I would bet more Obama supporters will refuse to

[cboy4]

support Hillary Clinton if she's the nominee as opposed to the other way around.

Obama supporters seem far more angry with Hillary than Hillary supporters do with Obama. Some are borderline hysterical today.

It's a very hostile room today, despite let's be positive and "let it sink" (copyright 2008). I saw one thread title with Hillary's name spelled: "HiLIARy.

As an Edwards voter, I've always said as far as I know, I'll vote for the nominee, even though I don't trust Obama as far as I can throw him. And OMG, if Richardson is on the ticket...I will really have to motivate myself to support a backstabber like him.

But anyway, I just wonder how many Obama supporters would honestly vote for Hillary in the GE.

It would be highly hypocritical not to, considering Obama supporters are constantly applying the guilt trip that not supporting Obama means a vote for McCain, etc. Right?

So how many Obama supporters would support Hillary if she's the nominee?

Maybe I should write *crickets* ahead of time. LOL

[gateley]

1. I'd vote for her without a second thought. nt

[roguevalley]

170. I bet you would be wrong, cboy4. Some of us don't

like the draft. Someof us have lived with nearly as rotten a pResidents as bush before. However, a lot of the Hillary people tonight are talking about 'planning their vacations on election day'. I hope they enjoy the draft.

[Maven]

2. They're always borderline hysterical. They're like a troupe of human sirens.

They wouldn't be satisfied to rip her campaign to shreds--they'd have to burn it up and stomp on the ashes.

Not only that, every statement they make has to be some grandiose self-righteous declaration that they. simply. will. not. tolerate. the. INJUSTICE. of someone daring to oppose the great, the irrepressible, the once-in-a-lifetime centrist Barack Obama. Not this time! No sir. Never again! Never forget! Or something.

[Arkana]

17. You're suffering from a pretty severe case of projection there.

[Maven]

20. I know you are but what am I?

Is that the best you can come up with?

BTW, I happen to know myself (I'm pretty awesome) and I don't really resort to any of the dramatic, self-important bluster I described in my post. So I'm not sure what you're talking about or even who the hell you are for that matter.

[Arkana]

23. My point was that your post

seems to exemplify the Clinton campaign strategy: Pull whatever bullshit you think you can get away with, then when you get caught accuse your opponent of doing the same.

[Maven]

27. You're not even making sense.

What did I get caught doing exactly? Telling the truth about Team Obama's "swarm and shriek" strategy here on GD-P?

EDIT: I should qualify that. Not all of the Obama supporters participate in the False Indignation Brigade (FIB, for short)--just a core set of true believers.

[Arkana]

30. Yet more projection.

How can you sit there and scream that the Obama folks here are "swarm and shriek" when that's been the modus operandi of the entire Hillary contingent here?

[Maven]

32. Was I screaming?

I don't think I was screaming.

I was describing.

Look at the forum today. How many posts by Clinton supporters do you see declaring they are absolutely THROUGH with Obama, that they've HAD IT! They can't TAKE anymore! It's OFFICIAL! Why doesn't he just drop out, that evil WITCH! He doesn't even deserve to keep his Senate seat! Now who's accusing the other side of their own offenses?

By the way, that high school psych class has served you well my friend.

[AGirl]

98. LMAO, thats so fucking true.

[Forkboy]

106. After today you don't have much room to talk on the hysterical front.

Just sayin'

[AGirl]

107. After today, I still don't give a fuck what you or anyone thinks.

[Forkboy]

110. Well that was clear when you called Obama an "ugly monkey".

They make decaf, you know.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

117. Easy Killa....

:rofl:

[cboy4]

129. See. At least hard core Obama supporters like you can

laugh and not be so angry.

[Forkboy]

136. LOL

Obama thrills me like athlete's foot.

But some people are fun to poke. You know about that theory as well. ;)

[Butch350]

144. Word of advice for this place

"Never Allow Another Man To Control Your Reaction"

[Forkboy]

147. What would be the fun in that?

;)

[knixphan]

172. good advice

[againes654]

104. The important thing here is that

you don't overreact.

[Seabiscuit]

148. They're downright OBAMANNOYING (adj. form of Obamanoid).

[lisa58]

3. I think the young, first timers will probably stay home if...

...they think Hillary got the nomination unfairly. Older voters know they may have to hold their noses and vote anti-McCain no matter who the nominee is. It depends how much time between knowing the nominee and the general election and how much the loser supports the winner.

[LSparkle]

10. I agree with you about the "... got the nomination unfairly"

I think all Obama supporters would have been happy to support Hillary if she HAD won
fairly. Now that it's been revealed that the only way she'll be the nominee is if she
relies heavily on SDs, I can understand the reluctance of Obama's supporters to get
behind her.

