Where in the World is Howard Dean?

[CharlesGroce]

I never thought I'd be asking such a question, but the results of the AP poll which was conducted recently that concluded that South Paul John Edwards ought to be the Democratic Vice Presidential Candidate required that I come to the defense of the Ivy-league antiwar candidate who condoned retaining a force of 80,000 in Iraq, back in the day, last year, when the logistics were still discussed about rather then resigned to.

So the poll of this discussion didn't include Howard Dean. It did include Iowa Governor Tom Vilsack, known for his last minute endorsement of the Senator he may later be employed by, civil liberties and labor sell-out Dick Gephardt, and Captain wha? Wes Clark. Me, I was disappointed the options didn't include Dennis Kucinich, but then you and I weren't even given that option in the primary process to choose him as our candidate because of the media process, nor did you have the democratic interest in selecting him on your own, superseceding the media though you may have completely agreed with his views (oh well you fucked up because of your inside-the-box-edness America, and I fucked up because I didn't kick your ass and make you see and believe!).

Anyway, beyond that, did you notice that Howard Dean was not an option, and you need to ask that, if you didn't, and you need to decide whether or not you agree with the constitution, which will require that you read it, and you need to decide what kind of country you want: one that represents you and your interests, or one that is so disconnected from you and what you believe that you have a sense of constant disconnectedness between what you believe as truth and what you see as some vague definition of national morality. Do you think that you have absolutely no sway in the constant discussion of public opinion, or do you believe that it's your turn to speak, that people like Sean Hannity, ahem, Rupert Murdoch have had their say and evolution deems them dust in the wind, and that it's your turn!? Then speak up!

Others keep quite and enjoy the ride.

So notice that Howard Dean was not an option for the VP slot, and join us, those who haven't been rubbing shit in our eyes the last year or so, and let's change America.

[mzmolly]

1. I asked the same question. Dean and Kucinich could both add to the

ticket in ways the others can't.

However, Dean's support *phenominal* as is/was, merits real consideration. Especially with Nader as an issue now.

[Lestat]

2. Thankfully not around.

[CharlesGroce]

4. First

Anne Rice is a shitty writer, I stopped at Queen of the Damned, which I conluded was some vacation of hers and not an actual genuine exlporation of the human interests of beauty and immortality...

[Lestat]

5. And were you just trying to slam me...?

You need a few more lessons pal.

[CharlesGroce]

8. no

just your sense of literature. Anne Rice lives in vacation land. Her father is probably a publisher. She's the literary version of Alanis Morrisette.

Check out "One Hundred Years of Solitude" by Gabrial Garcia-Marquez!

[MercutioATC]

20. That's known as an opinion. Lestat's (and mine) differ.

What in the world does Anne Rice have to do with Howard Dean?

(BTW, I DO take issue with Lestat's slap at Dean, but it's no reason to attack his "sense of literature")

[Ediacara]

3. I love Howard Dean

But there are probably two very good reasons why Dean was excluded:

1) It seems that at best, Dean and Kerry highly dislike eachother, and probably hate eachother on a personal level.

2) Aside from the fact Dean gives no geographic advantage and is from a state a Democratic ham sandwich would win, two New England liberals is an electoral disaster.

If Dean was from Arkansas however.... then I think they'd be able to get over point #1 and learn to love eachother.

[CharlesGroce]

6. And your second...

The reason Dean was excluded was because the corporate media, and the corporate corporate interests they represent want to tell the corporate candidate John "Korporate" Kerry that the antiwar movement has no right being represented in America, which happens also to be antiwar. No other strategy, these fuckers are trying to dictate to American culture what the options are, as they have from the beginning. Consider the truth please!

[Lestat]

7. Dean was excluded because...

nobody liked him. He changed his mind on a lot of stuff. He was a very angry man. He was just a total nutcase.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MontecitoDem]

19. I like how you are able to completely

write off anybody that disagrees with you. Must feel pretty good being right all the time.

[Ediacara]

10. LOL

So says the advertiser of the crappiest fiction ever produced in the English language.....

When you have a point backed up by data, feel free to rejoin the conversation.

[CharlesGroce]

11. How pointed of you

I thought I CREATED the conversation and was on topic, but if you think otherwise, maybe you should stop watching TV at the same time that you surf the internet.

[Ediacara]

13. I think you misunderstood

I was not replying to you, but to the poster who called Dean and angry mean flip-flopper.

[Lestat]

30. This coming from a guy with the SN

"DinoBoy." :eyes:

[Ediacara]

36. Thanks :-)

So did you have a point? Or just bitter bitching?

[madfloridian]

14. You have issues with him, I see.

Yes, you have issues. OH, yes.

No sense in arguing with such an angry person, is there?

So, I won't.

[Lestat]

31. Why do you guys hang onto a loser like Dean?

Face it...he's done. Over with. Finished. Move on.

It's about time Dean fans move on. They should focus more of their time helping out Kerry than wondering about Dean.

[mzmolly]

34. Im not a FAN I'm a SUPPORTER.

There is a difference.

I also contributed to the 500K Dean and his supporters raised for Kerry in one afternoon. Don't assume Dean SUPPORTERS aren't helping out Kerry simply because many would like to see him as VP.

[Lestat]

37. Well...with Dean as the VP candidate...

say goodbye to Kerry's chances and hello to another four years of W.

[mzmolly]

42. So says you... which is one reason I totally disregard the statement.

*yawn*

[Cheswick2.0]

38. why should they do that?

There are plenty of people running for office who aren't Kerry. They are need help and money. It is more important to take back the house and/or the senate than to elect Kerry. He won't change much, but a majority in the house and senate will.

