appears on an FBI B&W surveillance telephoto picture tagged (unidentified associates) of a NYC street gang tied to Chinese Organized crime based in the US...reference U.S. Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations. Asian Organized Crime (1984,1989, 1993). . Btw Norman did also funnel funds to Sen Barrak Obama's campaign...Interesting tidbit.. who directed Norman too the then freshman Sen Obama? .... ding ding ding... The Clinton's. No one has the history to a certain err element of ready, willing & able philantropists of an asian persuasion then the Clinton's. A walk through recent history may be in order for you youngsters.

Charle Trie
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/op080397.htm

Norman Hsu's Boss Chan Tse-Chiu aka Eddie Chan
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE2D6173AF931A3575AC0A966958260

Norman
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=local&id=5643329

Rendell had said last week he planned to keep nearly $40,000 of Hsu's money even though he was wanted for failing to appear for sentencing after pleading no contest to a felony charge of bilking investors out of $1 million.

"Though Norman is my friend, and remains so, his failure to appear casts a new light on his assertions regarding the original case," Rendell said in a statement before Hsu's arrest Thursday. "As a result, I will follow other elected officials and donate the money he contributed to me to charity."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/07/politics/main3240773.shtml

Reports are that former NY Chinatown Tong leader turned federal Informant Wing Yeung Chan has recently been escorted in and out of his facility by the US Marshall Service... I wonder if Chan Wing is being used to verify anything that Norman has reportedly told the told the US Attorney?
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/1995/10/27/1995-10-27_judge_slaps_ban_on_leader_in.html

Rethugs are close but no Cigar... PRC link is total bull...I'm sure it was added to spice their article.
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12220

A closer look at the political activity of those Hsu donors suggests their contributions to Clinton's presidential campaign did not mark their first donations to the senator from New York. Hsu's donors gave $256,945 to Clinton's senate campaign since 2005, and $40,000 to her political action committee, "Hill Pac" during that period.

Some of that money may have eventually found its way into Clinton's presidential accounts, because she transfered about $10 million from her senate fund into her presidential coffers.

Asked if the campaign was considering returning any of that additional money, campaign spokesman Howard Wolfson said the campaign was not. "We didn't keep track of the contributions in the same way so we do not know which contributions to credit to Mr. Hsu," Wolfson said.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/10/17/mosk_on_hrc.html
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
68. And yet his administration was the cleanest two-term administration of the 20th century.*
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 02:40 PM by Perry Logan
*As measured by the total number of convictions and forced resignations within his administration--a fairly objective measure--Clinton's was the cleanest two-term administration since Teddy Roosevelt.

Kind of mind-blowing, after years of the hostile U.S. press. TRake my advice: you believe any accusation against the Clintons at your peril.

Bill Clinton was also tied with FDR as most popular President of the 20th century--this in spite of a multi-million-dollar smear campaign leveled against him by crazed Clintophobes--who never give up, as this thread proves.
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
69. kick
:kick:
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
71. DU
it's almost like being on Free Republic.
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
73. kick
:kick:
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