[Blue-Jay]

4. Not as dramatic as usual.... I'll give it a 6.5

(And yes, I'm committed to the Democratic nominee in November)

[40ozDonkey]

5. If she works the miracle required, I'll vote for her. nt

[not_too_L8]

6. Actually...

A recent PEW poll shows that 10% of Democrats who support Obama would defect and vote for McCain should Hillary become the candidate. But, a whopping 25% of Democrats who support Hillary would defect and vote for McCain should Obama become the candidate.

http://www.americablog.com/2008/03/25-of-hillary-supporters-would-vote-for.html

[Forkboy]

7. Quarter of Clinton supporters would vote McCain over Obama

Interesting result from a recent survey conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press: If their favored candidate is not the Democratic nominee, a quarter of Hillary Clinton's primary supporters would defect and vote for John McCain in November, while only 10 percent of Barack Obama's supporters would do the same.

This discrepancy seems to be explained by Pew's demographic breakdown of the potential defectors, as the groups most likely to jump are also Clinton's bases of support: "One-in-five white Democrats (20%) say that they will vote for McCain over Obama, double the percentage who say they would switch sides in a Clinton-McCain matchup (10%). Roughly the same number of Democrats age 65 and older say they will vote for McCain if Obama is the party's choice (22%). Obama also suffers more defections among lower income and less educated Democratic voters than does Clinton."

Here's another interesting thing -- the Clinton campaign is promoting this stat, both in an e-mail from spokesman Phil Singer and in an item on its "Delegate Hub" Web site.

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/03/03/pew/

Survey here:

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=1254

[Forkboy]

19. ****CRICKETS*****

:P

[Forkboy]

36. *****CRICKETS*****

:rofl:

[MaraJade]

159. Under the circumstances of the empty suit. . .

I can't blame them. Hillary supporters tend to be older, more experienced people, while
Obamaites are the teenagers and young adults who typically "Know it All." I am a parent of
one such person, and I know how far that gets them. . .

[Kool Kitty]

165. Wow, really.

I support Obama and I'm far from being a teenager or a "know-it-all" young adult. I've been told I don't look my age a couple of times, but... I'm 55. I will vote for whoever wins the Democratic nomination. I have never sat out an election, and I don't intend to start now. I guess I have quite a few more to vote in now, being a teenager and all.

[Forkboy]

166. We've just learned to rationalize to ourselves why we don't chase our dreams anymore.

In my experience (all 40 years of it ;) ) it's often us that acts as if we know it all far more than they do, as your post unwittingly proves. In reality we really know little more than they do, but have learned to fake it better.

I refuse to pass my cynicism down this time around. :shrug:

[mod mom]

8. Tweety gave the stat of 20% who would stay home or vote for someone else last week.

[Mooney]

9. I hear waaaaay more HRC supporters who say they won't vote for Obama

than the other way around. This wouldn't be the first time around here though that I've heard HRC supporters accuse Obama supporters of doing something that they're actually doing themselves.

[Jersey Devil]

11. Payback's a bitch, ain't it?

and Hillary deserves every bit of it!

For the past 3 weeks she's been behind the Wright bullshit and today, in order to deflect the hammering she's taking for snipergate, she finally came out of her little hidey hole, smeared herself with some of the effluent from her campaign cesspool and waded right in with bullshit directly from her lips on Wright.

[cboy4]

41. So is that a "no" on supporting her if she's the nominee?

I'm trying to cut through the hysteria and find out.

[Jersey Devil]

91. It's not a "no"

It's a "fuck no". I'd like to see that selfish weasel kicked out of the Democratic Party for her scorched earth, Tonya Harding Option bullshit.

[cboy4]

93. Okay, but now you aren't able to criticize any Hillary

Clinton supporters who say they won't support Obama if he's the nominee.

Fair is fair.

[Jersey Devil]

95. That's not my game anyway

Do what you want. It's my opinion that Hillary has done a whole bunch more sleazy stuff than anything you could possibly accuse Obama of doing. Personally jumping in the Wright cesspool today, the "patriot" crap from Bill, etc., etc. But of course, that's just my opinion and you are entitled to yours as well. Personally I think Hillary would throw the entire Democratic Party under the bus to get the nomination and she seems to be in the process of doing that right now.

Anyway, your question really is not appropriate right now. Obama supporters are pissed at Hillary and Hillary supporters are just as pissed at Obama. We're in the thick of the battle. When the war is over and everyone has a chance to break out their mess kits (using military jargon here so Hillary supporters will understand) and we can all cozy up to the campfires and get drunk, then sleep it off for a week or two, ask your question again and you'll probably get some different answers.

[cboy4]

119. Why isn't my question appropriate now? I hear lots of

Obama supporters telling Hillary Clinton supporters if they don't support Obama, it's as good as voting for McCain -- that it'll cost us the Supreme Court, that we'll be in Iraq for 100 more years, that we'll lose even more privacy, etc.

I'm not judging people for either supporting or not supporting the nominee.

I'm just looking for consistency and I'm trying to weed out the hypocrites.

Good to hear it's not your game.

Because if it turns out to be your game or anyone else's game, guess what I'll be talking about?

[JVS]

157. Sure he is. The scenario where she is the nominee ain't happening.

So it doesn't matter

[cboy4]

163. I won't let you distract me from seeking the truth and

pointing out the hypocrisy JVS.

Will you support Hillary Clinton is she's the nominee for the Democratic Party?

[TahitiNut]

124. Don't mince words. Say how you really feel.

:rofl: (I'm VERY sympatico.)