[Kipepeo]

40. How old are you?

I don't know about you but I don't consider myself a "fan" of any political candidate...supporter, yes. Fan...no. Plus your manner of barking rude but meaningless orders at people is boring.

[CTLawGuy]

27. hey, he won Vermont

even after he dropped out, and that's where he was reelected 5 times as governor. Also his 40 million dollars came from somewhere. he sure didn't get it by mortgaging one of his mansions....

[Kipepeo]

39. angry man?

Thanks for repeating rethug slander.

[mzmolly]

43. Bitter Retugs repeat Rethug slander don't they?

;) Hey, they're about to lose the election, they're getting *punchy* :shrug:

[Ediacara]

12. I never meant to imply that the media didn't want people to believe....

...that the anti-war movement was full of crazy people, they do. But had the fortunes of Dean and Kerry been reversed, Kerry would NEVER have been considered as a VP choice for Dean because of geographical "New England liberals" reasons. If Dean wanted a moderate sounding charismatic VP with possibly some military experience, he would choose Edwards or Clark because they're from North Carolina and Arkansas respectively.

For the same reasons, Kerry will NOT consider anyone from New England, be the Dean, Jeffords, Leahy, Dodd, Lieberman, or Shaheen, for purely geographical reasons.

[MontecitoDem]

21. clark was against the Iraq war,

although you obviously couldn't call him "anti-war" being a General and all! But at least there is one in there who called it from the beginning.

And I thought Dean (and others) was excluded because they only polled VP candidates who have been officially vetted by the Kerry campaign. So your argument is with the Kerry campaign on this one, I believe.

[Still_Loves_John]

33. Oh please

I'm so sick of this "The media killed Howard Dean" conspiracy. Every news outlet in the country treated Dean like he was a shoo in for the nomination, he recieved nothing but good press until he actually lost Iowa. And Iowa is the primary that is famous for being so grassroots. Howard Dean lost despite huge media attention, and John Kerry won through grassroots campaigning.

But I don't even know why I'm lowering myself to debating someone who uses words like "Korporate."

[madfloridian]

15. Clinton and Gore were both from the South.

That worked pretty good. I think Dean and Kerry are getting along pretty good now. Not VP good, the party would never permit it. But Kerry likes the money Dean brings in through bats and house parties.

[Ediacara]

16. Clinton and Gore did work good

I don't like the strangle-hold that the South has American politics, but unfortunately, it's a reality. Two New Englanders won't work, two southerners did. I'm not saying it's right, but it's the reality we live in.

And ya, I agree, they DO seem to be getting along better now.

[LastRobot]

17. BULLSH*T

1) Where did you get this? I recall hearing they got along very well on a personal level. All because Kerry muttered "Dean, dean, dean..."? That was Kerry complaining about the media -- and rightfully so. I really hate this lie that keeps going around that Kerry and Dean don't like each other. In fact, apparently all of the Dems running appeared to like Dean the most. Why? He's a likeable guy. You can BET Howard will be involved with the Kerry administration in some way or head of the DNC by this time next year.

2) True, the geographical thing is always an important consideration.

[Ediacara]

18. I hope I'm wrong

I got it from news media, and from the very real interaction between the two before and during the primaries. They didn't like eachother, and it was plain as day.

If I'm wrong, I'm sorry, I certainly hope I am, but they sure as hell didn't act friendly AT ALL.

[Borgnine]

22. For what it's worth...

...I've read stories that have said that they've become close over the last few months, and have put their primary rivalry behind them. Dean is dedicated to getting Bush out of office, and perhaps Kerry is a bit taken with what a gracious loser he is.

[bklyncowgirl]

23. Reports are they've become pretty close, actually

From what I've heard they were quite buddy-buddy in Seattle a few weeks ago. Kind of an "Odd Couple" relationship.

Personally I'd love to see it but Dean's obviously a polarizing figure. I don't know whether getting a few Nader voters would be worth the risk of pissing off the DLC or worse yet the corporate media giants that Dean once said he'd like to break up.

On the other hand, none of the other guys being considered is perfect either.

[emulatorloo]

24. From what I read in WSJ last week, Dean and Kerry have "bonded"

and are great friends now. . .once advanced search is up you can probably find it. There have been great pictures of the two of them playing cards.

You are right, two New Englanders is a No Go.

I think there is another place for Dean in the Kerry Admin.

[sandnsea]

25. The primaries are OVER

When is everybody going to let go of all the political gamesmanship of the primaries. Do you seriously believe every single word that came out of your candidate's mouths as gospel truth? The difference between Dean & Kerry's current views and policies are slim. If they can chalk up all the primary garbage to primary garbage, why can't everybody else. Two New England liberals would be an electoral disaster. TWO NEW ENGLAND LIBERALS. Now let's focus on that truth and put the rest of the garbage in the trash and get it the hell out of this election.

And, one more thing, Dennis Kucinich had as much of a chance to win the primary as anybody else. He was in every single debate, got equal time on Iowa's public service broadcasting, got to tour the state and meet the people; just like every other candidate. Democrats said NO. That's the reality of it and it's time for some to accept it.

[JI7]

32. and the caucus system

also gave voters a chance to influence other voters and make the case for why people should switch their vote to another candidate in the second final round of voting.

[Cocoa]

26. I had the option of voting for Kucinich

didn't you?

How did the media keep you from voting for him?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. I don't know why you keep trying to introduce facts into the disussion.

It doesn't seem that reality is really relevant to this particular debate.

[RogueTrooper]

29. Dean removed himself from the consideration

he said that he would advise Kerry against picking him because of the geography.

[pinto]

35. It was an AP poll. AP doesn't choose the VP candidate. AP wrote your

choices out of their their poll.

Whether Kerry has considered Dean or Kucinich is a question you ought to ask of him, y'know?

[cosmokramer]

41. Who cares?