[OhioBlue]

12. probably - but it isn't the scenario you describe

The Democrats that have been involved will vote for the Dem nominee.

The new people that were brought into the political process b/c they were motivated for Obama, will likely be a 50:50 call.

You also have a whole lot of people that didn't like Hillary before this election season started and still don't. She didn't do anything to improve her negatives. They're also tired of Republicans. So they would be a toss up.

You also have people that feel the Clintons have run a racist campaign and go against every democratic value that they should promote rather than abuse for their own personal gain.

So, yes, some people that support Obama in the Primary are likely to not vote for Hillary, but it isn't hardcore Dems or even people on this board for the most part.

My family are all swing voters. I can't sell Hillary to them. Her negatives are too high and just got worse over this campaign. They would all vote for Obama if he were the nominee.

[LittleClarkie]

13. Tired of dealing with what is, you've decided to make up a what if

and then flog Obama supporters with it?

How about we deal with the here and now.

[VolcanoJen]

14. If she wins the nomination unfairly, it would be difficult, but I couldn't stomach...

... for the rest of my life, staying home when I could have taken part in repudiating eight years of Bush by voting for the Democratic nominee.

I hope both Hillary and Barack fans will think about this matter long and hard... come November, I really doubt there will be but a handful that couldn't vote for the nominee.

Remember... you're going to have to live with that kind of personal "it's all about me" pissiness for the rest of your lives.

Vote Against McCain. Period.

[Jed Dilligan]

15. People are angry today, quite righteously I think,

at a completely disgusting and indefensible lie that offends the very people she helped send to war, as well as all the millions of Americans who have served in combat, and all of their loved ones. All this to seem like enough of a warrior to be President--as if a President even should be a warrior at all. Yeah, if it comes down to her versus McCrazy I will vote for her, but it will likely be a losing battle for the lesser of two evils like our last election.

[blogslut]

16. It's your money

How much would you like to bet? I'll bet a DU star. Oh, you might want to read the links posted in this thread that show more Clinton peeps will go McCain if she loses.

I will vote for the Democratic nominee - Clinton or Obama.

[cboy4]

72. You seem like one of the more rational Obama supporters

blogslut.

Yes indeed.

[eleny]

18. Hey, we're only human!!!

:evilgrin: :rofl: :nopity:

[guruant]

21. I'm an obama supporter but I'd vote for clinton in a heartbeat

the last thing this country needs is another 4 years of failed bush policies.

[Ned_Devine]

22. I thought recent studies showed the opposite by a pretty wide margin

something like 75-78% of HRC voters as opposed to 52-55% of Obama voters

[sorrybushisfromtexas]

26. Democratic Candidate

Whoever wins. I am a Obama supporter.

[AllentownJake]

24. I'll vote for her

I'll give her money....but after her pastor comment today I will not volunteer for her. I can't lie to people over the phone and at their doors that I like her. I don't. I find her repulsive. But despite how repulsive she is I don't think she has plans to invade Iran. I'll volunteer for the nice woman running for congress against the Repuke in my district.

[tishaLA]

25. I've always said I'd be honored to vote for her

and to work to get her elected. I have to confess, in all frankness, that it is getting harder to hold to that because I haven't admired her tactics recently. But I still haven't reached a breaking point.

[apocalypsehow]

28. Oops! You went and used the word "hysterical" - that makes you a woman-hating sexist.

:sarcasm:

[cboy4]

71. That doesn't answer my question apocalypsehow.

Do I put you down as a "yes" or a "no" to support the nominee if it happens to be Hillary Clinton.

[apocalypsehow]

79. Put me down as a "yes": I've always said I'll vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is.

n/t.

[cboy4]

83. Fair enough.

:thumbsup:

[MaraJade]

"Hysterical" IS

typically used by woman haters. I've heard some of the "YOUTH" following Obama specifically state
that they hate Hillary because, "she sounds like mom." That says a lot for the general disrespect of
MOM and women in general. Figures because the developmental stages of youth demand a certain amount
of rebellion during the "separation" phase.

Only problem is that some people have taken this too far. This hatred between Hillary supporters and
Obamaites is going to destroy the dem party.

[malta blue]

29. I will support the nominee whoever it is. nt

[Kukesa]

38. Exactly my thoughts. n/t

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

31. It all depends on how the nomination is won. If Hill wins the pledged

delegates and the popular vote then yeah, I'd probably vote for her. If there is any whiff of it being stolen, then no I won't.

[cyndensco]

33. It would be REALLY hard to vote for hillary

She was the only candidate I was truly opposed to in the beginning. Not only did she vote to authorize bush's war, she refused to admit it was a mistake. The idea of bush-clinton-bush-clinton made/makes me cringe. Finally, she acted as if she was ENTITLED - it was HER turn, damn anyone in her way.

That was then, BEFORE she started running her hate-filled, desperate, inept campaign. I dislike her more with every passing day.

And please, because Richardson endorsed Obama, he is a backstabber? Just how long and in what capacity do you feel he or anyone else associated with her husband should be indebted to her? I realized her campaign mgrs. were crying foul but I honestly did not think even they really BELIEVED it. I think that argument is absolutely ridiculous. Clinton appointed Richardson Sec of Interior because he was qualified - he did his job and that was that. He does not OWE the Clintons ANYTHING.

If she is the nominee, at this point I cannot IMAGINE voting for her but anything is possible come November...

[KAZ]

34. Depends on which day you ask me. Today? Not a fucking chance..

.. When the reality of a SCOTUS nominee hits me in the face, then yeah. But I absolutely hate her campaign, and those she surrounds herself with.

[cboy4]

64. Well, that's an honest answer....but you realize it

leaves you no room to criticize Hillary supports who won't vote for Obama in the GE.

Right?

[KAZ]

70. Depends on the day, doesn't it.

[Mass]

35. Why do you not post this for Clinton supporters. The polls say they are the ones who would not

vote for him.

Both are stupid if they ever do that, but I am sad to see people I respect post this type of posts. I think these last few weeks will make sure we have a Mccain president and I hope those who have made sure of that will not complain, because this mess is irresponsible.

As for calling Richardson a backstabber, uhm, Hillary is a great backstabber herself and you will vote for her, I imagine and hope.

[cboy4]

59. I'm posting this in response to the hyper-hostile room

today.

Maybe I'll survey Hillary supporters on a day they overwhelm the room with anger.

[Johnny__Motown]

37. Many Obama supporters would not be voting at all if it were not for him....

[bluedawg12]

101. Then let's thank them for the last eight years! Yippie! n/t

[anigbrowl]

39. There have been numerous media polls on this very question, most (all?) of which contradict you.

But of course looking that up might mean actually doing 5 minutes of research. Your thread is little more than flamebait.

[cboy4]

43. Why are you so defensive? It's a simple question.

Will you support Hillary if she's the nominee.

Don't sarcastically direct me to some poll that doesn't tell me what anigbrowl is going to do.

Now is your chance to go on record.

[Forkboy]

52. What if the survey blows your bet out of the water?

:shrug:

I'd ignore it and shift the goalposts too.

[cboy4]

57. I don't really have any money riding on an actual "bet." --

It was used as a figure of speech.

I'm not trying to corner anyone...I'm just trying to find out if we have any hypocrites on our hands.

[Forkboy]

60. You have to ask? It's GD-P!

:D

[cboy4]

74. Good point. LOL

:)

Have you checked out my Barry Bonds animation in the sports room?

My Lord, what a thing of beauty.

[Forkboy]

75. No...on my way!

:)

[democrattotheend]

40. That's not what the polls show

The polls show that more Democrats defect if Obama is the nominee, though Obama does better among independents against McCain than Clinton does. And polls here at DU have shown Clinton supporters far less willing to vote for Obama than the other way around.

[cboy4]

56. I'm interested in how you're going to vote....not what the

polls are saying.

Because I doubt any of those polls include your opinion.

[yewberry]

42. I'll vote for Clinton in the GE, but I'm still seething about a post yesterday.

I haven't posted anything negative, and I will vote Dem no matter what, but I'm really, really angry at some Hillary supporters due to last night's "If it's brown, flush it down" post. To my mind, that's just flat out ban-worthy.

That may account for some of the bad feelings around here today.

[PseudoIntellect]

44. According to the polls, you're wrong.

Maybe according to this website, you're right.

[TheFarseer]

45. I won't

but I'd like to know why Richardson is a backstabber. Not trying to contradict you, just wanting info. (Edwards was my 1st choice too)

[cboy4]

54. Oh, right on about Edwards.....here's my good thread from

yesterday about Richardson.

I explained throughout why I think he's a backstabber.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5241793

[bridgit]

46. While you may be right to some degree, I don't have a problem voting for either one of them...

And I hope McCain is enjoying his little respite from pertinent questions regarding life, death, endless no-bid crony war profiteering i.e. McCain Advisers Lobbied for Europeans to Win Air Force Tanker Deal, lobbyists running his campaign, republican economics, and his own role in failed financial systems past present & future, etc, etc, etc.......

Cause he's going to get his ass chewed off and then handed to him.

[rox63]

47. I will vote for the Dem nominee in November no matter who it is

I'll just be a bit cranky about it if Hillary is the nominee.

[Tribetime]

48. I'm voting for the nominee

[tekisui]

49. I would vote for HIllary in the GE should she be the nominee. Period.

[Heathen57]

50. It will be difficult for me

but I will vote for the Dem candidate because things are too important to let a Repub in for another four years.

However I won't volunteer or send any money to her campaign. I can't push my moral being so far as to actually support such a person.

I can't guarantee about the other 3 voters in my family though.

[Mooney]

51. Here you go, girlfriend.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5255592&mesg_id=5255592

[cboy4]

53. Don't call me girlfriend.

And that poll doesn't tell me whether you will be supporting Hillary Clinton if she's the nominee.

[Mooney]

84. I can only be myself. n/t

[cboy4]

85. I'll put you down as a "no" also.

This means Mooney, you have no license to criticize a single Hillary Clinton supporter who says they won't vote for Obama, if you won't vote for the Democratic nominee either.

[Mooney]

88. I didn't say I wouldn't vote for the nominee.

I also didn't say I would criticize HRC supporters who don't vote for Obama. Nobody is required to vote for him.

[xchrom]

61. that doesn't answer the question, Miss Thing. nt

[merh]

55. I said last night that if she is the nominee I will vote for her.

We can't afford another republican in the white house.

[Medusa]

58. Perhaps it's because our candidate is using a kitchen sink strategy

perhaps it's because our candidate isn't lying his ass off like Clinton.

[cboy4]

62. That doesn't answer my question Mystery2Me...please

attempt again.

[bluedawg12]

102. No your candidate prevaricates. Kitchen sink? WTF? Geez n/t

[boppers]

63. Hillary still has the blood of a million people on her hands.

No apology from her, no admission of guilt, remorse, or shame.

Not a big selling point, for some reason.

[cboy4]

66. So is that a "no?"

Not arguing your point either way.

Just looking for whether you plan on supporting the nominee.

[boppers]

76. If we get a nominee I can believe in, I'll work phones, pound the pavement, drive voters.

I'll campaign quietly, and loudly, I'll work every friend and contact I have to try to get a 50-state landslide. I'll give the maximum allowed, and help others to do the same. I'll be working for every name on the ballot, trying to cement a full lock on all levels of government.

If the party actually nominates somebody for president that I find ethically and morally repugnant, they'll simply get a mark by their names and a trip to the mailbox (Oregon, we vote by mail).

[cboy4]

80. Fair enough.

:thumbsup:

[TexanDem]

65. No, I won't vote for HIllary; but I've said that since bef race began

[knixphan]

67. Oh, I'm an Obama supporter

But seriously, no way do I pull a lever for a non-democrat, that's nuts. Hill would get my vote.

Although I stumbled across a pro-Clinton blog that seems to prove the inverse for some Clinton supporters...somebody talk to this woman, she hates Barack like he was a neocon.
http://www.sugarnspice.typepad.com/

[PatGund]

167. wow

Whole lotta hate in that blog.

Oh, and to answer the OP's question? Assuming she wins fairly and squarely, I'll hold my nose and vote for Sen. Clinton.

If she steals it though, well, my vote may be against Sen. McCain more than for Sen. Clinton. Though I think she would make a great running mate for Sen. McCain.

[NastyRiffraff]

68. Actually, no poll can accurately predict who will defect to McCain

We're in the primary season right now. People are still firmly supporting the candidate of their choice (and contrary to what some Obama supporters say, it's their right to do so). What people say about voting in the GE now often has little or nothing to do with how they'll actually vote in November when it's time to pull that lever, punch that button, etc.

Polls or not, I do agree that here on DU in general Obama supporters tend to be more nasty and angry, and more apt to state they'll never ever vote for Hillary than the opposite side of the coin.

Hopefully, everyone will at least vote for, if not wholeheartedly support, the Democratic nominee in November.

[Greyskye]

69. Of course I'd vote for her in the General

I support Obama over Hillary. However...



Project much? :shrug:

[grantcart]

73. Well she is working hard to make it that way - just ask Bill Richardson

[pilar007]

77. please stop the circular shooting gallery...

Hillary is not the enemy. Obama is not the enemy.

[cboy4]

81. In your opinion. However, not everyone here agrees,

which is why this was a valid question.

[zulchzulu]

78. Obama is the nominee. No need to make a decision about Hillary

Hillary Clinton has about a 4-5% chance of being the nominee. As each day goes by, she loses a fraction more of a chance.

It is over for her. The MSM doesn't want to admit it is over since they love how she is trying to destroy the Democratic Party and thus giving McCain a free pass.

You ask "So how many Obama supporters would support Hillary if she's the nominee?" The nominee of what is the question...and it's not the Democratic nominee for President in 2008.

[cboy4]

82. I will go ahead and put you down as absolutely not

supporting the Democratic nominee, if it turns out to be Hillary Clinton.

That means, zulchzulu, you have no right to whine at any Hillary Clinton supporter who says they will not support Obama, if he ends up the nominee.

Please, by all means, correct me if I'm wrong.

[zulchzulu]

100. Saying Hillary Clinton may be the nominee is like saying dogshit tacos will be popular this summer

Why even ask a question that doesn't merit any possibility.

Would I vote For Hillary Clinton if she's the nominee? Would I be able to fly faster than an F-18 tomorrow morning? Such stupid questions...

[cboy4]

108. You already emphasized you would not support the

Democratic nominee if it turns out to be Hillary Clinton.

No need to go on and on about it from your end.

[jgraz]

112. Unfair assessment. The nomination contest is over.

Suppose Hillary was in Obama's spot right now. Would you support Obama if he somehow managed to maneuver the nomination away from the person who rightfully won it? Of course you wouldn't.

[cboy4]

120. Well jgraz...what about the Supreme Court, what about 100

more years in Iraq, privacy, health care, etc.

Are you now going on record as saying you won't support the Democratic nominee?

[jgraz]

122. Nope, I will absolutely support the Democratic nominee

Especially now that it's clear that Hillary will not be the nominee.

And, now that you mention it, isn't it ironic that so many of Hillary's supporters continue to push her candidacy when every day she stays in makes it more likely that the doomsday scenarios you cite will come true?

[cboy4]

126. Oh jgraz....you sound like Scott McClellan at the podium,

always side-stepping the question and making up your own answer to suit your needs.

You have fun with that.

But you're on record as not supporting the Democratic nominee, no matter who it is.

And that's all that's important for the purpose of this thread.

[jgraz]

132. OK, I will also vote for a pink unicorn if it wins the nomination

Happy? Why are you asking for loyalty oaths for something that will never come to pass?

If Hillary had legitimately won the nomination, I would certainly have voted for her. You are basically asking people if they would support the theft of the nomination through smears and lies and then comparing them to Clinton supporters who lost fair-and-square and now want to pout.

[cboy4]

137. No, I am not happy Scott.

:thumbsdown:

[jgraz]

139. See my question below.

[jgraz]

109. Actually, I'd probably vote for the dogshit taco at this point

She's lost the nomination and she's lost any shred of dignity and self-respect. I was perfectly willing to vote for whomever won the nomination, even if it was Hillary. But it's not Hillary, so these what-ifs are pointless.

[cboy4]

121. You want it both ways. You demand that Hillary Clinton

supporters vote for Obama, yet you refuse if it's the other way around.

See, this is what I was trying to uncover.

[jgraz]

125. There is no "other way around". The two situations are not equivalent.

Back before Iowa, you would have had a point. Now, it seems as if you're trying to spin this that both candidates have a legitimate claim to the nomination. Nothing could be further from the truth.

If Hillary is going to press her current "elections don't count" meme, I hope that some of the other candidates un-suspend their campaign and start competing for delegates. After all, John Edwards and Joe Biden have as much of a claim to this nomination as Hillary does. More so, since after Hillary's Tuzla debacle, just about any Democrat is more electable than she is.

[cboy4]

128. Yea, since I voted for Edwards, I wish he would too.

P.S. Just answer the question.

[jgraz]

135. Your question is meaningless, since there is no way for Hillary to actually "win" the nomination

[cboy4]

140. The Super Delegates could still come into play, and

therefore, she would win the nomination per the rules.

So now that you know that, will you support her if she's the nominee?

[jgraz]

142. They could also nominate Alan Keyes "per the rules". Would you vote for him?

[cboy4]

146. Check out the photograph of the strawman I posted

below.

Because, as you know, there are only two possibilities.

Obama or Clinton.

Not Keyes, or Capt. Kangaroo or David Letterman...

[jgraz]

150. Actually, there's only one possibility. All the rest are equally likely.

[cboy4]

152. LOL. Why are you so stubborn?

The Super Delegates could select Hillary Clinton.

Likely? No

Possible? Anything is possible.

Therefore, would you vote for Hillary Clinton if, by miracle, she's the nominee.

See, I threw in "miracle" to help you with you answer.

Yes or No?

[jgraz]

156. If anything is possible, then anyone could be nominated

What you're really asking is, if by some (likely tragic) turn of events, Obama is not the nominee, would you support whomever is selected?

The answer to that is "yes".

If, on the other hand, the Democratic party casts aside the legitimate results of the primary process and somehow decides to commit political suicide... well, that's a different question entirely.

What I'd like to see you acknowledge is this: refusing the participate in an illegitimate process is not the same as simply refusing to support the nominee because your guy didn't win. If Hillary had won the nomination legitimately, I would have supported her. If there is still a legitimate way for her to win the nomination, I will still -- very very reluctantly -- support her.

And since I know you're going to ask: barring a significant implosion by Obama (e.g. making up a story about sniper fire) there is no legitimate way that the super delegates can hand this nomination to Hillary. None whatsoever.

[cboy4]

161. jgraz, don't blame me for what you call an illegitimate

process.

Those are the rules.

So don't blame me. If the person I voted for was still in the race, and he "lost" because the Super Delegates overrode the will of the people, I'd be furious.

But those are the rules.

But I've already said I planned on supporting the nominee.

There's a lot of inconsistency and hypocrisy from some Obama supporters who say they refuse to support Hillary but expect Hillary's people to support Obama.

And that's what I'm trying to uncover.

Does that make sense?

[jgraz]

164. No, it does not make sense. The two situations are not equivalent

If Hillary and Obama still had equal shots at the nomination, then the situations would be equivalent. But even Hillary's people acknowledge that she has only a 5% chance of getting the nomination.

A fairer question would be to ask Obama people this: If Hillary had won the nomination, would you be supporting her.

And to that I can say emphatically "yes". I'll even go one step further: if the positions of the candidates were exactly reversed, I would be calling for Obama to drop out so we could unify behind the inevitable nominee.

And so would you.

[cboy4]

168. No, it's not a fairer question because it's easy for angry

Obama supporters to say, "yea, yea, whatever, sure, I'd vote for her," knowing Obama is going to win.

I want to know if the angry Obama supporters I saw in the forum today would support her if she ends up the nominee.

You're one of the few people fighting me about the premise.

I'm getting answers from people.

Just tell me you hate Hillary Clinton and you won't vote for her under any circumstances.

It'll make you feel better, and it will complete my work in this thread.

[jgraz]

169. I simply refuse to accept your framing of the question

It seems like another attempt to paint the two situations as equivalent when, in fact, Obama has won and Clinton has lost.

There are several circumstances under which I would vote for Hillary. Seeing her steal the nomination through lies and race-baiting is not one of them.

[knight_of_the_star]

175. Fail

[IsItJustMe]

86. That goes for me. I can't vote for McCain, cause he has got a hammer (the American military)

and everything looks like nails to him. I can't vote for Hillary cause I honestly feel she is not truthful and has no character. I may just have to sit this one out.

My gut tells me Obama would be a great president, if the American people can see past their ignorance.

[IndianaJones]

87. nothing a concert for homophobes couldn't "cure" up real quick. that'll bring 'em over. nt.

[Kurovski]

89. I'll be voting Dem for president.

[mckeown1128]

90. Why is Richardson a backstabber???? nt

[cboy4]

92. Oh, I discussed this in great detail yesterday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5241793

[mckeown1128]

94. I thought the election was about who would be the better

president... not who has more a buddies around washington. Are you suggesting that Richardson should give Hillary his vote just because Hillary's husband gave him a job serving the american people. Why can't Richardson endorse who he thinks will be the best president??????????????????????

[bluedawg12]

103. Richardson can support who ever. We'll see if he get's quid pro quo? n/t

[cboy4]

113. No, it has to do with loyalty. If it weren't for the Clintons,

Richardson wouldn't have all of the experience he bragged about during the debates.

Because let's be honest... the Clintons gave him those jobs with the administration, certainly bypassing dozens of other candidates who were just as qualified I'm sure.

Now, if I thought Richardson was simply supporting the best candidate, maybe that would be one thing.

But he clearly jumped over to the Obama camp because he thinks Obama has the best shot of winning the nominee.

Why is that important?

Because Richardson depends on presidents to hand him jobs with administrations.

And Richardson is hoping he gets a job with the Obama Administration.

So he threw Hillary under the bus because he had no use for her anymore.

That's what's going on, if you ask me.

[mckeown1128]

151. wild speculation... no proof....

I would love to see any link you have showing proof of Richardson endorsing Obama just to get a job.


Ohh and by the way... Bill Clinton gave him a job, not "the Clintons" as you put it. Typical Clinton supporter.. you can't even tell the difference between the two. It really does illustrate the problem I have with Hillary's candidacy. It seems people only want her to be president because they think they will have "the Clintons" like they had "the Clintons" in the 90's.... Try not to get their resumes mixed up again.

[cboy4]

153. Yea, I shouldn't have used "Clintons." You're right....but

since I'm not a Hillary Clinton supporter, "typical" or not, I lumped them together.

Again, I have no idea what you're talking about regarding the 90's, etc.

I voted for John Edwards.

And yea, it's just so far-fetched thinking Richardson would be sucking up to Obama for a job. LOL

Try not to get me mixed up as a Clinton supporter again.

[mckeown1128]

155. Well, there are only two candidates left....

and when you bash an honorable man like Richardson because he endorsed Obama... don't be surprised if people think you are another hillbot.

[Maven]

178. Agree 100%

[jgraz]

105. And every detail was wrong

All Richardson ever owed the Clintons was the service he gave during Bill's administration. What the Clintons owed him was the respect any reasonable human being would give a long-time colleague. Richardson fulfilled his part of the bargain, the Clintons failed miserably on their end.

[TLM]

96. I'm real close....

If hillary actually won, by getting more votes, more delegates, more states... etc. I'd vote for her.

If she gets the nomination by launching an all out slime attack on Obama, blaming him for FL and MI, harming the party and swinging some backroom deal with insider super delegates that will disenfranchise and drive off all the young and minority voters for another decade or more... then I may not vote for her.

If the party doesn't step up and put a stop to this, I may well leave the party too and go indi.


I'm disgusted by Hillary's lies about her experience from Ireland to NAFTA, to the sniper crap... she's lying over and over and over again. And not just exaggerations but flat out calculated fabrications. I know every politician paints themselves in the best light, often resorting to exaggeration and hype, but these comments have been calculated and clearly intended to try and spin Hillary as having genuine foreign policy, military, and leadership experience that she simply DOES NOT HAVE. When called on her clear and easily proven pile of lies, she first repeats her calculated lie insisting her memory is clear, then when presented with the video and accounts from reporters who were there, she flip flops and says oops I'm only human I make mistakes, then attacks obama trying to reinvigorate the Write BS.

Meanwhile Bill is out blaming "the other side" you know the side that doesn't love america, as being responsible for FL and MI delegates not being counted. Hillary didn't care about MI or FL when she didn't think she needed them to win, but now that she can't win without them, she flip flops again, and is for counting them. It is transparent and disgusting. And blaming Obama for what FL and MI voted to do on their own, which broke party rules... he did not make the rules, change the rules, or cause the rules of the party to be broken. It is a baseless cheapshot.

I want nothing more to do with the Clintons... and I certainly don't want them representing me or leading me. At this point a choice between hillary and mccain seems like the choice between getting punched in the face or kicked in the nuts. I may just stay home.


And it isn't because of some cult or hero worship of Obama. I'm just sick of Hillary's cynical crap, and selfish willingness to win at all costs... last time this same crap cost us the congress for a decade. Hillary makes it clear that it is all about her gaining power, even if it means crashing the party, driving off 10 years worth of grassroots organization, and alienating new voters.

I like obama, I find him inspiring, and he clearly can motivate people in massive numbers... but either one of them will easily beat mccain. With hillary or mccain, you wind up with the same core group of power players pulling the strings in DC... Obama is something different. I do not think he's perfect, but i think he'll do a fine job. He represents a real change in american politics, a real change in who is beholden to what lobbyist or special interest or corporate partner.

More of the same or less of the same... isn't a choice, it's a serving size. I want a change... a real change.

[quiller4]

97. If Clinton gets the nomination I'll vote for her

but I will not do so with any enthusiasm.

I, too, started out an Edwards supporter. The campaign tactics the Clintons employ remind me of all that I dislike about politics. I'm speaking not just about the recent tactics employed in Hilary Clinton's campaign. Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign disgusted me, too. I'm a life-long Democrat. There is no way I'd ever vote for a Republican but I have a very hard time voting for a Clinton.

[better tomorrow]

99. Not me. I won't vote for her.

[cboy4]

115. Okay...well, if Obama loses the General Election, you

don't get to blame a single Hillary Clinton supporter who said they stayed home.

Because you would do the same thing!

Honesty is so refreshing.

[better tomorrow]

118. who said I would stay home....I will write in Obama's name

:rofl: And, besides, I am an Independent so I have nothing to lose. For now, I support Barack. I don't HAVE to support Hillary.....How's that for honesty?

[cboy4]

123. Writing in Obama's name would be the same as staying

home if Hillary Clinton is the nominee.

Not sure what's so ROFL about what you said.

And of course you don't have to support Hillary.

But you don't get to criticize those who decide not to support Obama.

Simple.

[better tomorrow]

130. so, you own this board? people like you make me want to vote McCain

but I never would. Peace boy.

[cboy4]

141. Hey, don't lash out at me because I pinned you into a

corner with your ambivalent nonsense.

I'm saying if you only support the Democratic nominee that you like, then you cannot in good conscious criticize those who only support the Democratic nominee that they like.

And be careful what you say about voting for McCain.

You were only a word or so off from forcing me to have you tombstoned for supporting a Republican.

[better tomorrow]

145. you missed it...I AM AN INDEPENDENT.....

so I don't think I am disloyal for criticizing the "other" Democratic nominee. I'm not lashing anymore. It is your thread....but, not your board. Last post here from me (in this thread only) so you can enjoy your spot in the sun.

Again, the key word is INDEPENDENT as registered on my voter ID card....

[grace0418]

114. I will vote for the nominee, period. Full stop.

I will do it with a heavy heart if it's Hillary, but I'll do it.

[hulka38]

116. Fortunately we won't have to support Hillary to get a Democrat in office

[cboy4]

131. That doesn't answer the question. Please attempt again

hulka38.

[U4ikLefty]

127. Better watch out DUers because cboy4 is making a list.

:rofl:

[better tomorrow]

133. and checking it TWICE.....

:rofl:

[cboy4]

134. LOL....no, no. No list, I swear. -- But I'll remember the

hypocrites.

That's the only purpose of this thread....to see who wants to have it both ways.

[jgraz]

138. OK, if you're looking for hypocrites, answer me this

Let's say the Democrats end up nominating Alan Keyes this year. Would you vote for him?

[cboy4]

143. ......

Know what I'm sayin'?

[jgraz]

149. You're mixing up your logic buzzwords. It's called reductio ad absurdum

A straw man is where someone mischaracterizes your argument and then argues against the mischaracterization. Reductio ad absurdum is where someone takes your assertions to a logical conclusion in order to show how silly they are.

The distinction is subtle, but important.


Consider the Alan Keys hypothetical and you'll have the answer you seek.

[cboy4]

154. You should really consider changing your screen name to

Reductio ad absurdum.

It's perfect.

[MaraJade]

158. Not so. . .

A lot of independents and repukes have switched parties to support Hillary. That support will completely die
if Obama is nominee.

[Seabiscuit]

160. Your bet may be just right:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5260962

[cboy4]

162. Oh my. See!

:wow:

[my3boyz]

171. Hell will freeze over before I vote for her! nt

[Mike03]

173. Your guess is mine too, but as an Obama supporter, I would vote for Hillary without

even blinking if she's the nominee.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

174. In a way, you're right.

I'm quite sure that 100% of Obama supporters will not be voting for Hillary Clinton in the GE.

[roseBudd]

176. Not refuse just go back to not a participant in elections, voting African Americans on the other

hand will probably be really pissed off.

One could point out that they have been loyally voting for every white face with a D after their names since the early 60s. I cannot imagine how used they would feel if superdelegates handed it to the white woman over the black guy.

For the record many white women have it pretty good since they are the ones for the most part that get to marry the rich white guys. Or they are sometimes just born to the rich white guys.

[slick8790]

177. If the people legitimately select her as the candidate, I'll support her with all I have.

Meaning: More PDs and Pop vote than her opponent.

Otherwise, she and the democratic party can kiss my ass.